He may be a supporting character, but Elan has a LOT of plot devoted to him...

[krossbow]

You know, its kind of funny when you think about it: Elan's father's entire plan here revolves around Elan being a supporting character and fading into the background and not being a hero.

Its easy to think of Elan as a supporting character due to being relatively ineffective compared to the rest of the team... but when you think about it, he has ALOT of the story dedicated to or revolving around him.




The first villains they ever encountered? Nale was all about elan, not anyone else. The cliffport arc Was a giant Story dedicated to Elan and his growth as a character, and Then there was the situation with Kabota and Therla, and now THIS.
Elan may be Overshadowed in Combat Importance and Power levels by those he's with and around, but a disproportionately large amount of the story is dedicated to him; Its almost Ironic to see Tarkin Upset about Elan not being important enough when he is in fact One of the MOST focused characters in the entire Strip!

[Ramien]

He's had a lot of plot, but a lot of it has involved the other characters as well. Nale, himself, was about Elan, but the 'evil opposites' helped to define the rest of the party, and let Roy get some of his initial frustration at Elan out of his system. The Cliffport Arc was a product of both Elan's and Haley's arc, with a little bit of added background for Roy in the initial setup. Kubota and Therkla was Elan's story, but it also was the beginning of the Darth V sequence, as well as being interspersed with Haley and Belkar's own storyline as well as Roy's time in the clouds above. All of the 'supporting' party members have been getting their times in the spotlight - some more than others, but the difference isn't as big as you've made it out to be.

[Draz74]

I think Roy still has more story dedicated to him than Elan does (and I think the Number of Character Appearances thread will support this). Roy's are just less noticeable, ironically, since a lot of them deal with the main overarching plot (i.e. the oath to take down Xykon).

But I concur that Elan has edged his way up to being the #2 protagonist of the story, overtaking Haley (who definitely used to be ahead of him). But in a story with a cast as large as this story, does the term "supporting character" really apply to the #2 protagonist?

[Gift Jeraff]

I always saw Elan as equal to or greater than Roy in terms of "main character-ness," with Haley right behind them.

[HZ514]

"Supporting character" may not mean what you think it means.

OotS is not any single character's story, it features an ensemble cast. Says it right on the label: Order of the Stick, as in the whole party. Put another way, it's Lost, not Breaking Bad.

[3WhiteFox3]

Tarquin's biggest problem is that he can't see that OOTS isn't a traditional story, where one person is the hero and everyone else is along for the ride. It's an ensemble cast, more like an RPG campaign, no one character completely overshadows the rest, they all play an important part and contribute their own stories.

[Sunken Valley]

Tarquin's biggest problem is that he can't see that OOTS isn't a traditional story, where one person is the hero and everyone else is along for the ride. It's an ensemble cast, more like an RPG campaign, no one character completely overshadows the rest, they all play an important part and contribute their own stories.

Maybe so, but the humans get miles more screentime. The non-humans only got character development in book 4. This story is speciesist propaganda!

[Leolo]

I think part of this is that elan started on a lower level of competence. He has much more to learn and this makes much more character development possible.

So i do see Elan becoming a hero as one huge part of the story, much more than "stop Xykon", it is just not the only part. The other characters grow, too.

[Froggie]

Tarquin doesn't mean that Elan gets too little screen time, it's that he is not fulfilling the role of hero in the right way; that is, he's not action oriented and a great fighter. He pretty much said so outright before ordering the attack.

Elan is a supporting character in that he is a class that is considered support oriented. Tarquin is afraid that this will lead to him becoming a support character in the narrative, something which is incredibly common in most media.

His concern isn't about Elan being a hero in the story. He's concerned that Elan isn't "The Hero" of the story. The two are not the same thing, and Tarquin has shown time and again that he believes firmly that traditional narrative convention is the only way to go, and as such Elan must become "The Hero" for this to work the way it should.

It's a twisted logic, but it does make sense if you look at it in such a way as Tarquin does.

[strijder20]

Plot importance:

1. Roy (just because the entire main plot is devoted to him, bandit camp, heaven arc)

2. Elan (Nale, Kubota, Therkla, Cliffport, Tarquin, relationship with Haley arcs)

3. Haley (Greysky city, relationship with Elan, Ian Starshine, gibberish-speaking Azure Resistance arc)

4. Vaarsuvius (Darth V. , IFCC arc)

5. Belkar (Mr. Scruffy, Ian Starshine arc)

6. Durkon (Vampire arc)

Notice that this list is far from exhaustive and most arcs also feature other OOTS members regularly.

[zimmerwald1915]

OotS is not any single character's story, it features an ensemble cast. Says it right on the label: Order of the Stick, as in the whole party.
And yet in the Don't Split the Party commentary the Giant called The Order of the Stick more Roy's story than anyone else's.

[hamishspence]

Or at least, that it could be argued so:

"One could argue that Roy is the main character of The Order of the Stick. Certainly he is the team leader, which makes him the driving force behind the team's exploits and the glue that bind them together."

The other characters are referred to as "main characters" but only Roy is referred to as "my protagonist."

Elan was invented first according to Dungeon Crawling Fools, though.

[Math_Mage]

Tarquin doesn't think Elan is a minor character. He thinks Elan is the hero's sidekick whose heroic potential is being held back by Roy. He's wrong about that, but it's not because Elan is a major character, because Tarquin has always thought of Elan as a major character, and still does.

[Lino]

I always saw the whole Order as being the hero. In my view, Roy is the leader, not the main character. Then again, if the author says it's different, perhaps the future storylines will make me change my mind. But so far, Roy was absent from some important storylines (perhaps not important in terms of how many comics, but in terms of how much I cared for them).

[Weiser_Cain]

I just think Rich is a goofball and Elan is his Avatar.

[Diadem]

Elan was actually the first character that Rich created. So while the story line is more focused on Roy, it's no surprise that Elan gets a lot of love and attention.

[Weiser_Cain]

Elan was actually the first character that Rich created.

Citation needed

[martianmister]

Citation needed

------------------->


Elan was invented first according to Dungeon Crawling Fools, though.

[Weiser_Cain]

Ha, didn't even need to leave the thread.

[Reddish Mage]

Or at least, that it could be argued so:

"One could argue that Roy is the main character of The Order of the Stick. Certainly he is the team leader, which makes him the driving force behind the team's exploits and the glue that bind them together."

The other characters are referred to as "main characters" but only Roy is referred to as "my protagonist."

Elan was invented first according to Dungeon Crawling Fools, though.

Rukia was the first character Tite Kubo wrote for Bleach but then Ichigo was created because Rukia "didn't seem like a main character." Notice that Roy is sidelined whenever Elan stars in his own story.

[Morty]

You're assuming Tarquin looks at it this way. He doesn't. To him, the only real hero is the one who takes the spotlight, fights on the front line and throws one-liners. Everyone else is just background.

[zimmerwald1915]

You're assuming Tarquin looks at it this way. He doesn't. To him, the only real hero is the one who takes the spotlight, fights on the front line and throws one-liners. Everyone else is just background.
Is he wrong?

[Morty]

Obviously, he is, unless you're going to argue that Elan, Haley, Durkon, Belkar and V are just background.

[karkus]

Recently, Roy has become the supporting character in Elan's story :smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

The first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) Roy gets any special plot attention and his family first shows up it's used to foreshadow Elan's family subplot. Elan > Roy

[zimmerwald1915]

Obviously, he is, unless you're going to argue that Elan, Haley, Durkon, Belkar and V are just background.
I've argued exactly that :smallwink:

[Morty]

In which case either your perception of those characters or your perception of narrative significance is about as valid as Tarquin's.

[zimmerwald1915]

In which case either your perception of those characters or your perception of narrative significance is about as valid as Tarquin's.
That seems like circular reasoning. In any case, The Order of the Stick might have a large cast of supporting characters, but it is not an ensemble work.

[Morty]

There's a vast gulf between 'supporting character' and 'background'. According to Tarquin, the first category doesn't exist. Either you're the hero, or you're a disposable background for the hero.

[Mike Havran]

There's a vast gulf between 'supporting character' and 'background'. According to Tarquin, the first category doesn't exist. Either you're the hero, or you're a disposable background for the hero.Since Tarquin said that Elan is in danger of becoming a supporting character, he is clearly aware of that category.

[Morty]

He's aware, but he conflates it with the 'disposable background' category.

[Kish]

Since Tarquin said that Elan is in danger of becoming a supporting character, he is clearly aware of that category.
Really? You think so? I think, rather, that Tarquin's words (and Rich's pointing out that, to Tarquin, this scene consists of Tarquin and his sons and everyone else there is background, including Laurin and Miron) indicate that Tarquin considers "supporting character" interchangeable with "disposable background."

(He does recognize a third category; he clearly considers THE VILLAIN, which is to say Tarquin, at least as important as the hero. Anyone else, though? Pfft.)

[Emanick]

Really? You think so? I think, rather, that Tarquin's words (and Rich's pointing out that, to Tarquin, this scene consists of Tarquin and his sons and everyone else there is background, including Laurin and Miron) indicate that Tarquin considers "supporting character" interchangeable with "disposable background."

(He does recognize a third category; he clearly considers THE VILLAIN, which is to say Tarquin, at least as important as the hero. Anyone else, though? Pfft.)

I think that he can tell the difference between the two categories but simply isn't any less willing to kill a supporting character than he is a member of the "disposable background." It's not a moral distinction, so the fact that he's aware of of the difference is small comfort to those around him, but he's aware of the distinction nonetheless.

After all, Tarquin is a master of theatrics, if nothing else. The idea that he wouldn't understand a basic literary concept is odd, and I'd need a pretty compelling reason to buy it.

[AstralFire]

I think that he can tell the difference between the two categories but simply isn't any less willing to kill a supporting character than he is a member of the "disposable background." It's not a moral distinction, so the fact that he's aware of of the difference is small comfort to those around him, but he's aware of the distinction nonetheless.

After all, Tarquin is a master of theatrics, if nothing else. The idea that he wouldn't understand a basic literary concept is odd, and I'd need a pretty compelling reason to buy it.

Agreed. I think we're getting "I hate Tarquin" conflation in the logic here.

This is the way I think Tarquin sees it: If Elan is merely one of the companions in Roy's tale, any bard that gives the condensed "action movie" version of the script is pretty largely going to cut most of Elan's good moments out of it. Elan is arguably the larger protagonist of the story, but Roy's the main character (as the ultimate narrative is shaped by his plot) and the hero. Two out of three means abridgments and adaptations will go to him.

That means Tarquin's story will get cut out, and Tarquin wants to both be able to play the long game of the "safe villain" and get the bombastic larger-than-life tales of the "megalomaniacal villain." He wants A-List billing. But if Elan became the main character and the hero, the story would begin in Cliffport and end in the Empire of Blood.

[rodneyAnonymous]

And yet in the Don't Split the Party commentary the Giant called The Order of the Stick more Roy's story than anyone else's.

That does not contradict the assertion that it is also the rest of the Order's story. Just more Roy's.

[Gift Jeraff]

Elan's story comprise the majority of the meat that is the OOTS plot.
Roy's story comprises most of the bone.

[Necris Omega]

From a motivation standpoint this is more Roy's story than anyone else, but really, the development, exposure, and importance of every member of OotS is, I would argue, on par with Roy. Roy has the personal vendetta and annoying pseudo-purgatory bound father, sure. Fine. Whatever.

But I would hardly call him the "star" of the comic. Roy's important, but not important enough not to up and kill with all the ceremony and fanfare of Wile E Coyote falling off a cliff.

"Thinks the whole campaign revolves around him." ~ The Oracle.

This is by no means The Adventures of Roy and the Order of the Stick, it simply IS Order of the Stick. In a less competent narrative, that might be what this turned into, but Tarquin clearly doesn't know the Giant like we do. Elan might not be in the forefront, he's by no means inconsequential.

Besides, who has the squishy bard spearhead things anyways?

[Ellye]

Ever since OotS became a serious story, Elan has been becoming more and more the true protagonist of this story.

Yes, Roy is the one that drives the plot forward, but the story itself is much more about Elan than about him, for me.

[Mike Havran]

Ever since OotS became a serious story, Elan has been becoming more and more the true protagonist of this story.

Yes, Roy is the one that drives the plot forward, but the story itself is much more about Elan than about him, for me.I agree. Of the PC's it's Elan who has changed and grown the most.

[The Oni]

Just to address the non-human characters' shtick, do consider:

Durkon and Vaarsuvius are much older than Roy, Elan or Haley, simply by the long-lived nature of their races. They didn't get as much character development because they have already, in many respects, developed. Elves and Dwarves live slow and change slow, so it makes sense that, when they aren't being directly acted upon, their character development is not obvious.

Belkar has definitely been developing - he just had to be forced into it. His Wisdom is too low to recognize there's a need for development.

[Bulldog Psion]

I always thought, for whatever reason, that Haley is the main character.

[veti]

I've always thought, since I started reading, that Elan was the most central character, and the one I was most confident would survive. Even now I think the end of the story could involve Roy dying (permanently), but not Elan. He's got to live, to tell the story.

[Lino]

Didn't the Oracle said to Elan that the story will have a happy ending for him?

[ChristianSt]

Didn't the Oracle said to Elan that the story will have a happy ending for him?

Yes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) - but maybe there could be a happy ending that involves Elan dying. Especially when factoring in bardic tradition. (But I think that he and Haley will survive for sure)

[Chantelune]

I think that this feeling is mostly due to the fact that the current book is focused on Elan's family, so it naturally gives him more spotlight. The next one might give the feeling that another character has more plot devoted to him/her (which might be Durkon as they should go near his homeland next, with maybe the fulfilement of his prohecy).

[Ghost Nappa]

Elan's story comprise the majority of the meat that is the OOTS plot.
Roy's story comprises most of the bone.

This. The Greenhilt Vs. Xykon conflict is the overarching structure of The Order of the Stick starting chronologically in-universe in SoD (which is not a spoiler, per say. Read the page on the book itself. (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html)) Roy's characterization, drives, and such are almost ALL in the Greenhilt/Xykon conflict, or in him being the Leader of the Order.

Comparison: see Roland in Borderlands 2. They're both "the Soldier", thoroughly intelligent, "the Leader", black, and die mid-way through the story fighting the main villain. All of their characterization is in the main story (so you don't try to do Roland sidequests after he's dead.)

Elan and Roy are rather unique relationship-wise in how they meet. Durkon and Roy meet each other in a previous party and continue on, Haley, V and Belkar are recruited in a Tavern. Elan helps Roy FORM the Order by telling him how to be interesting enough for people to want to join.

[Liliet]

Tarquin just confused the medium, not even a genre. He doesn't realise that this is a long series, not a movie or a handful of movies like Star Wars.

[Morty]

Honestly, I can't shake off the feeling that the story Tarquin believes himself to be in would be dreadfully dull, unoriginal and full of cardboard cutouts that only serve as props for him and his hero son.

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I can't shake off the feeling that the story Tarquin believes himself to be in would be dreadfully dull, unoriginal and full of cardboard cutouts that only serve as props for him and his hero son.

I thought this was a well-established fact.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Elan isn't even a supporting character so much as Order of the Stick is an ensemble story. It has six protagonists.

Tarquin fails to see that because he's where Nale got his insane egotism and unlike Nale has a lifetime of experience to justify it with. He assumes everything has to be about him and his family, and everyone else is just going through the motions. That's probably the core of his villainy, right there. He believes the story/world revolves around him, and therefore everyone else is secondary to his needs.

[Lombard]

Elan and V are both good examples of how min-maxers rarely work as viable 'main characters'. It's surprising that Tarquin doesn't recognize this about Elan, as he is clearly not a min-maxed build. In some ways you could call this one of the most unbelievable things about the book- the fact that Tarquin, who is certainly no dull blade, seems unable to realize that Elan is dumber than a box of rocks.

[Imgran]

Tarquin doesn't think Elan is a minor character. He thinks Elan is the hero's sidekick whose heroic potential is being held back by Roy. He's wrong about that, but it's not because Elan is a major character, because Tarquin has always thought of Elan as a major character, and still does.

Ahh, but he's not wrong on the critical point. Roy IS holding Elan back.

Think back to any single incident of Elan CMOA, and ask yourself this question:

Was Roy there?

From Roy's perspective Elan is a cut-up and a loose cannon who's just as likely to get him killed, or temporarily turned into a woman, or drive him half-insane with random inanities and nonsense, or just plain be the party anchor at a critical time, than he is to do something -- ANYTHING -- useful. Because when Roy's around, that's exactly what Elan is.

When he's on his own, or with just Haley around, he's quick enough within his own understanding -- he's personally outwitted both Nale and Sabine combined more than once and has shown himself able to both lead and plan on his own when he has to -- but when Roy is around, he feels he doesn't have to, so he doesn't even try. For some reason Elan has a hard time asserting himself when Roy is around. Try to prove that wrong, and you'll start to see where Tarquin is coming from.

Of course, Tarquin's solution is wrong, but it's because he's addressing the problem the wrong way, not because he's misidentified what the problem actually is.

[Leolo]

Plus Tarquin seems to only see the negative effects of Roy to Elan. But all that Elan has done, all heroic things when Roy was not arround are done that way because Elan has been influenced by Roy, Haley and the other members.

They have brought him to the point that when he is alone he can be a hero. The next step has to be "Be also a hero when Roy is arround", not "Be a hero without ever having Roy arround again".

I think we will see this next step in the comic, but it will take more time. More realization of elan that his dad mentioned a critical point, but was wrong nevertheless.

In the end i can not imagine a final climax without Elan. It would feel wrong. And i don't see an end where only Roy and V and Durkon do all the work, while Haley and Elan do nothing or only support them by not standing in the way.

No, if they want a chance against Xykon every little bit of their character's potential is needed. And therefore we will see more character development.

[Weiser_Cain]

Ahh, but he's not wrong on the critical point. Roy IS holding Elan back.

Think back to any single incident of Elan CMOA, and ask yourself this question:

Was Roy there?

From Roy's perspective Elan is a cut-up and a loose cannon who's just as likely to get him killed, or temporarily turned into a woman, or drive him half-insane with random inanities and nonsense, or just plain be the party anchor at a critical time, than he is to do something -- ANYTHING -- useful. Because when Roy's around, that's exactly what Elan is.

When he's on his own, or with just Haley around, he's quick enough within his own understanding -- he's personally outwitted both Nale and Sabine combined more than once and has shown himself able to both lead and plan on his own when he has to -- but when Roy is around, he feels he doesn't have to, so he doesn't even try. For some reason Elan has a hard time asserting himself when Roy is around. Try to prove that wrong, and you'll start to see where Tarquin is coming from.

Of course, Tarquin's solution is wrong, but it's because he's addressing the problem the wrong way, not because he's misidentified what the problem actually is.
On the other hand while Roy was dead Xylon had the run of the place and the team was split.

[Kish]

Ahh, but he's not wrong on the critical point. Roy IS holding Elan back.

Think back to any single incident of Elan CMOA, and ask yourself this question:

Was Roy there?
Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)

I don't know what else you'd consider a "CMOA" for Elan, but I wholly disagree with your implication that Elan somehow blossomed when Roy was not around, and Elan was covering one of his eyes with an unneeded eyepatch and making assumptions about ninja superheroes.

[Imgran]

That was pretty recent, and it's literally the only time Roy has gotten to see the real Elan. And more to the point, it occurred only after Tarquin's last opportunity to assess Elan's real progress.

Remember this happened maybe as many as 3 strips after Roy shouted "you don't count!" at Elan, in exactly those words (now granted, he may have strictly been talking about Elan as a spellcaster, but that's still not something you say to someone you have any real respect for). And Elan said nothing to defend himself and just took it on the chin. I can't think of a single other member of the Order who would have taken that statement at face value and said nothing, can you?

Which is the problem with Elan's relationship with Roy. Everyone else recognizes Roy as a leader but treats each other more or less as equals. Elan is more or less completely submissive to Roy, and that's not healthy. That's why Tarquin does have a point here. Elan really does need to learn to stand up to Roy and earn Roy's respect, which he won't do if he always just goes along with whatever Roy says and thinks.

[Kish]

...the real Elan? The real Elan is a moron. He is not only "real" when he's being awesome, and somehow "unreal" when he's watching a parade of horrifically evil food and hearing his father openly taunt a woman about having had her husband killed, and thinking, "Man, my father sure does a lot of things by accident that would look like he was evil if I didn't know better."

[Mike Havran]

Elan was pretty on the mark with Kubota's evil. I think one reason he was so blind to Tarquin is that he has an unhealthy respect towards Roy-like figures: strong, charismatic, melee-based characters. Hinjo was also one of them, and Sir Francois might have been as well. Towards those guys, he is pretty much completely submissive, unless they deliver the punch strongly enough (Tarquin).

How much is this supposed to reflect the fact he's grown up without a father, I don't know.

[veti]

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0889.html)

I don't know what else you'd consider a "CMOA" for Elan, but I wholly disagree with your implication that Elan somehow blossomed when Roy was not around, and Elan was covering one of his eyes with an unneeded eyepatch and making assumptions about ninja superheroes.

I would guess that Elan's CMOA-sans-Roy would be his escape from Cliffport and independent travel to Azure City. Also, possibly, the scene with the orcs on the island.

But your point is well taken.

[hagnat]

Elan's story comprise the majority of the meat that is the OOTS plot.
Roy's story comprises most of the bone.

given the fact that
a) roy has spent 90% of a story arc in bones
b) roy's main villain is only bones (and a shiny crown)
i think you are right to say that Roy is the 'bone' of the story

[Mike Havran]

given the fact that
a) roy has spent 90% of a story arc in bones
b) roy's main villain is only bones (and a shiny crown)
i think you are right to say that Roy is the 'bone' of the story
He also wanted to bone Miko at some point.

[Bulldog Psion]

He also wanted to bone Miko at some point.

:roy: "Can everyone stop using the word 'bone' as a verb?!?"

:smallwink:

[Gift Jeraff]

He also wanted to bone Miko at some point.

He also tends to be in situations where it looks like he and his party are totally boned.

[Imgran]

Elan and V are both good examples of how min-maxers rarely work as viable 'main characters'. It's surprising that Tarquin doesn't recognize this about Elan, as he is clearly not a min-maxed build. In some ways you could call this one of the most unbelievable things about the book- the fact that Tarquin, who is certainly no dull blade, seems unable to realize that Elan is dumber than a box of rocks.

He's really not.

Elan is naive, not stupid. Again, when he has to be, he's shown to have a good head in a crisis, his biggest problem is that he'll believe anything as long as it coincides with what he wants to believe and he has no direct reason to doubt it. He approaches the world with childlike wonder, and people who mistake cynicism for intelligence will mistake his naivete for stupidity.

If he made the same mistake twice, then he'd be stupid. One seems to be all Elan needs most of the time, once he's finally felt the clue-by-four the storyline has been hitting him with for the past several strips anyway, so it's naivete.

[Emanick]

There are different kinds of stupidity. Elan may be quick on his feet in a crisis, but that doesn't mean he's not genuinely stupid in many ways. It's hard to argue that somebody who can conclude that paladins need to marry and have kids in order to repopulate the paladin species isn't missing a few key parts in the Intelligence department. That's not childlike wonder, that's just being kind of dumb.

Of course, Elan isn't one-dimensional about his foolishness. Although he's genuinely pretty stupid, he can and does learn from his mistakes, just like foolish people in real life who are eager and honest and happy to work to improve themselves. That's what makes him such a terrific character.

[Imgran]

There are different kinds of stupidity. Elan may be quick on his feet in a crisis, but that doesn't mean he's not genuinely stupid in many ways. It's hard to argue that somebody who can conclude that paladins need to marry and have kids in order to repopulate the paladin species isn't missing a few key parts in the Intelligence department. That's not childlike wonder, that's just being kind of dumb.

Of course, Elan isn't one-dimensional about his foolishness. Although he's genuinely pretty stupid, he can and does learn from his mistakes, just like foolish people in real life who are eager and honest and happy to work to improve themselves. That's what makes him such a terrific character.

That's not stupidity, that's ignorance. Again, as with naivete, there's a difference.

I hate it when people mistake every form of imperfect knowledge or wisdom for lack of intelligence. There's a pretty big difference between ignorance, naivete, apathy, stubbornness, and outright stupidity. Each is its own slightly different flaw, and some very intelligent people who no one could accuse of being stupid, are guilty of one or more of the others.

Elan is actually pretty intelligent. he shows that by not just a willingness but an ability to learn from his mistakes. Believe me, that is by no means common among the truly stupid. Look how hard it was for Belkar. Elan's problem stems from a combination of mediocre wisdom, a lack of real world experience, and an almost fatally optimistic outlook. that's naivete by any other name, and it is not a form of stupidity, if it's a lack of any D&D attribute, Wisdom is the obvious culprit.

[Forikroder]

He's really not.

Elan is naive, not stupid. Again, when he has to be, he's shown to have a good head in a crisis, his biggest problem is that he'll believe anything as long as it coincides with what he wants to believe and he has no direct reason to doubt it. He approaches the world with childlike wonder, and people who mistake cynicism for intelligence will mistake his naivete for stupidity.

If he made the same mistake twice, then he'd be stupid. One seems to be all Elan needs most of the time, once he's finally felt the clue-by-four the storyline has been hitting him with for the past several strips anyway, so it's naivete.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html

he worships a hand puppet, how is that not enough to label him as stupid

[Imgran]

Do not bring religion into the thread as a barometer of intelligence, please. That will take this forum into a bad place.

[Forikroder]

Do not bring religion and intelligence into the same sphere. That will take this forum into a bad place.

he worships a hand puppet he personally created and thinks its an actual god

[Imgran]

he worships a hand puppet he personally created and thinks its an actual god

You really going to insist on going there? It's not going to take long before people start citing real world examples based on their own prejudices. In the interests of not letting this thread get locked, I'd rather avoid that avenue of discussion, please.

[Forikroder]

You really going to insist on going there? It's not going to take long before people start citing real world examples.

okay even if you want to ignore that he worships something he himself literally created what about he massive amount of other stupid stuff he does?

like saying they should cross the line twice so it will unzap them

or waiting until after he had a heart to heart with Durkon and V before warning them about the trolls eating the civilians

or thinking that V is half camel

[Imgran]

okay even if you want to ignore that he worships something he himself literally created what about he massive amount of other stupid stuff he does?

like saying they should cross the line twice so it will unzap them

or waiting until after he had a heart to heart with Durkon and V before warning them about the trolls eating the civilians

or thinking that V is half camel

If you want to insist on conflating ignorance with stupidity, this discussion is over. Elan is ignorant, but ignorance all by itself is not stupidity. Every possible deficit in intelligence, wisdom and experience does not fall under an umbrella term "stupid," and those who believe and practice the language otherwise, are displaying no small amount of ignorance of their own.

Intelligence is its very own attribute that covers a specific range of abilities, including the ability to perceive and learn and gain knowledge from experience. Lumping all these other attributes in with intelligence (or its lack) as if it's the same thing just declarifies the language and reveals a certain ignorance in the speaker.

[Forikroder]

If you want to insist on conflating ignorance with stupidity, this discussion is over. Elan is ignorant, but ignorance all by itself is not stupidity. Every possible deficit in intelligence, wisdom and experience does not fall under an umbrella term "stupid," and those who believe and practice the language otherwise, are displaying no small amount of ignorance of their own.

Intelligence is its very own attribute that covers a specific range of abilities, including the ability to perceive and learn and gain knowledge from experience. Lumping all these other attributes in with intelligence (or its lack) as if it's the same thing just declarifies the language and reveals a certain ignorance in the speaker.

to think that V is half-camel is not due to "ignorance" its pretty stupid to think that V is half camel, a basic understanding of what a camel is should be enough to tell that V is not half camel

then theres other examples like in the ABDs cave playing eye spy and only picking dragon 3 times in a row and thinking the other person is psychic becuase they guessed right

or his fantasy about Tarquin adopting roy and making them brothers for real

or his lines here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html

Elan has demonstrated the inability to do things that should be easy to do assuming a basic education, which im sure he got considering he grew up in a peaceful area with a very smart mother, he has demonstrated that hes neither a good learner nor good at figuring new things out at all

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html

if you want i can find other strips demonstrating his stupidity

[hamishspence]

You really going to insist on going there? It's not going to take long before people start citing real world examples based on their own prejudices. In the interests of not letting this thread get locked, I'd rather avoid that avenue of discussion, please.

Indeed. Better to cite D&D examples, if any examples at all.

In Eberron, there's a group of warforged that worship a god that they are fully aware does not exist yet- because they themselves are the ones building him, and he's nowhere near complete.

Their clerics still gain clerical powers.

Or, to spoof the Iron Man meme:

"The Warforged are building a god in a cave! With a MOUNTAIN OF SCRAPS!" :smallamused:

[Emanick]

If you want to insist on conflating ignorance with stupidity, this discussion is over. Elan is ignorant, but ignorance all by itself is not stupidity. Every possible deficit in intelligence, wisdom and experience does not fall under an umbrella term "stupid," and those who believe and practice the language otherwise, are displaying no small amount of ignorance of their own.

Intelligence is its very own attribute that covers a specific range of abilities, including the ability to perceive and learn and gain knowledge from experience. Lumping all these other attributes in with intelligence (or its lack) as if it's the same thing just declarifies the language and reveals a certain ignorance in the speaker.
ig·no·rance [ig-ner-uhns] noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

stupid (ˈstjuːpɪd) adj
1. lacking in common sense, perception, or normal intelligence

Nearly all of the examples Forikroder and I just cited are instances in which Elan displayed a lack of common sense. (After all, most people aren't TOLD that paladins are a class rather than a race; they can figure this out on their own. The fact that Elan can't is a perception and common sense deficit, not a knowledge one.) The Giant has even mentioned in commentary that his go-to joke is (or used to be) "LOL Elan is dumb!" It's pretty darn obvious that Elan has low Intelligence if even the author calls him dumb.

[Lombard]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0786.html

Belkar's comment sort of speaks to the obvious... don't make me dig up the strip where he's getting beat on the head as a baby

Elan CHA 18 INT 8 WIS.. what... 10 at the most?

Min-max build

btw, I genuinely lol'd: :thog:


Elan is actually pretty intelligent.

[Bulldog Psion]

I personally think that Elan is both stupid AND ignorant.

That doesn't change the fact that I like him. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Yeah, Elan is Dumb as Mud.

[Liliet]

Actually, worshipping Banjo makes Elan not an idiot, but a genius.

He actually created his very own god. Actual god, not just an imagination construct. The very first page where Banjo appears has him smite Roy with a lightning. That's where it turns from a joke into "whaaa... what did Elan just do?" And later Thor and Odin did not regard Banjo joining their pantheon as a joke, they actually saw that as a possibility. Even if we ignore that as a couple of jokes (although Rich's jokes never seemed to break continuity before), there's the fact that Elan managed to convert orcs on the island to his religion and won an encounter that way. It worked.

Of course, it requires rather... special thinking process to be able to genuinely worship something you know you just made up, but overall, Elan seems to have pretty good grasp on how religion in this setting works, even if it's different from "common sense". After all, Earth orbiting around the Sun was pretty counterintuitive at the time when it wasn't public knowledge, wasn't it?

And Elan thinking that V is half-camel was not ignorance or stupidity; it was childish inability to percieve context and tell where the game should be separated from reality. For Elan, the whole world is one big make-believe. He's gradually getting a grasp of how serious some things really are, but this does not prevent him from returning to old games if they are fun. He pretended to believe that V was half-camel, just the way he pretended that Banjo was a god (which actually worked and changed reality in this setting), that he could turn into a dinosaur and that standing on one hand and doing all the other stupid stuff while being covered in jam was "adventure".

Sure, for a guy of his age it means being rather harshly mentally challenged (presumably as a result of Nale hitting them on the head when they were babies), but he is NOT "just stupid".

[Weiser_Cain]

Banjo is more about how D&D deities work.

[ReaderAt2046]

he worships a hand puppet he personally created and thinks its an actual god

It is an actual god. See the thundersmite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).

[Mike Havran]

It is an actual god. See the thundersmite (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html).It could be just a figment of Elan's already vivid imagination. Roy didn't feel anything, not even the tiny zap from static charge.

[Liliet]

It could be just a figment of Elan's already vivid imagination. Roy didn't feel anything, not even the tiny zap from static charge.

Was the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) also Elan's imagination?

Besides, I doubt Elan would imagine such tiny and ineffectual thunder. And actual smiting fits better as a punchline.

[Mike Havran]

Was the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html) also Elan's imagination?

Besides, I doubt Elan would imagine such tiny and ineffectual thunder. And actual smiting fits better as a punchline.The last panel has nothing to do with Banjo being anything else than a puppet, and much more to do with being a throwaway joke (if the gods were really watching banjo, why isn't Freya involved? It was her temple, after all).

Elan would imagine anything which fits well enough with the reality, in which Roy was completely unaffected.

[Dodom]

I'd say it's hard to judge on Elan's global intelligence because for a large part he thinks *differently*. A lot of his thoughts are devoted to his own little inner world, he's candid enough to expect some part of it to reflect in reality, and mouthing his very random ideas makes him sound dumber than he really is.
When is that stupidity? When it makes him less functional dealing with reality. It's known to happen, so he's at least a little stupid, but he's also shown to be capable of figuring situations out, so he's not *very* stupid.