Help Polishing a Githzerai Devoted Blade Build

[Tokuhara]

Now, I know that the title isn't "Technically" correct, but I wanted to give this hybrid an appropriate name.

Now, as many of you know, I posted a 4e help request involving hybrids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304572). Before I get any "Don't Hybrid, You Idiot"s, I want to point out that the DM said he WANTS me to play this, because he has a fluff-thing when I mentioned this. That, and he wants me to build myself an "adversary" because of my backstory, but a build for another time.

So I have this as a template for what I'm doing long-term, but it's still a work-in-process (I played vanilla 4e when it started):


Githzerai Avenger of Ioun/Assaulting Swordmage Hybrid -> Wandering Swordmage -> Just About Any Epic Destiny that tickles my fancy

Feats (Up to 16):

1. Hybrid Talent (Armor of Faith)
2. Githzerai Blade Master
4. Power of Skill
6. Unarmored Agility
8. Expertise (Heavy Blade)
10. Battlewise
11. Double Aegis
12. Painful Oath
14. Mark of Warding
16. Danger Sense

Powers (Up to 13):

Utility 1. Overwhelming Strike
Utility 1. Sword Burst
Encounter 1. Blazing Pursuit
Daily 1. Aspect of Might
Utility 2. Distracting Flame
Encounter 3. Fury's Advance
Daily 5. Dimensional Bond
Utility 6. Armanthor's Step
Encounter 7. Echoes of Sword Magic
Daily 9. Blade of Repulsion
Utility 10. Armor of Assault
Encounter 13. Crimson Stride

So here's my question:

What else are good choices to improve this build's "late-game" potential (Backgrounds, Themes, Epic Destiny, Feats, Power choices, Gear) without giving up on what makes it work (if there's a feat I should swap for, give me a good hit point, but realistically, let's focus on late-Paragon into Epic). This realistically is a cross between a Fullblade Avenger and an Aggressive Swordmage, to the point that I want to just improve the first Fullblade I get my hands on rather than buying a brand new one every other level (If there's a rule for that, please let me know!).

And the fluff of this PC is the "Wandering Ronin" fluff, with the "Enemies burned down my monastery and killed everyone but me, so I want Revenge" core (his "Rival" will likely be a Githyanki Swordmage/Wizard Hybrid+Paragon Path+Epic Destiny who dual-wields Githyanki Silver Shortswords), so if y'all can play off that, groovy.

Thanks in Advance!

~Toku~
To-Be Player of Bon, the Blade Twice Broken: Githzerai Devoted Blade 1

[Dimers]

I'm currently running something quite close to this character in a PbP here on the forums. It works fine so far ... durable, mobile, not the best striker and not much of a defender at all but it certainly doesn't weigh down the party in combat.

There are a couple very nice feats you can access if you MC monk -- Zuoken's Centering is the most applicable to your build. I like Ki Focus Expertise for the bonus damage and the fact that it applies to my weapon and implement attacks equally. Naturally, if you come from a monastery, taking MC monk at any point is only natural. And you can add some flurry damage once per combat -- never a bad thing.

I also use the monk feat Healing Fist because I took a theme that gave me access to minor-action second wind -- plus 6 or so damage with each hit for two rounds is nice. And I use Power Attack for another +6 damage because my paragon path, the githzerai-specific Storvakal, reduces the attack penalty from -2 to 0 in most cases.

Unless your Dexterity is quite low to begin with, Improved Initiative might do more for you than either Battlewise or Danger Sense. For my 11th-level character with Wis21 and Dex14, ImprInit is strictly better than Battlewise, and they'll only be even once I hit 14th. And double-rolling a d20 tends to improve your average by about 3.5 ... meaning ImprInit would be better than Danger Sense too, though less reliable in ways.

I bet your allies would love Shared Danger Sense!

I don't know powers very well, but I heartily recommend dimensional vortex, a third-level swordmage power. It's like an interrupt teleport+dominate. Seriously, it's just amazing. That's an implement power, though, so if you plan to use only weapon powers and keep that Heavy Blade Expertise, it wouldn't be as accurate.

[Yakk]

I am not sure what makes this build "work"?

What level are you starting at?

What role do you want to play in combat?

How optimized is the rest of your group, and how optimized do you want to be?

Double Aegis seems like a waste: marking two targets, when if you have more than one adjacent to you, your oath doesn't work, seems relatively pointless.

[Dimers]

Double Aegis is definitely a good pick for this build. Sure, you can only apply Oath to one (at least until epic levels), but the rest of the party will often destroy one of your aegis targets while you're busy anyway. And reducing the number of minor actions this build has to spend is a very good idea (minor to aegis, minor to oath, not a lot of time left per round), so marking two with one action is helpful.

This build doesn't "work" in the sense of being superior to avenger or swordmage. It gets access to lots of teleportation, which is never a bad thing ... might get more attacks per combat than avenger, is almost certainly more damaging and more accurate than swordmage. It's not as good at defending as a straight swordmage (not by a long shot!) and not as good at dishing out damage as a straight avenger (but pretty close). It's a highly mobile striker build, with a weak tendency to draw off one foe at a time. Nothing wrong with that. Also, it's a good build for a team with a MBA-granter. Neither avengers nor swordmages typically have that going for them.

Speaking of MBAs, chargecheese is one good way to make the best of this build. It helps your action economy: aegis two enemies, oath another on the other side of the battle, charge for an accurate strike. Since the race is githzerai, you can take Githzerai Mobility to be all but unhittable by OAs. And if you can cross the whole battlefield like that frequently, you're more likely to benefit from mark violations.

[Yakk]

Except you want to "duel" your oath target.

Marked foes will want to swarm you. Oath foes will want to get away. Mark+Oath on one gives you a foe who both wants to get away and swarm you (which is perfect, a catch-22).

Marking different foes than you oath gives you 2 foes who want to swarm you, and one foe you want to be alone next to. How is this a good idea?

If they violate your mark, you either ignore it, or get into a horrible position to re-engage your oath target.

I guess you can treat oath as soft control: keep away from me or die, then be a "traditional" defender without using your avenger double-roll.

But the build as written looks like a classic hybrid trap. 1/3 feats are common, 1/3 benefit defender, 1/3 benefit avenger. 2 of your feats just make up for your hybrid defence deficiency, and you end up having no better AC than a 0-feat swordmage (and possibly worse: swordmage can go 20 int, you cannot) or a 1-feat avenger, so no synergy there.

What might make the build work is the above catch-22, where we tear the foe between running away from the oath, and engaging the foe who marks you.

While being able to double-mark is useful action-economy wise, it seriously hampers the above catch-22.

Of your feats, the 2 initiative feats and mark of warding and double aegis are all seriously questionable. Basically everything from level 10 up I'd try to find something stronger.

[Dimers]

Yakk, when aegis of assault triggers, you teleport next to the mark before attacking. That's unlikely to leave you in a position where you're next to multiple enemies, unless they're all so crowded together that they're easy prey for your party's AoEs. Also, it's easy to choose avenger powers that help you reposition yourself or your foes so that you can double-roll. Believe me, in actual practice, it is NOT a problem to have two marks and one Oathie.

[Tokuhara]

Double Aegis is definitely a good pick for this build. Sure, you can only apply Oath to one (at least until epic levels), but the rest of the party will often destroy one of your aegis targets while you're busy anyway. And reducing the number of minor actions this build has to spend is a very good idea (minor to aegis, minor to oath, not a lot of time left per round), so marking two with one action is helpful.

This build doesn't "work" in the sense of being superior to avenger or swordmage. It gets access to lots of teleportation, which is never a bad thing ... might get more attacks per combat than avenger, is almost certainly more damaging and more accurate than swordmage. It's not as good at defending as a straight swordmage (not by a long shot!) and not as good at dishing out damage as a straight avenger (but pretty close). It's a highly mobile striker build, with a weak tendency to draw off one foe at a time. Nothing wrong with that. Also, it's a good build for a team with a MBA-granter. Neither avengers nor swordmages typically have that going for them.

Speaking of MBAs, chargecheese is one good way to make the best of this build. It helps your action economy: aegis two enemies, oath another on the other side of the battle, charge for an accurate strike. Since the race is githzerai, you can take Githzerai Mobility to be all but unhittable by OAs. And if you can cross the whole battlefield like that frequently, you're more likely to benefit from mark violations.

^This^ basically says it all.

My goal is to single out the guy who is most important (Enemy Leader/Controller/Artillery/etc.) and play keepaway, teleporting if they run away and using Overwhelming Strike to set up CA

And to explain, My role is Primary striker and Off-Defender and We're starting at 1st

[Yakk]

Yakk, when aegis of assault triggers, you teleport next to the mark before attacking. That's unlikely to leave you in a position where you're next to multiple enemies, unless they're all so crowded together that they're easy prey for your party's AoEs. Also, it's easy to choose avenger powers that help you reposition yourself or your foes so that you can double-roll. Believe me, in actual practice, it is NOT a problem to have two marks and one Oathie.
If you are relying on avenger powers to reposition, you are already failing as a striker.

If two foes are marked by you, they will try to reach you. Maybe your allies can soft-defend you from them (which sometimes work), but if they do reach you you are now in the "bad position" as an avenger. You now have to spend powers and actions to get out of your bad position, instead of such powers and actions to increase your damage output.

These feats:
1. Hybrid Talent (Armor of Faith)
6. Unarmored Agility
10. Battlewise
11. Double Aegis
14. Mark of Warding
16. Danger Sense
do not boost your damage output to a large extent. 6/10 feats aren't attack-boosting to a great extent (the initiative ones are marginal attack-boosting), so you'll be at best mediocre at it unless you really charop your items and powers.

And with avenger and swordmage powers to pick from, you better charop your items if you want decent damage output.

On the other hand, if your group is low enough optimization, maybe 1/round basic-attack equivalents is enough damage output with an oath.

[Tokuhara]

If you are relying on avenger powers to reposition, you are already failing as a striker.

If two foes are marked by you, they will try to reach you. Maybe your allies can soft-defend you from them (which sometimes work), but if they do reach you you are now in the "bad position" as an avenger. You now have to spend powers and actions to get out of your bad position, instead of such powers and actions to increase your damage output.

These feats:
1. Hybrid Talent (Armor of Faith)
6. Unarmored Agility
10. Battlewise
11. Double Aegis
14. Mark of Warding
16. Danger Sense
do not boost your damage output to a large extent. 6/10 feats aren't attack-boosting to a great extent (the initiative ones are marginal attack-boosting), so you'll be at best mediocre at it unless you really charop your items and powers.

And with avenger and swordmage powers to pick from, you better charop your items if you want decent damage output.

On the other hand, if your group is low enough optimization, maybe 1/round basic-attack equivalents is enough damage output with an oath.

My big 1st level move is to Mark and Oath the "squishy", then pick him off with Avenger strikes and Swordmage powers. The plan is to be highly mobile and be able to basically "shut down" encounters by targeting healers and ranged enemies, limiting their effectiveness and acting in a far more aggressive stint. The big item is a Fullblade, which I'll deck out with pluses and the occasional enchantment to boost its relative effectiveness. The cloth "armor" I'll be wearing is there to give me a slight AC boost, but it isn't my "go-to," with Unarmored Agility pulling that weight and improving my overall survivability. I'm not a Paladin who can get hit all day long, nor am I a Striker Warlock who's dealing out loads of damage with afterburn, but instead am a Striker who can "Annoy" soft targets into targeting me while the party's Defender/Controller can take care of the rest.

And the group looks to be generally low-op, running with a Paladin, a Warlord, a Drud MC Cleric, and a Bard MC Rogue

[tcrudisi]

And the fluff of this PC is the "Wandering Ronin" fluff, with the "Enemies burned down my monastery and killed everyone but me, so I want Revenge" core (his "Rival" will likely be a Githyanki Swordmage/Wizard Hybrid+Paragon Path+Epic Destiny who dual-wields Githyanki Silver Shortswords), so if y'all can play off that, groovy.

I don't get this. How does Swordmage add to this fluff? If anything, it screams out Avenger, Paladin or Cleric. Heck, I could even see some weird hybrids being added in, such as rogue, assassin, barbarian, runepriest, invoker, and monk. I'm not feeling the Swordmage shtick for this fluff, though.

Swordmages are trained wizards who apply their magic to melee combat. I'm having trouble imagining a Swordmage who was taught arcane magic at a monastery.

[Tokuhara]

I don't get this. How does Swordmage add to this fluff? If anything, it screams out Avenger, Paladin or Cleric. Heck, I could even see some weird hybrids being added in, such as rogue, assassin, barbarian, runepriest, invoker, and monk. I'm not feeling the Swordmage shtick for this fluff, though.

Swordmages are trained wizards who apply their magic to melee combat. I'm having trouble imagining a Swordmage who was taught arcane magic at a monastery.

His monastery was trained to defend against the Githyanki. Bon was a Swordmage initiate when his monastery was sacked by a Githyanki hit squad, where he watched as his family was slaughtered. It was at this point he swore vengeance upon the leader of this hit squad and Priests of Ioun took Bon in, where they felt it best to train him to harness his anger. He developed a style that blended his Arcane knowledge with his newfound faith and set out to hunt his Githyanki to the ends of the planes of existence if he had to to avenge those he lost.

So basically, Bon received roughly equal training as a Swordmage and as an Avenger and chose to combine them into his "Devoted Blade" mindset, worshiping a deity of magic and knowledge. His mind is ascetic, yet he hungers for revenge. He is a monk in all but class (personally, I think roleplaying a certain character doesn't mean you need to use classes to "be" that class, much like how an "Avenger" in fluff can be done by a paladin, fighter, ranger, or even a cleric). Bon is a being of dichotomy: Serenity yet Rage; Ascetic yet Uncontrolled. He is cold and reclusive, yet he will pursue his Oath'd target until they fall at his blade and would also likely verbally abuse someone who "stole his kill." He is the Blade Twice Broken, a being of intense rage, yet chilling calm.

[Aasimar]

You could give him a name like Kajetan...that sounds pretty polish.

[windgate]

Going to agree with the other posters in recommending not having "double aegis"

You stated that your secondary role is defender. With that in mind, the majority of your feats/choices need to revolve around your primary (striker)

You did not state which avenger "censure" you selected. I am assuming "pursuit" as that couples with a secondary defender role the best.

The build actually works fairly well as a high damage single target defender. Mark/Oath a single target. Monster has 2 choices:

(1) Stay next to and attack you (be isolated with it), your damage will be consistent but not high. Feat changes from below feats will make you really hard to hit.

(2) Move away and attack an ally. Triggers "pursuit" damage bonus and a IR teleport+Overwhelming strike for nice damage.


There are some feat adjustments I would strongly suggest.

Remove:

(1) Double Aegis (heroic Feat)
You are a secondary defender, as such the primary defender of the group should be doing the multi-marking

(2) Mark Of Warding
I know why you picked this, it is a good choice. However it is too soon. You need to balance both sides of the catch 22. As it stands, your punishment for attacking allies already includes a striker damage feature (Plus Painful Oath). Bring it in later.

Add:
(3) Heroic Feat: Cunning stalker
You now have combat advantage against enemies not adjacent to other creatures (excluding you), Start fighting an enemy not adjacent to others and the might not relocate due to it triggering the censure....

(4) Defensive Advantage
+2 AC when you have Combat Advantage (combos with cunning stalker)


Magic Items To get in future:
Shielding FullBlade
Baldric of Assault (Belt slot, sliding the target before you trigger Your punishment = Oath Double rolls + CA)



Your encounter powers need work as well, Ill make a second post.

[windgate]

Now for your Heroic Level Encounter Powers.....

Change to:
Level 1: Angelic Alarcity (Avenger -1)
Level 3: Dimensional Vortex (Swordmage-3)
Level 7: Fury's Advance (Avenger -3)

Reasoning:
You need to mark, Oath, Move and attack on your first turn. Something needs to be combo'd..

First Turn Strategy
(1) Minor Action - Oath Of Enmity, Close Burst 10
(2) Standard - Avenging Alarcity
- Shift 2 + DEX before the attack.
(3) Minor (downgrades move): Aegis Of Assault


Dimensional Vortex is an interrupt power that can be used off turn. It will flat out prevent an attack against an ally. Also gives you a defender response if you were unable to mark a target (depending on DM ruling you might also be able to force the enemy to trigger the punishment of your groups primary defender as well....)

[windgate]

Other Things:

Feats:
Improved Armor Of Faith (+1 AC)
Improved Defenses
Improved Initiative
Invigorating Pursuit (+2 AC and Damage after Charging)

Level 2 Utility:
(avenger) Holy Blessing

Leve 6 Utility:
(swordmage): Swordmage's Decree

Edit: You really need to consider whether or not it would be better to swap your primary/secondary roles as this hybrid can essentially achieve an unhittable AC by late paragon....

Avenger don't miss and get frequent crits but they struggle to get high damage outpost.

[tcrudisi]

You did not state which avenger "censure" you selected. I am assuming "pursuit" as that couples with a secondary defender role the best.

Hybrid Avengers must use the Hybrid Talent feat to pick up their censure. Since the Swordmage and Avenger both have to spend a feat to pick up their AC booster, it's better (and what he chose) to go with the AC booster. He won't be able to get the Censure.

Unhittable AC by paragon? Sure, but any light armor class can pull that off if they are willing to put in the resources. The problem is that by late paragon your AC doesn't matter nearly as much. This is when the NADs really jump up in value and surpass AC.

I agree that Double Aegis is a double-edged sword. It's both really bad and really good for this build. This build is so, so action starved that I'm not sure if it'll work out in actual play. In that regards, Double Aegis helps save him a minor action - and that is almost mandatory. But it does weaken his Oath.

He's Wis and Int primary. Dex? Ehh. Angelic Alacrity will only allow him to shift 2 squares before attacking. At least 95% of the time he will begin further away than that.

So a typical turn 1 will look like:
Move to get closer
Minor to either mark or oath
Standard action attack (or charge if need be).

Turn 2 will play out in one of two ways, depending on if he marked or oathed in turn 1.

2A (He oathed on turn 1):
Monster shifted away.
He must shift
Standard action attack
Minor to mark a couple of monsters

Note that it's turn 2 and he's not had a chance to use any minor action attacks yet. Ouch.

Or ...

2B (He marked on turn 1)
He must shift so that he's only adjacent to one monster (instead of the 2 which decided to become best buddies)
Minor action to Oath
Standard action attack

Note that it's still turn 2 and he's not had a chance to use any minor action attacks yet.

This is why I'm also thinking that he should focus on being a defender first and striker second. He's going to be too action-starved to make use of off-action attacks. Without those off-action attacks, his damage output is going to greatly suffer.

[windgate]

@tcrudisi

Looks like I made some errors with the Original Post.

First I missed the compendium entry on Avenger. I thought I saw the censure above the hybrid talent line, not below it.

Second I somehow messed the ability scores up in my head abd was thinking 18 for three stats (int, Wis,Dex) Avenging Alacrity is not a good choice...


Without having the damage boost of a censure (couple to a mark punish), I am now having hard time seeing strength to the hybrid.

Only real advice I can give would be to save a feat with using Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding (/w Bastard sword) instead of Hybrid Talent: Armor of faith + Unarmored agility.

[windgate]

After realizing my mistakes...

This whole build would be substantially better of as a

Pure Avenger (Multiclass Swordmage)

You use the Multiclass to make Fullblades an implement and gain your arcana training

The Pure Avenger can get really high defenses all on it own as well.


Pick up acolyte/Novice/Adept power feats if you want powers from Swordmage


Your party has a warlord and no Strong melee basic attackers (excluding you) You really want to synergize with that class.

[Yakk]

That costs you 2 AC and a smaller weapon die, because you lack any armor proficiency.

One handed + leather + warding = AoF + unarmored agility

The warding can invest more feats (+1 with Improved, +1/2 at paragon/epic feat with superior) to boost AC higher than AoF can.

[Tokuhara]

So I should "off-defender" as my mainstay and strike with impunity as a back-up? This makes some sense, since the Paladin is a new-ish player, so I may have to help reign in the insanity of combat.

I prefer AoF rather than actually wearing armor because of flavor reasons (less Game of Thrones, more Zatoichi).

And yes, I'm Int/Wis primary, Dexterity as a tertiary. While not a "bad" ability score, it's not my main pool for Ability Scores

And that was me pulling it off the WotC Forums

[windgate]

My advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt as I am a firm believer in the "best defense is a good offense' mentality.

Parties can do just fine with no defender.. Adding more "tanks" might make the fights "safer" but on the same token will also make fights last longer.

Think about the current party mechanics for a few minutes. Excluding you, your party ( Paladin, a Warlord, a Drud MC Cleric, and a Bard MC Rogue) Contains the following roles.

1 x Defender
2 x Leaders/Healers (+ 1/2 from Druid MC)
1 x Controller )
+ You

As it stands, this party has an overload of defense, it doesn't need any more. You need damage, LOTS of damage. Unless the druid has built himself for charging, you have no other sources of strong DPR, and fights will take forreevveerr....

If you are off engaging an enemy all by yourself, who is helping the paladin flank things?

Frankly I think you should focus 100% of your feats and power choices on finding ways to improve your basic attacks. Both the bard and warlord will love you if you do.

[Tokuhara]

My advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt as I am a firm believer in the "best defense is a good offense' mentality.

Parties can do just fine with no defender.. Adding more "tanks" might make the fights "safer" but on the same token will also make fights last longer.

Think about the current party mechanics for a few minutes. Excluding you, your party ( Paladin, a Warlord, a Drud MC Cleric, and a Bard MC Rogue) Contains the following roles.

1 x Defender
2 x Leaders/Healers (+ 1/2 from Druid MC)
1 x Controller )
+ You

As it stands, this party has an overload of defense, it doesn't need any more. You need damage, LOTS of damage. Unless the druid has built himself for charging, you have no other sources of strong DPR, and fights will take forreevveerr....

If you are off engaging an enemy all by yourself, who is helping the paladin flank things?

Frankly I think you should focus 100% of your feats and power choices on finding ways to improve your basic attacks. Both the bard and warlord will love you if you do.

So you're suggesting that I Hybrid Striker/Striker instead of Striker/Defender and focus my class features, powers, and feats to a more aggressive bent?

IE: Should I do a Dex/Wis Avenger-Monk Hybrid over a Wis/Int Swordmage-Avenger Hybrid

And weird question: Would a Revenant Dragonborn Fey Warlock-Paladin Hybrid with the Werewolf theme function well?

[Epinephrine]

So you're suggesting that I Hybrid Striker/Striker instead of Striker/Defender and focus my class features, powers, and feats to a more aggressive bent?

I doubt that's what's being suggested; there are precious few hybrid striker mechanics that are able to stack. Getting off-turn punishment reliably is a good source of extra damage. Catch-22s are the best; punishing them no matter whom they decide to attack.

[Tegu8788]

You almost never want to hybrid two Strikers together. That just means that you only get your bonus damage to half of your powers, and that you only get to use one set each turn. Unless you have access to lots of non-standard attacks, or you can take an Executioner and something else that has an MBA power.

I've never made one, but there is a way to make a Battlemind|Wizard into a very tough Striker. I don't recall the exact details, but it uses Int/Con and pumps out good damage. You may enjoy it.



If you really want to be an undead Dragonborn, that's a feat. Hybrid Paladin|Warlocks work well, one feat for Hybrid Talent (armor), another to get cursed and marked targets up to d10s, among a few others. Be aware that you have to choose between getting the armor that you'll need, or the pact benefits. So all the Fey will do is let you take Fey feats and use Fey riders right now.

The Werewolf theme is great, once you hit level 10. Before that, you can't use any of your implement or weapon powers (that's all of your powers). The bite attack will also never get curse damage, because it's not a Warlock attack.

[Tokuhara]

You almost never want to hybrid two Strikers together. That just means that you only get your bonus damage to half of your powers, and that you only get to use one set each turn. Unless you have access to lots of non-standard attacks, or you can take an Executioner and something else that has an MBA power.

I see. So a Monkvenger doesn't work in practice?


I've never made one, but there is a way to make a Battlemind|Wizard into a very tough Striker. I don't recall the exact details, but it uses Int/Con and pumps out good damage. You may enjoy it.

If you find it, feel free to hook it up here


If you really want to be an undead Dragonborn, that's a feat. Hybrid Paladin|Warlocks work well, one feat for Hybrid Talent (armor), another to get cursed and marked targets up to d10s, among a few others. Be aware that you have to choose between getting the armor that you'll need, or the pact benefits. So all the Fey will do is let you take Fey feats and use Fey riders right now.

So Armor vs. Annoy. Seems to be a pattern in Hybrid...

And the thought was a Paladin of the Raven Queen who swore to the Shadar-Kai that he'd undo the evil of the lands that plagued them.


The Werewolf theme is great, once you hit level 10. Before that, you can't use any of your implement or weapon powers (that's all of your powers). The bite attack will also never get curse damage, because it's not a Warlock attack.

The Wolf Shape is an encounter power, so I assumed that the Werebeast (wolf/bear/rat) let you effectively 1/encounter "wildshape" into your animal form (or your hybrid at 10), not constantly be in said forms.

And on a side note: Later on, I'd MC into Vampire and take the Archlich ED (just to complete the Menagerie) to be "Super Undead-Werewolf Guy of the Raven Queen"

Edit: Weird build question - Would a Revenent Sadar-Kai Sun Warpriest of the Raven Queen MC Avenger/Morninglord/Raven Consort work as a PC in this group?

[tcrudisi]

I see. So a Monkvenger doesn't work in practice?


I can't think of any hybrid double striker build that works to be on par with even a decent striker. It's the worst possible hybrid combination in the game.

Any defender|warlock build ends up working well if you optimize like crazy in its item selection. The Warlock gets some items which are warlock-only that really boost up its defenses and some nasty things that it can do with its curse.

[Tokuhara]

I can't think of any hybrid double striker build that works to be on par with even a decent striker. It's the worst possible hybrid combination in the game.

Any defender|warlock build ends up working well if you optimize like crazy in its item selection. The Warlock gets some items which are warlock-only that really boost up its defenses and some nasty things that it can do with its curse.

Well, Monkvenger was arrived at due to stat-synergy and the ability do single-target or burst efficiently.

As for the Palock of the Raven Queen, it was me looking at Revenant and seeing what could be done efficiently with Dex/Cha or Con/Dex, and the combo of Werewolf, Revenant, and Skill Training, I start with a 15 to Intimidate, making me (clearly) the scariest guy on the field.

And the Warpriest I just asked about is based on the idea of doing metric boatloads of damage with Radiant and Cold powers (using the Raven Queen-flavored powers for the Cold damage) and properly utilizing both Morninglord and Raven Consort to make him unhealthily hard to kill.

[Yakk]

I can't think of any hybrid double striker build that works to be on par with even a decent striker. It's the worst possible hybrid combination in the game.
Human Sorc King Warlock Executioner using E. Strike using a Rapier .

2d8+2d6+stat at level 1 is pretty strong using 1 feat.

Sly Flourish Backstabber rogue is 3d8+stat+stat using 1 feat with CA, which is close.

[windgate]

What I was suggesting was focusing exclusively on being a striker, forget the defender bit.

I also agree with earlier posters hybrid strikers almost never work out well (as with everything there are exceptions though ...)

Ask yourself, why do you need to be a hybrid when you can officially become part of a second class by grabbing a multiclass feat. MC'ing (excluding the Vampire MC) almost never has a downside.

With a hybrid, you need to burn a feat for hybrid talent (usually spent on armor), With a MC you burn a feat for the MC. The entry cost is the same.

Hybrids are complicated, you need to closely examine whether or not what you are gaining exceeds what you are sacrificing. You stated you are in a Low OP group, so performance isn't critical, but that being said I doubt anyone want to make recommendations that will make you weaker than simply playing a pure avenger.

With the hybrid avenger you are losing the bonus damage from the censure and need to burn a feat to regain the typical Avenger defenses. What are you getting in return?

[Tokuhara]

What I was suggesting was focusing exclusively on being a striker, forget the defender bit.

I also agree with earlier posters hybrid strikers almost never work out well (as with everything there are exceptions though ...)

Ask yourself, why do you need to be a hybrid when you can officially become part of a second class by grabbing a multiclass feat. MC'ing (excluding the Vampire MC) almost never has a downside.

With a hybrid, you need to burn a feat for hybrid talent (usually spent on armor), With a MC you burn a feat for the MC. The entry cost is the same.

Hybrids are complicated, you need to closely examine whether or not what you are gaining exceeds what you are sacrificing. You stated you are in a Low OP group, so performance isn't critical, but that being said I doubt anyone want to make recommendations that will make you weaker than simply playing a pure avenger.

With the hybrid avenger you are losing the bonus damage from the censure and need to burn a feat to regain the typical Avenger defenses. What are you getting in return?

Well, having gotten my hands on a pdf of Channel Divinity: The Raven Queen, I kinda fell in love with the Raven Queen Unique toys (Powers, Feats, Soul Reaper, Raven Knight). So as a test (on the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306443)), I decided to to a test to see what 30 would look like, and it's a tad scary for a straight-up Avenger into PP/ED, though my power selection is probably way off).

Overall, Hybrid was a thought, but having run the test figures, Hybrids are overall less effective at low levels and can (in some cases, like Wizard/Swordmage and Paladin/Warlock) be effective in late-game, but tend to suffer early on

[Yakk]

Random hybrids without a synergy plan suffer: hybrids are an advanced option, and can easily lead to sub-par characters.

Swordmage/Avenger is a nearly random hybrid. The primary of the Avenger is nearly completely useless to the Avenger (exception: one paragon path), and the primary of the Swordmage is only marginally useful to the Avenger. They are forced to burn a feat to recover armor, and don't get any benefits beyond a pure-class one or the other for defence.

Their play-styles are, by default, different. The avenger is hunting down and defeating lone foes: the swordmage is kiting enemies, convincing them to come to the swordmage, while locking down a different foe far away.

Action economy wise, both burn minor actions to "do their thing", which means that you are minor action starved.

About the only bit of synergy is that overwealming strike can be turned into a basic attack with a feat, and then you can avenger-strike your mark punishment, if you had the actions to both mark and oath the target prior to them violating the mark. But the swordmage mark is ideally used from far away, while the oath is ideally used up close, so now you want to be both near and far from your double-cursed foe, which sort of blocks this synergy.

You could oath the foe you are near, and mark a foe far away: but now you end up far away from your oath target whenever your marked foe violates your mark, and the above synergy doesn't happen (because you don't get double-rolls on your marked foe). And unlike a standard swordmage, you cannot mark yet another foe and reposition far away from it, triggering another catch-22, until your first marked foe dies, and the same with limited re-oathing capabilities.

Now, anything can be made to work in a medium-op game, so long as you are willing to distort the build to be effective despite the core part of the build working at cross purposes, and in a low-op game the above build will be more than good enough (being a half-striker or a half-defender on any one round) with almost anything above random feat choices.

I wouldn't want to play it in epic, however, because any game where a low-op version of this is par or above will have grindingly slow combats, unless your DM reworks the rules to reduce monster HP.