Making an indestructible murder machine

[Zahhak]

So, here's the basic situation: I have a level 20 wizard turned lich BBEG that I want to make indestructible and a murder machine to punish a PC.

Explanation: I sent a party member a link to a comment on Reddit that suggested very publicly killing the Tarrasque by putting it's soul in a gem via the Trap the Soul spell, then become a lich and very publicly use that gem as your phylactery, then do whatever you want as long as you cause less damage then the Tarrasque would. He insisted that a level 15 ranger/rogue could easily sneak in, kill the lich in 3-4 shots and destroy the gem. I referenced this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13076453#post13076453) by Emperor Trippy (via Slippery Chicken) and he dismissed it. Now, I'm building a level 20 wizard turned lich just to show him up.

And I don't have much experience with arcane casters, and no experience with high level characters, so I was looking for some input.

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you want just the Lich or the Lich and all of the ancillary defenses that his abilities make possible?

And is this 20 levels + Lich or an ECL 20 Lich?

Oh yes, and does it have to be Wizard 20 or just cast as a Wizard 20?

[Hamste]

There is not much you can do that can screw this up unless if your player is a very good optimizer. Rogues sneak attacks don't normally do anything to undead (keep an eye out though, as there is a rogue ACF and a spell called grave strike that can bypass this) and that is one of the big things for rogues. I would suggest looking into some wizard optimization guides as well.

Some suggestions:
Do not forget to prepare the classic stop things spells (mind blabk for example) and have a ton of undead with good spot checks. Even if you only spot someone on a 20 (of course it is possible for them to be impossible to spot at all) with 20 undead you have a 50-50 chance of spotting them each turn.

Foresight plus time stop to buff and lay down the long lasting area debuffs. Don't forget contingency spell and craft contingency are your friends. Give delicate disks filled with low level (below 5th) area debuffs that don't affect undead, buffs that do affect undead and area of effect attacks that don't affect undead. At 200 gp a disk they are a steal and it is reasonable for your lich to have a lot. When combat starts have them break all the plates at once for some nice mass chaos. Keep in mind anti magic fields are a thing even for a non caster.

This advice of course assumes wizard 20 casting and no other classes. Otherwise I would suggest going in Iot7V and just laugh at his futile attempts to hurt you. Also watch for umd things like disintegrate that are save or die and actually force a fortitude check.

[Zahhak]

Do you want just the Lich or the Lich and all of the ancillary defenses that his abilities make possible?

I want a Lich that will make a party member cry. Give me your worst.


And is this 20 levels + Lich or an ECL 20 Lich?

20+Lich


Oh yes, and does it have to be Wizard 20 or just cast as a Wizard 20?

I have no significant preference. My thinking/searching I've been doing has led me to think that I want to be Lawful Evil (more appropriate for a worshiper of Scahrossar)


There is not much you can do that can screw this up unless if your player is a very good optimizer.

He is always one of three characters, so he knows exactly how to make them.


This advice of course assumes wizard 20 casting and no other classes. Otherwise I would suggest going in Iot7V and just laugh at his futile attempts to hurt you.

A lot of good suggestions, thanks. I'm not sure I know what "Iot7v" is tough.

[John Longarrow]

Iot7V= Initiate of the sevenfold veils. Prestige class from Complete Arcane.

[ShadowFireLance]

OOoHHAHAHAHAHA.

This is gonna be fun.

Why not make Him a Dracolich?

[Fable Wright]

Give me your worst.

You don't want that. You'll get something along the lines of shapechange repeatedly into Zodars to Wish up scrolls/Rings of 3 Wishes and/or Shapechange, and then begin an overly-convoluted process of ascending to into becoming Pun-Pun involving an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself.

What you really want is his most reasonable.

[Story]

Rogues sneak attacks don't normally do anything to undead (keep an eye out though, as there is a rogue ACF and a spell called grave strike that can bypass this) and that is one of the big things for rogues.

Might as well just keep up Heart of X all the time to give yourself a redundant immunity. It's not like a level 20 Wizard can't spare the slots.

Anyway, if you really want to make everyone cry, just listen to Tippy. He plays with stuff that I would never even dream of using.

But even without resorting to extreme stuff like that, you can make it pretty good invincible spellcaster.

Highlights off the top of my head
Genesis + Astral projection. How is the Rogue planning to sneak into your personal demiplane again?
Go Incantrix or Anima Mage and persist all the spells. Especially Shapechange.
Get as many contingencies as you can think of.

If you think he's going to attempt a dispel for some reason, just jack up your CL really high. Persisted Suffer The Flesh works well here, as does Create Magic Tatoo. Don't forget Reserves of Strength and an Orange Ioun Stone. If it's even possible for him to dispel any of your spells without a non CL bonus to checks, you're doing it wrong.

But really, you barely even have to try. Wizards are just that good.

Also, the Tarrasque as written is a joke. A level 13 party can beat it if they can acquire a scroll of Wish somehow.

Edit: Here's a list of buffs I can think of off the top of my head. You can add more if you want but I really don't see how any reasonable rogue could get past them in the first place. Be sure to persist the ones that aren't hour/level

Foresight
Shapechange (I've heard Shadesteel Golem is popular)
Mindblank
Superior Invisibility
Greater Blinking
Suffer The Flesh
Create Magic Tatoo
Ruin Delver's Fortune
Greater Mage Armor (Luminous is probably out of the question)
Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire
Greater Anticipate Teleporation
Ray Deflection
Antimagic Field (with Extraordinary Spell Aim or Mastery of Shaping)

[John Longarrow]

Just remember to involve yourself in your own garden. Nothing like having a dozen patches of brown mold around your throne to ward off pesky living thieves...

Each 5'x5' patch is a CR 2 trap. Each does 3d6 non-lethal a round to everything in a 30' radius. If you play your cards right, you can have the rogue walk into 36d6 cold damage per round as soon as he enters your crypt.

126 points of non-lethal a round should shut him down pretty quickly if he's not prepared. Add insult to injury by having other cold immune minions present, like giant skeletons.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just remember to involve yourself in your own garden. Nothing like having a dozen patches of brown mold around your throne to ward off pesky living thieves...

Each 5'x5' patch is a CR 2 trap. Each does 3d6 non-lethal a round to everything in a 30' radius. If you play your cards right, you can have the rogue walk into 36d6 cold damage per round as soon as he enters your crypt.

126 points of non-lethal a round should shut him down pretty quickly if he's not prepared. Add insult to injury by having other cold immune minions present, like giant skeletons.
No, you build your entire base out of Aleax Ice Assassin Factotum 11/ Psion 20's that have been true mind switched with blocks of granite (or other building materials) and then stuck together with Sovereign Glue.

Yes, every single stone in the floor, wall, and ceiling. Every door, every window, every chair, every light fixture. They are all utterly loyal, utterly indestructible, level 20 Psions that have unlimited PP, all arcane and divine spells as powers known, get to act multiple times per turn, have spot and listen checks higher than god, and get to ignore PR/SR. Oh yes, and they all have permanent telepathic bonds with you.

Oh yes, and don't forget the Permanent Emanation Selective Planar Bubble's that they all have set to dead magic, time locked, demi planes that exclude the Lich (so he is the only one who isn't time locked and can use magic).

[137beth]

No, you build your entire base out of Aleax Ice Assassin Factotum 11/ Psion 20's that have been true mind switched with blocks of granite (or other building materials) and then stuck together with Sovereign Glue.

Yes, every single stone in the floor, wall, and ceiling. Every door, every window, every chair, every light fixture. They are all utterly loyal, utterly indestructible, level 20 Psions that have unlimited PP, all arcane and divine spells as powers known, get to act multiple times per turn, have spot and listen checks higher than god, and get to ignore PR/SR. Oh yes, and they all have permanent telepathic bonds with you.

Oh yes, and don't forget the Permanent Emanation Selective Planar Bubble's that they all have set to dead magic, time locked, demi planes that exclude the Lich (so he is the only one who isn't time locked and can use magic).

What would happen if your insane fortress got disjunctioned? Does your dead magic/time lock block it?

EDIT: not that a level 15 ranger/rouge is going to have disjunction or anything:smallamused:

EDIT 2: Wait, I'm pretty sure you can't use any magic, even disjunction, in a dead magic demi-plane, but could disjunction dispel genesis, thereby ending the dead-magic effect?

[Emperor Tippy]

What would happen if your insane fortress got disjunctioned?
Nothing. So long as the Sovereign Glue has total cover against the Disjunction (which it should) then all that would happen would be the permanent telepathic bonds ending. Except each block always has Foresight up and can combine that with Celerity and Wings of Cover to block the Disjunction that way, or just turn on the dead magic plane traits.


Does your dead magic/time lock block it?
When turned on it does.


EDIT 2: Wait, I'm pretty sure you can't use any magic, even disjunction, in a dead magic demi-plane, but could disjunction dispel genesis, thereby ending the dead-magic effect?
Nope, Genesis is an Instantaneous duration spell. As are most of the other relevant spells in doing this.

[Story]

Ah, I knew Tippy would come through.

I thought about suggesting the turn into an Aleax trick, but it would have never occurred to me to make an entire fortress out of them. I also didn't know about the selective planar traits thing.

[Xervous]

So, Tippy, how would your fortress stand up to portable hole/bag of holding bombs that are wished into it?

Each bomb is composed of a seamless lead shell containing a bag of holding, a portable hole, and an awakened petunia separating them. After being wished in, the craft-ed contingent spell on the petunia triggers, disintegrating it. Unsupported, the portable hole falls into the bag of holding.

One big question I have is if those blocks are considered creatures...

[Emperor Tippy]

So, Tippy, how would your fortress stand up to portable hole/bag of holding bombs that are wished into it?

Each bomb is composed of a seamless lead shell containing a bag of holding, a portable hole, and an awakened petunia separating them. After being wished in, the craft-ed contingent spell on the petunia triggers, disintegrating it. Unsupported, the portable hole falls into the bag of holding.
If dead magic is turned on then nothing much happens as the bag and portable hole become non magical. Assuming that it goes off, a ten foot radius is removed and some more "Lego's" are brought in to fix things up.


One big question I have is if those blocks are considered creatures...
Yeah they are, why wouldn't they be? Most of the fun is only possible because they are creatures.

[137beth]

Nothing. So long as the Sovereign Glue has total cover against the Disjunction (which it should) then all that would happen would be the permanent telepathic bonds ending. Except each block always has Foresight up and can combine that with Celerity and Wings of Cover to block the Disjunction that way, or just turn on the dead magic plane traits.


When turned on it does.


Nope, Genesis is an Instantaneous duration spell. As are most of the other relevant spells in doing this.

Wow, I forgot--that's one of the things they changed in PF: the three spells that create a demiplane all have day/level durations (but can be made permanent with permanency) but can still be dispelled.

Okay, Tippy wins Tippies the thread.

[John Longarrow]

No, you build your entire base out of Aleax Ice Assassin Factotum 11/ Psion 20's that have been true mind switched with blocks of granite (or other building materials) and then stuck together with Sovereign Glue.

Yes, every single stone in the floor, wall, and ceiling. Every door, every window, every chair, every light fixture. They are all utterly loyal, utterly indestructible, level 20 Psions that have unlimited PP, all arcane and divine spells as powers known, get to act multiple times per turn, have spot and listen checks higher than god, and get to ignore PR/SR. Oh yes, and they all have permanent telepathic bonds with you.

Oh yes, and don't forget the Permanent Emanation Selective Planar Bubble's that they all have set to dead magic, time locked, demi planes that exclude the Lich (so he is the only one who isn't time locked and can use magic).

But that's just what they'll be EXPECTING!!!

[Emperor Tippy]

But that's just what they'll be EXPECTING!!!

Alas, it is one of those rare times where the enemy knowing about it isn't that big a deal.

For extra fun you fill every five foot cube on the Ethereal plane over the entire fortress with another block and just have them shift to the material plane if you want to be nasty. All of those hallways and empty spaces are suddenly filled.

[Zahhak]

You don't want that. You'll get something along the lines of shapechange repeatedly into Zodars to Wish up scrolls/Rings of 3 Wishes and/or Shapechange, and then begin an overly-convoluted process of ascending to into becoming Pun-Pun involving an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself.

What you really want is his most reasonable.

I'm doing this to punish a player. Worst.

Also, so many suggestions were received that I'm just going to say this:

Tippy is greater than or equal to win.

[Story]

The worst? As soon as he announces his intention to go after the wizard, tell him that the wizard went back in time and erased him from existence.

[Icarusthefallen]

The worst? As soon as he announces his intention to go after the wizard, tell him that the wizard went back in time and erased him from existence.

*Wipes hands and punches the time card* Time to go home now!

[Zahhak]

OK, well, there is that.

[Garktz]

what about a beholder mage lich?
that should be able to scare the s*** out of them...

go to this link (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com.es/2011/12/lordofprocrastinations-dirty-tricks.html) and check trick #1, add lich template, make your players hate you

[John Longarrow]

Zahhak,

Just as a word of warning. If you DM, your player will tell you the only reason the BBEG survived is because you were DMing. If you take a 20th level Lich, they will say you only won because you knew they were coming and were a higher level.

You may want to build a 13th level caster, just so you can show that at a lower level an arcane user can still be very hard to gank. Be nice, even let the back stabber lay out how he'd arrange to kill him, but have someone else DM the two of you.

Even at 13th with no LA, 7th level spells should be able to shut down the higher level rogue. Don't let him know you are lower level until AFTER he's failed. Course you will still need to be a lich, just because that's what he's expecting to go after.

Alternately just grab the boss fight from tomb of horrors and watch him die.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. The only really "indestructible" murder "machine" that I can think of offhand is The Cube. And anyone with enough money can build that. So a level 20 Lich has that in the bag.

Sadly I'm having difficulty digging up a relevant link to The Cube. :smallfrown:

[Fable Wright]

Sadly I'm having difficulty digging up a relevant link to The Cube. :smallfrown:

I believe only Doc Roc and Sofawall know what the full extent of the Cube's defenses are, and that they haven't disclosed them. You could try PMing Doc Roc and see if he'll tell you. If you do get the information, though, please share it with the rest of us. I'd love to know how the Cube was made.

[Flame of Anor]

Give me your worst.

Never say that to Tippy... :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

I believe only Doc Roc and Sofawall know what the full extent of the Cube's defenses are, and that they haven't disclosed them. You could try PMing Doc Roc and see if he'll tell you. If you do get the information, though, please share it with the rest of us. I'd love to know how the Cube was made.

Well, even the for dummies/condensed/summarized version would be enough to deal with this guy. All I recall is having special teams, possibly related to the Emerald Legion, some kind of forbiddance except for a single "teleport pad" which was surrounded by a bunch of seriously nasty guards 24/7, all movement modes, and spell turrets on the exterior, possibly made out of aurorum.

The full extent of it would be nice though, yeah.... At least I feel better about not being able to really find it then.

[John Longarrow]

Zahhak,
For got to include one item always fun when sneaky folks are around;

Take one level in Mindbender, grab the telepathy, and make sure you get mindsight. That way when you are surrounded by mindless minions, the rogue will stand out unless they are using magic to hide their mind.

Likewise see if you can get Lifesence. As a Lich you should qualify.

Thief sneaks in. You call out "OK, make sure you keep to your left to avoid the pit trap.. No, YOUR left, Your OTHER LEFT!". Thief doesn't believe you so they keep to the right and you get to hear them scream as the floor falls out form underneath them.

[Aharon]

No, you build your entire base out of Aleax Ice Assassin Factotum 11/ Psion 20's that have been true mind switched with blocks of granite (or other building materials) and then stuck together with Sovereign Glue.

Do Aleax Ice Assassin Factotum 11/Psion 20's that have been true mind switched with blocks of granite and then stuck together with Sovereign glue dream of Aleax Ice Assassin Sheep? :smallbiggrin:

What do you need the sovereign glue for? Or is this just a flavor thingy?

[Harlot]

small wish: Please tell us how it all went down. (can't help you but would just love to hear the end of the story.)

[WebTiefling]

small wish: Please tell us how it all went down. (can't help you but would just love to hear the end of the story.)

Do you have the XP to spare for that Limited Wish? :smallsmile:

[John Longarrow]

Do you have the XP to spare for that Limited Wish? :smallsmile:

He's casting small wish, not Limited Wish. Doesn't have the same XP issues, but it's how I wound up with a pianist who's a foot tall.:smallcool:

[Coidzor]

Isn't there a trick for trapping an opponent in a permanent block of ice, never dying but permanently aware-ish for the rest of eternity in a trophy room? It's usually reserved for creatures that are too tough to just casually kill or that are fond of trying to brag themselves up, IIRC.

Also, Haunt (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6315.0)Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180612). Is he going to be prepared for constructs that are designed to fool him into thinking they're undead? With a hilariously high hardness and general immunity to piercing weapons? What about invisible animated objects that can wield as many weapons as you care to give them

Any Lich worth his salt is going to have a lair which is going to rival or exceed a dragon's for danger. They've got the time and a lot of defenses they can set up only cost them time or money/xp that they were already going to invest anyway. And the Lair doesn't have to be set up to be practical in the slightest because the Lich is undead and doesn't even need to use the lair for anything due to the aforementioned private demiplane.


Do Aleax Ice Assassin Factotum 11/Psion 20's that have been true mind switched with blocks of granite and then stuck together with Sovereign glue dream of Aleax Ice Assassin Sheep? :smallbiggrin:

What do you need the sovereign glue for? Or is this just a flavor thingy?

Breaks Line of Effect and makes them stick together essentially permanently, since they can get rid of anyone who is trying to use unauthorized universal solvent on them. At least that was how I read the rest of what was posted about 'em.

[Zahhak]

We've recently started a campaign, so this wont be for awhile. Also, I'm thinking of making them start at level 5 and build up to level 15 and then fight the level 20 wizard lich, his student and assistant, who are working with 2 demigods to free the Lady of Pain from the City of Sigil. That's an appropriately epic final challenge for a group of level 15 characters, yeah?

I'm thinking he's going to disguise himself as a high level wizard quest giver who is manipulating the PCs behind the scenes.

[Fable Wright]

We've recently started a campaign, so this wont be for awhile. Also, I'm thinking of making them start at level 5 and build up to level 15 and then fight the level 20 wizard lich, his student and assistant, who are working with 2 demigods to free the Lady of Pain from the City of Sigil. That's an appropriately epic final challenge for a group of level 15 characters, yeah?

I'm thinking he's going to disguise himself as a high level wizard quest giver who is manipulating the PCs behind the scenes.

Freeing implies that the Lady wants to leave. Also, how are they planning on kicking the Lady out without entering Sigil themselves? (Demigods can't enter Sigil, and trying to kick the Lady out from inside Sigil just leaves you Mazed. Unless Harbinger House, but it's still a bad idea.)

[unseenmage]

Isn't there a trick for trapping an opponent in a permanent block of ice, never dying but permanently aware-ish for the rest of eternity in a trophy room? It's usually reserved for creatures that are too tough to just casually kill or that are fond of trying to brag themselves up, IIRC.



Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) for the Minimus Containment oughta do it, and there's not really a limit to how many times you can hire a spellcaster to help increase the effective CL on the thing.

You can also Hardening (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/hardening.htm), Matter Manipulation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterManipulation.htm), Augment Object (SBG41) the container/gem to prevent breakage.

[Zahhak]

Freeing implies that the Lady wants to leave. Also, how are they planning on kicking the Lady out without entering Sigil themselves? (Demigods can't enter Sigil, and trying to kick the Lady out from inside Sigil just leaves you Mazed. Unless Harbinger House, but it's still a bad idea.)

I'm modifying some of the lore to fit my purposes. My thinking (based in part on the Hellbound: The Blood War module) is that the Lady of Pain is some equivalent to Tharizdun (incredibly powerful and dangerous god) who is imprisoned in Sigil, but wants to escape. She's been manipulating things behind the scenes in Sigil to work out as best she can, but the lack of outright gods being in Sigil, as you said, makes that difficult, so she's working with agents of Rallaster (torturer and god of razors) and Scahrossar (goddess of sadism and torture) to free her. Those demigods are not going to actually go to Sigil, that's why the Lich is there: he's the man on the inside.

[Coidzor]

Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) for the Minimus Containment oughta do it, and there's not really a limit to how many times you can hire a spellcaster to help increase the effective CL on the thing.

You can also Hardening (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/hardening.htm), Matter Manipulation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterManipulation.htm), Augment Object (SBG41) the container/gem to prevent breakage.

Nah, it's a no-save, no-SR way to shut down and demonstrate the power of wizards/fullcasters. I think it was how a level 15 or 20 wizard said no to a level 1000 Monk provided the Monk wasn't using WBLmancy or leadership.

[Emperor Tippy]

Do Aleax Ice Assassin Factotum 11/Psion 20's that have been true mind switched with blocks of granite and then stuck together with Sovereign glue dream of Aleax Ice Assassin Sheep? :smallbiggrin:
Possibly.


What do you need the sovereign glue for? Or is this just a flavor thingy?
Mostly to ensure that everything stays together. You wouldn't want people to be able to do things like pick up the building blocks and steal them or the like.