Were-Octopus Racial Abilties

[CyberThread]

So besides base creatures,


Someone that is a were version of this gets

Ink Cloud (EX), a 10 x 10 x 10 "cloud" that as a free action gives you total concealment once per turn.

Jet(EX) , move 200ft backwards No AoO.

Improved Grab (EX) If you use one of your arms as an attack, you can inniate a grapple attempt after the attack, as a free action without AoO.

Weapon Finesse


Can change your skins colors granting +4 Hide check

+10 on escape artist checks

+8 swim check , and swim as a movement speed.


2LA, 2HD


Do you think anything is off in whatI just listed?

[John Longarrow]

I believe the Jet and Cloud only work in water.

[Segev]

Two claws and a bite. (Not 5 arms, oddly enough, but 2 claws and a bite, just like any other hybrid-form lycanthrope.)

[CyberThread]

I believe the Jet and Cloud only work in water.



Except for the weirdness of rules, as they do not state they work in water(or only in water), then you can use them on land.

[John Longarrow]

CyberDrag,

If you are DMing, do what ever your group finds works for them. If you try to argue this as being "How the Rules are" to most DMs, expect them to tell you "Only in the water".

This would be better in the bad rules thread than in anything serious.

[XionUnborn01]

Ink Cloud (Ex)
An octopus can emit a cloud of jet-black ink 10 feet high by 10 feet wide by 10 feet long once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment, which the octopus normally uses to escape a losing fight. All vision within the cloud is obscured.

Jet (Ex)
An octopus can jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 200 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting.

Straight from the SRD. Though I wouldn't let that fly at my table because I think it's obvious that RAI would have it only work underwater, RAW doesn't put any stipulation on water being required.

[CyberThread]

"How the Rules are" to most DMs, expect them to tell you "Only in the water".

This would be better in the bad rules thread than in anything serious.



If you are at a table of min/maxers and you are going to pull out were-template, you best better believe, I will try to wring out ever little drop from the animal :P

[Sith_Happens]

From a similar thread nine weeks ago:


I once had a DM shoot down my wizard with an octopus familiar idea when I pointed out the ink loophole and declared my intention to escape bad situations by holding my pet above my head and shouting "BEHOLD, THE OCTOPUS!" before disappearing in a cloud of chemical darkness.

You're welcome.:smallbiggrin:

[Gemini476]

Did you know that real squid can use their jets to fly out of the water, with the maximum recorded distance being 55 metres?

[Icarusthefallen]

Did you know that real squid can use their jets to fly out of the water, with the maximum recorded distance being 55 metres?

Utilizing the water as a counteractive force for the propulsion. That aside, I love the idea and although RAI would indicate water should be a given, if the DM decides he/she doesn't like it then suggest to him that the INK CLOUD instead be similar to a ranged touch attack or a cone effect as it would be expelled in a liquid form (which generally disperses in water to form the cloud but since it is not in water stays viscous). That would at least solve part of the debate. Or as in other articles on these forums there is always the "It is a magical effect. Therefore magic trumps everything logical." Good luck to you though.

[Segev]

The RAW are clear, and include the silly notion that you have claws and a bite but no arm attacks in hybrid form along side the Jet and Cloud abilities.

If you feel the RAW are flawed because ocotopi are "weird," then you have to make a custom Lycanthrope template for them anyway. May as well re-tool it to do whatever you want the rules to do.

If you are going to be a stickler for RAW, though, yeah, you get some funky effects. But really...I'd kind-of expect an octopus- or squid-themed monster that walks on the land to spew ink clouds and possibly launch itself backwards on jets of water, so it's not wholly unreasonable.

Look at Squid, the character from Generator Rex.

[123456789blaaa]

As Sith_Happens said, there was another thread on the greatness of the were-octopus some time ago. I gave it the largest entry out of all the others in my "best lycanthrope animals and builds thread":

Octopusses (octopus,octopi?) are freakin awesome. For only 2HD you get a bunch of great abilities that work both inside and (by RAW) outside of water. A problem is that wereoctopi gain the aquatic subtype in both hybrid and animal form (which is where you'll be doing the fighting).

There are a couple of ways to circumvent this.The first is to apply the amphibious template from stormwrack to the base humanoid/giant. It's 0LA and all you sacrifice is -2 Dex. The second option is to "...get your shape change as a free action, shift, attack, and shift back, all in one turn..."(suggestion by TypoNinja). Two ways to do this are:

1. getting to the 5th level of the warshaper prestige class and taking the quick change feat (both the prestige class and the feat allow you to change as a move action, they stack to make changing a free action).

2. getting to 10th level of the black blood hunter prestige class.

The third option (suggested by Littha) is "Anyway, easiest way around the Aquatic problem is playing as a race that already has the Amphibious quality like Merfolk They are another LA on top of what you already have but the stat mods are pretty nice.

Aventi from Stormwrack are LA 0 with amphibious but have nothing else of note other than a +1 caster level to water spells."

The amphibious template is the quickest option (besides playing as a race with the amphibious quality) (and it preserve your chars race) but if you can start at a level when you can use the other options, do so (an exception is . playing a race with the amphibious quality, it saves you -2 Dex at the cost of locking you into a race (which may be subpar). Easiest doesn't always mean best). Dex is the octopusses only good stat modifier plus changing as a free action is awesome anyway.

The advantages of the octopus are many. They include: 30 ft swim speed,a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks, a +10 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks, a. +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard (It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check even if distracted or endangered and it can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line) 81 arm that's still nice for being an extra natural attack (unsure if it retains it in hybrid form), Improved grab without size limits that automatically deals bite damage if it succeeds (I reccomend black blood hunter so you can use it in hybrid form), The ability to emit a cloud of jet-black ink 10 feet high by 10 feet wide by 10 feet long once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment and is usable in all your forms (by RAW you can both this ability and the jet ability out of water), weapon finesse as a bonus feat, and the ability to jet backward once per round as a full-round action, at a speed of 200 feet. It must move in a straight line, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity while jetting and this ability can be used in any form.You could also use this to "fly":Jet 200' into the air.
Drop distance = land movement speed (much slower)
Jet 200' further at an angle to adjust height.
???
Profit!
To land, adjust height to 5'. Flop back on land for 0 damage. (You need a ring of feather fall for the trick to work since "you can't fly with jet for more than 2 rounds normally, and you will take massive falling damage. drop distance is 150 ft. on the first round, and 300 ft. on all subsequent rounds. dmg pg. 20 and dmg pg. 148 provide examples, although no general falling rule is mentioned in the phb, the dmg, or the rules compendium." ). (suggested by 2xMachina)

The only dark spot on the octopusses shining lamp of awesomesauce is that it's only stat above 12 is Dex (17) however, this synergizes well with getting weapon finesse.

Oh and if you use the sword and fist splatbook, an octopus gets an extra grapple modifier for its extra limb.

Note: Littha suggests squid as an alternative to the octopus. He says: " The difference between Squid and Octopus is an extra HD for +2 Str mostly. You also get 1 more natural armor and 30ft bonus to your swim speed. Nothing spectacular"

[Morgarion]

Octopusses (octopus,octopi?) are freakin awesome.

Octopodia, actually.

[Segev]

I looked, but am not finding, where you gain the subtypes of the animal part of the creature. I'm not sure you ARE "Aquatic," even in octopus form. Which has the odd issue that you can't breathe water in your animal form, but I could be missing something.

Also, where do you get "+1 arm" out of it? The animal gives five "arm" attacks, but none of that would translate to hybrid and human form.

[123456789blaaa]

I looked, but am not finding, where you gain the subtypes of the animal part of the creature. I'm not sure you ARE "Aquatic," even in octopus form. Which has the odd issue that you can't breathe water in your animal form, but I could be missing something.

Also, where do you get "+1 arm" out of it? The animal gives five "arm" attacks, but none of that would translate to hybrid and human form.


Alternate Form

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

•The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
<snip>


I looked at the octopus statblock and it says "arms". By RAW that counts as one natural attack. It's like how the bear statblock says "claw" in the Attack section and says "2 claws" in the Full Attack section. To get multiple natural attacks of the same type, there needs to be a number in front of it.

[CyberThread]

good thing humanoids still have "arms" :P

[Segev]

Gah, you're right. I was getting the +5 mentally in front of it, thinking they had (for some strange reason) 5 arms attacks.

It looks like they have one "arms" attack. Which probably means they slap with all 8 and try to cling, counting as one attack.

Thing is, their Hybrid form still has 2 claws and a bite. Lycanthrope is oddly specific about that.

Good catch on the aquatic subtype; I only looked in Lycanthrope, not in the generic alternate form rules. Thanks for pointing it out!

[123456789blaaa]

Gah, you're right. I was getting the +5 mentally in front of it, thinking they had (for some strange reason) 5 arms attacks.

It looks like they have one "arms" attack. Which probably means they slap with all 8 and try to cling, counting as one attack.

Thing is, their Hybrid form still has 2 claws and a bite. Lycanthrope is oddly specific about that.

Good catch on the aquatic subtype; I only looked in Lycanthrope, not in the generic alternate form rules. Thanks for pointing it out!

Funnily enough I made that same mistake in my lycanthrope thread :smallsmile:.


Attacks

Same as the base creature or base animal, depending on which form the lycanthrope is using. A lycanthrope in hybrid form gains two claw attacks and a bite attack as natural weapons.
<snip>


So in animal form you get the animals natural attacks. It says you gain two claw attack and a bite attack in hybrid form but doesn't say anything about the other natural attack from either "pure" form...

And no problem :smallbiggrin:.

[CyberThread]

So the question remaining still is....


Is this the sort of thing that requires the swordsage/whatever PRC's to get the most out of it?

[123456789blaaa]

So the question remaining still is....


Is this the sort of thing that requires the swordsage/whatever PRC's to get the most out of it?

If you want to get the most out of it, I'd actually reccomend totemist. You see on one hand the were-octopus has free concealment and its only high stat mod is Dex. This points towards a roguish-type character (like a swordsage :smallwink:). On the other hand it has a free natural attack and Imp Grab without size limits. This points towards a grappler. Stealth and grappling is an uncommon combination to say the least. Totemist is probably the best class to do both with minimal fuss.

[CyberThread]

swordsage has grapple/throw plus shadow hand, with the total cover you get being in a floating ink cloud, I think that could easily count as being in a shadow, and being able to insta teleport anytime you want, once a minute.



My last headache am trying to get around is a good base class, most grapplers are not pure humanoid or giant.

[123456789blaaa]

swordsage has grapple/throw plus shadow hand, with the total cover you get being in a floating ink cloud, I think that could easily count as being in a shadow, and being able to insta teleport anytime you want, once a minute.



My last headache am trying to get around is a good base class, most grapplers are not pure humanoid or giant.

Swordsage has grappling abilities? Where? Setting Sun focuses on tripping for its throws, not grappling.

[CyberThread]

gotta do something with those unarmed strikes, with your arms. Grapple builds are made with feats and spells, another factor is you have to be able to get near that which you are trying to grapple.

An as much as I hear talked about MOI and do not like using it, a totmist would be no more then a dip for those extra arms.

[Segev]

While we could make some RAW hay over hybrid forms "gaining" 2 claws and a bite attack, I think this is one of those situations where we have to look at the examples. Werebear is a good one: bears have 2 claws and a bite, natively. Hybrid-form werebears also have only 2 claws and a bite, not 4 claws and 2 bites. So it's pretty clear they don't add to the animal's natural attacks. It is unlikely they add to the humanoid's, either, though we don't have specific examples to the contrary (as the base humanoid/giants used all lack explicit natural attacks).

But while examples can be wrong, in this case, where we'd be trying to hang an awful lot on the word "gain" and the examples are all quite consistent, I think we aren't really stepping into RAI territory to say that "gain" here refers to a base assumption of "no natural attacks before they 'gain' these."

If we go into RAI territory, I would be more inclined to push for the natural attacks to get altered in hybrid form when they're so very different from those of the animal. But then again, that could alter the ECL calculations. (I don't think so, though; consider how many HD you have to add for them to get much out of this variation.)

[Myou]

Octopodia, actually.

As far as I can tell, that isn't even a word. The correct pluralisations are 'octopuses' or 'octopodes'. Some dictionaries also accept 'octopi' (which has never been correct) due to it's popularity.

'Octopoda', which seems to be what you were going for, is not the pluralisation of 'octopus', but rather the taxonomic order to which they belong.

[Chronos]

Totemists don't have any more stealth ability than any other class. At most, at low op levels, they can save themselves a few thousand gold on an item with +hide/MS. Just spend the money and make it easy on yourself.

[Morgarion]

As far as I can tell, that isn't even a word. The correct pluralisations are 'octopuses' or 'octopodes'. Some dictionaries also accept 'octopi' (which has never been correct) due to it's popularity.

'Octopoda', which seems to be what you were going for, is not the pluralisation of 'octopus', but rather the taxonomic order to which they belong.

Oops. You're totally right. It's 'octopodes'. I was conflating the Greek plural χταπόδια xtapoðia and the English word. But they're all acceptable, so whatever.

[123456789blaaa]

While we could make some RAW hay over hybrid forms "gaining" 2 claws and a bite attack, I think this is one of those situations where we have to look at the examples. Werebear is a good one: bears have 2 claws and a bite, natively. Hybrid-form werebears also have only 2 claws and a bite, not 4 claws and 2 bites. So it's pretty clear they don't add to the animal's natural attacks. It is unlikely they add to the humanoid's, either, though we don't have specific examples to the contrary (as the base humanoid/giants used all lack explicit natural attacks).

But while examples can be wrong, in this case, where we'd be trying to hang an awful lot on the word "gain" and the examples are all quite consistent, I think we aren't really stepping into RAI territory to say that "gain" here refers to a base assumption of "no natural attacks before they 'gain' these."

If we go into RAI territory, I would be more inclined to push for the natural attacks to get altered in hybrid form when they're so very different from those of the animal. But then again, that could alter the ECL calculations. (I don't think so, though; consider how many HD you have to add for them to get much out of this variation.)

I seem to recall a bit of RAW about needing multiple limbs for gaining claws and bite attacks. No source though so meh, you're probably right.


Totemists don't have any more stealth ability than any other class. At most, at low op levels, they can save themselves a few thousand gold on an item with +hide/MS. Just spend the money and make it easy on yourself.

Yeah I was thinking of the multiple soulmelds that grant Hide/MS bonuses but forgot that they're all competence bonuses for some reason :smallannoyed:.

Still, it's a low-investment way to gain a bunch of grappling prowess and other cool things so I'd still recommend a dip.

[Myou]

Oops. You're totally right. It's 'octopodes'. I was conflating the Greek plural χταπόδια xtapoðia and the English word. But they're all acceptable, so whatever.

Indeed! Sorry if I was a bit curt though, I had been up for about 30 hours at that point. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Every time I see "octopodes" in this thread, my brain first parses it as "octopoodles." Then I see it correctly, but it still initially registers as some bizarre eight-legged fluffy pet.

[Jeff the Green]

As far as I can tell, that isn't even a word. The correct pluralisations are 'octopuses' or 'octopodes'. Some dictionaries also accept 'octopi' (which has never been correct) due to it's popularity.

'Octopoda', which seems to be what you were going for, is not the pluralisation of 'octopus', but rather the taxonomic order to which they belong.

As all octopuses are members of Octopoda and all members of Octopoda are octopuses, 'octopods' is also an acceptable plural (and 'octopod' an acceptable singular). It comes with not having a common name with a separate derivation than the genus Octopus.