OOTS #921 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Mutant Sheep]

Huh. Laurin is one of those villains.:smallamused::smalltongue:

"Oh yeah. Wizard." Might be my new favorite V description.:smallbiggrin:

[Chess435]

Heh, I love it. :smallcool:

[DaggerPen]

"Oh yeah. Wizard."

Perfect.

But it seems to me that they missed a great opportunity to steal a few and ride to freedom on them. Oh well.

And good to see Tarquin's allies not signing on with his "story nonsense." And some more backstory on them, too. It hadn't even occurred to me that Tarquin and Malack might not be the only parents on the team, for some reason.

EDIT: WAIT! That Chain Lightning targeted the soldiers alone, not the dinosaurs they were riding on. We may see the Order riding out off into the sunset yet...

[Thokk_Smash]

Man, it feels good to have the party back together again ("Oh, yeah. Wizard." heheh)

And it seems Tarquin's fellows aren't as on board as he would like. Mild foreshadowing, perhaps?

[Dumbledore lives]

Wizards just aren't very fair against mooks. It's also interesting to see Tarquin's party dynamics, they're a bit different than expected.

[Phlebas]

Looks like there's a bit of tension between Team Tarquin. This makes me feel that it could be in fighting that does Tarquin in.

[atatassault]

I love how Tarquin's party are all like "Meh, Whatever".

[Gray Mage]

It's nice to see that Tarquin's allies can and do call him out. :smallamused:

Also, "Oh yeah. Wizard." Might be one of my favorite lines as of recent times. It's elegant in its simplicity.

[Grey Watcher]

Huh. Laurin is one of those villains.:smallamused::smalltongue:

I really like the variety of motivations within Team Tarquin. And the fact that they all seem to consider his "Look at Me, I'm Genre Savvy" attitude to be an annoyance to be put up with. It also neatly underscores that Malack really was Tarquin's best friend, seeing as Malack seemed least bothered by Tarquin's eccentricities.

[ella ventic]

EDIT: WAIT! That Chain Lightning targeted the soldiers alone, not the dinosaurs they were riding on. We may see the Order riding out off into the sunset yet...

...but what would Blackwing say to that?

Also: the use of the word "clade" in the strip makes me unreasonably happy.

[Amphiox]

Still getting "least evil of the bunch" vibes from Laurin here....

A cladistics joke at the end!* Woot!

*Doubly so since pterosaurs and birds sharing the clade Archosauria is not really that common knowledge....

[DaggerPen]

Also, we got the name for the Catlady - Jacinda. We didn't have her name before, right?

[Sharoth]

~LAUGHTER~ Awesome!!! Go V!!!

[CoffeeIncluded]

Huh. Looks like Team Tarquin may not be as hunky-dory as we thought.

I cannot wait to see what will happen with this.

[internisus]

I love the mundane talk, perhaps all the more because Tarkie would rather dwell on his story nonsense. He's so fun to see frustrated.

Miron is only in it for himself, it would seem, but I'm starting to like Laurin. She's got her common sense turned towards the pragmatic but tempered by a personal motivation that's refreshingly modest.

I want a bidet. Stupid America.

[homeslice]

Interesting to see the conversation between tarquin and his... acquaintances?

It certainly is nice to learn more about the others in his group.

[DaggerPen]

...but what would Blackwing say to that?

Also: the use of the word "clade" in the strip makes me unreasonably happy.

Clearly, they are freeing a number of his enslaved brethren (or cousins several times removed, at any rate) from a life of forced military servitude.

And anyway, I just counted and exactly six pterodons were conveniently relieved of their riders on-panel. That's one for everyone, not including Spiky, who can take care of himself.

[Flame of Anor]

So it looks like some of Tarquin's team members have the detachment that he doesn't know he lacks...

[Forrestfire]

Loving V finally getting a chance to kill stuff. "Oh yeah. Wizard" was hilarious.

[Nettlekid]

In case anyone was wondering why Rich benched V during all the ruckus up to this point? "Oh yeah. Wizard."

[Fjolnir]

This is a really good strip because it lays out dynamics that were only hinted at before...

[Grey Watcher]

I'm not convinced the dialogue here heralds a great sundering of Tarquin's party. It does provide a neat explanation for why Miron and Laurin, both of whom have supernatural powers, aren't intervening, fleshes out their overall motivations, and helps establish that Tarquin's allies really are a team of equals, rather than his lackeys (even if Tarquin himself sometimes forgets that).

[Amphiox]

So now we know the catwoman's name (or at least we *think* we do....), and get more hints that she is an Assassin.

Enjoyed seeing Miron take Tarquin down a peg, diminutive nickname and dismissive attitude and all. Tarquin was certainly due.

[Burnerpower]

Another awesome page. Interesting to see that Tarquin's allies aren't as on board with his plans, heck they might not even indulge in any evil for the evulz like Tarquin does. I guess Tarquin was wrong to think he could manipulate his team so easily, I doubt they would have accepted Nale.

[Madgod's Lament]

Just created my account, and I have to say, this quite succinctly covers a lot of speculation regarding Tarquin's... friends?

Also loving Elan's "Oh yeah, wizard"

Loving the progress on the strip by the way.

[Xianthe]

I'm liking Laurin more and more the more I learn about her.

[Solara]

Well there's that interaction between Team Tarquin I've been curious to see...and just as delightful as I was hoping. Nice to see not everyone just goes along with Tarquin's meta genre-obsesed BS. And 'she thinks I'm just a well-connected interior designer' wins this strips Laugh-Out-Loud award from me. :smallbiggrin:

And here I thought for a moment the title meant bad news for V...silly me, V's a wizard! Interesting to see Fly being used up as well, one last possible option for the 'escape through the rift' camp...though it's looking less and less like that will be even remotely needed. Sooo nice to see that smug confidence wiped off Tarquin's face, if only temporarily.

[WindStruck]

In case anyone was wondering why Rich benched V during all the ruckus up to this point? "Oh yeah. Wizard."

This, a million times. :smallbiggrin:


...well, actually depending on how many spells V has available, maybe that only 20 times or so before he's reduced to a useless commoner again? :smalltongue:

[Mike Havran]

Nice, more insight into Team Tarquin.

Looks like the Order will manage. The army alone wouldn't be able to beat them and the pteranodons seem to be unoccupied at the moment...

[SavageWombat]

We now know that Tarquin's team works with him solely because his scheme works. They're not loyal followers, swayed by his personal charisma, but mercenary adventurers pursuing the bottom line. Nice to know.

[Marlowe]

"Hannah is a plumber". :smallsmile:

So we got confirmation that Myron is a caster, the name of the cat lady (and semi-confirmation of her class) and a very revealing conversation.

A a rare sign of self-doubt from Tarquin in the first panel. Guess he's inclined to be more open in front of his own team.

[TruDivination]

Wow, that title freaked me out. But now we know the rouge of Tarquin's teams name, as well as the fact that Team Tarquin is is calling him out on the story BS.

Edit: Also, if Tarquin really intended for this to be a tragic execution scene, he shouldn't have given such a dramatic order to the army. He should have gotten close enough for Roy to let his guard down, then turned his back, utter a semi-threatening line, and then a hidden signal for the archers to shoot Roy and the others full of arrows at close range with sad music playing in the background. Really, Tarquin was just asking for a big climatic scene here. The sun's still up, and they're in a brightly lit desert. And I'm over analyzing this, so I'm gonna shut up now.

[Hamiltonz]

I just introduced a new reader to the comic. I'm happy that the first comic they see has a wizard acting like a wizard.

[ChaosArchon]

Wow the forum called it... Lauren and Miron won't do jack to help Tarquin. Well this will be interesting >:)

PS Miron is quickly becoming one of my favorite characters that isn't a protagonist, spin off series maybe

But seriously of all of TT I think he might be the only one that may be Neutral (in it for number one) rather than plain Evil.

[Amphiox]

It is ironic to see V, after all her recent character development along the lines of using his powers in more subtle ways than mindlessly blasting stuff, back to blasting stuff.

Doubly ironic in that this time, for once, it may well be the best way for V to employ her powers right now....

[internisus]

Interesting to note that Tarquin wants to kill Roy not just to push Elan forward as team leader but to give him a vengeance motivation to come back and fight his father. Tarkie doesn't think right now that Elan will come back and fulfill the narrative destiny he's created for him. This might be the first hint of insecurity he has ever displayed!

But isn't it at odds with his understanding of himself as the final villain of the story? Or does it just mean that he hasn't finished solidifying that role yet? Did he plan to have Roy killed to elevate himself as Elan's villain all along, only pretending that his motivation was to force his son to step into the leadership position?

[Grey Watcher]

...

But seriously of all of TT I think he might be the only one that may be Neutral (in it for number one) rather than plain Evil.

Really? Because Laruin's "I'm only doing this to give my daughter a better life" strikes me as the most Neutral sounding rationale that any of TT has given for what they do.

[CrispyCriminal]

Very insightful look on Team Tarquin. Good to see some of them are more down to earth, though lacking in the care department.

At the same time it kind of makes Tarquin seem creepy. Or at least now I can't stop imagining one of those insane bum preachers inheriting an empire.

The bum preacher who takes his rants seriously despite never practicing them because he preaches all the time.

[thegreatentropy]

Now I really wanna se the spoils of "Hannah, the Plumber"...:tongue:

P.S.: I don't think working for the weepies (even if as a freelancer plumber) is having a good life far away from all this.

[Psyren]

Ooh, Miron is a spellcaster of some kind. Curioser and curioser...

"Likes money" isn't much to go on, but I'll keep an eye on him.


I really like the variety of motivations within Team Tarquin. And the fact that they all seem to consider his "Look at Me, I'm Genre Savvy" attitude to be an annoyance to be put up with. It also neatly underscores that Malack really was Tarquin's best friend, seeing as Malack seemed least bothered by Tarquin's eccentricities.

Malack stood to gain the most from them, seeing as how his alliance with Tarquin was - to him, anyway - just a blip in the long sequence of glory that would be his unlife. So it's natural that he'd have the most patience for it since the others are mortal.

[SaintRidley]

Hannah the plumber needs to become bonus content.

[Amphiox]

Poor, poor Tarquin's been failing a lot of diplomacy checks lately.

[Haluesen]

Well this was interesting. I too am liking the look into the rest of Tarkie's group. That bit of fleshing out was something I didn't realize I was looking forward to.

Oh man so intense! How much more can happen??? :smallbiggrin: So excited to keep reading!

[Psyren]

We're not gonna start the whole "That Guy With A Halberd" thing about Hannah are we?

[Giggling Ghast]

Considering that Miron was the one who sent Haley the ransom note, it does seem like simple Greed is his primary motivation.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm not convinced the dialogue here heralds a great sundering of Tarquin's party. It does provide a neat explanation for why Miron and Laurin, both of whom have supernatural powers, aren't intervening, fleshes out their overall motivations, and helps establish that Tarquin's allies really are a team of equals, rather than his lackeys (even if Tarquin himself sometimes forgets that).

Yeah, I'm almost positive that the conversation we just saw is just the other side of "business before pleasure." Making The Tale of Elan the Bard more dramatic is not business.

[t209]

Wow! Nice shot, V.

[Amphiox]

Really? Because Laruin's "I'm only doing this to give my daughter a better life" strikes me as the most Neutral sounding rationale that any of TT has given for what they do.

Even more than that. Her "away from all this" suggests that at least on some level she actually disapproves of what they do.

[SterlingAvenger]

Well hot d***. Looks like V is getting a chance to really flex those wizardly muscles. Also the discussion between Tarquin and his party made me grin widely. They clearly are well aware of his particular conceits and are less than over awed by him.

[ChaosArchon]

Really? Because Laruin's "I'm only doing this to give my daughter a better life" strikes me as the most Neutral sounding rationale that any of TT has given for what they do.
Thats actually quite a fair point, perhaps Laruin is Neutral and Miron or maybe I just want Miron to be Neutral... either way I'd love for Laruin and V to have a chat as both casters of different types (mythical vs psionic) and both (maybe) Neutral alignments.

[Gift Jeraff]

Yet another instance of Tarquin not comprehending Good--he thinks Elan might not yet have enough motivation to come back and fight him, as if ruining people's lives wasn't reason enough.

Poor shoulder pad guy. Only appeared on 1 page and now he's the only one without a name. Watch him be the most important to the overarching plot.

EDIT: What is with this strange desire to default every member of Tarkie's party to Neutral? Miron tortured that woman into marrying Tarquin. Though Laurin has a decent case for Neutrality, I suppose.

[skaddix]

Laurin seems to be neutral maybe True Neutral.
Mirion is in it for the Gold.
Seems this team is not a bunch of yes man.

[Cynric]

Heh, another great play-on-words title. Good work Giant.

Wow, things really are falling apart quickly for Tarquin. I wonder if his place in this comic is going to end sooner than would be expected, perhaps in a Julius Caesaresque assassination. "Et tu, Jacinda?..."

[Muenster Man]

That seems to snuff out the whole idea of "Tarquin & co. are just waiting to swoop in and finish the order off" while simultaneously making it unlikely that the idea of "Tarquin's teammates are going to get rid of him because he's wasting resources/going against the team motto/acting even more irrational than usual/etc" will come to be.

[Amphiox]

Hannah the plumber needs to become bonus content.

What are the chances she could be seen fixing some pipes in Elan's Mom's bar?

[Valanarch]

It's nice getting a member of Team Tarquin that I actually like (Laurin) again, after Malack said that he would kill thousands of people each day for Nergal and Tarquin killed Nale just to advance the plot.

[Karen]

So much for Tarkin's team interfering in V's brutal butt-kicking...

Still wasting a lot of gate saving time. They may have to count on a falling out with Team Evil.

[Copperdragon]

I would have preferred Elan riding the Dinosaur and Haley shooting... :smalltongue:

[Valanarch]

Yet another instance of Tarquin not comprehending Good--he thinks Elan might not yet have enough motivation to come back and fight him, as if ruining people's lives wasn't reason enough.

Poor shoulder pad guy. Only appeared on 1 page and now he's the only one without a name. Watch him be the most important to the overarching plot.

I think that he knows that Elan will try to get around making him go down in history. He is trying to kill Roy because Elan might then slip up and act in anger (once again, Star Wars comparisons abound).

[Grey Watcher]

Even more than that. Her "away from all this" suggests that at least on some level she actually disapproves of what they do.

True. She definitely doesn't mean "better" in the sense of more affluent or powerful. :smallsmile:


Thats actually quite a fair point, perhaps Laruin is Neutral and Miron or maybe I just want Miron to be Neutral... either way I'd love for Laruin and V to have a chat as both casters of different types (mythical vs psionic) and both (maybe) Neutral alignments.

Well, if Haley can be both greedy and Chaotic Good, I don't see why Miron's greed should disqualify him as Neutral. It's just I think if you're going to read him as non-Evil, than Laurin certainly qualifies as well.

EDIT:
What is with this strange desire to default every member of Tarkie's party to Neutral? Miron tortured that woman into marrying Tarquin. Though Laurin has a decent case for Neutrality, I suppose.

I'd forgotten about that! Yeah, Miron's probably Evil, and even if she doesn't have the official Assassin PrC (slitting someone's throat in their sleep is just a coup de grace and doesn't require any class features), Jacinda sure seems to love killing. So I guess Shoulder Pads might be Neutral, given that we've got no information on him whatsoever.

[Peelee]

This single strip has got me more excited for a Team Tarquin prequel book than all of Tarquin's strips combined. I'm really loving their dynamic. Don't know how feasible that prequel would be, as its not too related to the main plot, but now I'm hoping. Great strip!

[Demolator]

I like how even in disagreements, Team Tarquin doesn't seem to let it get between them too much.

[internisus]

It is ironic to see V, after all her recent character development along the lines of using his powers in more subtle ways than mindlessly blasting stuff, back to blasting stuff.

Doubly ironic in that this time, for once, it may well be the best way for V to employ her powers right now....

I don't think so. She's mindfully blasting stuff right now. Her primary drive at the moment is the knowledge that her self-doubt, hesitation, and equivocation in the face of the consequences of her power-hungry actions led her to let her party down when they needed her most. She is determined to make up for that weakness now. It is a continuation of her growth.

Her previous development dealt with the ineffectiveness of her power and insistence upon acting apart from her friends, but now she is realizing that, when the consequences of that foolishness came around, she responded with cowardice that cost the Order a great deal (Durkon, the destruction of the gate).

If there is an irony here, I think that it is how V's first failing was about her relationship with power while her second was about her relationship with weakness. After she plays her role in saving the Order during this battle, comes clean, and openly acknowledges her fears and failures, I believe she will be a very strong character, and the way in which she is using her magic right now—tactically, alongside her team, and also without the hesitation of prior regrets—is a big part of that.

[Valanarch]

Thats actually quite a fair point, perhaps Laruin is Neutral and Miron or maybe I just want Miron to be Neutral... either way I'd love for Laruin and V to have a chat as both casters of different types (mythical vs psionic) and both (maybe) Neutral alignments.

I agree, especially because they both did evil things for their families.

[Excise]

Great comic. Lots of good insight into TT. It's great to see that they have their own motivations and aren't just extensions of Tarquin's will.

[Ramien]

Even more than that. Her "away from all this" suggests that at least on some level she actually disapproves of what they do.

Or it could just mean that she wants to keep her daughter safe and not subject to the dangers an adventurer of any alignment faces.

And if Team Tarquin isn't going to involve themselves in the fight, I think there's no more reason to suspect any entrance to Rift will happen any time soon.

I do love that little smile on Laurin's face when Miron complemented her daughter's bidet. Honest parental pride right there.

[Gnome Alone]

Yay! We know another name of Tarquin's cabal! Jacinda the catfolk rogue.
Yay! We know Miron is a crass little tool.
Yay! Potential for airborne rogue strafing Sneak Attacks.

[ChaosArchon]

I'd forgotten about that! Yeah, Miron's probably Evil,

Actually you could argue he did it for the money and the Plan (no not The Plan, silly RC). I dunno, while torture is bad don't good and neutral characters do it sometimes? Or would that only be acceptable in a black and grey world for anyone but an Evil person to do it?

[RaggedAngel]

I'm really enjoying watching V cut loose. I will be 'that person' and note that Chain Lighting actually strikes a primary target and then branches out to secondary targets; but in this case, V is still able to kill all the mooks with the lightning, and so the way it's drawn really is just an artistic interpretation.

The dynamic within Tarquin's party is a lot more interesting than I thought it would be based on flashbacks. When Tarquin is telling the story, it's more of "Tarquin and Pals" and less of "The Evil League of Evil".

[Anarion]

This closed up a lot of loose ends, and I, for one, like seeing V kicking butt. I do hope we don't get too overblown on the wizard thing, since Haley could surely have taken those riders almost as easily, and in nearly the same amount of time, give or take a round.

Motivations and dealings amongst team Tarquin is interesting. Especially the "story nonsense" comment. It shows they're more mercenary than it may have seemed from earlier explanations.


Or it could just mean that she wants to keep her daughter safe and not subject to the dangers an adventurer of any alignment faces.

And if Team Tarquin isn't going to involve themselves in the fight, I think there's no more reason to suspect any entrance to Rift will happen any time soon.

I do love that little smile on Laurin's face when Miron complemented her daughter's bidet. Honest parental pride right there.

It implies that Laurin's motivations for engaging in the activity she engages in for Tarquin is not because she enjoys what she's doing. She's doing it for someone else in order to help that other person. Whether that involves her outright disapproval or merely a desire to keep her own child safe, it shows us that Laurin isn't in it for love of the game.

[Amphiox]

Well hot d***. Looks like V is getting a chance to really flex those wizardly muscles. Also the discussion between Tarquin and his party made me grin widely. They clearly are well aware of his particular conceits and are less than over awed by him.

Just a wild guess here, but perhaps Tarquin wasn't always the calculating chessmaster (that being a skill that often requires time to learn and perfect). Perhaps, in his youth, he was more like his two sons, narratively aware, but goofbally and incompetent, and perhaps his teammates remember what he was once like.

[Wanderer]

Ah, exactly the sort of reaction I was expecting and hoping for from the allies. Tarquin's wasting time and resources on a personal venture of dubious value. As long as he's just wasting his resources they'll let it go, but they see no reason to lift a finger to help, and several reasons to not do so.

[Amphiox]

Or it could just mean that she wants to keep her daughter safe and not subject to the dangers an adventurer of any alignment faces.


I think that is a less likely interpretation for the simply reason that "all this" is in present tense, and in the present, Laurin, Tarquin and their team are not, in fact, adventurers anymore.

They are politicians.

[AdmiralCheez]

Tarquin is really having some bad luck today. He lost his best friend, one of his sons, and a whole bunch of troops dedicated to his "story thing" that his allies find silly. He also lost a potential source of great power and knowledge. Meanwhile, his surviving son and team are putting up a better fight of defiance than he imagined. I'd actually be worried that Tarquin might snap soon.

[The_Weirdo]

Actually you could argue he did it for the money and the Plan (no not The Plan, silly RC). I dunno, while torture is bad don't good and neutral characters do it sometimes? Or would that only be acceptable in a black and grey world for anyone but an Evil person to do it?

No, torture is Evil. Unless you're going for a "Banality of Evil" thing AND ignoring that Evil doesn't need to be twirling-the-moustache Evil all the time, it takes someone Evil to torture people. That goes double for someone that's torturing an innocent in the name of a dictatorship (bearing in mind that ALL dictatorships are Lawful Evil). This isn't even the usual "torturing a criminal to prevent a tragedy" scenario, which isn't realistic anyways and would, yes, STILL make the torturer Evil. This is "torturing someone innocent for the greater glory of a dictatorship". So, yeah. Myron is Evil. You don't serve a dictatorship without being so and you doubly don't TORTURE for it without being so.

[Amphiox]

It implies that Laurin's motivations for engaging in the activity she engages in for Tarquin is not because she enjoys what she's doing. She's doing it for someone else in order to help that other person. Whether that involves her outright disapproval or merely a desire to keep her own child safe, it shows us that Laurin isn't in it for love of the game.

This is also consistent with the way that the Giant has drawn Laurin in prior strips. In all the flashback scenes where she has been depicted, she has never been shown with any hint of any expression that might indicate that she was enjoying what they were doing.

[DaOldeWolf]

The more I learnt about Laurin, the more she looks like a neutral. But its probably best to wait for more evidence, especially seeing how Malack turned out.

Pretty good chapter, I love when the titles refernce two completetly different situations.

[Almaseti]

And THAT is why V gets benched all the time.

As good as this looks, the Order could still be in trouble if Tarquin goes down there to kill Roy personally. I mean, Elan could make himself into a human shield, but that doesn't guarantee Tarquin can't disable/get past him.

Kind of amused about the teammate reactions.

[Ramien]

I think that is a less likely interpretation for the simply reason that "all this" is in present tense, and in the present, Laurin, Tarquin and their team are not, in fact, adventurers anymore.

They are politicians.

Actually, they're lobbyists. Which, admittedly, is all the more reason for distaste at the actions being taken and reason to keep her daughter well away.

But they're still running empires at war where people die... not a safe place for a daughter

[Guy Incognito]

You know, I'm reminded of Tarquin's first appearance, when he and Elan were swapping cliches and V and Malack just dismiss the whole thing. I think it's possible that Tarquin is actually less the group's undisputed leader and more its Elan; generally well-liked, but too eccentric for most of its members to actually get behind him unless he seems to have a really good idea.

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Excellent new strip yet again, thanks.

Love the "Oh, yeah. Wizard!" and the insight into Team Tarquin and Blackwing's "And that's what you get...". Just brilliant.

Also, it is nice to see V in action again. both with V's chain lightning and with the "Hardly, nor may I ever feel so again..." response to Haley.

Excellent. BAM!:smallsmile:

[genderlich]

Phew! Judging by the title, and the pre-scrolling view of the first three rows before I read it, I was afraid Laurin was going to disintegrate Haley or something. Then I read the strip. :smallbiggrin:

[The_Weirdo]

It implies that Laurin's motivations for engaging in the activity she engages in for Tarquin is not because she enjoys what she's doing. She's doing it for someone else in order to help that other person. Whether that involves her outright disapproval or merely a desire to keep her own child safe, it shows us that Laurin isn't in it for love of the game.

Mind you, that Laurin's motivations are noble doesn't necessarily mean her alignment isn't Evil. We are, after all, very much talking about someone that builds and destroys facade dictatorships, killing, hurting and maiming lots of people in the process. You can't prop up a dictatorship without being Evil.

[Iranon]

Possible spelling error: Is "pterandon" instead of "pteranodon" intentional?

[Bluepaw]

Tarkie???

Love love love this strip. Complex character dynamics, a cameo by the Best Fact (BIRDS ARE DINOSAURS), and a reference to the Weeping King on his [Bidet] of Regrets? Ace.

Also YUSS PLEASE for a team Tarquin prequel book....

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Valanarch]

Mind you, that Laurin's motivations are noble doesn't necessarily mean her alignment isn't Evil. We are, after all, very much talking about someone that builds and destroys facade dictatorships, killing, hurting and maiming lots of people in the process. You can't prop up a dictatorship without being Evil.

I'd say you can. V isn't evil, despite casting Familicide and disintegrating Kubota. Why would supporting a dictatorship be enough to make Laurin evil?

[davidbofinger]

[...] of all of TT I think [Miron] might be the only one that may be Neutral (in it for number one) rather than plain Evil.

He seems to have helped torture Tarquin's fiancee. Hard to see what benefit he derived from that. But who knows.

[Grey Watcher]

No, torture is Evil. Unless you're going for a "Banality of Evil" thing AND ignoring that Evil doesn't need to be twirling-the-moustache Evil all the time, it takes someone Evil to torture people. That goes double for someone that's torturing an innocent in the name of a dictatorship (bearing in mind that ALL dictatorships are Lawful Evil). This isn't even the usual "torturing a criminal to prevent a tragedy" scenario, which isn't realistic anyways and would, yes, STILL make the torturer Evil. This is "torturing someone innocent for the greater glory of a dictatorship". So, yeah. Myron is Evil. You don't serve a dictatorship without being so and you doubly don't TORTURE for it without being so.

Heck, he's not even doing it for The State. He's doing it for Tarquin, personally (who I'm sure paid him a hefty sum for his trouble). Giving Tarquin another notch on his marital belt doesn't do anything to help their Grand Scheme. It's just a personal job for Tarkie.

[Amphiox]

Actually, they're lobbyists. Which, admittedly, is all the more reason for distaste at the actions being taken and reason to keep her daughter well away.

But they're still running empires at war where people die... not a safe place for a daughter

A lobbyist is actually a subtype of politician, really. Which is why it is so easier for one to become the other, and vice-versa.

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears. Which means she is *not* actually physically in a safe place away from empires at war where people die. Particularly when part of the plan entails that the Empire of Tears needs to be regularly overthrown and replaced.

Which implies that Laurin's "away from all this" means more than mere physical location.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

And again we see why V is so often benched. This is Roy's story, how he struggles to overcome events. This is NOT V's story how s/he just blasts everything hir path. Because that would be a dull story indeed...

[aabicus]

Like others in this thread, I'm predicting a "Flight of the Pterosaurs" escape for our heroes.

[Gift Jeraff]

Actually, I'm gonna run with my "Shoulder Pad Guy is more significant than he seems" idea:

Tarquin isn't the official leader of the party. Rather, he pulls their strings like he does with his patsies. Shoulder Pads is the real leader, and this is why he's visibly annoyed when Tarquin is telling them about his empire scheme (he doesn't like being told what to do by a former employee), and why Shoulder Pads isn't involved in Tarquin's latest plot (Tarkie lacks the rank to tell him what to do, esp. if it concerns a personal matter).

[The_Weirdo]

I'd say you can. V isn't evil, despite casting Familicide and disintegrating Kubota. Why would supporting a dictatorship be enough to make Laurin evil?

V cast Familicide in a moment of rage during which V was under the misguided impression that her actions weren't her own, against an undoubtedly Evil dragon that had just threatened and nearly killed V's family in a horrible fashion, not to mention destroying their home.

Laurin routinely, of her own free will, without any emotional distress and under no impression whatsoever that her actions aren't solely her own, in a perfectly calm state of mind, works for and with an empire that oppresses people en masse that never did her any harm, sending other people to their deaths and playing games with the lives of an entire continent.

V cast Familicide once. Laurin does the same before breakfast.

[davidbofinger]

Looks like there's a bit of tension between Team Tarquin.

That's to be expected. They were adventurers together, then went their own separate ways, then Tarquin got them back together, then they lived apart as members of the same team. There's a lot of scope there for people to get their own ideas and out of the habit of following orders.

[Breccia]

"Oh yeah, wizard."

I have SO got to use this!

[orrion]

Wouldn't Chain Lightning have hit the mounts too?

[Ashiver]

So maybe they'll fly away on Pteros, wonder how many crossbow guys are still alive though. That seems risky. Of course they could fly into the rift, but soul destruction is a pretty big risk itself I don't think Roy wants to take no matter what. Tarquin's party certainly isn't going to force that.

Tarquin's situation seems different than how he explained it as well, he doesn't appear to be in charge of all the nations. Simply collaborating them and running one, more like a king of a single nation secretly allied with other nations.
I hope nothing terrible happens to Hannah now, Tarquin seems to be the grudge holding type who hates being defied or even slighted.

[Valanarch]

V cast Familicide in a moment of rage during which V was under the misguided impression that her actions weren't her own, against an undoubtedly Evil dragon that had just threatened and nearly killed V's family in a horrible fashion, not to mention destroying their home.

Laurin routinely, of her own free will, in a perfectly calm state of mind, works for and with an empire that oppresses people en masse that never did her any harm, sending other people to their deaths and playing games with the lives of an entire continent.

V cast Familicide once. Laurin does the same before breakfast.

When did Laurin kill a quarter of a species in an instant? Doing evil acts in retribution does not make them any less evil. If V's actions weren't evil, Laurin's shouldn't be counted as evil either.

[skim172]

Interesting. It appears Team Tarquin is nothing personal, just business. Laurin and Myron do not, it seems, aspire to the same grand goals as Tarky - Laurin's words make me think she might not even be Evil-aligned. Myron discusses profitability, not goals or personal matters.

They're not friends, they're co-workers. This isn't Team Tarquin at all - it's Tarquin & Co., LLP. They're a group of guys who came up with an idea for a joint enterprise that would mutually benefit all of them and they've found success. At most, I'd guess they generally try to minimize conflict. But Tarquin's big dreams are apparently not the group's agenda.

It's like any workplace. You've got that one co-worker who justs wants to make money; for another, this is the one step in an ambitious career plan; still another sees this job as secondary to her real priority, her kids. There's the slacker who doesn't really want to be here, and that one guy who truly loves this job and can't imagine doing anything else.

And c'mon, what workplace doesn't have that one psycho megalomaniac who wants to take over the world? (Usually your supervisor :smallwink:) I know my last job certainly had a pale undead creature, draped in black, who struck fear in the hearts of everyone he met (usually in a basement room somewhere, wearing a Slayer hoodie, never talks to anyone, and you sometimes wonder if he'll torch the place someday - maybe doesn't drink blood, just gallons of Red Bull). :smallbiggrin:

[EclipseDarkSun]

Laurin might not enjoy doing evil things, but she's no better than neutral - her motivation is like a crime boss wanting his daughter to know nothing about his business and thus neither judge him harshly or be a target for his rivals (or more likely, the police). Doesn't mean that crime boss is even a neutral person overall, let alone good.

[Silva Stormrage]

Really enjoyed reading more into the dynamic, and Laurin has a point. Tarquin pretty much the reason why Mallack died and only because Nale was his son. if someone else tried to kill Malack the would be assassin would be dead 30 times over.

[Ramien]

A lobbyist is actually a subtype of politician, really. Which is why it is so easier for one to become the other, and vice-versa.

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears. Which means she is *not* actually physically in a safe place away from empires at war where people die. Particularly when part of the plan entails that the Empire of Tears needs to be regularly overthrown and replaced.

Which implies that Laurin's "away from all this" means more than mere physical location.

I read that as being both physically and otherwise away from all this - she did say she wanted a 'good life' for her daughter. I figured the job for the Weeping Key was a one-off, because it would help her daughter's career. But living anywhere near any of the ruled kingdoms isn't what most people would consider 'a good life' and Laurin seems smart enough to know that, which is why I read her as I did.

[Rising Phoenix]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

[The_Weirdo]

When did Laurin kill a quarter of a species in an instant? Doing evil acts in retribution does not make them any less evil. If V's actions weren't evil, Laurin's shouldn't be counted as evil either.

I never - EVER - argued that V's actions weren't Evil. V killed a quarter of a species due to low population. Assuming a population of black dragons of 4000, V killed 1000 black dragons - plus countless other beings, yes. We can safely put V's body count in the 2000s. What Tarquin and co. do creates a *lot* more deaths per - say - year than this. That answers the matter of scale, but there's something else you forget.

Habit.

You see, committing one Evil act, even if it's a SERIOUSLY Evil act, doesn't make someone Evil. Committing Evil acts on a daily basis, supporting a regime that kills people, sends soldiers to their deaths and tortures dissidents? Yeah, that does.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd say you can. V isn't evil, despite casting Familicide and disintegrating Kubota. Why would supporting a dictatorship be enough to make Laurin evil?

V is evil. Probably the most evil character in the strip. I don't think even Xykon's in the same order of magnitude for body count.

All her "redemption" crap has been bs, as if she should even be allowed to atone for what she's done, she hasn't even tried very hard. If she were trying to be a better person, she wouldn't have forced the kobold to open up wide and...well, you know what was for dinner. With a blank expression as she off-handedly mentions his mental screams of anguish. Tormenting him to the point where he tried to just commit suicide on the traps of the dungeon in order to be free.

And then, when the order needed her the most, she goes flying off on a big whiny emo pity party, "oh woe is me!" while the OotS gets handed one disaster or calamity after another. Only for V to swoop in and pull a Big Damn Heroes moment after the worst of it (avoiding the all-caster party; smashing the gate; Xykon skirmish and the elemental) is all over -- they were handling the army just fine -- and once again be the center of attention. So much for karma.

[RMS Oceanic]

This reminds me a lot of 854, and reinforces the whole band of equals thing going on.

I'm assuming 922 will be the Order together again for the first time in 80 strips. Will they plan a way out of this? Or maybe the dead horse I'm beating will twitch and Elan's plan will come into play...

[Gift Jeraff]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

Pterosaurs are in the same clade as birds, dinosaurs, and all currently living reptiles.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida

[EclipseDarkSun]

Good point Rising Phoenix -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterosaur
Pterosaurs (/ˈtɛrɵsɔr/, from the Greek πτερόσαυρος, pterosauros, meaning "winged lizard") were flying reptiles of the clade or order Pterosauria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_birds
Modern phylogenies place birds in the dinosaur clade Theropoda. According to the current consensus, Aves and a sister group, the order Crocodilia, together are the sole living members of an unranked "reptile" clade, the Archosauria.

Hmm.. from the pterosaur wiki article, it links to this which contradicts the above -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida
Sauropsida ("lizard faces") is a group of amniotes that includes all existing reptiles and birds and their fossil ancestors. Sauropsida is distinguished from Synapsida, which includes mammals and their fossil ancestors.

Guess he's right after all?

Seems it depends where you draw the line.

[DaggerPen]

A lobbyist is actually a subtype of politician, really. Which is why it is so easier for one to become the other, and vice-versa.

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears. Which means she is *not* actually physically in a safe place away from empires at war where people die. Particularly when part of the plan entails that the Empire of Tears needs to be regularly overthrown and replaced.

Which implies that Laurin's "away from all this" means more than mere physical location.

It probably does, but I also got the impression that her daughter was living in a more stable area, possibly traveling in now and again for safer jobs to "consult" with her well-connected interior decorator mother, with Mommy in the background making entirely sure that nothing goes wrong.


Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

HE WENT TO ART SCHOOL, OK? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9152698&postcount=5)

(Also, what Gift Jeraff said.)

[The Giant]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.

The velociraptors and allosaurus on the ground on the other hand are part the evolutionary radiation that gave rise to birds.

They are absolutely related to pterosaurs. Just not as closely as they are to dinosaurs.

EDIT: Yes, Sauropsida is what I had in mind. All the humans belong to Synapsida, so relative to them, Blackwing and the pteranodons are clade brothers.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Whew - like other posters have mentioned, I was very worried to when I saw the comic title - glad to seeing it was figurative.
Also, love the interaction between Tarquin and acquaintances!

[Amphiox]

Birds are not related to pterosaurs.


Yes, in fact, birds are.

Pterosaurs, crocodylians, dinosaurs and birds, along with a few other weird reptile types, are all part of the Subclass Archosauria.

Blackwing as as closely related to the Pteranodons as the Allosaurs are related to the Pteranodons.

[Amphiox]

V is evil. Probably the most evil character in the strip. I don't think even Xykon's in the same order of magnitude for body count.


If you read SoD, you'll note that Xykon's personal kill-count is very likely in the tens of thousands.

If anything, it is V is not in the same order of magnitude as Xykon.

[The_Weirdo]

Yes, in fact, birds are.

Pterosaurs, crocodylians, dinosaurs and birds, along with a few other weird reptile types, are all part of the Subclass Archosauria.

Blackwing as as closely related to the Pteranodons as the Allosaurs are related to the Pteranodons.

Something else to bear in mind is as follows: Blackwing is no paleontologist. If he were wrong about this one thing, that wouldn't exactly make us go "WHAT????!!!1!!ONE!".

[davidbofinger]

Laurin routinely, of her own free will, in a perfectly calm state of mind, works for and with an empire that oppresses people en masse that never did her any harm, sending other people to their deaths and playing games with the lives of an entire continent.

If Laurin were, say, lawful neutral, she might have bought into Tarquin's claim that this is the only way to stop the constant warfare. We don't know enough about her.

It depends strongly on what definition of evil alignment you're using. If I can trust Wikipedia then the 3rd edition definition is:




Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others.

Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if

doing so is convenient or
if it can be set up.

Others actively pursue evil, killing

for sport or
out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.





Tarquin qualifies as Type 1A and 2A evil (not sure what 1B means).

We don't know enough about Laurin to evaluate her for Type 1; Laurin perhaps qualifies as Type 2B evil, but again we don't know her motives well enough. In any case it's not as clear cut as Tarquin.

Miron probably qualifies as Type 1A, maybe 2A, maybe 2B.

Jacinda seems fairly clearly 2A and 2B, may qualify on Type 1 as well.

The greatest deficiency in this definition of evil is Type 2B - it makes the evilness of the person depend, not on their actions or motives, but on the alignment of their master. I believe someone (Roy?) made a very similar criticism of the paladin code depending on the actions of those you travel with.

[darlingt]

Whew! I was so afraid when I saw the title. Then again, I just finished A Storm of Swords, so I was expecting something unexpectedly tragic.

V's got such good timing, doesn't ve?

[137beth]

Laurin is awesome. So is V.

Now how will the V-haters keep arguing that V is a hindrance to the party? Eh, they'll probalby just make excuses about how casting chain lightning doesn't count for some reason.

[RMS Oceanic]

Also I liked V's continued acknowledgement of their situation with the never feeling safe line.

[Rising Phoenix]

Pterosaurs are in the same clade as birds, dinosaurs, and all currently living reptiles.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida


See the

tree (http://biology.unm.edu/ccouncil/Biology_203/Images/Phylogeny/cladogramDino.gif)

Birds are not descended from pterosaurs. They share a common very distant ancestor but that's it. They are more closely related to the velociraptors and allosaurs.

It's like saying that say ungulates are closely related to primate within the mammalian tree.

Anyhow, my biologists rant is over.

Carry on.


Yes, in fact, birds are.

Pterosaurs, crocodylians, dinosaurs and birds, along with a few other weird reptile types, are all part of the Subclass Archosauria.

Blackwing as as closely related to the Pteranodons as the Allosaurs are related to the Pteranodons.

This is incorrect. Allosaurs share a lot more anatomical features with birds than they do with Pterorsaurs.

[The_Weirdo]

If Laurin were, say, lawful neutral, she might have bought into Tarquin's claim that this is the only way to stop the constant warfare. We don't know enough about her.

I'm sorry, but accepting whole countries oppressed, people tortured, and so on "for a good cause" doesn't make a person not Evil. How many despots have you ever seen or read about that went "Yeah, I did this because I wanna have power over my fellow man" instead of "I do it to preserve/achieve the people's safety/prosperity/etc."?

In fiction, I can't really think of an example beyond the Party in Nineteen Eighty-Four. Heck, if anything, they were at least HONEST to themselves about their nature.

Laurin's motivations may be noble. Her actions are, effectively, Evil.

[Tvtyrant]

I like how even in disagreements, Team Tarquin doesn't seem to let it get between them too much.

Yeah, it reminds me of the Malack page where Tarquin apologized and they made up in a single strip. Reminds the reader that they are humans, not just walking balls of evil.

[The Giant]

See the

tree (http://biology.unm.edu/ccouncil/Biology_203/Images/Phylogeny/cladogramDino.gif)

Birds are not descended from pterosaurs. They share a common very distant ancestor but that's it. They are more closely related to the velociraptors and allosaurs.

I never said they were descended, or that they were closely related. I said they shared a clade, which they do: Sauropsida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida). That clade is not shared by the person he was talking to, who was a human. So the statement was accurate.


It's like saying that say ungulates are closely related to primate within the mammalian tree.

Ungulates do share a clade with primates. That is a true statement.

[davidbofinger]

pterosaurs and birds sharing the clade Archosauria is not really that common knowledge....

Archosaur is a pretty large clade, though. Arguably Blackwing has more in common with pteranodons because of their aerial way of life than he does because of a distant shared ancestry. I mean, he almost may as well shout out, "We're all amniotes, can't we just get along?"

Check: Didn't see any lizardfolk pteranodon riders anyway but are lizardfolk archosaurs? I've seen them described as "primitive reptiles". :smallwink:

[DaggerPen]

Archosaur is a pretty large clade, though. Arguably Blackwing has more in common with pteranodons because of their aerial way of life than he does because of a distant shared ancestry. I mean, he almost may as well shout out, "We're all amniotes, can't we just get along?"

Check: Didn't see any lizardfolk pteranodon riders anyway but are lizardfolk archosaurs? I've seen them described as "primitive reptiles". :smallwink:

Yeah, but think how many fewer punchlines he'd get if he started thinking of himself in such a taxonomically narrow category. Besides, Blackwing likes to think of himself as a stealth flying dinosaur. He's not going to let a little taxonomic distance keep him from classing himself in with the giant actual flying dinosaurs.

[The_Weirdo]

Archosaur is a pretty large clade, though. Arguably Blackwing has more in common with pteranodons because of their aerial way of life than he does because of a distant shared ancestry. I mean, he almost may as well shout out, "We're all amniotes, can't we just get along?"

Check: Didn't see any lizardfolk pteranodon riders anyway but are lizardfolk archosaurs? I've seen them described as "primitive reptiles". :smallwink:

A lizardfolk pteranodon rider would be like a man riding a horse. Or, well, a pegasus.

[ti'esar]

Wow. Have we ever seen Tarquin express self-doubt before?

This really has been a lousy day for him, and it's not over yet.

[Gift Jeraff]

See the

tree (http://biology.unm.edu/ccouncil/Biology_203/Images/Phylogeny/cladogramDino.gif)

Birds are not descended from pterosaurs. They share a common very distant ancestor but that's it. They are more closely related to the velociraptors and allosaurs.

Blackwing didn't say anything about direct descendants, or that he cares more about the pteros than the dinos. I figured he's talking to all the dino/ptero riders in general.

[The_Weirdo]

I never said they were descended, or that they were closely related. I said they shared a clade, which they do: Sauropsida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida). That clade is not shared by the person he was talking to, who was a human. So the statement was accurate.



Ungulates do share a clade with primates. That is a true statement.

Quick and honest question. IIRC, you graduated in Arts. Do you have a major/minor/whatever (not to sound rude, it's just the university/graduation system in Brazil works differently) in Biology or are you just *very* thorough with your research? o_O

[Amphiox]

For those who care, the cladistics of the last few comics are as follows:

Blackwing and the Velociraptors are the most closely related. Their clade, together, are the Coelurosaurs.

The Allosaurs are in a different branch and are more distantly related. The larger clade formed by the Allosaurs plus the Coelurosaurs are the Theropods.

The next closest related is Tarquin's Triceratops. It's an Ornithosuchian, and thus not a Theropod, and the larger clade it belongs in along with the Theropods is the Dinosaurs.*

The next closest relatives are the pteranodons. They (pterosaurs), along with the Dinosaurs, belong in the clade of Archosaurs.

The next closest relatives are the lizardfolk. Assuming they are in the same group as lizards, then they are not Archosaurs, but belong in the larger clade of the Diapsids. (Reptiles is a polyphyletic grade and therefore not a valid cladistic classification) or Sauropsids. There isn't any representative of a Sauropsid present that is also not a Diapsid, with the possible exception of Kilkil, if his kind had greater affinity with turtles than with lizards (unlikely).

Speaking of I'm not sure whether Kilkil would fit in Archosauria or elsewhere in Sauropsida.

The next closest relatives would include Roy, Durkon, Belkar, etc, ie all the humans, dwarves, halflings and so forth, who are mammals/synapsids. Synapsids and Diapsids together belong to the larger clade of Amniotes.

I have no idea where Spiky fits into this classification scheme....

*Yes, this means that birds are more closely related to some types of dinosaurs than those dinosaurs are related to certain other types of dinosaurs. It also means that cladistically birds ARE dinosaurs.

[RMS Oceanic]

For those who care, the cladistics of the last few comics are as follows:

Blackwing and the Velociraptors are the most closely related. Their clade, together, are the Coelurosaurs.

The Allosaurs are in a different branch and are more distantly related. The larger clade formed by the Allosaurs plus the Coelurosaurs are the Theropods.

The next closest related is Tarquin's Triceratops. It's an Ornithosuchian, and thus not a Theropod, and the larger clade it belongs in along with the Theropods is the Dinosaurs.*

The next closest relatives are the pteranodons. They (pterosaurs), along with the Dinosaurs, belong in the clade of Archosaurs.

The next closest relatives are the lizardfolk. Assuming they are in the same group as lizards, then they are not Archosaurs, but belong in the larger clade of the Diapsids. (Reptiles is a polyphyletic grade and therefore not a valid cladistic classification) or Sauropsids. There isn't any representative of a Sauropsid present that is also not a Diapsid, with the possible exception of Kilkil, if his kind had greater affinity with turtles than with lizards (unlikely).

Speaking of I'm not sure whether Kilkil would fit in Archosauria or elsewhere in Sauropsida.

The next closest relatives would include Roy, Durkon, Belkar, etc, ie all the humans, dwarves, halflings and so forth, who are mammals/synapsids. Synapsids and Diapsids together belong to the larger clade of Amniotes.

I have no idea where Spiky fits into this classification scheme....

*Yes, this means that birds are more closely related to some types of dinosaurs than those dinosaurs are related to certain other types of dinosaurs. It also means that cladistically birds ARE dinosaurs.

Spiky fits into the Licet Malum Externus clade.

[The_Weirdo]

I have no idea where Spiky fits into this classification scheme....

Well, let's see. Spiky is a vertebrate. Maybe a mammal, maybe not, most likely not. Go from there.

[Mad Humanist]

Blackwing clearly has no ranks in taxonomy or paleontology. Pteranodons are not dinoaurs. Unless Blackwing was talking about sauropsida, he was just talking out of the last children's picture book he fliapped through.

[Amphiox]

This is incorrect. Allosaurs share a lot more anatomical features with birds than they do with Pterorsaurs.

And that is why I did not say anything of the sort.

I said that the degree of relationship between Allosaurs and Pteranodons is the same as the degree of relationship between Birds and Pteranodons.

[The Giant]

Quick and honest question. IIRC, you graduated in Arts. Do you have a major/minor/whatever in Biology or are you just *very* thorough with your research? o_O

I spent a fair amount of time researching the wording of this punchline, specifically because I knew someone would find a way to criticize it.

[The Giant]

Blackwing clearly has no ranks in taxonomy or paleontology. Pteranodons are not dinoaurs. Unless Blackwing was talking about sauropsida, he was just talking out of the last children's picture book he fliapped through.

*Sigh* This is going to be brought up every five posts for the rest of the thread, isn't it?

[The_Weirdo]

I spent a fair amount of time researching the wording of this punchline, specifically because I knew someone would find a way to criticize it.

That you had to do so shows rather disturbing things about the Internet, then, actually. o_o

Edit: And it must be frustrating that it seemingly did not reach the intended results. :smalltongue:

[Rising Phoenix]

I never said they were descended, or that they were closely related. I said they shared a clade, which they do: Sauropsida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida). That clade is not shared by the person he was talking to, who was a human. So the statement was accurate.



Ungulates do share a clade with primates. That is a true statement.

Oh! I read 'clade' as in tribe (a.k.a. a society of rather closely related individuals), not a scientific clade. So yes Blackwing is correct with that statement.

As for mammals that's true. (http://research.amnh.org/paleontology/perissodactyl/f/mammal_tree2.png) and using the term 'clade' biologically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clade) was a poor choice on my part when I meant to say 'they are not closely related'.

[Amphiox]

Archosaur is a pretty large clade, though. Arguably Blackwing has more in common with pteranodons because of their aerial way of life than he does because of a distant shared ancestry. I mean, he almost may as well shout out, "We're all amniotes, can't we just get along?"


Large is a relative term when talking about clades. Archosauria is small compared to Amniota, Tetrapoda, Vertebrata, Mollusca, Arthropoda.

Archosauria is positively infinitesimal when compared to the biggest clade of all, which is Life.

Archosauria is a smaller clade, both in absolute size and in grade-rank (ie its members are more closely related to one another) than Insecta. If it is reasonable to say that "all insects are closely related" then it is even more reasonable to say that "all archosaurs, ie birds and pterosaurs, are closely related".

[Forikroder]

interesting seems like the giant is going with "falling out in team tarquin"

[Amphiox]

*Sigh* This is going to be brought up every five posts for the rest of the thread, isn't it?

Naturally.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0167.html

[DR27]

*Sigh* This is going to be brought up every five posts for the rest of the thread, isn't it?Don't worry, bio undergrads will learn in time (provided they stay in science) that science jokes are a thing to be celebrated, not picked apart even when correct.

[hamishspence]

I never said they were descended, or that they were closely related. I said they shared a clade, which they do: Sauropsida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauropsida).

They also share a more inclusive clade:
Avemetatarsalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avemetatarsalia)

Which is to say- within Archosauria (dinosaurs, pterosaurs, crocodiles, etc) pterosaurs and dinosaurs are the most closely related.

[The_Weirdo]

interesting seems like the giant is going with "falling out in team tarquin"

There's a difference between a falling-out and two people deciding not to help in a situation where not much is at stake for the whole group and/or showing mild annoyance towards a friend. Myron actually discusses a bidet with Laurin and Tarquin corrects him about the name of the thing right afterwards. They aren't exactly about to attempt to kill one another.

[Draz74]

But it seems to me that they missed a great opportunity to steal a few and ride to freedom on them. Oh well.
I'm rooting for this. A dashing escape riding away on flying dinosaurs? A dream come true for Elan. And one that I actually approve of. (As opposed to becoming Elanicalicus ...)


Looks like there's a bit of tension between Team Tarquin. This makes me feel that it could be in fighting that does Tarquin in.
Maybe. But for me, the main take-away here is that the theory that Tarquin isn't actually the leader of his party, just like Elan isn't leader of OotS, is looking quite favorable. Good call to those who have been espousing it.


Also, we got the name for the Catlady - Jacinda. We didn't have her name before, right?


Ooh, Miron is a spellcaster of some kind. Curioser and curioser...
Two main pieces of information on the party. I'm still feeling like three full casters breaks the pattern of OotS-verse though. So I'm still thinking Arcane Trickster or something for Miron.


Considering that Miron was the one who sent Haley the ransom note, it does seem like simple Greed is his primary motivation.
Good connection. Nice work.

EDIT:

*Yes, this means that birds are more closely related to some types of dinosaurs than those dinosaurs are related to certain other types of dinosaurs.

Not too surprising, when you consider that the label of "dinosaur" applies to creatures that spanned something like 100 million years of earth's history. I.e. we're chronologically closer to the late Cretaceous dinosaurs than they are to the early dinosaurs.

[Amphiox]

Well, let's see. Spiky is a vertebrate. Maybe a mammal, maybe not, most likely not. Go from there.

Vertebrate would be several ranks up from Amniota.

It goes Amniota<Tetrapoda<that term for the lobe-finned fishes that I can't spell<Vertebrata<Chordata<Animalia....

But I have no idea where Spiky fits within the vertebrates. The first thing is to find a Spiky egg and see if it has an amniotic membrane....

Or, for a simpler experiment, plop it in the desert sun and see if it dies out quickly or slowly.

[The_Weirdo]

Naturally.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0167.html

Oh, and by the way, Giant, I must correct your biology on 167: Rhinos can't fly! :smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

There's a difference between a falling-out and two people deciding not to help in a situation where not much is at stake for the whole group and/or showing mild annoyance towards a friend. Myron actually discusses a bidet with Laurin and Tarquin corrects him about the name of the thing right afterwards. They aren't exactly about to attempt to kill one another.

This. It seems like much of the point of the conversation here was to disprove both "Tarquin's allies don't carry how much he inconveniences them to pursue his private obsessions" and "Tarquin's allies are going to turn on him as a loose cannon".

[Forikroder]

There's a difference between a falling-out and two people deciding not to help in a situation where not much is at stake for the whole group and/or showing mild annoyance towards a friend. Myron actually discusses a bidet with Laurin and Tarquin corrects him about the name of the thing right afterwards. They aren't exactly about to attempt to kill one another.

it all starts with a single crack, the lack of teamwork and passive aggressiveness about Tarquins actions are the framework of how this book will come to a close

[Leolo]

I really like the irony that this scene shows how much Tarquin is right regarding Elan.

Once he was sad for not saving Therkla and wanted to be prepared next time. Or tried to force his father to stop his plans. When Elan is alone he steps up and can be a hero.

And when the group is arround he is getting carried while the big guys and girls play their games.

It is not even as if he could not help and has to be inactive. It is "i step back, let Roy or V handle this".

I think we will see the moment when this changes sooner or later, because if they really want to fight Xykon and Redcloak every group member is needed.

[Amphiox]

Oh, and by the way, Giant, I must correct your biology on 167: Rhinos can't fly! :smalltongue:

Ah, but that rhino didn't fly.

It fell.

It fell real well.....

[Gift Jeraff]

Also interesting to note that Laurin refers to the Empire of Blood as "[Tarquin's] own country." I would have thought that, since they move around, they would view all 3 countries as their own. Perhaps not all of them move? Tarquin always stays in what is presently the Empire of Blood, Laurin stays in Sweat, and maybe the unnamed guy stays in Tears. Malack moves around because he had to oversee everything (since he was planning to inherit all 3), and Miron/Jacinda are just mercenaries with no real attachment to their territories.

[The Zoat]

Vaarsuvius used Thundershock!

It was super effective!

[HZ514]

interesting seems like the giant is going with "falling out in team tarquin"

Why would anyone think this based on #921? The party is clearly having a normal, argumentative discussion. There is no sign whatsoever of any "falling out" based on one not-at-all-hostile disagreement. Neither Miron nor Laurin have any real objection to Tarquin's tactics/actions, they just don't have any interest in inserting themselves into the situation to help him reach his own tangential goals. There is no rift, separate people are allowed to have separate opinions and take separate actions. That's how life among equals works. On top of all that, the idle banter in strip 6 clearly shows there's no lasting malice among the party based on Miron and Laurin refusing to assist Tarquin. It's just another talk between old colleagues, nothing more and nothing less.

At any rate, I love seeing V back in the game, baby! Always a blast to watch when V does get to join the battle. Also thoroughly enjoyed the exchange among Tarquin & co.

[The_Weirdo]

This. It seems like much of the point of the conversation here was to disprove both "Tarquin's allies don't carry how much he inconveniences them to pursue his private obsessions" and "Tarquin's allies are going to turn on him as a loose cannon".

Basically, they're Seinfeldian Evil, almost.

The cast in "Seinfeld" never did too-horrible things to one another and always forgave minor slights among themselves while fully recognizing their companions were basically egotistical self-centered people that might or not be insane. Conversely, they aren't about to lift a finger to help one another unless the need is relevant and there's no risk for them (or there's a reward for them). One member of their party just died and they are there, talking about bidets. They aren't a festering party of intrigue and self-implosion waiting to happen. They aren't a well-oiled Evil machine under an overlord. They just. Don't. Care. :smallwink:

[Rising Phoenix]

What have I done...:smallbiggrin:


For those who care, the cladistics of the last few comics are as follows:

Blackwing and the Velociraptors are the most closely related. Their clade, together, are the Coelurosaurs.

The Allosaurs are in a different branch and are more distantly related. The larger clade formed by the Allosaurs plus the Coelurosaurs are the Theropods.

The next closest related is Tarquin's Triceratops. It's an Ornithosuchian, and thus not a Theropod, and the larger clade it belongs in along with the Theropods is the Dinosaurs.*

The next closest relatives are the pteranodons. They (pterosaurs), along with the Dinosaurs, belong in the clade of Archosaurs.

The next closest relatives are the lizardfolk. Assuming they are in the same group as lizards, then they are not Archosaurs, but belong in the larger clade of the Diapsids. (Reptiles is a polyphyletic grade and therefore not a valid cladistic classification) or Sauropsids. There isn't any representative of a Sauropsid present that is also not a Diapsid, with the possible exception of Kilkil, if his kind had greater affinity with turtles than with lizards (unlikely).

Speaking of I'm not sure whether Kilkil would fit in Archosauria or elsewhere in Sauropsida.

The next closest relatives would include Roy, Durkon, Belkar, etc, ie all the humans, dwarves, halflings and so forth, who are mammals/synapsids. Synapsids and Diapsids together belong to the larger clade of Amniotes.

I have no idea where Spiky fits into this classification scheme....

*Yes, this means that birds are more closely related to some types of dinosaurs than those dinosaurs are related to certain other types of dinosaurs. It also means that cladistically birds ARE dinosaurs.

You forgot the nematodes, bacteria, insects etc living in the sand :P

Ahem... Spiky is from a different universe/plane of existence/ whatever so we could safely assign him as completely unrelated to the rest of the life on this 'material plane' via conventional means (let's not bring half fiends into the argument...) :smallbiggrin:

Think of it as if we found an ammonia based ecosystem on another planet. We wouldn't place it with 'our' tree of life would we?


And that is why I did not say anything of the sort.

I said that the degree of relationship between Allosaurs and Pteranodons is the same as the degree of relationship between Birds and Pteranodons.

Yes, you are correct.


*Sigh* This is going to be brought up every five posts for the rest of the thread, isn't it?

You are dealing with nerds Rich, to not bring it up would be...unnatural of us :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

Not too surprising, when you consider that the label of "dinosaur" applies to creatures that spanned something like 100 million years of earth's history. I.e. we're chronologically closer to the late Cretaceous dinosaurs than they are to the early dinosaurs.

More than twice! (Almost three times, in fact.)

The earliest dinosaurs (currently known) are 220 million years old.

So the oldest dinosaurs are 155 million years older than the late Cretaceous ones, which are but a piddling 65 million years older than us.

Of course, the Stickverse is only a thousand plus years old or so....

[Niknokitueu]

Nice comic Rich. Gotta love well-applied Evocation. 15 less flying threats, as it were.

It seems V has indeed flipped his secrecy switch. Not only wants to be open to Roy (who is their tactical leader, after all), but wants all members of OotS to know about his past indiscretions.

Seems like Tarquin is going to have to do things by himself. Here's hoping for a resolution to the story arc (and sorry, Elan, but the future looks tropey for your father).

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[The_Weirdo]

it all starts with a single crack, the lack of teamwork and passive aggressiveness about Tarquins actions are the framework of how this book will come to a close

That's... Not how that dynamic is being played. Heck, not even Laurin is THAT angry at Tarquin for the whole "Malack died" thing.

[Lordchoculla]

Naturally.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0167.html

ROFLMAO ... excellent!
:smallsmile:

[Amphiox]

Also interesting to note that Laurin refers to the Empire of Blood as "[Tarquin's] own country." I would have thought that, since they move around, they would view all 3 countries as their own. Perhaps not all of them move? Tarquin always stays in what is presently the Empire of Blood, Laurin stays in Sweat, and maybe the unnamed guy stays in Tears. Malack moves around because he had to oversee everything (since he was planning to inherit all 3), and Miron/Jacinda are just mercenaries with no real attachment to their territories.

I'm guessing that they move during those transition periods when they "overthrow" and rename one of the established empires.

It would look odd if the high ranked advisors of the rulers suddenly changed. Such an event would draw gossip at the least, unwanted attention for their scheme. Much easier to make the changes to during the more chaotic episodes of "regime change".

[HZ514]

it all starts with a single crack, the lack of teamwork and passive aggressiveness about Tarquins actions are the framework of how this book will come to a close

Holy leaps of logic, Batman! Only Roy could make a statement like that with any sort of credibility. You know, because he's a future psychic and all.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm guessing that they move during those transition periods when they "overthrow" and rename one of the established empires.

It would look odd if the high ranked advisors of the rulers suddenly changed. Such an event would draw gossip at the least, unwanted attention for their scheme. Much easier to make the changes to during the more chaotic episodes of "regime change".

Yeah, but I still get the impression that Laurin won't ever take control of a future version of the EoB, otherwise I'd think she'd be more upset about soldiers being wasted on a pointless task.

[Sunken Valley]

Why does V have no wounds. He had a ton before the fiends took him.

[HZ514]

Why does V have no wounds. He had a ton before the fiends took him.

I assumed they somehow fully healed V while they held V's soul or right after they returned V to V's body. Seems in line with their excellent customer service.

[Amphiox]

You forgot the nematodes, bacteria, insects etc living in the sand :P


I decided to leave them out because the Giant didn't draw them. (If I included the bacteria I'd have to regurgitate the whole tree of life, ala Dawkin's "The Ancestor's Tale" except from a raven's point of view instead of a human's....)



Think of it as if we found an ammonia based ecosystem on another planet. We wouldn't place it with 'our' tree of life would we?


The easiest would be to add a new branch right at the base. Sequester earth life not as the whole tree, but as just one branch, and the alien life on another branch. A new branch would be needed for every individual planet's life (assuming independent abiogenesis without panspermia, directed or otherise) We might be able to determine a heirarchy if on how much the abiogenetic processes that produced the life in question shared processes in common. Ammonia based life would likely be far away from water based life, of course.

But if Spiky were ammonia based, he should be in a certain degree of difficulty around now, what with the ambient temperature being something upwards of 50 degree C above the boiling point of his blood....

[mucat]

When did Laurin kill a quarter of a species in an instant? Doing evil acts in retribution does not make them any less evil. If V's actions weren't evil, Laurin's shouldn't be counted as evil either.
But V's actions were evil, abysmally so. That has been made more than clear in the comic.

If V herself isn't evil -- and that is a significant "if" -- then it's because she has repented those actions, resolved to change her ways, and is doing her damnedest (ha!) to mitigate the harm she's caused.

Laurin actively works to maintain an oppressive series of dictatorships. She enables colleagues who torture innocents and burn slaves alive. And she has every intent to keep doing these things.

She may not be as deeply evil as Tarquin, Malack, or Jacinda, but Laurin is far south of neutral. She also seems to be a sensible, level-headed person and a great mom...none of which is incompatible with being evil!

[Forikroder]

That's... Not how that dynamic is being played. Heck, not even Laurin is THAT angry at Tarquin for the whole "Malack died" thing.

ill save it for the i-told-you-so

im fairly certain Tarquin will die by there hands in Elans arms

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, but I still get the impression that Laurin won't ever take control of a future version of the EoB, otherwise I'd think she'd be more upset about soldiers being wasted on a pointless task.

They have reserves. Once the empires switch out again, they'll get more soldiers or slaves from other countries and so on.

[Amphiox]

Yeah, but I still get the impression that Laurin won't ever take control of a future version of the EoB, otherwise I'd think she'd be more upset about soldiers being wasted on a pointless task.

Lots of soldiers are bound to get expended whenever these transitions occur, though. It would look mighty suspicious if the regime changes were always bloodless.

[Trillium]

Hmmm, so Tarq's plan goes right the other way =)))
And Miron's not gonna help him, while Laurin isn't even evil, as I see.
Brilliant!


Also
"A bidet, Miron. It's called a bidet."
Just left me weeping with laughter!

[LadyEowyn]

Nice use of phylogenetic terminology, Rich!

Nice use of chain lightening, V!

I like the interactions between Team Tarquin, and this marks the first - FIRST - time I have correctly predicted something about this strip (that Miron and Laurin think Tarquin's wasting resources and aren't going to help him).

Also, we have confirmation that Miron's a caster, which makes 3 (original; 2, with Malack now dead) on Team Tarquin, plus two fighter/melee-types (Tarquin and Unnamed Guy) and a rogue. Stronger than the Order's lineup of two casters, a rogue, and three melee types (Elan's only started getting casting recently and is still pretty limited).

I like Laurin's daughter being a plumber. Somehow I just appreciate Rich choosing a non-conventional female occupation.

(I don't think Laurin's comment makes her a good person. Walter White does everything "so that my family can have a good life" too. It doesn't make evil actions non-evil.)

[Amphiox]

If V herself isn't evil -- and that is a significant "if" -- then it's because she has repented those actions, resolved to change her ways, and is doing her damnedest (ha!) to mitigate the harm she's caused.

Laurin actively works to maintain an oppressive series of dictatorships. She enables colleagues who torture innocents and burn slaves alive. And she has every intent to keep doing these things.

If V is not evil, it may because V is trying not to be evil.

Even if, as I speculated, that Laurin disapproves of what they're doing, and even if that disapproval is because she recognizes it is evil and doesn't like doing evil, she's still doing it without objection. She's not trying.

All we can really say right now is that she seems less evil than Tarquin, Malack, Xykon or Redcloak. That still puts the range anywhere from good to evil-just-not-quite-complete-monster-evil. Maybe she's TT's lawful evilish counterpoint to the OotS's Chaotic Goodish Haley. Who knows?

And I have to say that standing passively by while your partner sends his helpless mooks to certain death en masse probably past the neutral midpoint and on the evil side of the scale.

[Cynric]

Actually, I'm gonna run with my "Shoulder Pad Guy is more significant than he seems" idea:

Tarquin isn't the official leader of the party. Rather, he pulls their strings like he does with his patsies. Shoulder Pads is the real leader, and this is why he's visibly annoyed when Tarquin is telling them about his empire scheme (he doesn't like being told what to do by a former employee), and why Shoulder Pads isn't involved in Tarquin's latest plot (Tarkie lacks the rank to tell him what to do, esp. if it concerns a personal matter).

Oooh, I like this. It would be an excellent twist. In fact I'll be a little annoyed if this happens now.

[DaggerPen]

If V is not evil, it may because V is trying not to be evil.

Even if, as I speculated, that Laurin disapproves of what they're doing, and even if that disapproval is because she recognizes it is evil and doesn't like doing evil, she's still doing it without objection. She's not trying.

All we can really say right now is that she seems less evil than Tarquin, Malack, Xykon or Redcloak. That still puts the range anywhere from good to evil-just-not-quite-complete-monster-evil. Maybe she's TT's lawful evilish counterpoint to the OotS's Chaotic Goodish Haley. Who knows?

And I have to say that standing passively by while your partner sends his helpless mooks to certain death en masse probably past the neutral midpoint and on the evil side of the scale.

I'd say that Good is out for her. She might be able to swing Neutral, depending on how complicit she is in some of the worse atrocities of this thing they do, but Good's out.

That having been said, I did read her here as anywhere between the south end of Neutral and the north end of Evil.

[Trillium]

Actually, I'm gonna run with my "Shoulder Pad Guy is more significant than he seems" idea:

Tarquin isn't the official leader of the party. Rather, he pulls their strings like he does with his patsies. Shoulder Pads is the real leader, and this is why he's visibly annoyed when Tarquin is telling them about his empire scheme (he doesn't like being told what to do by a former employee), and why Shoulder Pads isn't involved in Tarquin's latest plot (Tarkie lacks the rank to tell him what to do, esp. if it concerns a personal matter).

Nice idea!

Also, as Tarquin himself told us, he was "employed" by Malack to run the kingdoms, not the other way around.

Also, it would explain his striving to become a "legend" - he's fed up with being an underdog and want to prove everyone - and especially the Shoulder Pads - that he's the great one here.

[Porthos]

All we can really say right now is that she seems less evil than Tarquin, Malack, Xykon or Redcloak. That still puts the range anywhere from good to evil-just-not-quite-complete-monster-evil. Maybe she's TT's lawful evilish counterpoint to the OotS's Chaotic Goodish Haley. Who knows?

I would also point out that Laurin's line about "My daughter thinks I'm just a X" is a fairly common line in fiction (and Real Life) when people want to shield atrocious acts from their family.

It doesn't make them any less evil, per se. It just makes them a bit multi-dimensional.

[HZ514]

(I don't think Laurin's comment makes her a good person. Walter White does everything "so that my family can have a good life" too. It doesn't make evil actions non-evil.)

People are labeling Laurin as Neutral, not Good. As I understand the alignment system, Walter White would be closer to Neutral than Evil. He doesn't kill innocent people. Heck if you think about it, his slate of murders spans some of the worst human beings in Breaking Bad's universe. Those actions would be Good by D&D standards. All he really does is supply drugs to drug addicts who would be getting a less pure, more dangerous version of it otherwise so you could go any which way on classifying that. Neutrality is a funny thing.

[Necris Omega]

"...splashy butt washy thing"? ...

If Mirion is a caster as is suggested, I have to doubt he's int dependent.

On an unrelated note... Hm.

... Oh yeah! Wizard!
http://i.imgur.com/IHV0zC4.jpg

[mlund]

Cue the flying dinosaur mounts escape scene. Elan is going to love that.

"Oh yeah, Wizard ..." hilariously summarizes so much of what went wrong with higher-level D&D play across numerous editions.


Basically, they're Seinfeldian Evil, almost.

(SNIP)

They just. Don't. Care. :smallwink:

The problem is that D&D-style settings have "Neutral" as a thing between Good and Evil. Sometimes it involves being a reluctant murderer who has frequent "Pet The Dog" moments to somehow "maintain the balance." Sometimes it involves simply lacking the motive or means to accomplish spectacularly noble or villainous acts.

In a more binary moral system (IE - to willfully reject what is required of Good is the definition of Evil) there isn't any place for Neutral. It's Good, Evil, or not a matter of morality.

Even with go-to Obviously Evil Deeds like tyranny and torture, they are sliding scale definitions in moral discussions. Every act of governing the non-consenting can be considered violent and tyrannical. Every act of coercion can be arbitrarily declared torture (see the vast liberties taken with the term "psychological torture" in the modern era for examples). It really comes down to where you draw the line and declare an act to grossly debase a "person," to the point where it is impermissible. (Of course, fantasy racism and physical metaphysics completely turn "personhood" on its ear too.)

Absolute Monarchy, for example, is utterly tyrannical by its very nature. Legal recognition of rights for anyone is at the pleasure of a single man's whim. In most D&D worlds it's seen as benign, "normal," and "civilized," so long as the monarch chooses to use a velvet glove instead of an iron fist. The fact that citizens' lives can be expunged at the drop of a hat because King Kelvin is ever in a rare mood and doesn't like their attitude is just accepted as a necessary evil for the greater benefit that stability brings.

Tarkin's Evil Overlord shtick is Evil because we've already seen examples showing that the levels of oppression and violence meted out are grossly unnecessary to maintain a functioning government. They are employed for the gratification of those calling the shots, not out of necessity for the citizens or subjects of the Empire.

Of course, if someone were to honestly (and probably cynically) believe that there were simply no viable alternative forms of government, just bloody revolutions between violent tyrannies, then settling on "better the devil you know" would be a very in-character way of thinking for a "Neutral" character on the D&D scale.

- Marty Lund

[karkus]

I always seem to forget that birds are also dinosaurs :smallbiggrin:

[Dracon1us]

I love the smell of casual badassery in the morning!

and I also cry at good character background exposition!


so, this Tarkie guy, is just the Elan of his own group? Awesome!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

Lawful Good: Gomie
Neutral Good: NO ONE
Chaotic Good: Walt, Jr.
Lawful Neutral: Hank, Saul
True Neutral: Skyler, Marie, Ted
Chaotic Neutral: Jesse, Jane, Badger, Skinny Pete, Combo
Lawful Evil: Mike, Gus, the Cousins
Neutral Evil: Walt, Lydia, Todd, Hector Salamanca, Uncle Jack
Chaotic Evil: Tuco

[tigerhawkvok]

Still getting "least evil of the bunch" vibes from Laurin here....

A cladistics joke at the end!* Woot!

*Doubly so since pterosaurs and birds sharing the clade Archosauria is not really that common knowledge....

Hell, they're even both ornithodirans. Yay cladistics!!

[Rising Phoenix]

I decided to leave them out because the Giant didn't draw them. (If I included the bacteria I'd have to regurgitate the whole tree of life, ala Dawkin's "The Ancestor's Tale" except from a raven's point of view instead of a human's....)



The easiest would be to add a new branch right at the base. Sequester earth life not as the whole tree, but as just one branch, and the alien life on another branch. A new branch would be needed for every individual planet's life (assuming independent abiogenesis without panspermia, directed or otherise) We might be able to determine a heirarchy if on how much the abiogenetic processes that produced the life in question shared processes in common. Ammonia based life would likely be far away from water based life, of course.

But if Spiky were ammonia based, he should be in a certain degree of difficulty around now, what with the ambient temperature being something upwards of 50 degree C above the boiling point of his blood....

biological lingo, ignore if not interested

But assuming that life arises spontaneously on every planet (which we don't know) then adding all life to the same tree doesn't make sense to me as it will be completely unrelated.

[hamishspence]

The problem is that D&D-style settings have "Neutral" as a thing between Good and Evil. Sometimes it involves being a reluctant murderer who has frequent "Pet The Dog" moments to somehow "maintain the balance." Sometimes it involves simply lacking the motive or means to accomplish spectacularly noble or villainous acts.

Eberron allows people without the means to accomplish spectacularly villainous acts to be Evil:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a

In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer.

as well as allowing Evil characters to be admirable in most respects besides their Evil actions.

The most common form of corruption is when zealous devotion causes a priest to set aside mercy and compassion. Such a priest may be a pillar of his community and an admirable man who has absolute dedication to the Church. But if he must sacrifice the innocent in pursuit of the greater good, he will. He will torture and kill without remorse. He will not glorify these actions, and will not torture needlessly -- but he will not shirk from using dark methods to win the battle against evil.

And, if a person who only harms the "not innocent" does it a lot, committing exceptionally evil acts against them, a case can be made that they are Evil.

[Dracon1us]

I never - EVER - argued that V's actions weren't Evil. V killed a quarter of a species due to low population. Assuming a population of black dragons of 4000, V killed 1000 black dragons - plus countless other beings, yes. We can safely put V's body count in the 2000s. What Tarquin and co. do creates a *lot* more deaths per - say - year than this. That answers the matter of scale, but there's something else you forget.

Habit.

You see, committing one Evil act, even if it's a SERIOUSLY Evil act, doesn't make someone Evil. Committing Evil acts on a daily basis, supporting a regime that kills people, sends soldiers to their deaths and tortures dissidents? Yeah, that does.

Spot On, you nailed everything.

V is a good flawed person, and there are countless example about this.
not last, putting his life at stake to save the world when he could just be a rich powerwul miron-type

[hamishspence]

You see, committing one Evil act, even if it's a SERIOUSLY Evil act, doesn't make someone Evil.

While the DMG says that committing one strongly aligned act shouldn't usually change a character's alignment- it also says that there can be exceptions.

And in 2nd ed, there were recommendations that one should immediately change a character's alignment to evil if that one act is serious enough.

[wingnutx]

If V is not evil, it may because V is trying not to be evil.

Even if, as I speculated, that Laurin disapproves of what they're doing, and even if that disapproval is because she recognizes it is evil and doesn't like doing evil, she's still doing it without objection. She's not trying.



We learned from the diva at the gates of paradise that trying is of huge importance.

Roy had failed to be truly lawful good on a number of occasions, but he's truly trying, so he gets the LG stamp of approval.

[Lordchoculla]

If V is not evil, it may because V is trying not to be evil.

Even if, as I speculated, that Laurin disapproves of what they're doing, and even if that disapproval is because she recognizes it is evil and doesn't like doing evil, she's still doing it without objection. She's not trying.

All we can really say right now is that she seems less evil than Tarquin, Malack, Xykon or Redcloak. That still puts the range anywhere from good to evil-just-not-quite-complete-monster-evil. Maybe she's TT's lawful evilish counterpoint to the OotS's Chaotic Goodish Haley. Who knows?

And I have to say that standing passively by while your partner sends his helpless mooks to certain death en masse probably past the neutral midpoint and on the evil side of the scale.


I can see the discussions about V being evil continues despite Mr.Giant's earlier postings trying to stop this.

Oh, well. To me V is NOT evil. He/she/it/hir/etc. has committed an atrocity. Yes. Well, so has the USA e.g. in Vietnam. Does Americans consider the USA evil? That is really totally irrelevant right now. V in essence is neutral. But everybody, no matter how "good" they are according to the D&D alignment system. Miko was a good example.

However, if you look at e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html and the strips with Roy being judged in the afterlife as well as the business-like approach to everything (except Tarquin's game with his sons) that Team Tarquin you see how nuanced the views on alignments are in the OotS-verse and why it is actually quite a bit more complicated here than in many D&D worlds.

Therefore I like your:
If V is not evil, it may because V is trying not to be evil. - it fits with Roy trying to do the Lawful Good thing all the time judgement in the afterlife.

[Diadem]

That was pretty awesome. Thanks Giant!

Looks like Laurin might be the obligatory neutral member of this evil adventuring party.

You'd still think Tarquin could convince them to step in, if he asks nicely. Asking nicely is probably not in his character though.

[dps]

Also loving Elan's "Oh yeah, wizard"



That was Haley, not Elan.

[Messenger]

I'm not surprised the other members of Tarquin's party are like that and look at Tarquin that way. Tarquin is their equivalent of Elan, just Lawful Evil and smarter. Rich even gave us a good hint of this before: "It IS Fairly Spicy, However" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html):

Malack: Is yours always like this?
:vaarsuvius: Yes. Yours?
Malack: Sadly. :smallbiggrin:

---


We now know that Tarquin's team works with him solely because his scheme works. They're not loyal followers, swayed by his personal charisma, but mercenary adventurers pursuing the bottom line. Nice to know.To some extent. I sense that only with Miron who's implied to be motivated mainly by coin. Tarquin and Malack were genuinely friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) and he ultimately didn't let kinship get in the way of fatally punishing Nale for killing Malack (among other things) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html). As for Laurin, I think she has a cooler relationship with Tarquin than Malack did, but they may still be actual comrades.

Remember: Just because you disagree with someone- even strongly disagree with them- doesn't have to stop you from being friends. I'm going to stay away from real life examples because I don't want to open Pandora's Box, but here look at panel 6. They're making pleasant chit-chat despite their differences. Laurin is even smiling (of course, that's because of what Laurin's kid did, of which she's proud). Maybe it's just being civil to each other out of respect, but it can also be genuine friendship.

---

And only now did I notice the bags under Miron's eyes. It sometimes seemed like only Tarquin was old (and let's not get caught in the details with Malack). But Laurin's hair is turning gray. Makes me wonder about Jacinda and the other fighter (is he a fighter?) in the group.

[Leolo]

There is also the point that Miron still consider the huge 3 Kingdoms Plan as Tarquins work - and Tarquin points out that it is his plan that brings the money in Miron's purse.

So i would not say he has the Elan role. He is the one that makes the plans in his group. He just isn't the dictator of his group.

[DaggerPen]

And only now did I notice the bags under Miron's eyes. It sometimes seemed like only Tarquin was old (and let's not get caught in the details with Malack). But Laurin's hair is turning gray. Makes me wonder about Jacinda and the other fighter (is he a fighter?) in the group.

Shoulderpad guy has signs of aging, too. Check here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), where his hair grays significantly.

[Tass]

Funny how Miron says that Tarquin should "just send Jacinda" as if that is okay, using a team mate to further Tarquins own goals. What if she doesn't want to?

Tarquin could also "just send Miron and Laurin" to end the fight in the crater.

[tigerhawkvok]

For those who care, the cladistics of the last few comics are as follows:

Blackwing and the Velociraptors are the most closely related. Their clade, together, are the Coelurosaurs.

The Allosaurs are in a different branch and are more distantly related. The larger clade formed by the Allosaurs plus the Coelurosaurs are the Theropods.

The next closest related is Tarquin's Triceratops. It's an Ornithosuchian, and thus not a Theropod, and the larger clade it belongs in along with the Theropods is the Dinosaurs.*

The next closest relatives are the pteranodons. They (pterosaurs), along with the Dinosaurs, belong in the clade of Archosaurs.

The next closest relatives are the lizardfolk. Assuming they are in the same group as lizards, then they are not Archosaurs, but belong in the larger clade of the Diapsids. (Reptiles is a polyphyletic grade and therefore not a valid cladistic classification) or Sauropsids. There isn't any representative of a Sauropsid present that is also not a Diapsid, with the possible exception of Kilkil, if his kind had greater affinity with turtles than with lizards (unlikely).

Speaking of I'm not sure whether Kilkil would fit in Archosauria or elsewhere in Sauropsida.

The next closest relatives would include Roy, Durkon, Belkar, etc, ie all the humans, dwarves, halflings and so forth, who are mammals/synapsids. Synapsids and Diapsids together belong to the larger clade of Amniotes.

I have no idea where Spiky fits into this classification scheme....

*Yes, this means that birds are more closely related to some types of dinosaurs than those dinosaurs are related to certain other types of dinosaurs. It also means that cladistically birds ARE dinosaurs.

Close! But not quite.

Birds are dinosaurs of the clade Avialae, which is united with Dromaeosauridae via the clade of Eumaniraptora (which is a subclade of Coelurosauria).

( http://phylogeny.revealedsingularity.net/search.php?permalink=Avialae )

Allosaurs are part of Allosauridae, which are members of Carnosauria. Carnosauria + Coelurosauria = Theropoda ( http://phylogeny.revealedsingularity.net/search.php?permalink=Allosauridae )

Triceratops isn't an ornithosuchian, but an Ornithischian dinosaur (specifically, a marginocephalian). Ornithischia + Saurischia = Dinosauria.

Pterosauria is the major outgroup to Dinosauria, and Dinosauria + Pterosauira = Ornithodira ("bird-neck", also sometimes called Avemetatarsalia). It is the unification of Crocodylomorpha + Ornithodira = Archosauria .

Archosauromorpha + Lepidosauromorpha (which contains all lizards within Squamata -> Lepidosauria) gives the clade Sauria. Adding ichthyosaurs or araeoscelidia would give diapsida, or adding turtles would give the larger sauropsida.

The linked phylogenies has a bunch of citations down at the bottom :-)

[skaddix]

Funny how Miron says that Tarquin should "just send Jacinda" as if that is okay, using a team mate to further Tarquins own goals. What if she doesn't want to?

Tarquin could also "just send Miron and Laurin" to end the fight in the crater.


Jacinda might just be the most kill happy of the bunch. I mean she does appear to be an Assassin and certainly a better one then Crystal.

[davidbofinger]

The next closest relatives are the lizardfolk. Assuming they are in the same group as lizards

The only source information I know says "primitive reptiles". I may be interpreting the word "primitive" in a way they didn't intend. :smallsmile:



Reptiles is a polyphyletic grade and therefore not a valid cladistic classification

All right, primitive sauropsids then.


Kilkil

According to the Wikipedia entry, 3rd edition kobolds are distantly related to dragons.

Dragons have six limbs, which is downright weird, but they share so many other characteristics with sauropsids that it must be apomorphic (i.e. something their last common ancestor with anything else we know didn't have).


I have no idea where Spiky fits into this classification scheme....

Spiky appears to be a plantigrade biped, i.e. he walks on his heels as well as his toes. All plantigrade bipeds on Earth today are mammals. The spiky skin could be something like a pangolin's, it looks more like that than a hedgehog's or an echidna's anyway, though it could also be like a lizard's. I think on balance that Spiky's probably a mammal.

It's hard, this business, when you can't look at their skulls and teeth.

[faustin]

Are the Pterodactyls immune to the lighting?

[Domino Quartz]

Are the Pterodactyls immune to the lighting?

I don't know D&D rules, but I think they weren't affected because V wasn't targeting them.

[EclipseDarkSun]

I spent a fair amount of time researching the wording of this punchline, specifically because I knew someone would find a way to criticize it.

Good guess :smallbiggrin:

[Liliet]

I love how Tarquin is definitely not going to join the fight himself. He's Epic, but he's still a non-caster.

Also, I love how V executed the plan suggested by lots of people in the previous thread so casually that it was off-panel. Because obvious.

Also, finally we see the OotS genuinely winning a major plot-moving encounter. We haven't seen it since, I think, the first fight with Xykon. The last minor team win was against the slave-traders (I don't count the LG because 1) they were separated and 2) Malack helped).

Also, go go Normal villains! Nice to see that Tarkie is just as much of a freak in his own team as Elan is in his, and that killing their children is not a norm for Evil in this setting.



Funny how Miron says that Tarquin should "just send Jacinda" as if that is okay, using a team mate to further Tarquins own goals. What if she doesn't want to?

Tarquin could also "just send Miron and Laurin" to end the fight in the crater.
If Jacinda is a Rogue/Assassin, it's probably her job to kill their enemies quietly, like Laurin's job is moving armies. Besides, she might be a most-Evil nutjob like Belkar who would eagerly jump at the possibility of killing a high-level target.

[Orange Knight]

Great comic :)

I really like how TT are getting fleshed out here. They get on with and respect Tarquin (to a point, and I love Miron calling him Tarkie) but he can't just order them about, and they don't really like his genre savvyness.

"Oh yeah. Wizard" sums it up nicely.

V kills six riders. I think the Order will be making their escape through them, via either V, Blackwing or possibly Belkar. He hasn't done much lately, and as a ranger he might be able to charm them.

[Leolo]

I love how Tarquin is definitely not going to join the fight himself. He's Epic, but he's still a non-caster.


Still possible that he is a bard. He is genre savy, has high charisma, thinks that bards are "underpowered" for not ruling the universe and Malack told him to stop playing with the order when he was fighting them. So it seems that there is more he could do.

Or that he has some other spellcasting class. (Maybe a multiclassing combination like those of nale - just effective?)

[ella ventic]

I'm actually pretty intrigued by what Tarquin is saying in the first panel. Yes, all you're doing is making Roy look more badass... which is exactly how this should work if (since) Roy and not Elan is the primary protagonist.

Do you think Tarquin is capable of listening to himself enough to figure that out? It seems like it would be the absolute perfect and poetic way to begin, at least, his defeat; let his own genre savviness clue him in to the fact that he is NOT the Big Bad but just an auxiliary villain in a much larger story. Crushing.

Or: is he just too utterly blind to any story other than the one he's telling himself? Even the fact he's said it out loud won't make a dent; he could never imagine such a thing, much less believe it? Or maybe he'll have the same realization later but only because Elan will force him to (probably the most satisfying, narrative-wise)?

HMMMM.

[DaggerPen]

Still possible that he is a bard. He is genre savy, has high charisma, thinks that bards are "underpowered" for not ruling the universe and Malack told him to stop playing with the order when he was fighting them. So it seems that there is more he could do.

Or that he has some other spellcasting class. (Maybe a multiclassing combination like those of nale - just effective?)

:haley:: Bards can't BE Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html).

[EclipseDarkSun]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html
"Malack was an old adventuring pal of mine. He found me and offered me a job as Chief Warlord to his new master."

So yeah, he could be just chief "henchman" to this 'new master'. Rather than the leader of his compatriots :smallsmile:

[EclipseDarkSun]

:haley:: Bards can't BE Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html).

He could be an ex-bard after an alignment change..?

[Leolo]

:haley:: Bards can't BE Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0205.html).

There are options to allow this - and of course he could have become lawfull later, after he grabbed all this "the story has to be in order!" stuff. And used a prestige class to level up higher.

Although i admit that bard is just an option of many. My main point was more that obviously Tarquin has not shown all of his abilities until now, at least not according to Malack. It is entirely possible that he pulls out a scroll of XYZ and uses UMD, for example.

Or has a class or prestigeclass that grants him other abilities, maybe spells. It would be just odd that after all what we have seen from him he would be just a singleclass fighter. In the OOTS world most of the time the class selection does says something about the character. Even if you think about needlessly complicated characters like nale. :smallwink:

[derfenrirwolv]

Biology reference ftw.

[Niveus Candidus]

The theme of villainous relationships with their children continues. Also, the Order is in luck--the baddies still aren't taking them seriously as a potential threat to their current or future existence.

[RMS Oceanic]

I have a feeling that Miron and Laurin will play no further part in this fight, for the reasons they have stated. I do think however Tarquin may decide to intervene personally to add the personal "you killed my mentor!" touch he's looking for, and that may be his mistake.

[SlashDash]

I liked the original "oh right" better
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html

But yeah, still awsome the way it goes. I highly doubt they'll just make a random flight escape. After all, the soldiers can just shoot down their mounts.
And Roy and falling damage isn't a good combo :smallwink:

In fact I'll find it really weird if this fight will be over before another exchange between Elan and his dad. The way his party members remind him that he is becoming obsessed is something that will either undo him (get him killed) or cause him to have a reflection and pause things over (even if it might take a couple of more strips and someone else to point that out to him).

Also, it would seem odd how the order would manage to get to the next gate without Tarquin's help. As it has been made crystal clear over and over again, V can't teleport (without selling his\her soul).

And the order still needs a serious beefing up montage to have a chance against Xykon. We're down to the last gate and I doubt Rich would do the same skull into gate joke again.

[DeliaP]

Rampant insane speculation time:


Laurin's adopted daughter=Redcloak's missing niece!!!


OK, nah, not really. Actually I like the reference to Helen being a plumber (like Inkyrius being a baker) as the Giant pointing out that, actually, most people won't be adventurers or have PC class levels.

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)

[Everyl]

OK, nah, not really. Actually I like the reference to Helen being a plumber (like Inkyrius being a baker) as the Giant pointing out that, actually, most people won't be adventurers or have PC class levels.

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)

Leap several times their own height, vertically, use common floral blossoms to hurl fireballs, and pretty much anything else it takes to rescue the princess from King Koopa this week.

That was an easy one!

[DaggerPen]

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)

http://25.media.tumblr.com/9addb3e50a4c11ea156365b4822741fc/tumblr_mtq7k1QMMP1ql5qwmo1_500.jpg

Edit: Crap. Took too long to find the picture.

[snikrept]

It's becoming clearer why they chose Malack to partner with Tarquin. The others probably got a bit fed up with his "story nonsense" over the course of an adventuring career.

Tarquin is upset his teammates aren't wading in spells blazing. BUt he's not doing it either, even though he proved he can take the OOTS solo before. Maybe he thinks fighting the battle himself will screw up the story he has planned?

[Liliet]

Still possible that he is a bard. He is genre savy, has high charisma, thinks that bards are "underpowered" for not ruling the universe and Malack told him to stop playing with the order when he was fighting them. So it seems that there is more he could do.

Or that he has some other spellcasting class. (Maybe a multiclassing combination like those of nale - just effective?)
I thought he was Roy's counterpart, high-Int high-Cha fighter?

He is able to play Thog's "big brute melee" role. I'm not sure bard would do that.

For all I understand about DnD power balance, melee-focused bard is a horrible build, something Tarkie would never do if he's halfway as intelligent and Genre-Savvy as he looks.



I'm actually pretty intrigued by what Tarquin is saying in the first panel. Yes, all you're doing is making Roy look more badass... which is exactly how this should work if (since) Roy and not Elan is the primary protagonist.

Do you think Tarquin is capable of listening to himself enough to figure that out? It seems like it would be the absolute perfect and poetic way to begin, at least, his defeat; let his own genre savviness clue him in to the fact that he is NOT the Big Bad but just an auxiliary villain in a much larger story. Crushing.

Or: is he just too utterly blind to any story other than the one he's telling himself? Even the fact he's said it out loud won't make a dent; he could never imagine such a thing, much less believe it? Or maybe he'll have the same realization later but only because Elan will force him to (probably the most satisfying, narrative-wise)?

HMMMM.
He hasn't figured it out yet, so I think... no. He won't do so on his own. Although I do want him to. Most probably it will be Elan... nah, I dunno. But it's a very interesting question.



Rampant insane speculation time:


Laurin's adopted daughter=Redcloak's missing niece!!!


OK, nah, not really. Actually I like the reference to Helen being a plumber (like Inkyrius being a baker) as the Giant pointing out that, actually, most people won't be adventurers or have PC class levels.

(Mind you, NPC expert class offers many unexplored possibilities if you can get to Epic level! :-) What exactly would an Epic Plumber be able to do??)
THAT WOULD BE EPIC. Although the Evil team being less racist than the Good team is kinda weird... which was the fuel for the "Good Evil Overlord" genre I like... Seriously, it would be epic.

And an Epic Plumber is, obviously, an inventor and a head of a corporation.

[Leolo]

Funny thing: If Tarquins suggestion ("why don't you cast your spells on them?") would have worked he would have stepped back and let the other members of his group did the real work. Just like Elan.

Maybe he could have supported them in this case? ^^

[Leolo]

I thought he was Roy's counterpart, high-Int high-Cha fighter?

He is able to play Thog's "big brute melee" role. I'm not sure bard would do that.

For all I understand about DnD power balance, melee-focused bard is a horrible build, something Tarkie would never do if he's halfway as intelligent and Genre-Savvy as he looks.


Looks like it is really difficult to say what class tarquin is. He is genre savvy, so something that is attached to this would match (Bard does this for elan, but tarquin would have to be a lawfull bard or ex-bard), but also a good melee fighter (ok - possible with the right prestige classes or high level plus items) and has learned to defend against many strange attack forms (blocked elans puns)

But as said above - i just wanted to say that we don't really know what it is that he has not used until now. Malack said Tarquin was playing with the order and we have seen him having always one more good card in his sleeve. UMD plus a Scroll looks like something that would match his character very well. But also some kind of prestige class or the like.

[Krim]

I read that as being both physically and otherwise away from all this - she did say she wanted a 'good life' for her daughter. I figured the job for the Weeping Key was a one-off, because it would help her daughter's career. But living anywhere near any of the ruled kingdoms isn't what most people would consider 'a good life' and Laurin seems smart enough to know that, which is why I read her as I did.

I am going to disagree with you on that. The Empire of Tears can be a *very* good place to live if you happen to side with the right people and you mother is personal adviser to the Queen. I am sure Hannah has a fairly comfortable life, if not outright luxury.

That said, it is quite dangerous, and hence, Laurin's desire to keep her away is perfectly justified.

Laurin could be either Pragmatic Evil - I get what I want for me and my friends and screw anyone else-, or Neutral - I make the most of the situation, do not seek to hurt others, but if someone gets hurt, tough luck-

[Nachoman_Randy]

Looks like it is really difficult to say what class tarquin is. He is genre savvy, so something that is attached to this would match (Bard does this for elan, but tarquin would have to be a lawfull bard or ex-bard), but also a good melee fighter (ok - possible with the right prestige classes or high level plus items) and has learned to defend against many strange attack forms (blocked elans puns)

But as said above - i just wanted to say that we don't really know what it is that he has not used until now. Malack said Tarquin was playing with the order and we have seen him having always one more good card in his sleeve. UMD plus a Scroll looks like something that would match his character very well. But also some kind of prestige class or the like.

He is like Roy. Single class fighter 17-20. Thats is lots of feats. Also, just like Roy he have his mental attributes balanced. His genre savy could be knowledge (literature)

EDIT: Funny enough he is Roy True Evil Opposite, or at least what Roy could be if he was evil. I think Tarquin is going to figure it out soon and maybe take it well.

[Messenger]

With Miron talking and being confirmed as a caster, I wonder what kind. Based on his dialogue here and in 915 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html), he doesn't seem to be a wizard as far as they're depicted in the OotS-verse as being very intellectual (from V to Eugene to Archmage Fyron to Professor Xavion). Of course, he could just be playing against type. He could be some sort of Divine spellcaster, but would be a little redundant next to Malack. A sorcerer perhaps? Any other possibilities?

[Leolo]

He is like Roy. Single class fighter 17-20. Thats is lots of feats. Also, just like Roy he have his mental attributes balanced. His genre savy could be knowledge (literature)

EDIT: Funny enough he is Roy True Evil Opposite, or at least what Roy could be if he was evil. I think Tarquin is going to figure it out soon and maybe take it well.

Roy already had an evil opposite - as seen in his last fight with Thog where he pretended not to have anything in common with Thog. And still had so much in common with him.

But the point is more: Most classes in OOTS does affect the character of the protagonists. For example nale is not only needlessly complicated - his class selection was needlessly complicated, too. Same is true for haley - being a rogue does affected her character and she needed time to overcome this. Something her father has not done until now. And while Roy does have decent intelligence and wisdom he lacked the charisma (and genre savvyness) to be able to hire a group.

Tarquin's genre savvyness is so important for the character that it would be odd if it is not a very fundamental part of his build. And he did looked good to haley, much like Elan (indicating high charisma? He certainly has it).

And he used diplomacy and bluff a lot, both fighter cross class skill. And both his sons where casters.

[Kish]

It implies that Laurin's motivations for engaging in the activity she engages in for Tarquin is not because she enjoys what she's doing. She's doing it for someone else in order to help that other person. Whether that involves her outright disapproval or merely a desire to keep her own child safe, it shows us that Laurin isn't in it for love of the game.
I have to wonder how much power she thinks she needs to do whatever she wants to do for Hannah. She is--unless Tarquin is completely deluded--one of the six most powerful people on the continent now. If she really thinks life in a shifting-allegiances "We have always been at war with the Empire of Blood" dictatorship would be better than somewhere she could set up her daughter right now physically far away from Tarquin's schemes...

[Nachoman_Randy]

Roy already had an evil opposite - as seen in his last fight with Thog where he pretended not to have anything in common with Thog. And still had so much in common with him.

But the point is more: Most classes in OOTS does affect the character of the protagonists. For example nale is not only needlessly complicated - his class selection was needlessly complicated, too. Same is true for haley - being a rogue does affected her character and she needed time to overcome this. Something her father has not done until now. And while Roy does have decent intelligence and wisdom he lacked the charisma (and genre savvyness) to be able to hire a group.

Tarquin's genre savvyness is so important for the character that it would be odd if it is not a very fundamental part of his build. And he did looked good to haley, much like Elan (indicating high charisma? He certainly has it).

And he used diplomacy and bluff a lot, both fighter cross class skill.

High intelligence and charisma can make his bluff and diplomacy checks easier. Able learner (cross class skill cost only 1 point) and persuasive (+2intimidate, bluff) could be a good choice as well (he got feats to spare). Don't forget age category adds to your mental stats too, so thats another bonus.


To me Tarquin build (feats, stats, skills) seems like an unothodox fighter build wich is effective, unlike Nales. I belive he is single classed, just using some feats and skill points not only for combat but for rp as well (just like a PC choosing one of the skill based feats like persuasive) Could explain why he do so well in his life (in oots not everyone reachs the level of power Team Tarquin did).

The fun part is that I think he wanted to be a hero at first, maybe when he was married to Elans mom, but choosed to be a villian instead at some point of his life.

[Nachoman_Randy]

I have to wonder how much power she thinks she needs to do whatever she wants to do for Hannah. She is--unless Tarquin is completely deluded--one of the six most powerful people on the continent now. If she really thinks life in a shifting-allegiances "We have always been at war with the Empire of Blood" dictatorship would be better than somewhere she could set up her daughter right now physically far away from Tarquin's schemes...

I think Laurin just want her daughter not to be either and adventurer or a evil politician.

I think thats what she meant.

[Kish]

And only now did I notice the bags under Miron's eyes. It sometimes seemed like only Tarquin was old (and let's not get caught in the details with Malack). But Laurin's hair is turning gray. Makes me wonder about Jacinda and the other fighter (is he a fighter?) in the group.
Malack said that they're all past the prime of their "short lives."

He could be an ex-bard after an alignment change..?
Does Tarquin really strike you as someone who ever considered any viewpoint that wasn't totally Lawful Evil? Because I sure don't think so.

I think Laurin just want her daughter not to be either and adventurer or a evil politician.

I think thats what she meant.
And so what exactly does Laurin expect to be able to do for her in the future that she can't do for her right now?

[Hopeless]

Just a thought but could they use those pterodactyls to fly through the rift and across the ocean you could see on the other side?

Also is the reason Belkar is supposed to die is because he'll be staying in the Rift World as part of the final battle?

There's been no indications divinations work in there has there?

[Jane_Doe]

Hm. So, no secret plan or anything, Tarquin really is just a staggeringly incompetent commander whose access to a long-lost treasure hoard enabled him to drown his enemies in mercenaries. This really casts Malack's statement regarding Tarquin's affinity for strategies of attrition in a new light for me.

On a separate note, it seems to me that Nale's inability to know when to keep his mouth shut might have prevented Tarquin's team from breaking apart; it really feels like Tarquin is "first amongst equals" (if that; we may well be overestimating his importance simply because he and Malack are the only ones we've seen for any meaningful length of time, and he has such a big personality), so to speak, as opposed to being their leader in any proper sense. Based on the little we've seen of their dynamics, it really doesn't feel like he could convince them to let Nale join after killing their friend - possibly not even after failing to claim the gate, even. Perhaps he's a lot more persuasive when the stakes are higher and he's not watching a battle... But I'm reasonably certain that every time we've seen Tarquin trying to persuade someone to do something, it's been by offering them something of value to them in return for doing what he wants. He's actually a bit of a jerk when he's not being funny and charming, so I get the impression that he's really not all that good at getting people to do things they're not already inclined to do. He can't just bribe his teammates into letting Nale join them, and they knew Nale joining would be a terrible idea. Tarquin wouldn't let them kill him if he wouldn't kill Nale himself, so... It really all might have blown up, in my opinion. Amusing, in a way; like every other thing Nale wanted, if he'd been just a little less of a dysfunctional person, he could have properly undone his father as he wanted.

Unintentional conclusion from all of this; Tarquin is a spoiled rich kid, all grown up :smalltongue: . Throw a bit of daddy's money at it, and everything goes your way :smalltongue: .

[Sith_Happens]

It is interesting to note that Laurin's daughter did plumbing work for the Weeping King. That suggests the possibility that she is in fact living somewhere in or near the Empire of Tears.

Or the possibility that she thinks her mother is a well-connected, high level Psion interior designer. Psionic Fabricate is a thing, after all.:smalltongue:

[Mauve Shirt]

OH yeah. I can't wait til my wizard's high level enough to make the party go "Oh right. Wizard."

[Leolo]

The "Tarquin is not the leader" theorie does lacks an explaination why all are doing his plan. Sure, Miron might want money from this and the psion stability. But there are other ways for this. Plus - the good party in 816 called their opponents "Tarquin and his party".

So his role in the party does seem exceptional - just not that exceptional to order them arround.

[Leolo]

High intelligence and charisma can make his bluff and diplomacy checks easier. Able learner (cross class skill cost only 1 point) and persuasive (+2intimidate, bluff) could be a good choice as well (he got feats to spare). Don't forget age category adds to your mental stats too, so thats another bonus.

Yes...could be possible. But how did he come to learn how to defend against elans puns? This does sound like some kind of prestige class (maybe dashing swordsman?)

And he does raised nale to make his "Dun, Dun, Dun" for him. ^^

And fights as well with a dagger as with an axe. (so his damage seems to come from a different source?)

Hard to say. Maybe we will learn more soon, if Tarquin does really try to fight the order again and kill roy.

[Niveus Candidus]

With Miron talking and being confirmed as a caster, I wonder what kind. Based on his dialogue here and in 915 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html), he doesn't seem to be a wizard as far as they're depicted in the OotS-verse as being very intellectual (from V to Eugene to Archmage Fyron to Professor Xavion). Of course, he could just be playing against type. He could be some sort of Divine spellcaster, but would be a little redundant next to Malack. A sorcerer perhaps? Any other possibilities?
She casts from her head, not her hands--Psionics.

[Kish]

She casts from her head, not her hands--Psionics.
Either you have seen at least one scene none of the rest of us have that reveals a lot of surprising things about Miron Shewdanker...

...or you need to reread the post you just replied to.

[Red_Boulder]

"I think I'm just making Greenhilt look more badass."

"You want Greenhilt Dude dead,..."

"...that splashy butt-washing thing..."

What amazing dialogue from villains! Truly it shows their intellect when villains use words like "dude," and "butt-washing." I totally believe these morons ran a shadow government for multiple decades without getting caught.

Also Bald McStupidBlueScarf earns major points in my book for telling Tarquin to shut the **** up about his stupid meta crap.

[Yendor]

I'd file Laurin's motivations under "yeah, right, whatever helps you sleep at night", or if I was feeling particularly uncharitable, alongside Tarquin's concept of "gifts" that includes burning slaves and forcing best friends to fight to the death.


I have to wonder how much power she thinks she needs to do whatever she wants to do for Hannah. She is--unless Tarquin is completely deluded--one of the six most powerful people on the continent now. If she really thinks life in a shifting-allegiances "We have always been at war with the Empire of Blood" dictatorship would be better than somewhere she could set up her daughter right now physically far away from Tarquin's schemes...

Well, five now.

[gerryq]

EDIT: WAIT! That Chain Lightning targeted the soldiers alone, not the dinosaurs they were riding on. We may see the Order riding out off into the sunset yet...

I wondered about that. But is it because the soldiers are spiky and metallic and stick up like lightning rods, or just because magic?

Blackwing doesn't seem to have noticed...

[Paseo H]

I must say, Jacinda is a really awesome sounding name.

Too bad the catgirl in question is probably a monster.

[Yendor]

I wondered about that. But is it because the soldiers are spiky and metallic and stick up like lightning rods, or just because magic?

Magic. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm) V can pick which targets she likes.

[gerryq]

Considering that Miron was the one who sent Haley the ransom note, it does seem like simple Greed is his primary motivation.

Indeed, we have three signs - that, and "I'm not seeing the profit" and Tarkie's "when it puts coin in your purse".

Doesn't look like they are intending any sort of dramatic break with Tarquin, though. Possibly the Order will just get away on the pteros, and leave the resolution for another day. But there is still the question of Haley's father, so perhaps they are not heading straight for the Fifth Gate just yet.

Another conceivable resolution: oops, while everyone is away Kilkil just took over the empire of Blood, and Tarquin is out of business. If Team Tarquin is ticked off enough with him, they might work with Kilkil. Which would be a come-uppance for Tarquin, right?

[Paseo H]

I wondered about that. But is it because the soldiers are spiky and metallic and stick up like lightning rods, or just because magic?

Blackwing doesn't seem to have noticed...

I would venture the latter.

Or rather, these mooks probably aren't nearly a match for the party one to one. You'll notice that Roy is one shotting them handily, V is likely high level enough to AoE them to death effectively, as well.

[Voidfaith]

Well, further proof that there are only good mothers in the world but no good dads.

The bidet bit was funny.

[Orm-Embar]

Thanks Giant!

Some good lines there, from "I think I'm just making Greenhilt look badass" to "Oh yeah. Wizard."

And Laurin's statement about wanting to keep her daughter away from all this was poignant. Kind of like a pro boxer saying he fights so his kid won't have to. I like how this episode gives some clues into the internal workings of Team Tarquin and Pals, not to mention their individual motivations.

Tarquin's speech sure looks ominous for the OOTS. That "unfinished narrative business" won't resolve itself. Tarquin seems likely to keep on trying to force things to go his way. Whatever that involves, I doubt it will be as simple as turning and marching away to leave them alone in the desert - that would be anticlimactic as all get out and Tarquin would never quit on a story like that.

[Coranho]

That's it? Really? "Kill Roy to motivate my son into coming back to avenge the death of his friend so all the unfinished narrative isn't wasted."?

...They were going to come back and crush his evil regime after stopping Xykon regardless. They told him that!

They told each other too, it's hardly a surprise, it makes this entire charade seem like a waste, I'm totally on Laurin's side in this.

Tarquin is just a petty old man.

[AutomatedTeller]

That was good. It's always good when you have to look up a word - entertainment and learning, all in one!!

yes, wizards are tough against mooks - but it's not like roy is having lots of trouble or anything.

[Morty]

That's it? Really? "Kill Roy to motivate my son into coming back to avenge the death of his friend so all the unfinished narrative isn't wasted."?

...They were going to come back and crush his evil regime after stopping Xykon regardless. They told him that!

They told each other too, it's hardly a surprise, it makes this entire charade seem like a waste, I'm totally on Laurin's side in this.

Tarquin is just a petty old man.

The point of it all is to make sure Elan is the main character instead of following Roy. Which still means Tarquin is a petty old man, of course.