DMing Advice Needed: How to Keep Secrets Secret?

[dukeofwolfsgate]

So I am DMing a Legend of the Five Rings campaign, and for the last two months it has been for just three players. One of these guys is secretly a practitioner of *gasp* blood magic! He has managed to keep this secret from the other two players, and a good thing too. Blood magic is an instant death sentence in-game. Lets call this player, Mark.:smallamused:

Now here is the problem. My three players seem to really enjoy my style of DMing. I have no idea why they like it so much, since I make most of it up as I go along and hardly prepare at all before each session... Anyway, this player with a secret has been telling a former member of our group how much fun they are all having. Lets call the former player, Bob.:smallbiggrin:

Mark has told Bob about his character's secret. Bob has just asked the group if in can join the campaign, because he wants to get back into the game. The other two players are happy to have him return to the table. Mark is now terrified that Bob will out his secret in-game. I was sure that this wouldn't be a problem, since everyone in this group seems to be considerate players.

Bob has just submitted his new character to me, and it is uniquely suited to investigating and exposing Mark's character's secret!

Rather than be a "No, you can't do that." kind of GM, how do I help both players enjoy the campaign with the characters they want to play?:smallconfused:

[Mastikator]

Make Bob culpable of some equally terrible crime that Mark knows about, mutually assured destruction and all that.

Or tell him that it's not actually true.

Or tell him that he isn't allowed to tell anyone.

[russdm]

Make sure that Bob remembers that his knowledge of Mark's secret is based on metagame knowledge and his character cannot ever directly ask, "Does mark practice blood magic?". Bob's character must explore and find out about the secret somehow, but can't use his metagame knowledge. His backstory should contain stuff about why he investigates blood magic and why his character is joining the group.

[Mr Beer]

Make Bob culpable of some equally terrible crime that Mark knows about, mutually assured destruction and all that.

So funny, I read OP's post and immediately thought "give Mark an equal hold over Bob".

[Remmirath]

Yeah, assuming that Bob is aware of the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge this shouldn't be a problem. Unless, of course, he has made such a character specifically in order to expose and bring about the death of Mark's character, which would not be a very friendly thing to do (unless Mark is cool with it, but if he reacted with horror at the potential reveal I'm guessing not).

I'd suggest just seeing what happens, but if either Mark's character is related to the plot somehow or if Mark would be very unhappy should this come to pass, you might want to take some steps to insure that Bob's character won't be hunting down Mark's character or getting him hunted down.

I don't know the setting, but if there is some way you can arrange for Bob's character to investigate and discover the secret of Mark's character but with a reason for him not to get Mark's character killed because of it (be it because of some secret that he has that becomes known to Mark's character or because he discovers that for whatever reason selling Mark's character out would be a poor idea), that would seem the best solution to me.

[Amaril]

Judging by your framing of the question, I assume it's not plausible that Bob's character knows Mark's character's secret in-game--that would be my ideal solution. It would allow for interesting development as Mark's character suddenly has to deal with having someone around who knows his secret and might reveal it to everyone else. With that possibility eliminated, though, I think it's best to just trust Bob to keep his in-game and real-life knowledge separate. If your group are all considerate and understand how to play the game, I doubt this will be a problem.

[jedipotter]

Rather than be a "No, you can't do that." kind of GM, how do I help both players enjoy the campaign with the characters they want to play?:smallconfused:


1.Ok, so page 27 of the rule book says something like ''if a player is caught using blood magic you must end the game and cast the player out'' or whatever. Ok, but so what? Just take the book, close it, and put it back on the shelf. And ignore it. You will notice that the world does not fall into the sun....

2.Let Bob be his detective. But don't let him use his metagame knowledge that he knows about the blood magic. So unless Mark slips up, he should have no reason to think about blood magic. You should not let him do things like ''oh I just detect for blood magic as it is Sunday''.

3.Let it play out. Even if detective Bob is on the case 24/7, and he should not be if he is also playing the game (''Evil Oni game plot? Oh I just want to ruin Mark's fun!'') You should be able to stretch it out at least 4-5 games.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

There's also a completely different direction that probably wouldn't work since the campaign is in full swing, but--

There's a number of games out there which presume that players will be responsible, and so they downplay the notion of keeping secrets, especially between characters. Burning Wheel is big on this. Why? Because knowing that the other character has a secret makes it easier for you to roleplay great scenes with them. If players have secrets, but none of the other players know about them, then those secrets don't come to light without a massive effort, usually by the GM and player in question. But if all the players know, they can work together to bring the secret into the spotlight as a source of tension and drama.

It plays into the concept of dramatic irony: when the audience knows something that the characters don't. It can really ratchet up the tension of a scene when both players know the secrets that their characters are hiding from one another, and just how close the reveals of those secrets are coming. And, if you think about it--it can be more fun to continuously tease that plot thread, knowing that it's there.

On the other hand, this situation smells like a setup. I'd be careful.

[dukeofwolfsgate]

Wow, I see some great advice here. Thanks for responding so quickly.:smallsmile:

I have been trying to surreptitiously find out more about Bob's play style from the other members of the group. He stopped playing before I joined, and I am now finding out that he does try to metagame. Often.:smallannoyed:

However, due in part to the advice and ideas all of you have given me, I don't think the campaign will take the nose dive I originally feared it would. If you have any more advice or other ideas, please keep writing!:smallwink:

[Kol Korran]

arghh....:smallannoyed: While you can do all kind of tricks and such with in game/ out of game knowledge and approaches, there is something much simpler, and healthier. I assume these are friends? Sit them both down together, have Mark explain how this is important to him, and having this revealed will ruin his game, and ask Bob to not do so, because it's a Sh*t jerk move! If your players can't come to an understanding outside the game, then they WILL find a way to ruin each other's fun in game, despite all kind of tricks and restrictions. Players find ways around them eventually.

Fix the main issue, don't build fences and constraints around it. Just talk to the players. One person's fun does not need to come at the expense of the other's.

[nedz]

Talk to Bob and ask him why he wants to play this character and how it will fit into the game. Then try to probe about the possibly metagaming. Hopefully he will set your mind at ease, or persuade him to just play something else.

[Amphetryon]

There's also a completely different direction that probably wouldn't work since the campaign is in full swing, but--

There's a number of games out there which presume that players will be responsible, and so they downplay the notion of keeping secrets, especially between characters. Burning Wheel is big on this. Why? Because knowing that the other character has a secret makes it easier for you to roleplay great scenes with them. If players have secrets, but none of the other players know about them, then those secrets don't come to light without a massive effort, usually by the GM and player in question. But if all the players know, they can work together to bring the secret into the spotlight as a source of tension and drama.

It plays into the concept of dramatic irony: when the audience knows something that the characters don't. It can really ratchet up the tension of a scene when both players know the secrets that their characters are hiding from one another, and just how close the reveals of those secrets are coming. And, if you think about it--it can be more fun to continuously tease that plot thread, knowing that it's there.

Could you - or someone else - give an example of how this has worked in an actual session to increase dramatic tension, as opposed to the tension between in-game and metagame knowledge?

[Lorsa]

I generally don't like that sort of secrets between players unless it's been agreed upon from the start that secrecy and intra-party plotting will be a major theme in the game. The fact that one player's character is using forbidden magic can potentially ruin the party, the game and the fun for everyone. It is basically setting one player up to be a secret villain and not all players like to have that as a part of their game. Also it can make people feel "cheated", as in "why did he get to have cool evil magic and I didn't? I never thought it was an option for us because of how the world works". There's nothing more frustrating than when another player character has secret cool powers from a source you didn't know exist (because the GM never told you) or thought were off bounds.

Once I've had a character who actively started working against the group in secret. That was in Ars Magica however, and it was my companion and not my mage. It was also with the knowledge that one day it would be found out and the mages (including my own) would have to deal with it. The point of the storyline was always to create a fun adventure for our mages, when they noticed their librarian was secretly a demon-worshipper.

Does your forbidden magic user know that eventually his character might get killed by the others and is he okay with that?

[Terraoblivion]

Judging by your framing of the question, I assume it's not plausible that Bob's character knows Mark's character's secret in-game--that would be my ideal solution.

The problem with this solution is that knowing blood magic isn't so much a capital crime as it is the single most reviled, evil thing you can possibly do in the setting. If discovered, it's not just you getting executed, it's your entire family just in case and unlike pretty much all other crimes where pulling rank is a possibility, there are secret investigators working to root out exactly this. Even most dishonorable blackmailers are liable to report someone who knows blood magic immediately, it's just that much of a taboo.

So for Bob to know about it and not reporting it, he'd go beyond simply being neglectful or an ordinary blackmailer into becoming a traitor consorting with evil spirits and quite likely suffer the same punishment should it be discovered. That would put rather immense limits on the kind of character Bob could play to put it mildly and push the party that much more towards being destroyed as a whole should it be discovered.

[The_Werebear]

Could you - or someone else - give an example of how this has worked in an actual session to increase dramatic tension, as opposed to the tension between in-game and metagame knowledge?

I had something like this come up in a campaign I was in. The setting was in a Constantinople expy. The main worship in the city was to Pelor, but the religious powers were specific to be as generally tolerant as possible, even to evil religions that were technically illegal. There was a hidden order within the Pelorites, however, that was dedicated to destroying those Cults by fire and sword, and was not above breaking the law and acting in secret. The party's Paladin was a member of that order, and would have been excommunicated as a heretic if outed.

Meanwhile, the party's monk was a member of a secret cult to the Eighth Duke of Hell. He hid all of his abilities granted by the Devil PRC and pacts he made behind Alchemical excuses, and wore a ring of nondetection. The Cult's scope was rather limited, as they simply wanted an official place inside the city's hierarchy and recognition rather than total dominance of the city. However, they knew about the secret Pelorite witch hunting sect and wanted to destroy them as the highly placed members in it would never allow them to secure an official position in the city.

I knew the monk's player was a cultist because I had considered making a character in the cult as well, but decided against it. So, I knew both that it existed and that the monk's player had designed his character around it OOC, but specifically had no idea IC. The Paladin managed to keep his affiliation (and order, even) completely secret from the rest of the party, save for his fiancee who knew OOC but not IC. I believe this ended up helping the RP of all of us, as it gave us some insight into the IC actions OOC, and made us all appreciate how clever the maneuvering of the monk and paladin were as they looked out for each other while simultaneous hiding their secrets from each other.

The true irony was that, until the very end of the campaign when the secrets unraveled in the fires of war, the two of them worked better together than any other members of the party. The paladin looked out for the monk's alchemical business, buying large amounts of supplies for his order, and even considered trying to recruit him at one point. The monk, on the other hand, helped the Paladin rescue several high ranking Church members from assassins connected to another cult, and secured a promotion for him by tipping him off to other enemy cult activity.

The end came when, while the city was under heavy attack from a Demon cult, the Monk made a pact with a Horned Devil and 100 legion devils (this was e6, so a 16HD combat monster demon could have come close to soloing an enemy army on his own), giving up his body and soul so ensure his protection of the city. When the Horned Devil in the monk's body showed up, the rest of the party was about to allow in in favor of saving the city, but the Paladin, with his strict anti-cult vows revealed himself with the rest of the order and attacked the Devils as well as the demons. The Devils then decided that the city needed protection from the Paladins as well, and destroyed the order, church of Pelor, and governmental structure. The control of the city ended up in the hands of that original Devil cult, who hadn't even wanted it.

So, the entire party ends up dead, disgraced, in exile, or owned body and soul by a devil. The ending would not have been so tragic without the secrets being kept, and if there hadn't been some metagame knowledge about it on the player's part, the ending would have seemed sudden and deus ex-y rather than the culmination of both sides trying to do their best for the city while hating each other secretly from afar.

[Lorsa]

Terraoblivion's post just furthers my concern. Are the other players aware of the fact that Mark has a character with a secret that if discovered will lead to their entire party's destruction? It seems this "secret" isn't just a problem for Mark, it's a problem for the other group and maybe not the sort of problem the other players wanted to have?

[Amphetryon]

I had something like this come up in a campaign I was in. The setting was in a Constantinople expy. The main worship in the city was to Pelor, but the religious powers were specific to be as generally tolerant as possible, even to evil religions that were technically illegal. There was a hidden order within the Pelorites, however, that was dedicated to destroying those Cults by fire and sword, and was not above breaking the law and acting in secret. The party's Paladin was a member of that order, and would have been excommunicated as a heretic if outed.

Meanwhile, the party's monk was a member of a secret cult to the Eighth Duke of Hell. He hid all of his abilities granted by the Devil PRC and pacts he made behind Alchemical excuses, and wore a ring of nondetection. The Cult's scope was rather limited, as they simply wanted an official place inside the city's hierarchy and recognition rather than total dominance of the city. However, they knew about the secret Pelorite witch hunting sect and wanted to destroy them as the highly placed members in it would never allow them to secure an official position in the city.

I knew the monk's player was a cultist because I had considered making a character in the cult as well, but decided against it. So, I knew both that it existed and that the monk's player had designed his character around it OOC, but specifically had no idea IC. The Paladin managed to keep his affiliation (and order, even) completely secret from the rest of the party, save for his fiancee who knew OOC but not IC. I believe this ended up helping the RP of all of us, as it gave us some insight into the IC actions OOC, and made us all appreciate how clever the maneuvering of the monk and paladin were as they looked out for each other while simultaneous hiding their secrets from each other.

The true irony was that, until the very end of the campaign when the secrets unraveled in the fires of war, the two of them worked better together than any other members of the party. The paladin looked out for the monk's alchemical business, buying large amounts of supplies for his order, and even considered trying to recruit him at one point. The monk, on the other hand, helped the Paladin rescue several high ranking Church members from assassins connected to another cult, and secured a promotion for him by tipping him off to other enemy cult activity.

The end came when, while the city was under heavy attack from a Demon cult, the Monk made a pact with a Horned Devil and 100 legion devils (this was e6, so a 16HD combat monster demon could have come close to soloing an enemy army on his own), giving up his body and soul so ensure his protection of the city. When the Horned Devil in the monk's body showed up, the rest of the party was about to allow in in favor of saving the city, but the Paladin, with his strict anti-cult vows revealed himself with the rest of the order and attacked the Devils as well as the demons. The Devils then decided that the city needed protection from the Paladins as well, and destroyed the order, church of Pelor, and governmental structure. The control of the city ended up in the hands of that original Devil cult, who hadn't even wanted it.

So, the entire party ends up dead, disgraced, in exile, or owned body and soul by a devil. The ending would not have been so tragic without the secrets being kept, and if there hadn't been some metagame knowledge about it on the player's part, the ending would have seemed sudden and deus ex-y rather than the culmination of both sides trying to do their best for the city while hating each other secretly from afar.

Perhaps my definition of metagame knowledge differs from yours (or is simply entirely too broad), but that reads to me as increasing tension between in-game and metagame knowledge, rather than actual dramatic tension.

[Segev]

First off, find out from Bob if he plans to out Mark's character, OOC, to the other players.

You need to know this just to be informed as to what is going on going forward. If Bob plans to do so - or worse, says he doesn't but does so anyway - he risks damaging the fun the players are having in the game. So you want to make sure he's really going to be an asset to the game.

Secondly, what Clan and School is Bob going to be? Might he have sins of his own to keep quiet? Can you get Mark and Bob to work out a shared past, something that would make Bob's character unlikely to want to know Mark's character (hereafter known as Bob-san and Mark-san, to differntiate from their players) is doing evil?

Alternatively, if Bob-san has some dark secrets of his own, and Mark-san knows them, the two can blackmail each other into silence. Or be good friends (or former friends) who wouldn't betray each other anyway, but could punish the other if such betrayal happened.

[RPGuru1331]

Honestly, if you're letting Mark be a maho in secret from the other players, you're writing yourself into a sticky situation regardless. That's the sort of thing that can easily end the game if you act in-character for the NPCs involved. There are 3 secret societies dedicated to rooting out blood mages, and two official ones that make it their life's goal. About the only people who would keep a maho on the down-low, barring insanely exceptional circumstances clearly designed to protect the existing one in the game, are the Spider, who IIRC don't really have any techniques particularly good for secret-finding.

If the other 2 players are the sort to go full-on IC only knowledge ever, and they don't complain when things they didn't know about screw their characters over, then I would veto Bob's character and not consult with the rest of the group on it. If he protests, I'd say why - he's really looking out to expose someone based on OOC knowledge. That can be *great* fun, but not to that sort of group.

If the other two players greatly dislike it when things they didn't know about screw their characters over, then I'd just go ahead and bring it up to the group OOCly. Let them work it out like adults or people near adulthood.

For the non-L5R players, being a maho is pretty much like being the worst parody of a devil worshipper. It is established firmly in setting and in mechanics that it is not possible to do this and remain a decent human being - not just according to Rokugan, but according to pretty much any ethos. As was said, it's not just a 'capital crime', although it is also that.

[The_Werebear]

Perhaps my definition of metagame knowledge differs from yours (or is simply entirely too broad), but that reads to me as increasing tension between in-game and metagame knowledge, rather than actual dramatic tension.

Perhaps. What I noticed about it though, was as tension between Metagame and IC knowledge increased, so did the dramatic tension as players who were in the know out of character watched the characters brush shoulders with their worst enemies without knowing it.

Basically, it let the audience appreciate the irony of the situation. Though, for this particular situation, I'd be very worried about Bob's ability to keep his metagame knowledge out of the IC. In situations where the OOC knowledge will bring the campaign to a screeching, catastrophic halt, the players have to be very good about not letting the OOC information taint their actions.

[Amphetryon]

Perhaps. What I noticed about it though, was as tension between Metagame and IC knowledge increased, so did the dramatic tension as players who were in the know out of character watched the characters brush shoulders with their worst enemies without knowing it.

Basically, it let the audience appreciate the irony of the situation. Though, for this particular situation, I'd be very worried about Bob's ability to keep his metagame knowledge out of the IC. In situations where the OOC knowledge will bring the campaign to a screeching, catastrophic halt, the players have to be very good about not letting the OOC information taint their actions.

I'm trying to work out how this would be possible without applying metagame knowledge. Any insights?

[BWR]

Terraoblivion is exaggerating the legal consequences of maho a bit. Yes, everyone connected to the culprit will be tainted (ha ha) with some association-guilt, but depending on clan and status this will be downplayed or investigated and not mentioned again in polite company. Though a great shame on the family's honor, the family and friends of a maho-tsukai will usually not be eliminated if they are unTainted and beyond reasonable doubt innocent. If that were not the case there would be no Kuni and few Isawa left. If family and/or friends were aware of this and helped hide the crime, then they are guilty as **** and will be killed when discovered.

In the case of the obviously metagaming player (did he make a tsukai-sagasu?), take him aside before the game and ask him point blank why he's making a character that is obviously based on OOC knowledge and why he's trying to sabotage the other player like this. Unless he can make a good case (and "I'm not doing that, honestly" is not a good case) just tell him to make something else and come down hard on metagaming.

Amusingly enough, I've also played a companion in an Ars Magica campaign who was working against the Covenant (a priest whose job from the bishop was to undermine and ruin these godless wizards). It was pretty obvious to the players that he was not working in their best interests, but they were good roleplayers and went along with it and didn't use OOC knowledge until the big showdown happened (and the priest and his posse with pitchforks and torches got lost in a magic tower regio). With good players, secrets aren't always necessary, even if they are often fun.

[The_Werebear]

I'm trying to work out how this would be possible without applying metagame knowledge. Any insights?

By internal separation of the Player as the driver of the character and as the observer of the action.

I chose how my character will act based on their knowledge, morals, abilities, and preferences, with a lesser influence on general party harmony. At the same time, I observe the story that my friends and I are playing out as the audience as well. One of the easiest ways to build drama is to have characters acting without information that the audience is privileged to.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Could you - or someone else - give an example of how this has worked in an actual session to increase dramatic tension, as opposed to the tension between in-game and metagame knowledge?
I can mainly only speak to Burning Wheel here--but the basic idea is that, since secrets are a button you can nudge without outright exposing, they provide just as much grist for roleplaying as a pronounced character trait. It's just a character trait that the characters are unaware of. The players know which innocent words and questions to play off of that put the secrets in the spotlight.

In one game I ran, we had a dwarf PC in search of a holy artifact of her family's, and a cultist PC who had found the artifact, intent on using it for a ritual. The cultist did not realize that it was the dwarf's artifact, because the dwarf hadn't mentioned her search for it--it being a personal thing. The players knew it was a very personal matter for the dwarf, and that meant that the cultist's player slanted* their character towards keeping the artifact.

*when I speak of "slanting", I refer to the idea that for a given character, there are multiple actions they can take in a situation that are "in character" for them. "Slanting" means narrowing down the possibilities from that for one reason or another.

Secrets are very similar to any other character motivation: the other characters don't know about them, but they're also a driving force in play. Making the players aware of these can help them to arrange situations where nice, juicy conflicts can arise.

That being said--it's discouraging to hear that past experience with Bob is that Bob is a metagamer...

[Yora]

So a player made a character with a secret that would get the character in very serious trouble if it is ever discovered?
And now the possibility of getting discovered is such a huge problem?

If the player never wanted to get into this trouble, why did he make the character in the first place?
If he now thinks it was a bad idea to begin with, and nobody ever found out, yet, it would probably be easiest to simply say that the character was never a blood mage to begin with. Easy as that.

[Delta]

So a player made a character with a secret that would get the character in very serious trouble if it is ever discovered?
And now the possibility of getting discovered is such a huge problem?

No, the huge problem is that the new player already knows and has built a character which strongly suggests he'll use that metagame knowledge to "discover" his secret.

[Segev]

To put it another way, the concern is that Player A (the maho-tsukai) created Superman, who wears glasses and a suit to pretend to be Clark Kent.

Player B, who already knows OOC that Clark Kent is Superman, has asked to join the game as another member of Daily Planet. His character wears Kryptonite bling, and the worry is that his intent is to play the character as a personal space invader.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah, that's a succinct summary. The issue is not with the risk of discovery, but with the fact that it very strongly seems that the new player is gunning to uncover the secret using out-of-character knowledge. To wit, they seem to be building a character specifically geared towards screwing the other player over.

[Amphetryon]

Yeah, that's a succinct summary. The issue is not with the risk of discovery, but with the fact that it very strongly seems that the new player is gunning to uncover the secret using out-of-character knowledge. To wit, they seem to be building a character specifically geared towards screwing the other player over.

This seems like a built-in issue with secrets in a Character's background. If the secret never comes up, it's fundamentally wasted space that the Player need not have invested effort in concocting. If, on the other hand, the secret comes to light (through any means other than a confession/admission), then someone at the table is using metagame information in order to mess with the Character.

And yet, a Character with no secrets around which her back-story is built runs the real risk of showing Adventurer Orphan Syndrome, being all but devoid of things that motivate the Character to seek new adventures beyond the lure of phat lewt.

[Segev]

This seems like a built-in issue with secrets in a Character's background. If the secret never comes up, it's fundamentally wasted space that the Player need not have invested effort in concocting. If, on the other hand, the secret comes to light (through any means other than a confession/admission), then someone at the table is using metagame information in order to mess with the Character.

And yet, a Character with no secrets around which her back-story is built runs the real risk of showing Adventurer Orphan Syndrome, being all but devoid of things that motivate the Character to seek new adventures beyond the lure of phat lewt.
You do realize that the very act of performing maho in secret is shaping the game and creating new challenges while mitigating old, right?

Are you just ignoring the fact that the issue here is that most of the players do not have OOC knowledge of the IC secret, and this newcomer has OOC knowledge and seems to have built a character with the express purpose of "discovering" what he knows OOC as IC information?

The issue isn't about whether or not the secret comes out. That is something the GM and player-in-question already have in hand, and have shown no issue with managing. The issue is that there is concern that one new player has specifically designed his character to screw up an existing player's character.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

This seems like a built-in issue with secrets in a Character's background. If the secret never comes up, it's fundamentally wasted space that the Player need not have invested effort in concocting. If, on the other hand, the secret comes to light (through any means other than a confession/admission), then someone at the table is using metagame information in order to mess with the Character.

And yet, a Character with no secrets around which her back-story is built runs the real risk of showing Adventurer Orphan Syndrome, being all but devoid of things that motivate the Character to seek new adventures beyond the lure of phat lewt.
I agree 100% with the benefit that secrets add to the game when they impact it; I've said as much in my earlier post discussing Burning Wheel's take on secrets.

The problem is when one player is very probably going to unfairly weaponize the secret for whatever motives of their own.

[Delta]

This seems like a built-in issue with secrets in a Character's background. If the secret never comes up, it's fundamentally wasted space that the Player need not have invested effort in concocting. If, on the other hand, the secret comes to light (through any means other than a confession/admission), then someone at the table is using metagame information in order to mess with the Character.

Why do you think someone using metagame information is the only way this would ever come out? If I was running a campaign for a character like this, I'd try to create situations that would, over time, make it likely that some hints would be dropped, ingame, for the other characters to figure it out. Or the best option, create situations where the player of said character would have the choice of either creating such hints himself or face other consequences. That way, you give the player the option of either keeping the secret but losing out on something or risk exposing himself.

For example, in one Shadowrun game I had one character that was an undercover cop, in one adventure the group got framed by a rival and the cops were out to get them while they had an important job to do, so the player had the choice of either calling in to get the cops off their tail, which of course made the party aware that someone had done something to help them and made them more suspicious in the future, or he could do nothing and try to pull of the job while under the additional pressure of a police hunt.

Using metagame information to expose a secret doesn't add to the game, it's no fun for anyone involved, because the player of the character with the secret will feel cheated and the rest of the players won't feel like they've "earned" the reveal somehow.

[RPGuru1331]

Using metagame information to expose a secret doesn't add to the game, it's no fun for anyone involved, because the player of the character with the secret will feel cheated and the rest of the players won't feel like they've "earned" the reveal somehow.
Unless you don't really care about keeping the secret from the other players, or exposing it, and people are actually concerned with the drama created by the secret and/or its reveal.

Like I said, what to do depends on the group. The OP hasn't discussed their group enough, but presumably knows, and hopefully things go great for the game.

[Delta]

Unless you don't really care about keeping the secret from the other players, or exposing it, and people are actually concerned with the drama created by the secret and/or its reveal.

But that pretty obviously isn't the case here, because the player obviously does care about keeping the secret.

[Amphetryon]

Why do you think someone using metagame information is the only way this would ever come out? If I was running a campaign for a character like this, I'd try to create situations that would, over time, make it likely that some hints would be dropped, ingame, for the other characters to figure it out. Or the best option, create situations where the player of said character would have the choice of either creating such hints himself or face other consequences. That way, you give the player the option of either keeping the secret but losing out on something or risk exposing himself.

For example, in one Shadowrun game I had one character that was an undercover cop, in one adventure the group got framed by a rival and the cops were out to get them while they had an important job to do, so the player had the choice of either calling in to get the cops off their tail, which of course made the party aware that someone had done something to help them and made them more suspicious in the future, or he could do nothing and try to pull of the job while under the additional pressure of a police hunt.

Using metagame information to expose a secret doesn't add to the game, it's no fun for anyone involved, because the player of the character with the secret will feel cheated and the rest of the players won't feel like they've "earned" the reveal somehow.

Could you explain, in more detail, how using the fact that the example Character was an undercover cop - a secret that, apparently, never came up in-game unless there was a separate (portion of a) session where this expressly became an in-game fact - was not using metagame information previously found only on the Player's Character Sheet/background write-up?

[RPGuru1331]

But that pretty obviously isn't the case here, because the player obviously does care about keeping the secret.
Yes, but Mark's opinion isn't the only one that matters. If the unnamed pair really hate bad things happening because of these kinds of secrets, Mark's kind of being a jerk, among other possibilities. Granted, from what little we've heard of them, vetoing Bob is the right call.

[AgentofHellfire]

There's always the possibility of barring any investigation attempts on Mark until Mark does something the GM finds suspicious...

(At which point, you could say "Are you sure you want to do that? That might get some odd looks...", which could be the new player's cue)

[Delta]

Could you explain, in more detail, how using the fact that the example Character was an undercover cop - a secret that, apparently, never came up in-game unless there was a separate (portion of a) session where this expressly became an in-game fact - was not using metagame information previously found only on the Player's Character Sheet/background write-up?

Huh? I honestly don't think I understand what you mean. No one used metagame information. In the situation I described the character ended up calling off the police pursuit on the group, which helped them do their job but the rest of the group got suspicious because they now knew that someone with police connections was helping them for some reason. Nowhere was metagame information involved.

There were more incidents and the players as well as the characters began to suspect the other character but he managed to dance around the suspicions beautifully for a while, in the end he decided to reveal himself to the group because he thought it was the only way to make sure a large number of innocent bystanders wouldn't be harmed during a mission (complicated story). But no one ever used metagame information, all the players had was the ingame information their characters had.

Okay, there was one incident of an attempt at gaining metagame information because one player actually tried to pick up a note the "undercover player" had just thrown into the paper bin after the game was over, but they didn't gain anything by it because we had a kind of "cypher" so the messages looked harmless.

[Amaril]

Huh? I honestly don't think I understand what you mean. No one used metagame information.

I would guess that Amphetryon is a proponent of Narrative Chaos Theory--if it's canon but secret, it's not canon. Basically this means that unless a particular piece of information has been directly addressed in the game's story by the entire group, it is considered metagame knowledge, even if it's part of a character's background and has been for the entire duration of the story. So if one player is an undercover cop, but none of the other players know about it and it hasn't been explicitly stated IC, the fact that that character is a cop is only true as metagame knowledge until it's revealed to the rest of the group and addressed by the characters.

I'm not sure if that's what Amphetryon actually means, that was just my guess. Hopefully I managed to phrase it in a comprehensible way.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's not really so much an issue of what your theoretical position is on secrets. Like I said before, secrets-in-the-open leads to some great stuff in play.

The issue here is that we've got a potential griefer on our hands.

[Amphetryon]

I would guess that Amphetryon is a proponent of Narrative Chaos Theory--if it's canon but secret, it's not canon. Basically this means that unless a particular piece of information has been directly addressed in the game's story by the entire group, it is considered metagame knowledge, even if it's part of a character's background and has been for the entire duration of the story. So if one player is an undercover cop, but none of the other players know about it and it hasn't been explicitly stated IC, the fact that that character is a cop is only true as metagame knowledge until it's revealed to the rest of the group and addressed by the characters.

I'm not sure if that's what Amphetryon actually means, that was just my guess. Hopefully I managed to phrase it in a comprehensible way.
If the information only exists on a Character sheet, as opposed to having been brought up by the Character in question, in-game and during the course of play, then it IS metagame information. Whoever used the information - whether GM or fellow Player Character - used information that was not otherwise available through the normal course of play that only existed as a result of the fact that the Players were there playing the game.

[dukeofwolfsgate]

Update: Just before our first game with Bob in the group, I took him aside and discussed his character's inclusion into the party and his OOC knowledge of Mark's character.
I came away with the impression that Bob has no intentions of using that knowledge in-game. He seemed earnest in his desire to simply enjoy gaming with old friends.
As for Mark, he still harbors a little unease about another player knowing his secret. However, he is willing to give Bob the benefit of the doubt for now.

Thanks everyone for your advice and ideas. I will certainly be using some of them to facilitate better management of secret plots!:smallcool:

[Delta]

If the information only exists on a Character sheet, as opposed to having been brought up by the Character in question, in-game and during the course of play, then it IS metagame information.

Then it is a good thing that never happened, since the character very much brought this up ingame and during the course of play to call off a very real police manhunt on the group, so he used a resource he had access to to visibly impact the game. No "metagaming" involved whatsoever.

[Amphetryon]

Then it is a good thing that never happened, since the character very much brought this up ingame and during the course of play to call off a very real police manhunt on the group, so he used a resource he had access to to visibly impact the game. No "metagaming" involved whatsoever.

In which case it wasn't a secret, and appears to have been an aside to the titular topic of the thread. . . .

[SiuiS]

Talk to both players together about the fact that either they need to come to an agreement not to make this a thing, or to make it fun for everyone.

Blood magic guy is a bad guy. He knew that when he signed up. And you are all adults, Right? So the character arcs wherein this Bob finds out about Mark could be rife with story. Perhaps he alone finds out and there's some bind wherein the other party members don't know? Having leverage over a powerful maho tsukai could be good for his clan, in the short term. They'd understand, right? It's not a stain on his honor, he's actually doing the honorable thing by using wickedness to thwart itself, as is the Mandate of Heaven! And if he ends up having to occasionally protect Mark's identity later, why, that's okay! Until he's too deep, of course.

Could be loads of fun! Just try to hash it out as adults so there are no hurt feelings.

[Telok]

If the information only exists on a Character sheet, as opposed to having been brought up by the Character in question, in-game and during the course of play, then it IS metagame information. Whoever used the information - whether GM or fellow Player Character - used information that was not otherwise available through the normal course of play that only existed as a result of the fact that the Players were there playing the game.

By this defintion of meta-game knowledge I've seen characters at the table whose species and gender were meta-game. This definition means that I've had characters whose backstory and motivations were meta-game. I have seen a person play a mute, illiterate, barbarian. Does that make everything except the character's visual appearance and in game actions, into meta-game information? It probably does. But does it imply that the barbarian's clan does not exist or cannot be used in the game because it is "only" meta-game knowledge?

I think that such a broad definition of meta-game information and a restrictive or negative response to using that knowledge in any form can be a form of trying to not enjoy or enhance the game. I think that the appropriate use of meta-game knowledge, done well and within the constraints of the characters and the game, is appropriate and can enhance the game.

[Amphetryon]

By this defintion of meta-game knowledge I've seen characters at the table whose species and gender were meta-game. This definition means that I've had characters whose backstory and motivations were meta-game. I have seen a person play a mute, illiterate, barbarian. Does that make everything except the character's visual appearance and in game actions, into meta-game information? It probably does. But does it imply that the barbarian's clan does not exist or cannot be used in the game because it is "only" meta-game knowledge?

I think that such a broad definition of meta-game information and a restrictive or negative response to using that knowledge in any form can be a form of trying to not enjoy or enhance the game. I think that the appropriate use of meta-game knowledge, done well and within the constraints of the characters and the game, is appropriate and can enhance the game.
So, you think I'm having WrongBadFun? Thanks.

[Equinox]

Rather than be a "No, you can't do that." kind of GM, how do I help both players enjoy the campaign with the characters they want to play?:smallconfused:

In this particular case, being a "No, you can't do that." kind of GM is exactly what will help both players enjoy the campaign.

[Delta]

In which case it wasn't a secret, and appears to have been an aside to the titular topic of the thread. . . .

Um... no? I'm sorry I really don't get what you're going for here. It was a secret. The other players didn't know he was an undercover cop. I think I made that clear. That doesn't mean it didn't come up during gameplay, because as I explained, it did.

[Amphetryon]

Um... no? I'm sorry I really don't get what you're going for here. It was a secret. The other players didn't know he was an undercover cop. I think I made that clear. That doesn't mean it didn't come up during gameplay, because as I explained, it did.

If it came up during play, then you weren't keeping the secret a secret. If you were, it would have remained secret. The OP asks how to keep secrets, not appropriate times/ways to divulge them.

[Telok]

So, you think I'm having WrongBadFun? Thanks.

No, I think that your definition of meta-game may be overly broad and the knee jerk negative reaction to all meta-game limits your play style and options.

[Delta]

If it came up during play, then you weren't keeping the secret a secret. If you were, it would have remained secret. The OP asks how to keep secrets, not appropriate times/ways to divulge them.

I don't think you understand what I mean. Just that it came up during play does not mean everyone knows. The player told me he called his contact to call of the manhunt, so it came it during play, that doesn't mean everyone know what happened. The only thing everyone knew is that the hunt for their characters had ended, which meant that the decidedly ingame action of one character had direct and very visible impact on everyone else. That's the very opposite of metagaming.

And for the record, to divulge a secret at the appropriate time, you have to keep it until then.