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ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-26, 12:04 AM

Looking at the campaigns I've run in the past, I've noticed an overwhelming trend for my players to pick humans. It's not just the role playing aspect; often they've started out with a mild interest in playing another race, but then they notice that the human is mechanically superior and go with that nearly every time. I was wondering what it would take to increase the diversity of the less common races, such as creating incentives along the lines of JaronK's tier list for classes (lower tier=higher point buy). But to do that would require a tier list...

So I had the vague idea of putting together a sort of tier list for races. Races should be rated not only on power, but on versatility (hey, just like the class tier list!). Gray elves may make really good wizards (tier 2), but humans make a good everything (tier 1).

And here's where the playground comes in; what are the relative power levels of the various races? What does it take to equal a bonus feat, additional skill ranks, and +2 to any attribute? Mechanically, what does it take to get you to play a race (try to ignore even the awesomest of fluff for the purpose of this discussion)?

What started out as an attempt to quickly and simply rank each race has now evolved into something much, much bigger. We are now attempting to rate each race by class/archetype/ACF and compile these ratings into one useful place. These ratings can then be used to see what roles each race excels at and where each race has difficulties. So if a group decides that they want to go the "All Gnome Party!" route, they can use this to make sure all the roles are covered with optimal or mostly optimal choices (credit to Psyren for that last line).

The rating system will be as follows:
Great: Excels in the intended role of the class. One of the best options.
Good: Capable of performing well in the intended role of the class. A solid choice.
Average: Neither excels nor fails in the intended role of the class. An average choice.
Poor: Struggles in the intended role of the class. Avoid these unless you really, really like the flavor.
Terrible: Fails to succeed in the intended role of the class. An awful choice.
N/A: Cannot enter the class. Used for racial archetypes.

Note: This rating system is based solely on relative power within each class/archetype. Ratings are based on "given class X, race Y has rating Z" not "given race Y, play a wizard."

Fax Celestis's 3.5 Class/Race Tier List (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dEROQ2Z2SXM0YmhuRXFkUnUyTFFkN 0E#gid=0)

Pathfinder Class/Race Tier List
Core Classes
Barbarian
{table=head] | Barbarian | Armored Hulk | Breaker | Brutal Pugilist | Drunken Brute | Elemental Kin | Feral Gnasher | Hateful Rager | Hurler | Invulnerable Rager | Mad Dog | Mounted Fury | Savage Barbarian | Scarred Rager | Sea Reaver | Superstitious | Titan Mauler | Totem Rager | True Primitive | Urban Barbarian | Wild Rager
Aasimar | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Android | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Blue | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Catfolk | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Changeling | Average | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Dhampir | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Dromite | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Drow | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Duergar | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Duergar, Psionic | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Dwarf | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Elan | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Elf | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Fetchling | Average | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ghoran | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Gillmen | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Goblin | Poor | | | | | | | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Goblin, Monkey | Poor | | | | | | | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Gnome | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Grippli | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Half-Elf | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Half-Giant | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Half-Orc | Good | | | | | | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Halfling | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hobgoblin | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Human | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ifrit | Average | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Kitsune | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Kobold | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Lashunta, Male | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Lashunta, Female | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Maenad | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Merfolk | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Nagaji | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ophiduan | Average | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Orc | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Oread | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ratfolk | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Samsaran | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Strix | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Suli | Great | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Svirfneblin | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Sylph | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Tengu | Good | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Tiefling | Average | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Undine | Terrible | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Vanara | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Vishkanya | Average | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Wayang | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Xeph | Poor | | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |[/table]

Bard
{table=head] | Bard | Animal Speaker | Arcane Duelist | Archaeologist | Archivist | Buccaneer | Celebrity | Court Bard | Daredevil| Dervish of Dawn | Demagogue | Detective | Dervish Dancer | Dirge Bard | Diva | Dragon Herald | Geisha | Lotus Geisha | Magician | Prankster | Sandman | Savage Skald | Sea Singer | Shadow Puppeteer | Songhealer | Sound Striker | Street Performer | Thundercaller | Masterpieces | Watersinger
Aasimar | Great | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Android | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Blue | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Catfolk | Great | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Changeling | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Dhampir | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Dromite | Great | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Drow | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Duergar | Terrible | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Duergar, Psionic | Terrible | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Dwarf | Terrible | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Elan | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Elf | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Fetchling | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Ghoran | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Gillmen | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Gnome | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | ? | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Goblin | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Goblin, Monkey | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Grippli | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Half-Elf | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Half-Giant | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Half-Orc | Great | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Halfling | Great | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Human | Great | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Hobgoblin | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Ifrit | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Kitsune | Great | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Kobold | Terrible | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Poor | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Lashunta, Male | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Lashunta, Female | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Maenad | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Merfolk | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Nagaji | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Ophiduan | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Orc | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Oread | Terrible | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Ratfolk | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Samsaran | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Strix | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Suli | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Svirfneblin | Terrible | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Sylph | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Tengu | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Tiefling | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Undine | Average | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | ?
Vanara | Terrible | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Vishkanya | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A
Wayang | Poor | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | ? | | | | | | | N/A
Xeph | Good | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | | | N/A [/table]

Cleric
{table=head] | Cleric
Aasimar | Great
Android | Terrible
Blue | Average
Catfolk | Terrible
Changeling | Good
Dhampir | Terrible
Dromite | Average
Drow | Average
Duergar | Average
Duergar, Psionic | Great
Dwarf | Good
Elan | Average
Elf | Terrible
Fetchling | Terrible
Ghoran | Poor
Gillmen | Terrible
Gnome | Poor
Goblin | Poor
Goblin, Monkey | Poor
Grippli | Good
Half-Elf | Good
Half-Giant | Great
Half-Orc | Good
Halfling | Average
Human | Great
Hobgoblin | Average
Ifrit | Terrible
Kitsune | Average
Kobold | Terrible
Lashunta, Male | Terrible
Lashunta, Female | Terrible
Maenad | Good
Merfolk | Good?
Nagaji | Average
Ophiduan | Average
Orc | Terrible
Oread | Good
Ratfolk | Terrible
Samsaran | Great
Strix | Average
Suli | Average
Svirfneblin | Poor
Sylph | Poor
Tengu | Good
Tiefling | Great*
Undine | Good
Vanara | Good
Vishkanya | Terrible
Wayang | Terrible
Xeph | Poor [/table]

Druid
{table=head] | Druid
Aasimar | Great*
Android | Average
Blue | Poor
Catfolk | Terrible
Changeling | Average
Dhampir | Terrible
Dromite | Terrible
Drow | Poor
Duergar | Great
Duergar, Psionic | Great
Dwarf | Great
Elan | Good
Elf | Terrible
Fetchling | Terrible
Ghoran | Poor
Gillmen | Terrible
Gnome | Average
Goblin | Poor
Goblin, Monkey | Terrible
Grippli | Great
Half-Elf | Great
Half-Giant | Great
Half-Orc | Great
Halfling | Average
Human | Great
Hobgoblin | Good
Ifrit | Terrible
Kitsune | Poor
Kobold | Terrible
Lashunta, Male | Poor
Lashunta, Female | Poor
Maenad | Average
Merfolk | Good
Nagaji | Good
Ophiduan | Good
Orc | Terrible
Oread | Great
Ratfolk | Poor
Samsaran | Great
Strix | Average
Suli | Average
Svirfneblin | Good
Sylph | Poor
Tengu | Good
Tiefling | Great*
Undine | Good
Vanara | Great
Vishkanya | Terrible
Wayang | Terrible
Xeph | Poor [/table]

Fighter
{table=head] | Fighter
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human | Average
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Monk
{table=head] | Monk
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf | Poor
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Paladin
{table=head] | Paladin
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Ranger
{table=head] | Ranger
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Rogue
{table=head] | Rogue
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Sorcerer
{table=head] | Sorcerer
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf | Great
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human | Great
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold | Terrible
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Wizard
{table=head] | Wizard
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf | Great
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf | Great
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human | Great
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold | Terrible
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling | Great
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Base Classes
Alchemist
{table=head] | Mad Bomber | Mr. Hyde | Beastmorph | Bogborn Alchemist | Bramble Brewer | Chirurgeon | Clone Master | Crypt Breaker | Deep Bomber | Fire Bomber | Grenadier | Internal Alchemist | Mindchemist | Plague Bringer | Preservationist | Psychonaut | Rage Chemist | Reanimator | Saboteur | Visionary Researcher | Vivisectionist
Aasimar | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Android | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Blue | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Catfolk | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Changeling | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Dhampir | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Dromite | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Drow | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Duergar | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Duergar, Psionic | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Dwarf | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Elan | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Elf | Great | Average | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Fetchling | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Ghoran | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Gillmen | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Gnome | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | ? | |
Goblin | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | ? | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Goblin, Monkey | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | ? | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Grippli | | | | ? | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Half-Elf | | | | N/A | ? | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Half-Giant | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Half-Orc | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Halfling | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Human | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Hobgoblin | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | ? | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Ifrit | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Kitsune | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Kobold | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Lashunta | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Maenad | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Merfolk | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Nagaji | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Ophiduan | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Orc | Terrible | Good | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Oread | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Ratfolk | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | ? | | | | | N/A | |
Samsaran | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Strix | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Suli | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Svirfneblin | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | ? | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Sylph | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Tengu | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Tiefling | Great | Good | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Undine | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Vanara | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Vishkanya | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Wayang | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | |
Xeph | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | | | N/A | | | | | N/A | | [/table]

Cavalier
{table=head] | Cavalier
Aasimar |
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Gunslinger
{table=head] | Gunslinger | Buccaneer | Bushwacker | Experimental Gunsmith | Gulch Gunner | Gun Tank | Musket Master | Mysterious Stranger | Pistolero
Aasimar | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Android | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Blue | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Catfolk | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Changeling | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Dhampir | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Dromite | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Drow | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Duergar | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Duergar, Psionic | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Dwarf | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Elan | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Elf | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Fetchling | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Ghoran | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Gillmen | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Gnome | | N/A | N/A | ? | N/A | | | |
Goblin | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Goblin, Monkey | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Grippli | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Half-Elf | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Half-Giant | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Half-Orc | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Halfling | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Human | | ? | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Hobgoblin | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Ifrit | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Kitsune | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Kobold | | N/A | ? | N/A | N/A | | | |
Lashunta | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Maenad | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Merfolk | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Nagaji | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Ophiduan | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Orc | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Oread | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Ratfolk | | N/A | N/A | N/A | ? | | | |
Samsaran | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Strix | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Suli | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Svirfneblin | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Sylph | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Tengu | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Tiefling | Good | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Undine | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Vanara | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Vishkanya | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Wayang | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | |
Xeph | | N/A | N/A | N/A | N/A | | | | [/table]

Inquisitor
{table=head] | Inquisitor
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Magus
{table=head] | Magus
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf |
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Oracle
{table=head] | Oracle
Aasimar |
Android |
Blue |
Catfolk |
Changeling |
Dhampir |
Dromite |
Drow |
Duergar |
Duergar, Psionic |
Dwarf |
Elan |
Elf |
Fetchling |
Ghoran |
Gillmen |
Gnome |
Goblin |
Goblin, Monkey |
Grippli |
Half-Elf | Great
Half-Giant |
Half-Orc |
Halfling |
Human |
Hobgoblin |
Ifrit |
Kitsune |
Kobold |
Lashunta |
Maenad |
Merfolk |
Nagaji |
Ophiduan |
Orc |
Oread |
Ratfolk |
Samsaran |
Strix |
Suli |
Svirfneblin |
Sylph |
Tengu |
Tiefling |
Undine |
Vanara |
Vishkanya |
Wayang |
Xeph | [/table]

Summoner
{table=head] | Summoner | Blood God Disciple | Broodmaster | Evolutionist | First Worlder | Master Summoner | Shadow Caller | Shaitan Binder | Synthesist | Wild Caller
Aasimar | Good | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Android | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Blue | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Catfolk | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Changeling | Average | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Dhampir | Average | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Dromite | Good | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Drow | Average | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Duergar | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Duergar, Psionic | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Dwarf | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Elan | Average | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Elf | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Fetchling | Good | N/A | | | | | ? | N/A | | N/A
Ghoran | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Gillmen | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Gnome | Good | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Goblin | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Goblin, Monkey | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Grippli | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Half-Elf | Great | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | ?
Half-Giant | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Half-Orc | Good | ? | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Halfling | Good | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Human | Great | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Hobgoblin | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Ifrit | Good | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Kitsune | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Kobold | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | Average | N/A
Lashunta | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Maenad | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Merfolk | Average | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Nagaji | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Ophiduan | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Orc | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Oread | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | ? | | N/A
Ratfolk | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Samsaran | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Strix | Average | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Suli | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Svirfneblin | Terrible | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Sylph | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Tengu | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Tiefling | Average | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Undine | Poor | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Vanara | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Vishkanya | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Wayang | | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A
Xeph | Good | N/A | | | | | N/A | N/A | | N/A[/table]

Witch
{table=head] | Witch | Beast-Bonded | Bonded Witch | Dimensional Occultist | Dream Weaver | Gravewalker | Hedge Witch | Scarred Witch Doctor | Sea Witch | White-Haired Witch | Winter Witch
Aasimar | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Android | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Blue | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Catfolk | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Changeling | | | N/A | | ? | | | N/A | | |
Dhampir | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Dromite | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Drow | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Duergar | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Duergar, Psionic | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Dwarf | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Elan | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Elf | Great | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Fetchling | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Ghoran | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Gillmen | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Gnome | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Goblin | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Goblin, Monkey | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Grippli | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Half-Elf | | | ? | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Half-Giant | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Half-Orc | | | N/A | | N/A | | | Great | | |
Halfling | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Human | Great | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Hobgoblin | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Ifrit | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Kitsune | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Kobold | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Lashunta | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Maenad | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Merfolk | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Nagaji | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Ophiduan | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Orc | | | N/A | | N/A | | | Great | | |
Oread | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Ratfolk | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Samsaran | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Strix | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Suli | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Svirfneblin | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Sylph | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Tengu | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Tiefling | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Undine | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Vanara | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Vishkanya | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Wayang | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | |
Xeph | | | N/A | | N/A | | | N/A | | | [/table]

Notable third-party classes will also probably get a spot (Path of War classes, Occultist, Psionics, etc.).

I do not in any way imagine that I will be able to finish this project by myself. Any help would be greatly appreciated. So feel free to grab your favorite class and jump right in!

Emperor Tippy

2013-09-26, 12:09 AM

Elves are better than humans in everything. Thank you sexy, sexy, chaos shuffle. :smallwink:

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-26, 12:47 AM

If you are going to do this, it should be based on what the race is best at, not overall flexibility. If I'm playing a gray elf wizard, I don't care that my race makes for a lousy barbarian, because I'd never be taking barbarian levels anyway; it's effectively a meaningless flaw that I'd get a bonus for.

And the problem with THAT is then you force people to play the most optimised character they can, just to keep up. The player who wants a gray elf barbarian finds he has to put up with a low point buy (because gray elves make awesome wizards), which hinders the cool role-playing concept he has (maybe he wants to be a Tarzan expy).

The rating is 100% about some combination of power and flexibility. If I want to play that elf barbarian, it is simply not a good choice. But that doesn't make elves a weak race, because they make good wizards. Unlike, say, shifters, which are never recommended outside of incredibly niche builds which are rarely anything more than mediocre. Whereas with human you can pick any class and be golden.

But you are correct that the incentive system needs work. Let's just start with general rankings and go from there.

Elves are better than humans in everything. Thank you sexy, sexy, chaos shuffle. :smallwink:

Let's pretend, as an academic exercise, that we are not using chaos shuffle. :smalltongue:

avr

2013-09-26, 12:50 AM

If you were to do something like this I think you'd need to make it 3.x or PF; how you'd mesh the systems for 3.P would vary from game to game.

SciChronic

2013-09-26, 01:13 AM

Kobold would take the top because kobolds
then probably human/strongheart halfling because they can do every base class pretty well, after that it really comes down to a class by class basis, which is where the class handbooks come into play

If anything is needed, a X is a class skill for Y list would be really nice to have.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-26, 01:17 AM

If you were to do something like this I think you'd need to make it 3.x or PF; how you'd mesh the systems for 3.P would vary from game to game.

Good point. Let's start with PF then.

Kobold would take the top because kobolds
then probably human/strongheart halfling because they can do every base class pretty well, after that it really comes down to a class by class basis, which is where the class handbooks come into play

If anything is needed, a X is a class skill for Y list would be really nice to have.

At that point, it comes down to how many classes a race is rated highly for. If a race never makes the top five choices for any class, it's probably a pretty low tier.

SciChronic

2013-09-26, 01:24 AM

that doesn't really give us much information though without the context of the class. it would be a nice side project, but the knowledge it would give would be limited, because you'd have to essentially form partial handbooks for every class to get even a glimpse of some information.

X race is tier 3, because it is good for ABC classes, really doesnt tell much. The reason it is strong with those classes could vary widely and you'd have to explain each one.

Making a Race Tier list simply doesnt provide enough scope

Psyren

2013-09-26, 01:33 AM

Race tiers, if there can be such a thing, would be very close together in PF. I would probably put Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Humans, Aasimar and Samsarans in the upper tier, and then just about everybody else right below that. I don't see there being more than 2-3 tiers in PF. The psionic races would be tough to place due to how their bonus PP work.

3.5 of course is much wider; Humans, Gray Elves, Warforged, Elans and the lesser planetouched would probably be on top,

eggynack

2013-09-26, 01:36 AM

I don't think a tier system for races makes much sense at all. Race is incredibly class dependent. Sure, there are a few highly modular races that can be applied universally, but it doesn't actually affect anything. A race might be bad for nearly every class in the game, and be quite good on one class in particular, and in that case you won't frigging care about all of those other cases. The best solution might be to do it the PrC way, which is to measure the power of a race from its ideal entry point. However, unlike for PrC's, most (all?) races are accessible from any (I think) class, so it'd be a nightmare. I just don't see what you get out of this that you wouldn't out of just listing the best races for each class.

ahenobarbi

2013-09-26, 02:09 AM

I don't think race has big enough effect to justify creating tiers for them. Not even when you allow elves to dark chaos shuffle (because of the heroics + DCS combo).

CTrees

2013-09-26, 07:02 AM

(All of this assumes Pathfinder)

You may be able to come up with a tier list for races, but I'm not sure how useful that would be - for any given class, you're picking the best/most interesting options anyway. Worse, though, is compensating the lower teir races with better point buys (or anything else). Let's look at two examples, using the better point-buy compensation:

First, the orc. It's bad at any of the classes that need mental stats, and not particularly good at some other (like rogue). This would probably be a low tier race. However, if you're making a barbarian, you lose nothing you care terribly much about, and gain better stats? So you can smash stuff even better? Admittedly this helps a low tier class, which may be a good thing! Lurking in the archetypes list, though, is the Scarred Witch Doctor. A T1, full, prepared caster, whose casting stat is Constitution, that requires orc blood. A scarred witch doctor with boosted stats from the higher point buy could be *ugly,* but using thr logic of the old class tier system, we shouldn't boost Orcs up a tier just because of one semi-obscure option. How do we adjust this to not suddenly make them a default choice?

Second, the svirfneblin. The best array of defensive abilities of any race, but terrible stats. As such, they're an average to terrible choice for any class, really. This would put them at a low tier, if that's how they're getting ranked. Again, though, their weakness is in ability scores. If they get a better point buy for being low tier, this weakness disappears, turning them into complete monsters.

You could, concievably, do a tier system for races for each class. There are 19 classes, with a ridiculous number of archetypes (*some* of which change the calculations massively), and the optimization guides already cover this, so...

I just don't see how this can reasonably be accomplished.

Studoku

2013-09-26, 07:41 AM

3.5 of course is much wider; Humans, Gray Elves, Warforged, Elans and the lesser planetouched would probably be on top,
Even then, the differences are extremely minor. A half-elf wizard is still a wizard.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-26, 08:48 AM

This sounds like an excellent time for a spreadsheet. Races down the side, classes across the top, tiers in the boxes.

eggynack

2013-09-26, 08:51 AM

This sounds like an excellent time for a spreadsheet. Races down the side, classes across the top, tiers in the boxes.
Ooh, that sounds nifty. We could even extrapolate out tier lists of various kinds by looking at data arrangement and stuff.

Gorfnod

2013-09-26, 08:51 AM

Psyren

2013-09-26, 08:55 AM

But then you also have to take in to account, well this race is only this tier with this archetype and then it sucks otherwise and other such nonsense. I think race rankings are better left where they have always been, in class handbooks.

Well that's where a spreadsheet/matrix would actually work, and it might be a good way to say "hey, I want to play an Orc, what are good options for that race" and you scroll down the list and ooh, this class and that class and this archetype of that other class are all blue etc.

I could imagine a group saying something like "All gnome party!" or "All Warforged!" and being able to use something like this to make sure all the roles are covered with optimal or mostly optimal choices.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-26, 08:55 AM

Last night when I started this thread, I was quite sleep deprived, and a tier list sounded like a good idea at the time. But after going through the responses this morning, I'm beginning to see that such a task would either be stupidly difficult/time consuming or not much use at all.

That being said, I am still curious about the relative power of the various races. What does it generally take to equal the power of that human bonus feat? Are there any suggestions for creating racial diversity (outside of banning humans or saying "please play a different race")? Again, mechanically, what does it take to get you to play a race?

EDIT: And now people are suggesting spread sheets that sound very nifty. Maybe something good can come of my idea after all!

Fax Celestis

2013-09-26, 08:56 AM

But then you also have to take in to account, well this race is only this tier with this archetype and then it sucks otherwise and other such nonsense. I think race rankings are better left where they have always been, in class handbooks.

Solvable by expanding the definitions of "class" on the top border. Like so!

{table=head] | Wizard | Spontaneous Divinations Wizard | Abrupt Jaunt Wizard
Half Elf | D | D | D
Halfling | C | C | C
Half-Orc | F | F | F
Human | B | B | B[/table]

Psyren

2013-09-26, 08:59 AM

Yeah as long as you consider every archetype or every ACF to be a different class then you're good to go really.

Though as there are far, far more classes and archetypes than LA 0 races I would put races across the top. The race names are shorter too.

eggynack

2013-09-26, 08:59 AM

But then you also have to take in to account, well this race is only this tier with this archetype and then it sucks otherwise and other such nonsense. I think race rankings are better left where they have always been, in class handbooks.
I dunno if that's necessarily as true for 3.5 as it is for PF, though it feels like you could just organize the PF one by archetype rather than class to some extent. In 3.5, usually it's just that the race is bad, but it's good if you take the substitution levels. It feels like that too could be incorporated into the list.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-26, 09:03 AM

Again, mechanically, what does it take to get you to play a race?

EDIT: And now people are suggesting spread sheets that sound very nifty. Maybe something good can come of my idea after all!

Interesting, unique, life-time relevant and/or scaling abilities. Note how the 'popular' races hit all these criteria. Strongheart Halflings and Humans are the only ways to get any bonus feat you want at first level. Dusklings and Jaebrin are by and large terrible but one of the few ways to get fey HD and natural attacks at low levels. Azurin's bonus essentia and dwarf's +2 vs. spells and armor mobility will always be relevant. Raptorans get flight. Half-Giants and Goliaths get powerful build, something that will remain relevant for their entire lifetime.

Conversely, after a few levels, half-elves' skill bonuses basically become irrelevant. Gnome SLAs become useless and can be replicated with a bard dip.

Gorfnod

2013-09-26, 09:50 AM

I guess what I was really getting at was it not so much a Tier list as it is "Here are the good race options for this class/archetype and everything else is meh, oh yea and this just sucks." In PF there are around 35-40 core/featured/uncommon races and 22 core/base/alteranate classes with anywhere from 3 to 15 archetypes each. I guess you could easily scan through the existing class guides, changing the usual color coding to Tiers, and throw it in a spreadsheet but it would be huge and I don't think really all that helpful.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-26, 10:10 AM

EDIT: And now people are suggesting spread sheets that sound very nifty. Maybe something good can come of my idea after all!

Here is a start (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dEROQ2Z2SXM0YmhuRXFkUnUyTFFkN 0E&usp=sharing). I'll probably do more on it as I get time over the course of the day.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-26, 10:11 AM

Including every class and archetype in one class would lead to an insanely massive table. What about something like this for every class?

Barbarian
{table=head] | Barbarian | Armored Hulk | Breaker | Brutal Pugilist | Drunken Brute | Elemental Kin | Feral Gnasher | Hateful Rager | Hurler | Invulnerable Rager | Mad Dog | Mounted Fury | Savage Barbarian | Scarred Rager | Sea Reaver | Superstitious | Titan Mauler | Totem Rager | True Primitive | Urban Barbarian | Wild Rager
Aasimar | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Android | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Catfolk | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Changeling | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Dhampir | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Drow | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Duergar | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Dwarf | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Elf | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Fetchling | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ghoran | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Gillmen | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Goblin | | | | | | | | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Goblin, Monkey | | | | | | | | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Grippli | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Half Elf | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Half Orc | | | | | | | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Halfling | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hobgoblin | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Human | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ifrit | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Kitsune | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Kobold | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Lashunta | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Merfolk | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Nagaji | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Orc | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Oread | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Ratfolk | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Samsaran | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Strix | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Suli | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Svirfneblin | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Sylph | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Tengu | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Tiefling | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Undine | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Vanara | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Vishkanya | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Wayang | | | | | | | X | X | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |[/table]

And I was thinking of a rating system along the lines of the following:
I: Excels in the intended role of the class. One of the best options.
II: Neither excels nor fails in the intended role of the class. An average choice.
III: Struggles in the intended role of the class. A poor choice.
X: Cannot enter the class. Used for racial archetypes.

As a side note, this would have to be a rating system based solely on relative power within the class/archetype. Ratings are based on "given class X, race Y has rating Z" not "given race Y, play a wizard."

Yogibear41

2013-09-26, 10:16 AM

Something that maybe worth considering in this tier list is how long a race lives, sure it might not come up in the majority of campaigns but in campaigns that have long reaching time lines hundreds of years and all that, its gonna be pretty hard to play a human cuz you will die, he he (barring magic and all that fun stuff)

Fax Celestis

2013-09-26, 10:20 AM

Andvare

2013-09-26, 10:36 AM

For Pathfinder, my tiers:

Tier 1. Versatility and power. Can do all classes well, and is among the best choices for all classes.
Humans.

Tier 2. Versatility. Can do all classes well, and is among the best choice for some classes, but not all.
Half-Elf, Half-Orc.

Tier 3. Power. Is a top choice in some classes, but not useful for all, or have a speciality that can be very useful.
Elf, Strix, Halfling, Aasimar, Dwarf, Tengu, Tiefling, Samsarans.
To be honest, most races belongs here.

Tier 4. Meh. Is not the top in any classes, and does not have any other special abilities that otherwise justify the race, but also does outright suck in all classes.
Gnome? Possibly Dhampir.

Tier 5. Horrible. This is a poor choice for all classes.
Kobold.

This is not an exhausting list, there are many races missing, but it is a start.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-26, 11:16 AM

I've updated the original post to reflect the new direction of the thread. Anybody that wants to help out with this massive undertaking would be given a high five and my eternal gratitude.

For Pathfinder, my tiers:

Tier 1. Versatility and power. Can do all classes well, and is among the best choices for all classes.
Humans.

Tier 2. Versatility. Can do all classes well, and is among the best choice for some classes, but not all.
Half-Elf, Half-Orc.

Tier 3. Power. Is a top choice in some classes, but not useful for all, or have a speciality that can be very useful.
Elf, Strix, Halfling, Aasimar, Dwarf, Tengu, Tiefling, Samsarans.
To be honest, most races belongs here.

Tier 4. Meh. Is not the top in any classes, and does not have any other special abilities that otherwise justify the race, but also does outright suck in all classes.
Gnome? Possibly Dhampir.

Tier 5. Horrible. This is a poor choice for all classes.
Kobold.

This is not an exhausting list, there are many races missing, but it is a start.

The new approach to class/race ratings could also allow us to potentially quantify the ratings. So many Great ratings earns you tier X, too many Poor ratings can drop you down a tier, etc. We'll see if I still have the energy/interest after this, though.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-26, 11:19 AM

eggynack

2013-09-26, 11:19 AM

And I was thinking of a rating system along the lines of the following:
I: Excels in the intended role of the class. One of the best options.
II: Neither excels nor fails in the intended role of the class. An average choice.
III: Struggles in the intended role of the class. A poor choice.
X: Cannot enter the class. Used for racial archetypes.

I think that this may need more delineation, especially at the top side of the list. That way you could have best, good, average, bad, terrible, and maybe a sixth option for impossible. The most important distinctions where race is concerned is the difference between a good race and a great race. I don't know if people care about the difference between bad and terrible races, however,

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-26, 11:31 AM

I think that this may need more delineation, especially at the top side of the list. That way you could have best, good, average, bad, terrible, and maybe a sixth option for impossible. The most important distinctions where race is concerned is the difference between a good race and a great race. I don't know if people care about the difference between bad and terrible races, however,

What about:
Great: Excels in the intended role of the class. One of the best options.
Good: Capable of performing well in the intended role of the class. A solid choice.
Average: Neither excels nor fails in the intended role of the class. An average choice.
Poor: Struggles in the intended role of the class. Avoid these unless you really, really like the flavor.
Terrible: Fails to succeed in the intended role of the class. An awful choice.

Khosan

2013-09-26, 11:39 AM

Updated sheet is updated. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dEROQ2Z2SXM0YmhuRXFkUnUyTFFkN 0E&usp=sharing) The formatting is done for the barbarian; other classes should be as simple as copying the barbarian tab to a new tab and then replacing the ACFs (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908) across the top.

Dunno if this is something you should consider or not, but for Kobolds maybe add a Dragonwrought subheading? It'd make more sense as a modifier than a race, but it's probably still worth mentioning.

3WhiteFox3

2013-09-26, 11:39 AM

I don't know if people care about the difference between bad and terrible races, however,

I do. In most guides (which this essentially is) poor just means that it's generally not worth taking, if you have a specific build or concept, you know that taking it is not very good, but it won't completely ruin you. A terrible choice is going to be extremely difficult to optimize. Basically, it's degrees for those who might want to take a poor option but not a terrible one.

eggynack

2013-09-26, 11:50 AM

What about:
Great: Excels in the intended role of the class. One of the best options.
Good: Capable of performing well in the intended role of the class. A solid choice.
Average: Neither excels nor fails in the intended role of the class. An average choice.
Poor: Struggles in the intended role of the class. Avoid these unless you really, really like the flavor.
Terrible: Fails to succeed in the intended role of the class. An awful choice.
Yeah, that's about what I was figuring. Standard handbook whatevering.

I do. In most guides (which this essentially is) poor just means that it's generally not worth taking, if you have a specific build or concept, you know that taking it is not very good, but it won't completely ruin you. A terrible choice is going to be extremely difficult to optimize. Basically, it's degrees for those who might want to take a poor option but not a terrible one.
Well, if we're talking about "terrible" in the context of races you might want to take but probably shouldn't, you might be right. However, if we're talking about "terrible" in the context of all races in existence, you're usually just going to avoid anything from that section, and not care how it's specifically labelled. Like, I don't particularly care if orcs or half-orcs are better on a wizard, because it's all in the same vague and crappy direction. It's like a fighter wondering if he'd be better off taking spell penetration or combat casting. If he's not pulling spells from some source, it just doesn't matter.

Andvare

2013-09-26, 12:47 PM

Are there any class where humans are not Great?

What to do with the Strix? It doesn't have that great attributes, but a constant 60ft fly speed from level 1 is fantastic for most classes.

And what about races that fits only parts of a class, like the elf and alchemists, where it is fantastic for the mad bomber, but less so for the mr. Hyde variety.

A start, most which should be universally accepted.

Elf. Great for Wizard. Bonus to int and spell penetration.
Elf. Great for Witch. See Wizard
Elf. Terrible for Monk.
Half-Elf. Great for Summoners.
Half-Elf. Great for Oracles, the Paragon Surge is that good.

eggynack

2013-09-26, 02:32 PM

Are there any class where humans are not Great?
They seem even better in PF than they do in 3.5, but to some extent this has to be a relative measurement. Like, for some classes that don't have any hyper-specialized races, humans are great. However, there may be some instances where there are higher power options. I don't know if there are many, or even any, instances with a race so powerful that it justifies lowering the level of humans. It's certainly a possibility though.

Psyren

2013-09-26, 02:47 PM

I don't think Elves are terrible for monks. They're medium and have a bonus to a relevant stat (Dex.) The Con penalty isn't fun but monks get immunity to a lot of that stuff anyway (poisons, diseases) as well as SR to help with the rest (curses, negative levels), plus strong fort saves.

gr8artist

2013-09-26, 02:54 PM

I would advise keeping things simple. Don't worry about specific archetypes; make them footnotes for the race. For example, the Orc would have "Poor *" in the Witch column, because it's a terrible idea. But when you looked up the *, you'd find this note: "Scarred Witch Doctor archetype ~ Average" which would tell you that a certain combination has a different value than the norm. Or Aasimar in the Paladin column might have a * telling you that certain Aasimar types get the ability score mods you'd actually want for such a thing.
And I think just having three ratings (Good, Average, Poor) is enough, though maybe a "Perfect" for those combinations that just seem made in heaven.

Doc_Maynot

2013-09-26, 03:46 PM

No love for the Dvati?

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-27, 01:15 AM

Are there any class where humans are not Great?

This is a good question. Is there any class/archetype where human would rate lower than Good?

And what about races that fits only parts of a class, like the elf and alchemists, where it is fantastic for the mad bomber, but less so for the mr. Hyde variety.

I think I may treat that like an archetype in the case of the alchemist. Are there any other classes that have such distinct choices of focus?

A start, most which should be universally accepted.

Elf. Great for Wizard. Bonus to int and spell penetration.
Elf. Great for Witch. See Wizard
Elf. Terrible for Monk.
Half-Elf. Great for Summoners.
Half-Elf. Great for Oracles, the Paragon Surge is that good.

Sweet, thanks!

I would advise keeping things simple. Don't worry about specific archetypes; make them footnotes for the race. For example, the Orc would have "Poor *" in the Witch column, because it's a terrible idea. But when you looked up the *, you'd find this note: "Scarred Witch Doctor archetype ~ Average" which would tell you that a certain combination has a different value than the norm. Or Aasimar in the Paladin column might have a * telling you that certain Aasimar types get the ability score mods you'd actually want for such a thing.
And I think just having three ratings (Good, Average, Poor) is enough, though maybe a "Perfect" for those combinations that just seem made in heaven.

I think there are going to be a lot of foot notes if we go this route. I think I'm just gonna stick with the current tables.

I do typically think that simpler is better, which is why I haven't updated the rating system yet. Maybe we should get a vote going?

TiaC

2013-09-27, 01:25 AM

Human and Half-elf are great for Sorcerer

eggynack

2013-09-27, 01:37 AM

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-27, 01:44 AM

I can't tell the extent to which 3.5 stuff is factored into this, due to the ever murky realm of 3.P. If the answer is bunches, then half-orc is a race that might just qualify as great for druids, owing entirely to the relevant substitution levels from Races of Destiny.

At this point we have separated the two entirely. Fax Celestis seems to be handling the 3.5 end whilst I manage the PF end of things.

eggynack

2013-09-27, 01:53 AM

At this point we have separated the two entirely. Fax Celestis seems to be handling the 3.5 end whilst I manage the PF end of things.
Ah. That makes some sense, particularly given the difficulties I mentioned inherent in such a combined list. In any case, blue half-orc druids then, particularly of the desert variety (How do those get counted, anyways? Just separate races?) and also anthropomorphic bat, because those're probably the best druid race. Jermalaine are also good, though less than anthro bats.

Andvare

2013-09-27, 03:10 AM

This is a good question. Is there any class/archetype where human would rate lower than Good?

It would have to be a class that doesn't care about feats.
Can't say I can think of any.

Sweet, thanks!

Due to a minor SNAFU, I'm not doing anything at work right now, so I'll just do more. Stay tuned for an update.
(And mayhaps elves could be rated as Poor instead of Terrible for monks, but I'll still say they aren't suited for the class)

A couple of examples of in class discrepancies would be the elf and the orc for the alchemist.
The elf is Great for the mad bomber side of the alchemist, but Meh for the Mr. Hyde side. While the orc is Great, or at least Good, for the Mr. Hyde side (strength, ferocity, weapon proficiency), and downright Terrible for the mad bomber side (lack of anything that helps, and a penalty to important stats).

Tiefling Great for alchemist. Perfect stats for the mad bomber, and nice favoured class option for it too. Not as stellar for the Hyde side, but Oni Spawn is still a fabulous Mr. Hyde.
Tiefling Good or Great for gunslinger, depending on whether you use variant heritages or not.
Tiefling Great for wizard. Perfect attribute modifiers.

On the flip side of the human, are there any classes where the kobold isn't Terrible? If the game is played with encumbrance rules, they can't carry anything at all and certainly not armour, can't damage anything in melee, so rogue and other dex users are gone. Wizard/sorcerer perhaps? With a base speed of 30 and small, they could be not-terrible there, so red everywhere but for the squishies, and only Meh there, because a penalty to con, with only a bonus to dex, is not that great for anyone.

I'll be back with more later.

Emperor Tippy

2013-09-27, 03:35 AM

Are there any class where humans are not Great?
Wizard.
Humans are good for wizards but not even close to great.

A start, most which should be universally accepted.

Elf. Great for Wizard. Bonus to int and spell penetration.
Elf. Great for Witch. See Wizard
Elf. Terrible for Monk.
Um elves can make some of the best monks in the entire game. Far better than humans actually (especially with the right racial variants).

Human and Half-elf are great for Sorcerer

Again, not really.

No Charisma boost and nothing else but a single feat. No great racial sub levels either.

Humans are a good race for Sorcerers, like they are for pretty much every other class in the game but they aren't great for Sorcerers.

---
This is 3.5, not pathfinder.

Naomi Li

2013-09-27, 03:51 AM

Ah, Tippy? This IS the Pathfinder version, not the 3.5 version.

avr

2013-09-27, 04:57 AM

This is a good question. Is there any class/archetype where human would rate lower than Good?
If you're looking at much higher than level 1, possibly fighter. By 4th level a fighter may barely notice the human bonus feat and most archetypes are hardly skill monkeys. They do get a handy stat bonus but so do many others in PF. I'd call that Average.

So what class did you want to start discussion or voting around in particular? We can just fill in with our opinions on whatever catches an individual posters' eye, but that seems inefficient.

avr

2013-09-27, 05:23 AM

Andvare

2013-09-27, 06:31 AM

Synthesist Summoner works for kobolds. They don't bring anything much to it (a few feat options, darkvision) but the ability to say "what physical stats?" makes it perfect for them. Poor or Average. If I have to choose one, Average.

Kobolds get their own bard archetype which is all about diplomancy. Still only Poor, but not actually Terrible IMO.

Due to the CON penalty and d6 HD and lack of any useful bonuses, I wouldn't rate Kobold Wizards or Sorcerers any higher than Poor and maybe Terrible. Probably Terrible.

The reason I said meh, was that they have a 30ft move, and are small. That is actually quite useful for a non-meele'er. Higher AC and all that. Too bad they don't have the strength to carry anything, and I do mean anything.
Good point with the synthesist.

Deca4531

2013-09-27, 08:00 AM

Fax Celestis

2013-09-27, 08:40 AM

Humans are a good race for Sorcerers, like they are for pretty much every other class in the game but they aren't great for Sorcerers.

Yeah, but they get access to Sherem-Lar and Sherezem-Lar Sorcery.

WebTiefling

2013-09-27, 08:48 AM

I'm having issues with the link.

Fax Celestis's 3.5 Class/Race Tier List points to

http://%22https//docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dEROQ2Z2SXM0YmhuRXFkUnUyTFFkN 0E&usp=sharing%22

It should point to

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dEROQ2Z2SXM0YmhuRXFkUnUyTFFkN 0E#gid=0

or

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7dEROQ2Z2SXM0YmhuRXFkUnUyTFFkN 0E&usp=sharing

Deca4531

2013-09-27, 08:48 AM

you could also do a point type system, say a race gets X points for 2 stat points gained and looses points for negitive stats. Y points for any SLA or SNA.

Red Fel

2013-09-27, 08:58 AM

I havent had time to read through all the posts but i scanned enough to get an idea of whats going on. while i think a Race-To-Class guide might be fun it is only margenly helpfull in most cases.

what if insted of worring about classes and what race is best what about what race gives you the most benofits compared to the drawback. something like

Race A
stat gain total +6 (str, con, dex)
stat loss total -2 (int)
SNA 1
weaknesses 2 (light blindness, 20ft movement speed.)

you could also do a point type system, say a race gets X points for 2 stat points gained and looses points for negitive stats. Y points for any SLA or SNA.

Seconding something like this. Really, while this race/class table idea sounds awesome - and it really does, it makes things crazy convenient - it also sounds like a heck of a lot of work. And as earlier posters have noted, subtle nuances, archetypes and ACFs can mean the difference between a positive rating and a negative one.

Perhaps a different system might be appropriate, using more of a list (like many handbooks do) than a table. I figure it could use the model that many handbooks do, listing an entry then explaining it somewhat. Expanding on Deca's idea, I would propose something like this:

RACE NAME
- ABILITY SCORES: +A, -B (Rating:)
- SLAs/PLAs: (if any) (Rating:)
- OTHER SPECIALS: (vision, flight, etc.) (Rating:)
- LEVEL ADJUSTMENT: (Rating:)
- OPTIMAL CLASSES: (List 3-5) (Rating:)
- SUBOPTIMAL CLASSES: (List 3-5) (Rating:)
- OVERALL RATING: (Rating:)

Now, how it works.

- Ability Scores: This section lists penalties and bonuses to ability scores. Obviously, some ability scores are more useful than others (Int versus Cha, for example). Based on which scores are increased, and by how much, versus which are decreased, and how much, we can give this race a rating on its abilities. (For example, a Snow Elf gets +2 Dex, -2 Cha. As Cha is generally a dump stat, but Dex is generally good for most classes, this gets a good rating.)
- SLAs/PLAs: This simply observes the existence (or lack thereof) of SLAs/PLAs. Rating goes up if they are useful, usable with frequency, or scale with CL. Rating goes down if they are useless, usable infrequently, non-scaling, or nonexistent. This may get combined with the next section.
- Other Specials: This is the catch-all category. Does the race fly? Rating goes up. Have a swim speed? Goes up. Darkvision? Up. Does it have an iron vulnerability? Rating goes down. Can't breathe out of water without magic items? Down. Requires corrective lenses to function on the surface? Down. And so on.
- Level Adjustment: This is an easy one. If the race has a +0 LA, it gets the highest rating. As LA goes up, rating goes down. Cheaper is better.
- Optimal Classes: Here is where what the other posters have been doing comes into play. Based on ability scores, specials, and powers, what classes (or types of classes) would work well for this race? For instance, you could say that a race with Wis and Cha could take Cleric and Paladin. Or you could say that a race with high Str, Dex and Con could take "fighter-type classes," which might include Fighters, Martial Adepts, and so on. You may then rate this race based on just how many classes/archetypes it can take effectively, and how powerful/versatile those classes/archetypes are.
- Suboptimal Classes: Here is where you list what the race really, really should not be. Obviously, you don't have to list any classes for which they can't qualify. (An Orc's suboptimal class list need not include the elves-only Eternal Blade.) But any class or class-group which would either be horribly ruined, or at least somewhat useless, because of this race would go here. Rate this as the inverse of Optimal Classes - if this list excludes powerful/versatile classes, effectively limiting the race to weak/narrow classes, it gets a low rating. If there are few suboptimal classes, or the only ones are weak/narrow, it gets a high rating.
- Overall Rating: Again, self-explanatory. Tally the scores. Within a certain range, the race is either Poor, Fair, Good, Great, or Excellent, or whichever words you like. This overall rating will now reflect the overall abilities of the race, including its class combinations.

Let's take the archetypical example, the Human.
HUMAN (PHB, SRD)
- Ability Scores: No adjustment. (Rating: 3/5; no benefits, no losses)
- SLAs/PLAs: None. (Rating: 1/5)
- Other Specials: Bonus feat at level 1, 4 extra skill points at level 1, 1 extra skill point at every level thereafter. (Rating: 4/5; highly versatile)
- Level Adjustment: +0 LA. (Rating: 5/5)
- Optimal Classes: Any. (Rating: 5/5)
- Suboptimal Classes: None. (Rating: 5/5)
- Overall Rating: GREAT (23/25)

It's a bit more work than a table in some ways, but in others it's very conveniently descriptive.

Deca4531

2013-09-27, 09:15 AM

- Optimal Classes: Here is where what the other posters have been doing comes into play. Based on ability scores, specials, and powers, what classes (or types of classes) would work well for this race? For instance, you could say that a race with Wis and Cha could take Cleric and Paladin. Or you could say that a race with high Str, Dex and Con could take "fighter-type classes," which might include Fighters, Martial Adepts, and so on. You may then rate this race based on just how many classes/archetypes it can take effectively, and how powerful/versatile those classes/archetypes are.

for this i would say only list the best possible classes, limited to 3 to 5 classes, then say something like (general spell caster classes) since the amount of possible combination it immense. that way if im looking at playing an Elf i can see, "oh, the best classes for these are X, Y and Z huh, but as long as im a (caster, rogue?) type class i should do fine."

Red Fel

2013-09-27, 09:39 AM

for this i would say only list the best possible classes, limited to 3 to 5 classes, then say something like (general spell caster classes) since the amount of possible combination it immense. that way if im looking at playing an Elf i can see, "oh, the best classes for these are X, Y and Z huh, but as long as im a (caster, rogue?) type class i should do fine."

RACE NAME
- ABILITY SCORES: +A, -B (Rating:)
- SLAs/PLAs: (if any) (Rating:)
- OTHER SPECIALS: (vision, flight, etc.) (Rating:)
- LEVEL ADJUSTMENT: (Rating:)
- OPTIMAL CLASSES: (List 3-5) (Rating:)
- SUBOPTIMAL CLASSES: (List 3-5) (Rating:)
- OVERALL RATING: (Rating:)

*SNIP*

- Optimal Classes: Here is where what the other posters have been doing comes into play. Based on ability scores, specials, and powers, what classes (or types of classes) would work well for this race? For instance, you could say that a race with Wis and Cha could take Cleric and Paladin. Or you could say that a race with high Str, Dex and Con could take "fighter-type classes," which might include Fighters, Martial Adepts, and so on. You may then rate this race based on just how many classes/archetypes it can take effectively, and how powerful/versatile those classes/archetypes are.

(Emphases added.)

I agree, although "best" is admittedly a nuanced issue.

Deca4531

2013-09-27, 09:48 AM

(Emphases added.)

I agree, although "best" is admittedly a nuanced issue.

yeah, but i know a lot "(insert class) handbook!" tend to list one or 2 races for best results. after all no one expect 100% perfection, but if i really like playing a Dwarf because i can do a great accent and i wanna look up what Dwarvs have and what they are (good at, if not best) class wies just for an idea it would be nice.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-27, 10:35 AM

(Rating Stuff)

High five and thank you!

If you're looking at much higher than level 1, possibly fighter. By 4th level a fighter may barely notice the human bonus feat and most archetypes are hardly skill monkeys. They do get a handy stat bonus but so do many others in PF. I'd call that Average.

So what class did you want to start discussion or voting around in particular? We can just fill in with our opinions on whatever catches an individual posters' eye, but that seems inefficient.

I never thought about the fighter. As far as what classes to start with, in my ideal world, people would fill out an entire table or a good portion of one and I'd copy and paste it into the OP. Maybe I should just say, "We're working on the Barbarian now!" and keep it there until we have a satisfactory portion of the table filled out.

Synthesist Summoner works for kobolds. They don't bring anything much to it (a few feat options, darkvision) but the ability to say "what physical stats?" makes it perfect for them. Poor or Average. If I have to choose one, Average.

Kobolds get their own bard archetype which is all about diplomancy. Still only Poor, but not actually Terrible IMO.

Due to the CON penalty and d6 HD and lack of any useful bonuses, I wouldn't rate Kobold Wizards or Sorcerers any higher than Poor and maybe Terrible. Probably Terrible.

Oh, how the mighty have fallen.

I'm having issues with the link.

I was having trouble too and was too lazy to figure it out last night. Thanks.

Seconding something like this. Really, while this race/class table idea sounds awesome - and it really does, it makes things crazy convenient - it also sounds like a heck of a lot of work. And as earlier posters have noted, subtle nuances, archetypes and ACFs can mean the difference between a positive rating and a negative one.

Perhaps a different system might be appropriate, using more of a list (like many handbooks do) than a table. I figure it could use the model that many handbooks do, listing an entry then explaining it somewhat. Expanding on Deca's idea, I would propose something like this:

RACE NAME
- ABILITY SCORES: +A, -B (Rating:)
- SLAs/PLAs: (if any) (Rating:)
- OTHER SPECIALS: (vision, flight, etc.) (Rating:)
- LEVEL ADJUSTMENT: (Rating:)
- OPTIMAL CLASSES: (List 3-5) (Rating:)
- SUBOPTIMAL CLASSES: (List 3-5) (Rating:)
- OVERALL RATING: (Rating:)

-snip-

It's a bit more work than a table in some ways, but in others it's very conveniently descriptive.

I might put something like this into the guide as its own section. That was kind of what I originally had in mind, but the community wanted more of what we are going with now, and it's easier to crowdsource what more people are interested in. If you want to plug away at this, that would be excellent!

Andvare

2013-09-27, 11:34 AM

I think I may treat that like an archetype in the case of the alchemist. Are there any other classes that have such distinct choices of focus?

I completely forgot this question.
Yeah, there is the Magus, which is more or less a choice of going strength or dex. But it is not as pronounced with the Magus as it is with the Alchemist, because the Dex Magus still kill people with melee attacks, just like the Strength Magus does.

Of course there's also the various archetypes that screw with that, like the Scarred Witch Doctor, which only requires con. But since it is only open to two races, that archetype shouldn't be a bother. Infact, I'd say we forget archetypes for the time being, then add them when the main classes are done.

Edit: BTW, I am using the various guides for a baseline for the races, and applying some of my own judgement to whether or not it makes sense (not all guides are equally good)
ANd, BTW, there is another races guide (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1XvXoXHlLBk6bdi-8es4r-FDLiaEGnM9YTW6hMl5kuQo) for Pathfinder. It is not good, the ratings are not very well placed, not that I mean that they are all misplaced, but there are many headscratchers in there. A lot of work went into it though.
An example of the headscratchers:
"Summoner: Half-elves have a Summoner archetype of their own, called the WIld Caller. This archetype trades summon monster spells and spell-like abilities for the equivalent summon nature’s ally spells, which seems a little bit weak at first, but the WIld Caller’s eidolon also gains bonus evolution points, so it all balances out very well. However, as I will explain below, the First Worlder archetype actually does almost the same thing, but does it better."
Except the First Worlder is a terrible archetype, and the Wild Caller is a very strong archetype. ANd they certainly does not do the same thing, because the First Worlder's eidolon is just weaker than a regular eidolon.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-27, 12:01 PM

I completely forgot this question.
Yeah, there is the Magus, which is more or less a choice of going strength or dex. But it is not as pronounced with the Magus as it is with the Alchemist, because the Dex Magus still kill people with melee attacks, just like the Strength Magus does.

Alchemist will probably be the only one I break down like that then.

I'd say we forget archetypes for the time being, then add them when the main classes are done.

I'd be fine with that. But if an archetype rating comes to mind, shout it out.

Edit: BTW, I am using the various guides for a baseline for the races, and applying some of my own judgement to whether or not it makes sense (not all guides are equally good)
ANd, BTW, there is another races guide (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1XvXoXHlLBk6bdi-8es4r-FDLiaEGnM9YTW6hMl5kuQo) for Pathfinder. It is not good, the ratings are not very well placed, not that I mean that they are all misplaced, but there are many headscratchers in there. A lot of work went into it though.

I am doing the same thing. That race guide does look intriguing, but if you say the quality is low, I'll probably only use it as a last resort.

Andvare

2013-09-27, 12:21 PM

I am doing the same thing. That race guide does look intriguing, but if you say the quality is low, I'll probably only use it as a last resort.

It is a mixture of sensible stuff, and outright stupidity.
For example, the Half-Elf Sorcerer was rated blue because of Paragon Surge. Perfectly sensible. Then the Human Sorcerer was rated Green. Emm, what? They can get Paragon Surge as well?
It continues to state that half-breeds qualify for each of their parents racial archetypes and feats, which isn't true (it should be though).
And it rates archetypes like Blood God Disciple as green, which I just cannot understand.
It rates the Drow feat Spider Summoner as blue :smalleek:, and the Drow Nobility feat line as orange. :smallconfused:
Or these two lines from the Dwarf Favoured Class Options:
"Witch: If your Familiar is getting into battle, you’re doing it wrong. This isn’t worth it.

Wizard: This probably isn’t terribly useful for you, since crafting is already a confusing system, and if your’re playing in Pathfinder Society you can’t use it anyway."
I might even agree on the ratings, but the reasoning is just... :smallsigh:

And so on.
There are some sense here and there, but boy.

avr

2013-09-27, 09:41 PM

Maybe I should just say, "We're working on the Barbarian now!" and keep it there until we have a satisfactory portion of the table filled out.
If you're going to stick with the table rather than go with Red Fel/Deci's idea, I think you'd have to do something like this if it was to ever be finished.

avr

2013-09-27, 09:48 PM

The reason I said meh, was that they have a 30ft move, and are small. That is actually quite useful for a non-meele'er. Higher AC and all that. Too bad they don't have the strength to carry anything, and I do mean anything.
Point; that should make kobold wizards, sorcs and non-synth summoners Poor (IMO). The disadvantage of -2 CON still stands, after all.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-28, 12:42 AM

If you're going to stick with the table rather than go with Red Fel/Deci's idea, I think you'd have to do something like this if it was to ever be finished.

Andvare had the sense to suggest that we do the main classes first and once we have that as a solid baseline we move on to archetypes. I think that is the best course of action as most people are more concerned about the class in general than specific archetypes. So let's start at the top and work our way down. Ratings for races in the Barbarian class: Go!

Andvare

2013-09-28, 02:57 AM

Andvare had the sense to suggest that we do the main classes first and once we have that as a solid baseline we move on to archetypes. I think that is the best course of action as most people are more concerned about the class in general than specific archetypes. So let's start at the top and work our way down. Ratings for races in the Barbarian class: Go!

Okay.

Humans are just heads and shoulders above all the other core races. A bonus to strength, an extra feat for a feat-starved class, and one of the best favoured class options there is, plus one of their alternate racial traits fits the barbarian very well indeed (Heart of the Fields). Very much in the blue. Great.
Strix. Great. And not only because of that 60ft fly speed. It is amazing, and more so for a class that loves to charge. More dex also doesn't hurt, and a penalty to charisma might hurt an intimidating barbarian, but if you want to go that way, go elsewhere (apparently death from above isn't scary). Perception bonus, darkvision, lowlife vision, extra rage rounds and bonus against humans are all just frosting on the yummy cake that is the Strix.
Those two set the bar pretty high, but the Suli just sneaks over. Their stat mods are worse than humans, but they do get an energy attack and resistance, both very useful at lower levels. Great.
Duegar is somewhat difficult. The guides usually rates them as great, but that is mostly due to their SLAs, which are very good, but both something that should be easily available in a group (though invisibility not from 1st level). Their stat mods are decent, but they are slow, their immunities are great, and they can get rid of that, for a barbarian, awful light sensitivity with an alternate racial feature. Probably Great, but it could be open to discussion (as is everything of course).

Other cores:
Dwarf. Good. Good stats, great saving throw bonuses, can be better than the human-superstition one. Darvision also helps, but they are slow, something of a bummer with a charge happy class.
Half-Orc. Good. Good stats, every class likes those floating bonuses. Ferocity is decent, and can be switched out with good substitutes. Favoured class option is good. They can also gain access to Destroyer’s Blessing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/destroyer-s-blessing-combat), which can be downright brutal, though it does have a sizeable drawback.
Half-Elf. Good, though strictly worse than both dwarves and half-orcs, they still do a decent job in the class. Floating bonus is nice. The ability to get Eldritch Heritage cheap is very nice, and undervalued IMHO. Eldritch Heritage is one of the strongest and most versatile feats out there, for example the Serpentine bloodline for a fang attack (+poison, DC is con based!) or Orc for extra strength. Their favoured class option sucks.
Elf. Poor, bordering on terrible Just Terrible. Con penalty really hurts. Con is, along with strength, a primary stat of the barbarian. A bonus to dex, nice immunities and a bonus to perception, but very little that boost the class itself. Not a fan.
Halfling and Gnome. Both Terrible. Small and weak. The gnome has that bonus to con, and the halfling has that bonus to saves. The only reason one should ever choose these, apart from fluff, would be to go mounted, and have a medium mount. Small size and a penalty to strength means they hit like a wet paper towel, it'll probably hurt them more.

I'll be back later.

avr

2013-09-28, 05:55 AM

Andvare

2013-09-28, 07:04 AM

Mostly I agree with Andvare. I rate halflings as Poor though on the basis that they have some feat support e.g Risky Striker and a medium size mount is an option with some support for a Barbarian. I can't see any reason not to rate elves as Terrible however.

Tengus I think should be Good despite their stats due to their alternate racial traits, favoured class and feat options all being good for a Barb.

Catfolk are Good IMO for similar reasons.

Aasimar look Poor with the default heritage, Average with variant heritages.

Dhampir make Terrible barbarians.

Standard drow are Poor, and are spared being Terrible largely because of superior darkvision. Drow nobles, assuming that you take Jason Buhlmans advice that they were supposed to be LA +1, are Average, there's probably something useful to be done with those stats and SLAs.

Fetchlings are very Average barbarians.

Goblins are Poor due to size and low strength, but no worse because they have some useful feats and darkvision.

Hobgoblins OTOH are Good, with nice stats and the Demoralising Lash feat synergising with rage powers using intimidate.

You are right, elves should be terrible. Will fix.

I disagree with your evaluation of the Catfolk, as their specials are a bit meh. Claws isn't all that good, as you usually can't use it alongside a big two-handed weapon. Their pounce is not good, and only comes online at the same level as the regular barbarian pounce does. Tengu is borderline, because that penalty to con really hurts, but a bite attack is always useful, and they have the same barbarian favoured class option as the humans does, besides, featherfall is always nice to have.

Otherwise, I think we are in agreement, besides the halfling that is :smalltongue:, it is just too situational IMHO for them to get a poor rating.
I have taken the liberty, and colourcoded your ratings.

Edit: Now that I think about it, I'd probably rate Aasimar as meh, they have nothing that directly hurts their barbarian effectiveness. But they aren't great, that's for sure.

And the easiest race to rate for barbarian, the Kobold. Terribad. -4 to strength. Nuff said.

avr

2013-09-28, 07:24 AM

avr

2013-09-28, 07:47 AM

Thanks for the color coding, typing this on a mini iPad and extra formatting is possible but a pain.

You're probably right about the aasimar. I guess it's disappointment considering how useful aasimar can be for other concepts that made me rate it poor.

Catfolk can get sprinter or climber either of which works well for a barbarian. It isn't all about the claws. The barbarian rage power Greater Beast Totem is exclusive of other Totem powers - catfolk could get another totem and still get pounce. I still hold they're Good barbs.

Thinking about it the problem with the halfling bonuses I mentioned is that you couldn't get the feats for both by a useful level. Mounted combat and the halfling combat bonuses are feat sinks. OK, they're Terrible.

Andvare

2013-09-28, 09:06 AM

Orcs, hmm. The strength bonus is very nice, but the penalties are a pain for any barbarian who wants to do anything more than hitting things. Still Great, but only just.

Oreads look Good. The alternate racial traits and feats look fun, there's a strength bonus and darkvision. The slow speed stops them being Great.

Ratfolk are slow, weak and small and have no particularly useful traits for a barbarian. Terrible.

Sylphs have poor stats but some interesting options like the alternate racial trait breeze kissed, or the wings of air feat. Poor.

Tieflings can get a bite and other useful tricks. With a feat they can have useful stat mods. Maaaybe Good?

Undines are another Terrible race for barbarians.

That's all the featured races. If Andvare doesn't get to them first I'll look thru the uncommon races tomorrow.

I'll just keep colourcoding those for you then. It's no bother for me.

Tieflings are Goverage. Oni-spawn is definitely good, strength and wisdom bonus, plus alter self, nice. But the vanilla is less so.

Changelings. Meh. Constitution penalty, yuck. Extra melee damage is nice, a strength bonus would be better. Dunno why it is rated good here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12732426#post12732426), it is closer to poor TBH.

Gillmen. Terrible. You can lose that horrid waterdependency, but then you are just a human, without all the good things a human gets. The only place these would fit, would be in an amphibious campaign.

Grippli. Terrible. Small, weak. See gnome or halfling if you want to be a small mounted barbarian.

Kitsune. Poor. A strength penalty hurts. They do have a bite attack, and even though they get pounce at level 10, it does free up that rage power. Close to terrible.

Merfolk. Poor. 5ft land move is just too little, you need to be able to charge some distance as a barbarian, so you are forced to take the Strongtail alternate racial trait. The only reason they aren't terrible, is that trait. Great for an underwater campaign though, and would be quite good if they had a decent land speed, as they do have nice stat mods and special features.

Nagaji. Good. Strength and charisma bonus makes for a good intimidating barbarian, and some natural armour, bonus to perception and saves against mid-effects on top. No real drawbacks.

Samsarans. Terrible. They are fantastic casters, and they should stay with what they do best, magic, because they sure aren't good martials.

Svirfneblin. Terrible. Small, weak. High AC does not make a good barbarian. They get some fun stuff, but nothing that helps a barbarian much. That high spell resistance is downright dangerous.

Vanara. Poor. Nothing helps much, nothing hurts. Boring really.

Vishkanya. Meh. The poison could be fun, as it is based on con, and it is what makes it meh, and not poor.

Wayangs. Poor. Close to average, because they are small, yet have no strength penalty! Nothing much else that helps a mounted barbarian though.

That should be it for barbarians.

Edit: Looking over the evaluations, no, I'm not having a bad day. The good stuff among the uncommon races I covered already.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-28, 09:42 AM

Updated the list. I threw monkey goblins a Poor rating because they lose the penalty to strength, but they also lose the speed bonus and their bonuses don't really apply to barbarians.

Remaining races:
Android
Blue
Duergar, Psionic (same as regular Duergar? I haven't compared the two)
Elan
Ghoran
Half-Giant
Lashunta
Maenad
Ophiduan
Xeph

Andvare

2013-09-28, 09:56 AM

Updated the list. I threw monkey goblins a Poor rating because they lose the penalty to strength, but they also lose the speed bonus and their bonuses don't really apply to barbarians.

Remaining races:
Android
Blue
Changeling
Duergar, Psionic (same as regular Duergar? I haven't compared the two)
Elan
Ghoran
Half-Giant
Lashunta
Maenad
Ophiduan
Xeph

MOst of those are 3rd party, do you plan to include those as well?
If so, make sure to note it.
(I did rate changelings)

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-28, 10:18 AM

MOst of those are 3rd party, do you plan to include those as well?
If so, make sure to note it.
(I did rate changelings)

I was just going off this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races). And I did mention I would be including psionic races and classes at some point. Dreamscarred Press does good work.

avr

2013-09-28, 08:14 PM

Androids are immune to fatigue but also immune to morale bonuses. Like the basic bonuses of barbarian rage. There may be some odd rage powers which might be usuable, but I'm torn between Terrible and n/a for them.

Blues are another variety of goblin, less dex but psionic feats available. Call them Poor.

Dromites are small, weak and slow. Psionics and scent are nice but not enough to make them not Terrible IMO.

Psionic duergar have to be Great. Expansion as a PLA (ML = character level, min'm 3rd) is noticeably better than enlarge person, it lasts longer and eventually you get to be Huge.

Elans are probably Good. +2 to any one stat, resistance and resilience make them that way.

Ghoran are plenty weird. Probably Great as barbarians due to a CON and natural armour bonus and their many immunities from the plant type, but I can't help thinking they'd be even better suited to some other class.

Half giants have a strength bonus, powerful build and no LA in PF. Great.

Male lashunta make Good barbarians based on stats and the undeniable usefulness of telepathy, female lashunta are elf-Terrible.

Maenads have a bunch of racial traits aimed at making them barbarians. Yes, they're Great at it.

Ophiduans are Average. The bite attack they get is nice but lasts only a minute per day and probably needs a standard action to activate. The other bonuses are minor to a barbarian.

Xeph are on the high end of Poor. A strength penalty isn't good, but they do get their burst of speed, save bonuses and darkvision.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-28, 08:21 PM

I'd expect to see a lot of blue for humans here, but I almost preemtively want to declare them as green in most of those cases. They are rarely the best option for any class, often being a second or third best pick.

Sidenote: I'll also raise the question about what to do with Strix, and double-up with a question about Merfolk. What do? Merfolk normally only have a 5 ft. base speed, but that can be made to be 15 ft by decreasing their swim speed. I feel like playing either of these classes would get a DM to throw the book at you in most cases.

avr

2013-09-29, 08:24 AM

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-29, 10:05 AM

AS, shall we do bards next?

Absolutely! May as well carry on in order. As a side note, should we do alternate classes (Ninja, Samurai, Antipaladin) as their own classes or as an archetype of the base classes?

Andvare

2013-09-29, 10:37 AM

Absolutely! May as well carry on in order. As a side note, should we do alternate classes (Ninja, Samurai, Antipaladin) as their own classes or as an archetype of the base classes?

Archetype. They aren't that different with what makes them strong, to warrant separate class evaluations.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-29, 11:59 AM

Humans won't always be in the top bracket - there's a discussion above where I suggested they'd only reach average for fighters - but as barbarians the feat and the alternate traits heart of the fields/wilderness really are useful. The absolute best race for a barbarian might be a maenad IMO but we're not indicating that in this catalogue/thought experiment.So no psionic races?

Otherwise, psionic half-giant is going to rate highly for many many martial characters.

Strix are likely to be at least good when the class has no means of achieving flight short of using items. Merfolk aren't likely to rate better than poor unless the class has some way of greatly improving a merfolks' mobility out of the water e.g. Wild shape. Banning certain races is left as an exercise for the GM.

AS, shall we do bards next?The mobility is only an issue if they are trying to enter melee on a consistent basis. They can still 5-ft. step, eventually gain access to the spell fins to feet (Dru 3, Wiz 3, Witch 3), which gives them a very solid land speed, or use just use archery.

Bonuses to Charisma, Con, and Dex, that's everything you want as a sorcerer.

Anyway, looking at Bard: Core Races. In my estimation, I found that most of the core races could make a good bard. Unsurprisingly, the class with one of the most diverse skill sets has one of the most diverse set of good racial choices.

Human: Blue Bonus to Charisma or Dexterity or Strength, racial bonus for more spells known, and the bonus feat is very helpful for any bard trying to be an archer or go into the arcane archer prestige class.

Half-Elf Green/Blue Skill Focus just isn't very helpful for Bards/Half-Elves get paragon surge.

Half-Orc Blue? If you want to be a melee bard, Ferocity is certainly very helpful, and there is no penalty to charisma in this game.

Halfling: Blue Bonus to Charisma and Dex

Elf: Poor Really nothing here for you. Bonus to dex is nice, but nothing, but there are other things that get bonus to dex and cha, or a bonus to dex without a penalty to con.

Gnome: Blue Bonus to Con and Cha. Bonus to illusion DCs, and small size make them a good pick for a Bard.

If you want to push down one of the above to green, go ahead. I'd listen to the argument. When I was looking at this, I just felt that I couldn't pick a bad option or one that I wouldn't be completely happy about as a Bard. I don't think that's going to change unless we got into archetypes.

There will be a similar issue with alchemists I'd imagine.

Andvare

2013-09-29, 01:30 PM

Skill Focus is very helpful for the Half-Elf, precisely because they get paragon surge. It is one less feat towards Eldritch Heritage (and means they can get that at level 3, a familiar is very nice).

Half-Orc I'd rate as green, ferocity is nice, but it isn't that nice. They do have nice options, like Sacred Tattoo, so it is definitely close. Edit, now that I think about it, they are great melee bards, so, yeah, blue.
Gnome, bonus to con is very good, but it isn't dex, and I think that to be rated as blue, you need + to both cha and dex, or one of them and a really good special ability. The bard isn't a full caster, and needs something besides spells (and performance) for that reason, so they need either dex or strength to be effective in combat. The +1 DC to illusion spells is nice though.

You missed Dwarf, but they suck in this class. Terrible all the way. Medium, slow and a penalty to charisma? No thanks.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-29, 01:54 PM

Skill Focus is very helpful for the Half-Elf, precisely because they get paragon surge. It is one less feat towards Eldritch Heritage (and means they can get that at level 3, a familiar is very nice). Again, blue if you're getting Paragon Surge. Unfortunately, skill focus isn't as good of a feat for Half-Elves because someone decided that "Focused Study" was a not at all stupid idea for an alternate racial trait.

But yeah, I feel like the half-elf should have an asterisk next to them whenever we talk about spontaneous casters, pointing to a note that says, "Blue if you're the kind of jerk that uses Paragon Surge*

Half-Orc I'd rate as green, ferocity is nice, but it isn't that nice. They do have nice options, like Sacred Tattoo, so it is definitely close.

Gnome, bonus to con is very good, but it isn't dex, and I think that to be rated as blue, you need + to both cha and dex, or one of them and a really good special ability. The bard isn't a full caster, and needs something besides spells (and performance) for that reason, so they need either dex or strength to be effective in combat. The +1 DC to illusion spells is nice though. Don't know why, but whenever I think of bards, I always think of gnomes. I can definitely see why it would be green.

You missed Dwarf, but they suck in this class. Terrible all the way. Medium, slow and a penalty to charisma? No thanks.Knew I was forgetting something. I agree with your estimation.

Andvare

2013-09-29, 02:13 PM

Again, blue if you're getting Paragon Surge. Unfortunately, skill focus isn't as good of a feat for Half-Elves because someone decided that "Focused Study" was a not at all stupid idea for an alternate racial trait.

But yeah, I feel like the half-elf should have an asterisk next to them whenever we talk about spontaneous casters, pointing to a note that says, "Blue if you're the kind of jerk that uses Paragon Surge*

Don't know why, but whenever I think of bards, I always think of gnomes. I can definitely see why it would be green.

Knew I was forgetting something. I agree with your estimation.

"Oh, no. Someone might actually be nearly as useful as humans! Can't have that, give them the same benefit, but triple it."

Yeah, paragon-surge is the only reason to rate half-elves as blue instead of green. For divine casters and casters with a limited spell list, it is fantastic.
Also, I changed my mind on half-orcs.

Ninjaxenomorph

2013-09-29, 05:07 PM

avr

2013-09-29, 11:00 PM

So no psionic races?

Otherwise, psionic half-giant is going to rate highly for many many martial characters.

The mobility is only an issue if they are trying to enter melee on a consistent basis. They can still 5-ft. step, eventually gain access to the spell fins to feet (Dru 3, Wiz 3, Witch 3), which gives them a very solid land speed, or use just use archery.
I might have misled you - I meant that we're not singling out the single best race, not that we're not including psionic and other races. I did list the maenad (and half-giant) as great races for barbarians above.

Should we ever get that far I'll be sure to rate merfolk without a penalty for their land speed in the case of Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards and Witches.The practicalities of being the slowest thing around will still lead to a downgrade for archer rangers, I fear.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-29, 11:06 PM

I might have misled you - I meant that we're not singling out the single best race, not that we're not including psionic and other races. I did list the maenad (and half-giant) as great races for barbarians above.

Should we ever get that far I'll be sure to rate merfolk without a penalty for their land speed in the case of Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards and Witches.The practicalities of being the slowest thing around will still lead to a downgrade for archer rangers, I fear.Longstrider pushes them up to 25 ft. per round?

avr

2013-09-29, 11:15 PM

For the featured races, Aasimar are Great bards even without variant heritages. Their charisma bonus and alt favoured class bonus will do that. The variant heritages can give them a stat bonus useful in combat for a bard which seals the deal.

Catfolk are Good with DEX and CHA bonuses.

Dhampir I'm less sure about. DEX and CHA bonuses yes, but a penalty to CON is painful. The negative energy affinity is an awkward disadvantage. Probably Average.

Drow (standard) get the same stat bonuses as Dhampir but the other racial traits are IMO more useful. Still, SR and light blindness bring them down to somewhere in Average IMO.

avr

2013-09-29, 11:27 PM

Longstrider pushes them up to 25 ft. per round?
Hadn't thought of that. That makes a silly mental image, but I guess it does work.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-29, 11:34 PM

Craft (Cheese)

2013-09-29, 11:43 PM

ANd, BTW, there is another races guide (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1XvXoXHlLBk6bdi-8es4r-FDLiaEGnM9YTW6hMl5kuQo) for Pathfinder. It is not good, the ratings are not very well placed, not that I mean that they are all misplaced, but there are many headscratchers in there. A lot of work went into it though.

Just a quick scan gave me this:

"The favored class bonus [for Aasimar Clerics] is extremely good, giving you extra damage when using positive energy against undead (including when channeling or using cure spells for damage)."

Khosan

2013-09-30, 12:29 AM

In PF, Aasimar and Tieflings have all sorts of alternate class features in their respective companion books, and some of them change up the formula for certain classes. For example, a normal tiefling is a terrible (anti/)paladin, while a Pitborn (demon spawn) is great with their Str/Cha bonus. Different SLAs are pretty cool, too.

For Tieflings it does require a feat, which is a bit unfortunate. For the classes that would want to use them, I'd put it at Good, not Great.

Craft (Cheese)

2013-09-30, 12:37 AM

For Tieflings it does require a feat, which is a bit unfortunate. For the classes that would want to use them, I'd put it at Good, not Great.

The old Council of Thieves bloodlines required a feat, but the newer Blood of Fiends bloodlines don't. All you need is DM approval.

avr

2013-09-30, 01:59 AM

I'm not sure that SR is a bad thing for a class that can so effectively buff itself. Light blindness is an issue, though.
If the enemy is 2 levels higher than the drow (& doesn't have the spell penetration feat or similar) there's a 15% chance of SR blocking it; about the equivalent of a +1.5 on the save if the drow otherwise had a 50% chance of making the save. With a bigger level difference or with spell penetration the usefulness drops fast.

Also you'd still want to benefit from a Blessing of Fervor the party cleric puts out, or a Haste from a summoner in the party. A 25% failure chance (or requiring the drow to also spend a full round action each time) on these would be terribly annoying.

So I still consider it a net negative. If you don't, how would you rate the drow race for bards? Good, or still Average?

avr

2013-09-30, 02:44 AM

More featured races.

Fetchlings get DEX and CHA bonuses and some moderately relevant racial traits. Good.

Goblins get a penalty to a bards favorite stat but enough other useful stuff for a sneaky bard (+4 DEX, feat options like roll with it, etc) that I rate them Poor rather than any worse.

Hobgoblin bonuses are solid but not directly aimed at bards. I'm torn between Good and Average and I'd appreciate a second opinion here.

Ifrit are Good especially if they can get alternate racial traits such as Hypnotic or Efreeti-blooded.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-30, 02:59 AM

If the enemy is 2 levels higher than the drow (& doesn't have the spell penetration feat or similar) there's a 15% chance of SR blocking it; about the equivalent of a +1.5 on the save if the drow otherwise had a 50% chance of making the save. With a bigger level difference or with spell penetration the usefulness drops fast.

Also you'd still want to benefit from a Blessing of Fervor the party cleric puts out, or a Haste from a summoner in the party. A 25% failure chance (or requiring the drow to also spend a full round action each time) on these would be terribly annoying.

So I still consider it a net negative. If you don't, how would you rate the drow race for bards? Good, or still Average?I'd probably say green overall. The penalty to con hurts (as are the roleplaying implications of a Drow), but they get some nice stuff if you want to be an archery bard.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-30, 03:06 AM

More featured races.

Fetchlings get DEX and CHA bonuses and some moderately relevant racial traits. Good.

Goblins get a penalty to a bards favorite stat but enough other useful stuff for a sneaky bard (+4 DEX, feat options like roll with it, etc) that I rate them Poor rather than any worse. I'd actually push them to Average, but only because they're so strong at being a sneaky Bard. They can achieve an upwards of a +16 to stealth at level 1. Lower end of average, but average.

Goblins are just the best at being sneaky.

Hobgoblin bonuses are solid but not directly aimed at bards. I'm torn between Good and Average and I'd appreciate a second opinion here. Average. They have no alternate favored class options or racial traits that help with being a Bard.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-09-30, 11:04 AM

Good stuff guys, keep it coming. Should I take any of the races off the list? Does anyone play monkey goblins?!

Andvare

2013-09-30, 11:30 AM

Good stuff guys, keep it coming. Should I take any of the races off the list? Does anyone play monkey goblins?!

Probably not, but let them stay. One or two races more or less wont make a difference.

Andvare

2013-09-30, 11:58 AM

I'd probably say green overall. The penalty to con hurts (as are the roleplaying implications of a Drow), but they get some nice stuff if you want to be an archery bard.

Yeah, green.
One shouldn't discount their other racial benefits, like their Noble feat line. Deeper Darkness at will is potentially very strong. Levitate, Feather Fall, Faerie Fire and constant Detect Magic are all very useful in the right hands.
And +1 DC to enchantment spells is very nice for bards.
They do have three negatives, the con penalty, lacking a favoured class option, and they are drows. However, their specials do make them rather good archer/spellcaster bards (a levitating archer at low levels is quite annoying for a GM).

More races for the bard:

Kobold. Terrible. DO I have to mention why? I think Paizo saw the raw awesomeness of PunPun and his fellow 3.5 kobolds, and wanted revenge, or something.
Orc. Poor. Or terrible. The high strength does help with a melee bard, but still.
Oread. Terrible. Same as above, with lower strength. I am not impressed with their favoured class option.
Ratfolk. Poor. A bonus to dex is the only thing that really helps. Small, slow and weak. Meh.
Sylph. Poor. Again, only a dex bonus, this time with a penalty to con. Not good.
Tengu. Poor. Another one with dex bonus and con penalty. Though a wee bit better than the Sylph. Still not enough to rise up through the ranks though.
Tiefling. Average. Their vanilla type is downright awful, but they are saved by the Rakshasa-Spawn, at least somewhat.
Undine. Poor. A dex bonus, but a strength penalty, and a horrid favoured class option. Could be useful in a water campaign. On land, not so much.

AM I being too harsh?

BTW, I wont be evaluating any psionic races, as I have no experience with psionics.

Khosan

2013-09-30, 12:47 PM

Tiefling. Average. Their vanilla type is downright awful, but they are saved by the Rakshasa-Spawn, at least somewhat.

I'd say Good or Great, if you can get the alternate heritage without the feat. They're at least as good as Half-Elves.

3WhiteFox3

2013-09-30, 12:49 PM

Yeah, green.
One shouldn't discount their other racial benefits, like their Noble feat line. Deeper Darkness at will is potentially very strong. Levitate, Feather Fall, Faerie Fire and constant Detect Magic are all very useful in the right hands.
And +1 DC to enchantment spells is very nice for bards.
They do have three negatives, the con penalty, lacking a favoured class option, and they are drows. However, their specials do make them rather good archer/spellcaster bards (a levitating archer at low levels is quite annoying for a GM).

More races for the bard:

Kobold. Terrible. DO I have to mention why? I think Paizo saw the raw awesomeness of PunPun and his fellow 3.5 kobolds, and wanted revenge, or something.
Orc. Poor. Or terrible. The high strength does help with a melee bard, but still.
Oread. Terrible. Same as above, with lower strength. I am not impressed with their favoured class option.
Ratfolk. Poor. A bonus to dex is the only thing that really helps. Small, slow and weak. Meh.
Sylph. Poor. Again, only a dex bonus, this time with a penalty to con. Not good.
Tengu. Poor. Another one with dex bonus and con penalty. Though a wee bit better than the Sylph. Still not enough to rise up through the ranks though.
Tiefling. Average. Their vanilla type is downright awful, but they are saved by the Rakshasa-Spawn, at least somewhat.
Undine. Poor. A dex bonus, but a strength penalty, and a horrid favoured class option. Could be useful in a water campaign. On land, not so much.

AM I being too harsh?

BTW, I wont be evaluating any psionic races, as I have no experience with psionics.

Blue. Good. Dex Bonus, Str Penalty, Small Size; they aren't as amazing at being sneaky bards as their goblin cousins, but they aren't gimped in the Cha department either. They get other goodies, but a -1 penalty to Cha-based skills against non-goblins.

Dromite. Great. They've got the same great Halfling stats, but with a lot of goodies. They're slow, but also small, they get a small Nat. Armor bonus, a bit of energy resistance (5; cold, fire, acid, electricity or the rare sonic) to top it all off, they get scent.

Duergar. Terrible. Psionic dwarves with Light Sensitivity. They do have an awesome Psi-like ability in Expansion, which is like enlarge person but better, so they might make slightly better melee bards. I don't think it's enough to elevate them though.

Elan. Average. Floating stat boost, some Power Points, Resilience gives them a bit more ability to take damage, they have a -1 penalty to charisma-based skill checks against non-Elans. Nothing here that's really bad, but nothing that really stands out for the bard.

Half-Giant. Good/Average. Str bonus, Dex penalty. They get Powerful Build, which is great for melee bards. Nothing else really stands out for other bards.

Maenad. Average. Floating stat bonus. Outburst is pretty good for melee bards. Nothing else stands out.

Ophiduan. Poor. Dex Bonus, Cha Penalty; Darkvision, Nat. Armor Bonus, a scaling bite attack. They're a bit better for melee bards, but not by much.

Xeph. Good. Same stat bonuses as the Halfling and Dromite. Save bonus vs. spells and powers, burst gets them a speed booster.

Andvare

2013-09-30, 01:59 PM

I'd say Good or Great, if you can get the alternate heritage without the feat. They're at least as good as Half-Elves.

Tieflings, of the types that are most advantageous to bards (Demon-, Div- and Rakshasa-Spawn), are at best good. Half-elves have access to paragon-surge, which is tremendously powerful, so powerful that it can take sorcerers from tier 2 to tier 1. The tiefling has better stats, and only few other things in their favour for being bards.

Ninjaxenomorph

2013-09-30, 04:20 PM

They have some unique Masterpieces, which you should have access to if you are using the alternate bloodlines. Its no Paragon Surge, but...

avr

2013-09-30, 08:13 PM

Dromite. Great. They've got the same great Halfling stats, but with a lot of goodies. They're slow, but also small, they get a small Nat. Armor bonus, a bit of energy resistance (5; cold, fire, acid, electricity or the rare sonic) to top it all off, they get scent.
Halflings get a +1 to saves which is at least as good as the natural armour bonus, and I'm not sure the other two bonuses are enough to push a dromite up to Great. Higher up in Good sure, but not all the way to Great.

I'd also rate Duergar Poor and Ophiduans Terrible - Psionic Duergar only get -2 to CHA not -4 like their non-psionic cousins, and expansion and cloud mind as PLAs are much more useful than the bite. Expansion starts at a duration of 30 minutes for Duergar while Ophiduans have their bite for only 1 minute a day ever. Light sensitivity is not light blindness and can be worked around.

Rakshasa-spawn tieflings sound Good to me too.

avr

2013-09-30, 08:38 PM

More races.

Whatever ordinary goblins get, Monkey Goblins should too. At last report that was Average.

Androids get a CHA penalty (and an awkward penalty to Sense Motive for a social character) but many immunities and a DEX bonus. Poor.

Ghoran are tough and get a CHA bonus. These weird critturs rate as Good bards IMO. If their racial features were better suited to offense or if they had anything else benefiting bardic abilities they'd be Great.

Male Lashunta rate as Average. The females just scrape into Good with a CHA bonus and their telepathy for sneaky stuff.

3WhiteFox3

2013-09-30, 09:20 PM

Halflings get a +1 to saves which is at least as good as the natural armour bonus, and I'm not sure the other two bonuses are enough to push a dromite up to Great. Higher up in Good sure, but not all the way to Great.

I'd also rate Duergar Poor and Ophiduans Terrible - Psionic Duergar only get -2 to CHA not -4 like their non-psionic cousins, and expansion and cloud mind as PLAs are much more useful than the bite. Expansion starts at a duration of 30 minutes for Duergar while Ophiduans have their bite for only 1 minute a day ever. Light sensitivity is not light blindness and can be worked around.

Rakshasa-spawn tieflings sound Good to me too.

An amulet of Natural Armor +1 costs 2,000 gp. So at least in the designer's view, Natural Armor has more value. And natural armor is just a small part of the package.

I feel that scent alone is far more useful than a measly +1 to saves. A cloak of resistance +1 is 1,000 gp. Sure they stack, but so does the natural armor.

Energy Resistance is easier to find, but still extremely useful. (Though I wouldn't recommend it seeing how rare sonic damage is.)

The only official item that grants scent is druid specific (it essentially lets you wildshape into Giants) and costs 90,000 gp. That's almost impossible to extrapolate a cost out of however, so I'm not going to try.

However, cost alone only tells you how difficult it is to gain an ability. I feel that effects that scent gives you are enough to mitigate that loss. Scent is strong, giving you the ability to detect invisible and hiding creatures, it also helps you track enemies which can be quite useful. Scent is just a fantastically useful information-gathering ability.

I'm going to stick with Great for the Dromites.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-30, 09:25 PM

Commentary on Featured Race Estimates:
Aasimar: Unsurprisingly, a Great pick for a class that likes charisma. When we get to Clerics, we might need to invent a new, higher level for them.

Catfolk: I'd move them to Great. Bonuses to the two key stats, and a penalty to a typical Bard dump stat in wisdom, and some interesting alternate racial traits (climb speed, racial bonuses bluff, diplo, and sense motive, and scent). Weak Favored Class option.

Dhampir: Agreed, Average. Bonuses to the right stats, but nothing that really makes you want to play a Bard with this class when you can get those same stat bonuses somewhere else. Penalty to con hurts more than a penalty to wisdom, too.

Fetchling: Good, but I'm probably hotter on them than you are. Great racial features for a stealthy/scouty Bard, but really not much for anyone else.

Ifrits: Agree Good

Kobolds: ... Terrible^2

Orcs: The +4 strength isn't worth it in the long run, and if your'e doing a point buy, it's not worth it in the short run. Terrible

Oreads: Agree. Terrible

Ratfolk: I'd actually say Average because they're not taking a hit to charisma or con. Low end of Average, but average.

Slyphs: Agree. Poor

Tengu: Agree. Poor

Tiefling: I say cop-out and rate them as Average because there is too much variability within their ability scores.

Undine: I'd actually say Average because they're not taking a hit to charisma or con. Low end of Average, but average.

3WhiteFox3

2013-09-30, 09:41 PM

Responses on the Psionic Duergar and Ophiduans

I was comparing Psionic Duergar to dwarves and I feel that a couple of psi-like abilities (however good they are) just don't elevate them enough from their cousins and while what they lose compared to a dwarf is all of the situational abilities, they do lose quite a bit of them. The SLAs are only 1/day, and while expansion is quite nice, bards don't get as much out of it. Cloud Mind is 'Will Negates' and it derives save DCs from Charisma; while that means it keys off the bard's primary stat, it also takes a -1 penalty thanks to the charisma penalty.

If dwarves are Terrible, I think it's fair to call Duergar Terrible. If anyone else disagrees we could change it to Poor, but as it is right now, I'm not confidant of that. Their weaknesses are too many, some of the worst possible stat bonuses (Wisdom is the bard's dump stat, Constitution is a tertiary stat at best and the charisma penalty is awful), slow speed, light sensitivity; yeah I don't think they deserve Poor.

The main advantages Ophiduans have over Duergar are slightly better stats (Dexterity is more useful for most bards over Constitution) they have normal speed, +1 natural armor and a scaling bite attack (up to 4d8 at 16th level, which will benefit from enlarge person or vital strike). If the Ophiduans were slow or Duergar had normal speed, I'd definitely switch the ratings; as it is however, I prefer the Ophiduans.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-30, 10:01 PM

Uncommon Races: Unlike with the featured or core races where even classes without bonuses to charisma can be somewhat helpful with their racial traits, that probably isn't going to be the case with Uncommon races.

Changling, Poor Penalty to con without a bonus to another physical stat, and some pretty bad racial traits.

Duergar (non psionic): Terrible, but you knew that already.

Gillmen: Average Bonus to con and charisma, with a penalty to wisdom is nice. They come into their own in a campaign where you expect lots of water to be present. Avoid aboleths.

Grippli: Average No penalty to charisma. They sit on the lower end of average, only thanks to small size, normal speed, and racial traits helpful for the rogueish bard.

Kitsune: Great: Bonuses to dex and charisma, with a penalty to strength. Great. Oh, and it comes with a cool change shape ability. Oh, and they come with +1 racial increase of DC to enchantment spells. Oh, and a solid favored class option. Oh, and a bite attack.

Merfolk: ??? This thing's rating depend on how easy we think it is to get around 15 ft./round speed, and how likely a player is to absorb the impact of a the core rulebook to the head.

Nagaji: For you melee Bards out there. Good overall.

Samsarans: Poor and not terrible only because of mystic past life.

Strix: Poor You'll wish it was penalty to anything other than Charisma, but even with the fly speed this isn't the race for a bard.

Suli: For you melee Bards out there. Good overall. Deja Vu.

Svirfneblin: Terrible As Duergar

Vanara: Terrible. Nope.

Vishkanya: Good Bonuses to Dex and Cha, and the sensual trait is good for you with versatile performance. A very nice favored class bonus if you intend to be playing lots of magical music.

Wayang: Poor I find the favored class ability very interesting, but that's about all there is. I'd like a second opinion on this one.

avr

2013-09-30, 10:02 PM

An amulet of Natural Armor +1 costs 2,000 gp. So at least in the designer's view, Natural Armor has more value. And natural armor is just a small part of the package.

I feel that scent alone is far more useful than a measly +1 to saves. A cloak of resistance +1 is 1,000 gp. Sure they stack, but so does the natural armor.

Energy Resistance is easier to find, but still extremely useful. (Though I wouldn't recommend it seeing how rare sonic damage is.)

The only official item that grants scent is druid specific (it essentially lets you wildshape into Giants) and costs 90,000 gp. That's almost impossible to extrapolate a cost out of however, so I'm not going to try.

However, cost alone only tells you how difficult it is to gain an ability. I feel that effects that scent gives you are enough to mitigate that loss. Scent is strong, giving you the ability to detect invisible and hiding creatures, it also helps you track enemies which can be quite useful. Scent is just a fantastically useful information-gathering ability.

I'm going to stick with Great for the Dromites.
It's not whether scent is better than a save bonus. It is, though 90K equivalent is just ridiculous. I'd rate the actual usefulness of the save bonus as about equal to the natural armour + a random energy resist 5. The scent is a separate bonus on top of that.

The trouble is that Dromites don't have a lot to do when they're not singing or casting spells, their offence is really lacking being small, weak and slow. Without something to counter that I can't rate them Great. Finding invisible people isn't a combat role and it's barely an out of combat role.

BTW, following tracks uses at best the Dromite bards 3rd best stat and a cross class skill. Think about it.

Anyone else care to weigh in on the Dromites?

Squirrel_Dude

2013-09-30, 10:06 PM

I'd be willing to give them great. Like I said at the start, it won't surprise me if the Bard has lots of blue and green.

3WhiteFox3

2013-09-30, 10:38 PM

It's not whether scent is better than a save bonus. It is, though 90K equivalent is just ridiculous. I'd rate the actual usefulness of the save bonus as about equal to the natural armour + a random energy resist 5. The scent is a separate bonus on top of that.

The trouble is that Dromites don't have a lot to do when they're not singing or casting spells, their offence is really lacking being small, weak and slow. Without something to counter that I can't rate them Great. Finding invisible people isn't a combat role and it's barely an out of combat role.

BTW, following tracks uses at best the Dromite bards 3rd best stat and a cross class skill. Think about it.

Anyone else care to weigh in on the Dromites?

Did you mean random? The Dromite's energy resist certainly isn't random. You choose it during character creation. It also stacks, so it's never going to be worthless. Now I understand the point you're making, but the fact is that you can build a very effective support/caster Bard. I think that Dromites excel at this role, they also have expanded options (mainly from feats and psionic items) thanks to being psionic.

The main thing I like about them is that they excel at a defensive role. Especially during the early levels, levels which are especially hard on the bard. I also don't see what they lose over the Halfling, as Halflings are also slow, weak and small, (though Halflings do have good alternate racial traits and some decent feat support). If Halflings are great, Dromites should be also.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-01, 01:59 AM

Mini-rant:

ArcanistSupreme, just go ahead and put Aasimar as great choice for every single class. Somehow someone decided that a race should get a +2 bonus to two ability scores without penalty AND a boatload of racial bonuses. Sure the hobgoblin gets similar bonuses, but they get **** all for racial features (Just the goblin +4 stealth). Aasimar get skill bonuses, energy resistances, and SLAs.

Oh, and apparently someone at Paizo decided to compound this with the option to change your bloodline so that you can change what type of bonuses you get. Before they were just the best casting clerics in the game, and now you can basically choose to get a bonus to any of your key ability score and a second ability score and all the previous freaking god damned racial features.

Want to be a fighter? How about a bonuses to STR, CHA, and Alter Self as an SLA?

Want to be a Ranger? How about a bonuses to DEX, Wis, and See invisibility as an SLA

And on topic, what if you want to be a Bard? Aasimar were already good, but now you can get a bonus to Cha and dexterity, and get bonuses to diplomacy and perform, and get glitterdust as an SLA.

God dammit I hate this race. Sure the Merfolk, Samsaran, and Strix are quirky, but they're all unusual races, and have certain penalties involved with their quirky features. The Aasimar is a featured goddam race, and is broken in the most basic level.

I say again, God dammit. :smallfurious:

Andvare

2013-10-01, 05:39 AM

Strix: Poor You'll wish it was penalty to anything other than Charisma, but even with the fly speed this isn't the race for a bard.

I disagree.
The charisma penalty does hurt. But the fly speed is awesome, and they make fantastic archer bards because of the bonus to dex and flying means that they can stay out of reach from most enemies in the first five or ten levels, while still buffing their allies with performance or spells. ANd all their specials helps them, though not the bards class specifically. Darkvision+lowlight is great, and they can get a +1 fortitude save, as good as a top tier trait, an attack bonus against humans and half-humans is also more useful than most other racial specifics, and double so for a 3/4 BAB class. A +2 bonus to perception is something everyone likes.
They don't do that well as either spellcaster or melee bards though.
I'd rate them as average, because some of the traits are rather campaign specific (quite good in Kingmaker, less so in a city campaign), and they only excel in one area of the bard class.

Andvare

2013-10-01, 05:49 AM

God dammit I hate this race. Sure the Merfolk, Samsaran, and Strix are quirky, but they're all unusual races, and have certain penalties involved with their quirky features. The Aasimar is a featured goddam race, and is broken in the most basic level.

I say again, God dammit. :smallfurious:

Agree completely. Where is the negative aspect of the race? They are not even humanoids. And with the resent, and stupid, FAQ, they are the prime suspect for several early entrance to certain prestige classes.
Bah.

Ninjaxenomorph

2013-10-01, 06:35 AM

3WhiteFox3

2013-10-01, 10:29 AM

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-01, 10:42 AM

I disagree.
*snip*The flying is more important for classes that don't have access to some other way to do that. Bards do, but I getting it early is nice. I still say poor because I'm not convinced they are the best at being an archer, and not really good for anything else.

Also, if we're going to do any worrying about roleplaying baggage, ignoring that fluff is mutable (except when it's diamond-plated concrete), they do come with the little bit about hating humans.

So their stats will be ever so slightly higher than another race?Oh, no. Their ability scores are slightly higher than every other race, except Merfolk (who have their own issues).

Andvare

2013-10-01, 12:57 PM

I just checked the FAQ and found out that half-orcs and half-elves finally actually count as being both races for all effects, including racial archetypes and favored class bonuses! It's about time (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c).

About **** time!

Edit: I was about to enter into a rant about SKR and stupid rulings, but decided not to. Not the place.

Andvare

2013-10-01, 01:34 PM

Before I begin with the races for the cleric, I feel that we talk a little about the ability priority of a cleric.
Now a cleric can use all attributes. Wisdom is obviously the general primary stat, but depending on sub-role, the actual primary stat could be any of the attributes, except int. And skill points are rarely so unimportant that int is a true dump stat.
On the other hand, charisma for a cleric is overrated. I am not impressed by the channel ability. Unless you want to go all in on the undead side, charisma is not a primary stat.
This means that a lot of races will be good in one or two roles. Except kobolds, they just suck.
So how do we rate the races with this class? Wisdom/floating bonus would be required for good or better, right?

Human. Great. Floating bonus and an extra feat for a feat starved class. Excel in all the sub-roles of the class. Not impressed by the favoured class option.
Aasimar. Great. Silly race for the class. Everything is good, except the favoured class option, which apply negative pressure inside an oral opening usually found close to the brain of most living beings. They don't really do all that well in the melee cleric role though.
Dwarves. Good. It is not so much their penalty to charisma that keeps them from being great, it's more their low speed. Their increase to save does help. For once, the favoured class option is actually useful, if a bit situational.
Half-Elves. Good. I'm not sure about this. A floating bonus is good, as is the Skill Focus, if for nothing else than to get to Eldritch Heritage (getting wizard spells as a cleric is bloody awesome). Paragon Surge is also useful, though not quite as useful as for a spontaneous caster. However, nothing else they get is helping much.
Half-Orc. Good. Again, a bit torn. Ferocity does help, the favoured class option is useful, and Everybody Loves Raymond darkvision. But nothing much to come for.
Halflings. Average. Slow and weak. Two bad things about a class that often has to go into melee range. With Fleet-Footed they do become somewhat competent archers, however, that charisma bonus doesn't help there. They are actually better suited for the necromancer role...
Gnome. Poor. Not very well suited for the class, infact I'd say that they are only suited for the necromancer role, which they do somewhat well. Still, to little to help them up to average. Far better suited as oracle necromancers. They have the [solid fecal matter]tiest favoured class option I know of.
Elves. Terrible. A bonus to the only attribute that doesn't directly help any of the sub-roles. And a penalty to con to boot.

Edit: Changed Horcs from average to good.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-01, 01:47 PM

Yes, Wisdom/Floating would be the ideal bonus. No penalties to con (except if you're a Samsaran), wisdom, or charisma allowed, but most other penalties could be worked around with the classes diverse skill set.

Half-Orcs I would rate as good with the weapon proficiencies, floating bonus, and ferocity. They'll make a solid caster cleric, and a good melee cleric. I'd say that they're at least as good as the half-elf. Paragon Surge just isn't that strong for non-spontaneous casters.

Gnomes/Halfling. If anything, I would switch up their ratings here, or drop them both down to poor. Gnomes have the alternate trait Fell Magic, which will make them a better necromancer than the halfling.

Dwarves I'm not so sure what to do with. I want to say good, with the bonus to wisdom, but they're getting a bonus to con (when really a bonus to strength or dex would be better) and a penalty to charisma. I just figure there are better options out there.

I would also add to the Aasimar, that there is an alternate bloodlines that gives a bonus to Dex/Wis (for archers), or Con/Wis (for melee). As I said before, I feel like they should get their own special color for this class, they are such a strong choice.

Andvare

2013-10-01, 02:14 PM

Gnomes/Halfling. If anything, I would switch up their ratings here, or drop them both down to poor. Gnomes have the alternate trait Fell Magic, which will make them a better necromancer than the halfling.

The reason why I rated halflings higher than gnomes, is that they can get a base move of 30ft, which is a fair bit better than +1DC to necromancer spells IMHO. Necromancer clerics isn't about casting offensive stuff, but getting a lot of strong minions.
Gnomes are better debuffers though.

TiaC

2013-10-01, 05:12 PM

Dwarves. Good. It is not so much their penalty to charisma that keeps them from being great, it's more their low speed. Their increase to save does help. For once, the favoured class option is actually useful, if a bit situational.
The slow speed doesn't hurt that bad as in plate they're no slower than a human.

Half-Elves. Good. I'm not sure about this. A floating bonus is good, as is the Skill Focus, if for nothing else than to get to Eldritch Heritage (getting wizard spells as a cleric is bloody awesome). Paragon Surge is also useful, though not quite as useful as for a spontaneous caster. However, nothing else they get is helping much. Clerics have to prepare at one time of day, so they really don't get much from Paragon Surge.

Andvare

2013-10-01, 06:02 PM

The slow speed doesn't hurt that bad as in plate they're no slower than a human.
Clerics have to prepare at one time of day, so they really don't get much from Paragon Surge.

Clerics aren't proficient with heavy armour, and heavy armour is often less advantageous than medium due to the slower speed, especially when you can get mithril armour.
And clerics don't have to prepare only once, infact it is advised that they leave a few spell slots open. However, that later preparation does take a minimum of 15 minutes, and the spell only last 1min/level, so it probably needs Extend Spell for it to work (or the Ring of Continuation, if you play without the FAQ rules).

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-01, 06:13 PM

Both medium and heavy armors knock your speed down to 20 ft. per round, and while at high levels that is no longer the case, at high levels characters will be flying around, anyway.

Andvare

2013-10-01, 06:16 PM

Both medium and heavy armors knock your speed down to 20 ft. per round, and while at high levels that is no longer the case, at high levels characters will be flying around, anyway.

You are right of course.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-10-02, 09:40 AM

Bard updated. Cleric will probably have to wait until tomorrow. Did I catch the final decisions on everything? I basically tried to update everything to the last rating that was given to them, with the reasoning that disputes would continue if there was a disagreement.

Merfolk (and other aquatic races) will eventually be given a note at the beginning explaining the potential variance in their ratings.

I want to thank everyone for weighing in on this project. It's coming along faster than I expected, and it's all thanks to you guys!

3WhiteFox3

2013-10-02, 12:13 PM

Blue. Average. Small and weak, making for poor melee ability, they don't especially excel as casters, are ok at archery (but not the best). What saves them is the 30' movement without alternate racial traits and the fact that they can make excellent stealthy cleric builds. They treat Stealth as a class skill and get a +2 bonus, on top of the +4 small bonus and the Dex bonus which will be a large swing on a pure cleric.

Dromite. Average Another small, weak and slow race. They really have nothing that really stands out for a cleric. They are decent scouts and tanks, but clerics aren't really built for either of those roles. I will say this, They get what is essentially a +3 swing in AC (Dex, Small, Nat. Armor) which means that they can wear a chain shirt and have the same land speed but slightly better AC than the Breastplate user which I feel makes up for the slower speed. Scent is useful as always, as is energy resistance.

Psionic Duergar. Great. They're slow but don't get any slower in medium armor (which most clerics will be using anyway). Have pretty good stats, Con is always useful and Wisdom is great for clerics. They'd be Good if it wasn't for Expansion, for a melee cleric, this more than makes up for the slower speed and lack of strength bonus. However, it's only once per day which is very limiting, but for that one fight, Expansion is amazing. They are essentially dwarves that has some psionic traits in exchange for the more situational dwarf ability. Be careful about that light sensitivity though.

Elan. Average. Floating Bonus, both resilience and resistance are useful in a pinch (the favored class bonus can be used to get a bit more out of them). They don't have anything that really stands out for any specific cleric role, but they aren't bad either.

Half-Giant. Great. Hafl-Giants may actually be able to compete with Aasimar when it comes to cleric races. Near perfect ability score bonuses (channel energy is a very mediocre option for melee clerics, so a Cha penalty doesn't hurt much) and powerful build are what you care about. Every other nifty ability (Low Light Vision, counting as humans and giants, survival bonus, psionics, save bonus against fire based effects) that they have is just icing on the, already delicious, cake.

Andvare

2013-10-03, 03:06 AM

A batch of featured races for the cleric.

Catfolk. Terrible. A penalty to wisdom hurts. One of the worst featured races for a cleric.
Dhampir. Terrible. Would be poor or average if it wasn't for the Negative Energy Affinity. That is just not good.
Drow. Average? The con penalty hurts. But they do get a lot of stuff that is useful for most classes, including the cleric. Their racial archetype is good, but only shines with a group that is neither good nor lawful, and fights against enemies that are lawful or good, a rare thing. Their favoured class option is useful, and charisma and dex are both useful stats, plus their racial feats are quite good, if undervalued. Close to good actually, but that they are drow and the con penalty hurts. I would like a second opinion here. Their spell resistance helps them for once, as the cleric is usually the main buffer/healer.
Fetchling. Terrible. Penalty to wisdom, yuck! They do have a lot of stuff that is fun, and a bonus to charisma and dex is nice. But a penalty to the main stat of the class means that they can never be really good at any of the sub-roles, because too many points have to go towards wisdom.
Goblin. Poor. Small and fast, that is good, if only they had some decent stats to back it up. Dex is good, but with a strength penalty, they will struggle to put out decent damage. They can work very well as a melee cleric though, as long as they get their little hands on the agile enchantment.
Hobgoblin. Average. Decent archer clerics, with that bonus to con and dex. But unimpressive specials, and a very poor excuse for a favoured class option.
Ifrit. Terrible. See fetchling for reason, they are almost alike in this regard.
Kobold. Is it time to finally come out of the terrible swamp that they have been drowning in? No, I don't think so. Terrible. The favoured class option is just insult to injury, and a contender for worst favoured class option.
Orc. Terrible. Yeah, that strength is nice, but they get a penalty to both class specific stat, and int. They can work as a melee cleric, but might as well choose fighter instead, as they are no good at being a cleric. Better than the Kobold though.
Oread. Good. Would have been great melee clerics, if they weren't slow. Near perfect stat mods for melee cleric. Horrible favoured class option. Too bad they don't have the dwarf move-not-slow-in-armour ability.
Ratfolk. Terrible. Nothing really help the cleric here, and the con penalty, plus the slow move, hurts. Not far from poor though.
Sylph. Poor. Pretty much the same as the ratfolk, but faster and with a bit more useful specials. Close to terrible.
Tengu. Good. With a bonus to wisdom and dex, they make excellent archer clerics. The penalty to con does hurt though, and they are few other goodies, except that they are trained in all the best melee weapons, if only that was bows instead.
Tiefling. Poor or Great. Great with the variant heritages. Qlippoth-Spawn has the perfect stats for a melee cleric, Asura-Spawn would be very good archer clerics and Demodand-Spawn are great caster clerics. Vanilla isn't suited for a cleric though. Their favoured class option is useful, though quite situational, not that good, but unlike most other races, it isn't a complete waste.
Undine. Good. If it weren't for that penalty to strength, they would be great archer clerics. They do work well as caster clerics though. They, of course, work best in water themed campaigns, like Skulls and Shackles (dunno I haven't played it).

That should be all the featured races.

Comments, disagreements?

Edit: I've changed my mind on the penalty to wisdom races. They are more or less an automatic terrible, because a penalty to widom means you have to invest quite a lot of your points into wisdom, to be able to cast spells. That is not feasible.

Andvare

2013-10-03, 02:42 PM

Cleric Uncommon Races.

Changelings. Good. A constitution penalty hurts, but a bonus to both wisdom and charisma means that their casting ability will be good. That they also have some things that helps with being a melee cleric, like natural armour and higher melee damage. Not good archer clerics though..
Duergar. Average. A bonus to wisdom is nice. They get a large penalty to charisma, so don't expect much channelling, but a cleric can function well without. Great immunities, no really great immunities, nice SLAs, which can be converted into an anti-SR racial trait, and they can also lose that horrid light sensitivity. A very good race, that large penalty to charisma does hurt, and you still want channelling outside of combat. If you don't care about channelling at all, these are a great race.
Gillmen. Terrible. Wisdom penalty. Yuck! Plus they are generally sucky. If you are in a water campaign, merfolks are better at everything, if you are in an amphibious campaign, undines are, almost, better at everything. A truly horrid and pointless race.
Grippli. Good. Small but fast. A strength penalty is rarely something that you can ignore, but they do make great clerics that focuses on some form of casting. And with an agile enchanment, they can even function well as melee clerics. Plus an excellent stealth on top. Nice. Actually close to great, due to the agile enchantment is so cheap, and therefore easy to get. Not great archers though, as you cannot get agile on your bows.
Kitsune. Average. A lot of stuff here that aren't bad, but also aren't really that good for a cleric. Too bad that they have a strength penalty, they would make good fighters and melee cleric otherwise. Nothing that really stops them from being clerics, so more or less the definition of meh.
Merfolk. Somewhere between good and terrible.
Nagaji. Average. They do make decent melee clerics, but otherwise nothing special.
Samsarans. Great. Wisdom bonus and Mystic Past Life. Yes please. There are some really nice Druid spells to get here. The one race that can get the great rating with a con penalty.
Strix. Average. And only because of that sweet permanent 60ft fly speed. It's like a permanent fly spell, that can't be dispelled. Marvellous for keeping out of touch. Best at early levels, but a non-dispellable fly spell is something everybody would like.
Suli. Average. Though only as melee clerics. But energy resistance and energy attack, is quite good for a melee character.
Svirfneblin. Average/Poor The svirf, svit, sirb... deep gnome does have a bonus to wisdom, and a large penalty to charisma, and they are slow. They also have a high SR, which usually is more of a downside, but since this is the cleric, I think that it is, for once, a bonus to the class. Good caster clerics, but us that good enough for a good score (http://instantrimshot.com/)? No.
Vanara. Good. Wisdom and dex bonus, with a charisma penalty. Okay racial specials. A good cleric race, if a bit boring. Works well as both casters, archers and melee/agile clerics.
Vishkanya. Terrible. Penalty to wisdom. Yuck! Plenty of things that make this an assassin race, not a cleric race.
Wayangs. Terrible. Penalty to wisdom. Yuck! Though one of their racial abilities should be mentioned. Light and Dark, thematic for a cleric using channelling. Too bad they don't have a bonus to charisma either. Double yuck!

That should be them all, unless we missed any,

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-03, 03:19 PM

Decided to finish up on the uncommon races, unsure if you had stopped a bit. Anyway, here are my opinions on them, Andvare.

My Ratings
Merfolk. Good No bonus to wisdom slight hurts, but everything else works fine. Just don't be That Guy and bring them to Katapesh or other desert settings.

Nagaji: Average Not a bad choice. They make better paladins/cOdzillas than clerics, though. Consider them if you're thinking about going for the Holy Vindicator PrC or plan on using lots of channels.

Samsaran. Great Penalty to con hurts, but it comes with a bonus to wisdom. Mystic past life is what really what pushes this option over the top though. So so so much can be done with that ability, even at low levels.

Suli: Average See Nagaji.

Strix: Poor They make a decent archer cleric, but that's about it. Your a class that likes to buff and heal people, so you'll want to be near melee so flight isn't a huge boon for you until you and everyone else has access to flight.

Svirfneblin: Poor I guess if you don't want to use channel in any way, these aren't the worst pick. Wouldn't recommend them, though.

Vanara: Average Not a terrible pick for an archer cleric, but these guys make much better druids.

Vishkanya: Terrible Penalty to wisdom, with penalties for rogueish characters. Nope, not for you.

Wayang: Terrible Bonuses to the most commonly dumped cleric stats, and penalty to wisdom. Slow speed. No favored class options at all. Run, run far away.

Comments on your Ratings
Duergar: Average Penalty to Charisma is too big. Not focusing on channel is fine, but that penalty basically removes the option from the clerics toolbox entirely. Everything else about the class is really nice. Everything else is still enough to make them average clerics, but I can't say that they're more than that.

Merfolk: Yeah, I'll actually change my opinion on these things to where you put them. Which is to say that I also don't really know how to properly rate them. Not a well thought out race IMO.

Drow: Seem appropriately put at Average, maybe poor. The Charisma bonus makes them better as oracles than clerics. Other bonuses are nice, though they also come with drawbacks.

Orcs: Terrible They don't even make good melee clerics. Pick a half-orc instead, and you'll come out with better overall stats and probably a similar if not the same strength. The -2 to all mental stats just can't be overcome as a cleric.

Tiefling: I'm tempted to make them even more polar, Great or Terrible, but even the base race has some really nice alternate racial traits for casters.

Andvare

2013-10-03, 03:48 PM

Decided to finish up on the uncommon races, unsure if you had stopped a bit. Anyway, here are my opinions on them, Andvare.

My Ratings
Merfolk. Good No bonus to wisdom slight hurts, but everything else works fine. Just don't be That Guy and bring them to Katapesh or other desert settings.

Nagaji: Average Not a bad choice. They make better paladins/cOdzillas than clerics, though. Consider them if you're thinking about going for the Holy Vindicator PrC or plan on using lots of channels.

Samsaran. Great Penalty to con hurts, but it comes with a bonus to wisdom. Mystic past life is what really what pushes this option over the top though. So so so much can be done with that ability, even at low levels.

Suli: Average See Nagaji.

Strix: Poor They make a decent archer cleric, but that's about it. Your a class that likes to buff and heal people, so you'll want to be near melee so flight isn't a huge boon for you until you and everyone else has access to flight.

Svirfneblin: Poor I guess if you don't want to use channel in any way, these aren't the worst pick. Wouldn't recommend them, though.

Vanara: Average Not a terrible pick for an archer cleric, but these guys make much better druids.

Vishkanya: Terrible Penalty to wisdom, with penalties for rogueish characters. Nope, not for you.

Wayang: Terrible Bonuses to the most commonly dumped cleric stats, and penalty to wisdom. Slow speed. No favored class options at all. Run, run far away.

Comments on your Ratings
Duergar: Average Penalty to Charisma is too big. Not focusing on channel is fine, but that penalty basically removes the option from the clerics toolbox entirely. Everything else about the class is really nice. Everything else is still enough to make them average clerics, but I can't say that they're more than that.

Merfolk: Yeah, I'll actually change my opinion on these things to where you put them. Which is to say that I also don't really know how to properly rate them. Not a well thought out race IMO.

Drow: Seem appropriately put at Average, maybe poor. The Charisma bonus makes them better as oracles than clerics. Other bonuses are nice, though they also come with drawbacks.

Orcs: Terrible They don't even make good melee clerics. Pick a half-orc instead, and you'll come out with better overall stats and probably a similar if not the same strength. The -2 to all mental stats just can't be overcome as a cleric.

Tiefling: I'm tempted to make them even more polar, great or terrible, but even the base race has some really nice alternate racial traits for casters.

I did stop, I had some food to make.
I think I agree on most of your ratings. I really don't like channelling much, you either have to focus on it to use it in combat, or only use it outside of combat. But you are right that it is still useful outside of combat, and so should be there.
Strix I'll put at Average. They fly speed helps all classes, but you are right that they, as clerics, still have to come into melee range.
The Vanara still has a bonus to wisdom and dex, which means they can work well as archer, melee/agile or caster clerics. The charisma penalty is low enough that it isn't that much a hindrance.

Edit: Tieflings I wouldn't put as great. They can get great stats, but it still cost a feat in those instances IIRC.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-03, 03:56 PM

I want to say that Tieflings no longer have to take a feat, but I can't find any source for that, so I agree that they're only good.

Andvare

2013-10-03, 04:16 PM

I want to say that Tieflings no longer have to take a feat, but I can't find any source for that, so I agree that they're only good.

Blood of Fiends.

I guess that that book does supersede Council of Thieves book 1.
Dunno if there is any official ruling.

Edit: It doesn't actually say anything about the heritages needing anything, so I don't know.
Edit2 Changed tiefling to great.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-10-04, 08:49 PM

I finally got around to updating (sorry it took so long). We are missing the following races for Cleric:
Android
Ghoran
Lashunta
Maenad
Ophiduan
Xeph

Then it's time for some good ol' Druid!

By the way, I'm going to start putting "?" next to all Merfolk ratings with a footnote about aquatic campaigns and whatever, and I will put "*" by Tiefling ratings where variant heritages change the score.

Ninjaxenomorph

2013-10-04, 10:20 PM

In the Advanced Race Guide, they also have a cleric archetype which is pretty interesting. Channeling is changed to heal evil and harm good, d4 dice, and can cause conditions, get a fiendish familiar which upgrades to Improved Familiar for free. Only problem is that you HAVE to be Evil.

TiaC

2013-10-05, 02:08 AM

By the way, I'm going to start putting "?" next to all Merfolk ratings with a footnote about aquatic campaigns and whatever, and I will put "*" by Tiefling ratings where variant heritages change the score.

You could make the * the color of the variant heritage.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-05, 02:42 AM

I finally got around to updating (sorry it took so long). We are missing the following races for Cleric...
[list]

Android Terrible Bonuses to things you probably don't care about, with a penalty to charisma on top of that.

Ghoran Poor They don't have a bonus to wisdom, but have the ability to produce a duplicate of themselves. Unfortunately, you probably can't go without sunlight for more than 2 days.

Lashunta Terrible Either get a penalty to constitution or a penalty to wisdom, with neither option giving you a bonus to those two scores.

Maenad Good +2 to any score, and a couple other semi interesting abilities. Nothing to push them to great, though. Honestly on the lower end of good as far as I can tell.

Ophiduan Average Bonus to wisdom and dex, with a penalty to wisdom. They make good archery clerics, but aren't great at much else. If you want to do some psionic stuff with a cleric, this isn't a bad choice.

Xeph Poor. Nothing really here for you as a cleric.

The Oni

2013-10-05, 03:59 AM

I am deeply offended by the racism in this post.

Andvare

2013-10-07, 10:09 AM

Due to my mom being hospitalised late last week, I haven't been able to contribute much, and I don't know when I will either, but I do plan to come back when that is over.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-10-07, 10:35 AM

You could make the * the color of the variant heritage.

I could, but I feel like it wouldn't be very readable and would be annoying. I think I'll just stick with my plain ol' asterisk.

-snip-

Completely forgot that all of this had been posted :smallredface:. Cleric is now updated and we can move on to druid!

Due to my mom being hospitalised late last week, I haven't been able to contribute much, and I don't know when I will either, but I do plan to come back when that is over.

I'm sorry to hear that. We appreciate all that you've done so far, and don't feel in any way obligated to participate more until you are ready.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-07, 02:02 PM

Druid Core Races

Dwarf Remember how with the Cleric I cared about charisma. Well... I don't with the Druid. The con bonus is good for melee, and the wisdom bonus is great for casters. They also have some alternate racial traits that can be useful for a druid that replace some of the more eclectic traits (stonecunning/hatred). Not a great favored class option unless you have a really strong domain power.

Elf: Penalties to things you care about, bonuses to things that you don't. Bad alternate racial traits. Solid Favored Option. If you want to play the elf racial archetype, be a half-elf.

Gnome If they had a penalty to wisdom they'd be farther down he list. Not a great pick by any means. Similar to Clerics, these guys work well as minionmancers (forming an animal army for Druids). Decent favored class alternative, but mostly bad alternate racial traits.

I could be convinced to drop them down.

Half-Elf Human floating +2 bonus, with a very solid favored class alternate, and not bad

Halfling Similar to gnomes. Slightly better than them because they are able to get up to a 30 ft. move speed, and are more efficient with slings, and can gain a bonus to AC against larger targets. Mediocre alternate favored class option.

Half-Orc Floating ability score bonus. Make better melee druids than other core entries with ferocity. You can drop darkvision to gain the human skill point/level bonus. Mediocre favored class alternate.

Human Humans are good at things. They have an unfortunately terrible favored class option. They're not the strongest pick for the Druid, but you can't hurt yourself by playing them.

Andvare

2013-10-10, 07:26 PM

I'm sorry to hear that. We appreciate all that you've done so far, and don't feel in any way obligated to participate more until you are ready.

It turned out to be quite bothersome and painful, but probably not dangerous (something akind to a mild form of ileus, though I failed to understand what precisely).

Anyhoo, on to the races.

Gnomes and halflings are even less useful as druids than clerics. They get a bonus to the one stat that is the true dumpstat of the druid, charisma. And a penalty to strength, meaning they will struggle as a melee druid. With no bonus to spellcasting they do not function well as druids.
If you rate elves as terrible, and that is probably true for the "subtle masters of the wilderness"*, then the two small races should probably rate as poor at best. Every time I see someone advocating strength as a dumpstat, I cringe, as they are most likely not using encumbrance rules, or start at higher levels. Try to see just how much equipment you can actually carry, when you have a strength of less than ten. Even a wizard is challenged with that heavy spellbook.
Both the half-elves and half-orcs are on the lower side of great, certainly not as great as humans. Dwarves are great though, and thoroughly undervalued in Treantmonk's guide. Their slow nature matters little when you can turn into a 120ftpr fly speed animal.

*From Advanced Race Guide.

Featured races.

Aasimar. Good to great. Depending on the heritage used. Garuda-Blooded is a great option for caster druids. And the silly amount of money you can get with Archon-Blooded SLA is, well, silly (I think I'll hire one to make the street lights of the city I'm building in a Kingmaker campaign ;) ), they also make very nice druids. The standard Aasimar is "only" good though.
Catfolk. Terrible. Bonus to charisma and penalty to wisdom, with a bonus to dexterity on the side. Too many of this type of stat mods around, all terrible for the druid.
Dhampir. Terrible. Even though the Vetala-Born (from Blood of the Night companion book) alternate heritage is very nicely suited for a druid (+ Wis/Dex -Int, and some other small changes), the Negative Energy Affinity means they cannot heal themselves. As a druid, you are most likely expected to be the healer, and if you cannot heal yourself, you will at some point fail miserably in combat. A bonus to UMD helps with this though, but still a horrible choice. Less so for a cleric, and I might actually be persuaded to up the cleric rating on these to poor due to the variant heritages.
Drow. Poor. I like the Drow specials, but there is just not enough there to up this race to average. The only thing that saves these murky elves is that they do not have a penalty to wisdom.
Fetchling. Terrible. A penalty to wisdom and a bonus to charisma, no thanks. There is nothing for the race in the specials to save it from the bottom, and with those stat mods, it should have been a lot.
Goblin. Poor? I'm a bit torn here. The small frame doesn't really matter with the druids, as they can just change that. The penalty to charisma doesn't matter, but the other stat mods aren't all that. Decent caster druids I guess, with high ac and good ranged touch attack to hit. Still, not a lot of stuff besides the dex bonus that matters.
Hobgoblin. Good. A bonus to both dex and con means they are decent melee druids. The +4 to stealth means they can scout as well. I find the race boring though, and could be talked into lowering the rating to average, as they do not get a bonus to strength.
Ifrit. Terrible. Another bonus to cha, penalty to wis. Next!
Kobold. Terrible. I think I'll stop writing why these suck, it isn't worth the effort. Except to note that their optional favoured class bonus is terrible as well (most of them are).
Orc. Terrible. If only they didn't have that penalty to wisdom, they would be great melee druids. Oh well. Depending on how you read their favoured class bonus, it can be quite good. But a full caster with a penalty to its casting stat will have to invest far too much in it to be effective.
Oread. Great. A contender for the best melee druid race. Their slow speed stops being an issue when the druid gets wildshape. But damn that favoured class option sucks.
Ratfolk. Poor. A penalty to strength and no bonus to wisdom. Rats! (http://instantrimshot.com/) sorry
Sylph. Poor. The resistance is okay, and the bonus to dex and penalty to con mostly balances each other out. Then a bonus to int, bah. Bordering on average, because they don't have all that many negative sides.
Tengu. Good. Good caster druids with that bonus to wisdom and dex, if only the penalty where in another stat but con. Nice specials for a class that has such a limited range of melee weapons. An elemental form with a decent selection of weapons? Yeah, that would be nice. Close to great.
Tiefling. Avereat. The ever troublesome tiefling. Average to great. Oni-spawn makes an awesome druid, and devil-spawn is not bad either.
Undine. Good. I do not like a penalty to strength, but they do make fine caster druids. Their special movement is of course less important for a druid that can change into a large fish. Their racial archetype is a small upgrade, but still an upgrade. Mostly useful in a water campaign, no surprise there.

Edit: Missed Aasimar and Catfolk the first time around, now added.

Andvare

2013-10-10, 08:21 PM

Uncommon races.

Changeling. Good. An odd mixture. A bonus to wisdom is good, a bonus to charisma doesn't matter. But a bonus to melee damage is quite good, as the druid can get an awful lot of attacks. The penalty to con hurts though.
Duergar. Great. Very mush so. A bonus to wisdom and con, a penalty that doesn't matter, a size and speed that doesn't matter, and a crap-tonne of awetastic specials. Somehow all this on an eight point race, yeah that system is balanced... (no sarcasm here, no sir)
Gillmen. Terrible. As I said earlier, these have little reason to exist (except for fluff), either play Undines, Humans or Merfolk instead. Poor design.
Grippli. Good. A strength penalty means they don't do melee druids very well, but a bonus to wisdom and dex means they do caster druids expertly. I like nets, but since they are small in size, they have few enemies that they can use it on, and I just don't see that many huge elementals wielding huge nets.
Kitsune. Poor. A penalty to strength, so not that good in melee, no wisdom bonus, meh. The pounce feat is good, but it comes at level 10 at the earliest, plus with that low strength, it is of limited use. This race would be more useful if it had a penalty to something instead of strength.
Merfolk. The big questionmark. However, the Undies makes for far better druids, even in an all underwater campaign, due to the Undine druid archetype (it makes the Undines able to breathe under water). So even in an all-underwater campaign, these would never rate higher than good. So somewhere between terrible and good.
Nagaji. Average. The strength bonus does help with the melee side of the druid, but the charisma bonus doesn't. Meh.
Samsarans. Great. Not great melee druids though. Would be good, if not for Mystic Past Life. Not as convincing as when we come to the oracle/sorcerer, there the Samsarans really shine.
Strix. Poor. Yeah, the one time I rate this race poorly, and it is because pretty much all their goodies (movement + perception) are copied by the class special powers (I will also rate them poorly when we come to sorcerer and the oracle, a penalty to charisma just doesn't work there).
Suli. Average. Good fighters, meh druids.
Svirfneblin. Good. Only as caster druids though, that penalty to strength is not helping any. I like the spell resistance here though, as the druid is a prime buffer, it doesn't hurt them much. In general great defensive specials, though who the hell would ever choose Healthy over Fortunate puzzles me (balance much?).
Vanara. Great. Near perfect stat mods, and for once a useful favoured class option, as you still have to use handle animal to get the animals you summon to do anything other than just attack (and that requires you to push it, not a trivial DC that). I'd probably go with +1 skill point though. Great caster druids, decent melee druids.
Vishkanya. Terrible. A penalty to wisdom, and a bonus to charisma. No thanks. Oh, and a mostly useless poison use on top.
Wayangs. Terrible. Wisdom penalty, useless.

Some thoughts on why int isn't a dump stat for druids.
Although you do get 4+int skill points per level, you need those four, and probably more. You absolutely need to put skill points into Knowledge Nature, or you won't have the knowledge to wildshape into the beastie of your choice, you certainly will want to have Handle Animal, or you can't command those beasties you have working for you to do much, perception is something that everybody wants, but as it is a class skill and you are the only wisdom based character that has it as such (I don't count the monk), you better keep it up, as you can get it higher than anyone else, it is one of those skills that almost never can get high enough. You also want to invest in Fly, as you will be flying a lot. That is four skills right there. Besides those, you will want to invest in Spellcraft (how much depends on the party), Linguistics and Healing. Perhaps not max these out, but some skill points in them is advisable. That is at least five skill points each level, six is probably preferable, but rarely possible (unless you are a human druid). That favoured class bonus will come in handy, but that int can't be dumped all that much, certainly not lower than 10 IMHO.

avr

2013-10-10, 09:18 PM

My $0.02 on the uncommon races from a druid's perspective:

Changeling: Bonus to Wisdom which is very nice of course, but a penalty to Constitution, and all the other racial features seem to be pushing towards a melee character who doesn't shapeshift. I'm thinking Average but I could be talked into Good.

Duergar: Dwarf+ to a druid. Great.

Gillmen: Wisdom penalty, swimming ability which a druid can duplicate or surpass easily, the only saving grace is the Con bonus. There's nothing they provide which another race doesn't do better for a druid. Terrible.

Grippli: Actually really good, with a wisdom bonus, small size, 30' speed, a nice favored class option, and a feat which can give a 10' reach tongue for delivering touch attacks. Some possibly/situationally nice other racial traits too. A strength penalty isn't enough to stop this being Great.

Kitsune: Nothing terribly useful to a druid, not a lot harmful, just the strength penalty. I guess you could have fun using the favoured class option for diplomancy; with wild empathy a druid can have a use for Charisma, they just usually don't bother. High end of Poor.

Merfolk: One class which can get away with not having legs naturally is a druid. The stat mods are undeniably nice even if they don't include a Wisdom bonus. On the other hand their other racial bonuses aren't so useful. Probably Good, unless a lot of the campaign actually is underwater, which IMO shouldn't be the general situation the race is rated for.

Nagaji: Decent melee types and bonuses to skills the druid likes. Maybe the low end of Good or high Average, unless their racial druid archetype is on the table. In the latter case they'd have to be Great. I don't think we'll ever rate every archetype for every race; how should we do this?

Samsaran: The caster druid, if Mystic Past Life is allowed. Great assuming that.

Strix: Flying, darkvision and handy skill bonuses are nice but not amazing for a druid. You might be able to save a feat by not taking Natural Spell ... just into Good IMO.

Suli: Solid melee types, Good.

Svirfneblin: Wisdom penalty, slow and weak, but about a thousand other bonuses. The Stoneseer alt racial trait should be useful to a druid. I'm calling them Great.

Vanara: Wisdom bonus, no relevant penalties, the tail is handy (no pun intended). Good again?

Vishkanya: Wisdom penalty, the poison tricks are marginally useful; Poor.

Wayang: Wisdom penalty, slow, druids don't do shadow magic or negative energy so no useful bonus there. Terrible.

I'd forgotten how long this takes ...

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-10, 09:19 PM

@Andvare: I agree on your estimation of the gnome and halfling. I assume that you're going to finish up the featured races, so I'll just move onto the Uncommon races. *Heh, looks like I wasn't alone in this*

Changling Average Even with a bonus to wisdom, this race is still average. It has a penalty to con, and absolutely putrid racial abilities (and terrible alternate options) outside of that, and no good favored class options.

Duergar Good Close to being great. If you really don't care about taming other animals, this probably wouldn't be a bad choice.

Gillmen Terrible Bad ability scores, and bad alternate racial traits.

Grippli Great Could be convinced to make them green, but I really like the ability scores, and some of the racial traits, including the one to make jump checks without a running start. There is also the tasty favored class option to get a +1/2 bonus to concentration checks.

Kitsune Terrible Bad ability scores for a Druid are not helped by a shapechange trait that Druids can emulate with their key class feature.

Merfolk Good They don't have a bonus to wisdom, but Druids have one of the easiest ways around Mefolks' bad land move speed. Decent alternate favored class ability.

Nagaji Poor Similar to the Suli, with weaker racial abilities.

Samsaran Good A bonus to Wisdom and Mystic past life for all of your favorite cleric spells.

Strix PoorTheir big advantage is that they can fly. A druid can turn into a bird for that.

Suli Poor Or maybe average. They do have some useful racial abilities with a bonus to strength for melee druids, and the handy alternate ability of Icewalk.

Svirfneblin AverageIt's a whole lot of penalties for some semi decent abilities and a bonus to wisdom.

Vanara Great Good ability scores and a good set of alternate racial traits and fluff for being a Druid all works in this race's favor. It also has an favored class option to add a +1/2 bonus to wild empathy checks (and handle animal checks) which you normally can't manually increase.

VishkanyaTerrible Penalty to wisdom, and no abilities that are particularly helpful for you.

Wayangs Terrible Deja Vu

Andvare

2013-10-10, 09:38 PM

Slowpokes :smalltongue:

avr

2013-10-10, 09:39 PM

Ninja and ninja'd.

Reading other's thoughts I'll rerate Suli and Strix as Average but not Poor. Yes, Druids can turn into birds; but they can also trade wildshape out for a domain, and sometimes having hands and flying at the same time is very useful.

The poison tricks of a Vishkanya are mostly irrelevant, but you could make a character which milks snakes/vermin for poison; it's a small niche but a niche enough to make Poor IMO.

Yeah, OK, Vanara are Great.

Svirfneblin aren't ever going to be melee brutes or even marvelous at animal handling, but they have great defensive abilities, a wisdom bonus and +1 caster level to earth spells. They really are Great caster Druids.

Andvare

2013-10-10, 09:52 PM

No, druids can trade their animal companion out for a domain, not their wildshape. They all, including all the archetypes, get some form of that.

Edit: Also, you can get hands and flying with elemental form (and probably other methods), though that does come later.
But you are right, hands + flying is nice.

Andvare

2013-10-10, 09:59 PM

BTW, it is good to see that we rate the races so close that the difference is negligible.
To me it says that whatever small disagreements that persists will not matter in the end, as it is more due to personal preferences/experience more than broad understanding of the races.

avr

2013-10-10, 10:24 PM

Yeah. It's interesting to see others' reasoning too.

Misremembered the wild shape thing. There actually are archetypes which trade away the ability to wild shape into something which can fly BTW, but since they're racially specific they're irrelevant to the Strix. Feral Child (human), Naga Aspirant (nagaji) and Treesinger (elf) if you're interested.

So, archetypes; I really wasn't sure what to do with the Nagaji Naga Aspirant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-nagaji/naga-aspirant-druid-naga) druid archetype. At low-mid levels the spells it adds are really, really useful. Like Mystic Past Life useful. Since I don't think we'll ever get around to rating every archetype separately, should they be included in the base rating?

Andvare

2013-10-10, 10:30 PM

I'd say we rate them separately, as a given game might not allow certain archetypes.
It would also make it easier to make a PFS version of this guide.

avr

2013-10-11, 10:57 PM

The odds'n'ends races:

Monkey Goblin: Just no. Terrible.

Android: Immunities, darkvision & perception, no real penalties. Int bonus so being a skilled druid is possible. Experience with Eberron Warforged suggests that some people will get into the flavour of being a robot who loves nature.Average.

Ghoran: Immunities & defensive bonuses, including a Constitution bonus. With an Int penalty you're not going to have all the skills Andvare likes though. The SLAs are quite useless to a druid and Light dependency means you'll need to pack a wand of lesser restoration on some adventures. Poor.

Lashunta: Neither sex has the stats a druid wants. Telepathy and mind reading and the stat bonuses they do get are just enough to make them Poor rather than Terrible IMO.

avr

2013-10-11, 11:18 PM

Psionic races.

Blue: For those who really like skilled druids. Poor.

Dromite: Small and slow, generally unhelpful stat bonuses. If you want scent as a druid, either wildshape, use your companion or summon something; their ability is not useful to a druid. Terrible.

Duergar (Psionic): Like Dwarves these make Great druids.

Elan: Chosen stat bonus & resistance is still nice but there's nothing else especially exciting here. Good.

Half-Giant: Strength and Wisdom bonuses and powerful build, now you're talking. Great.

Maenad: Chosen stat bonus, OK, but there's nothing else important to druids. Be a human instead. Average.

Ophiduan: Dexterity & Wisdom bonuses and a 1 point of natural armour are Good. You have better uses for your buffing actions than their once a day for one minute bite.

Xeph: Poor druid stats. I suspect between their burst of speed ability, druid wildshape and buying the Flyby Attack feat you could do a decent skirmisher so Poor rather than any worse.

Andvare

2013-10-14, 03:25 PM

On to Fighters.

While it is possible to make a dex based fighter, the first many levels are very hard. If you are using encumbrance rules, you aren't even able to carry your armour without a decent strength, so unless you create a mid-high level fighter, you are still stuck with a very MAD character. This means that strength is very much needed for all fighter types at low levels. I rate races fir use at all levels, so strength is needed for all fighters.

All the standard races favoured class options are ****e.
Dwarf. Good. Their stat mods are good, but not great, especially the lack of a strength bonus is hurting. However, their specials are great. Hardy is awesome, and really shores up the main weakness of the fighter, and alone moves the dwarf close to great. While the slow and steady doesn't help the vanilla fighter much, it helps a lot of the archetypes. I'd rate the racial archetype as good.
Elf. Poor. Penalty to constitution, that smarts, and a bonus to intelligence doesn't help much. Very few specials that helps the fighter class. Not a great choice.
Gnome. Terrible. Small size is both a blessing and a curse, the better to hit and AC is nice, but the lower damage and penalty to CMB/CMD isn't. The penalty to strength is horrible, and a bonus to a dumpstat is useless.
Half-elf. Great. Floating bonus is as always great. They also get some useful specials on top. Close to good though.
Half-orc. Great. Some as half-elf.
Halfling. Terrible. Mostly like the gnome, except their stat mods are slightly worse, and their specials are much better. Would be quite good, if it weren't for that penalty to strength. Actually makes a great dex fighter if made at mid to high levels.
Human. Great. Floating bonus is great. And I do not agree in the least that the extra feat is useless, you can always use more, and several types of fighters will find it *very* useful, pretty much any fighter type that doesn't go for the two-handed greatsword. And even then, you can always use it for two traits, an initiative bonus or several skill focus feats. If you don't want that, the alternate racial traits can trade it for a lot of great stuff, like a bonus to two abilities. The alternate racial traits makes this the best amongst the standard races.

avr

2013-10-15, 12:33 AM

Fighters IMO need to do one or both of two things; lots of damage or locking down an enemy. Staying alive is important, but only after achieving one of these.

You need strength for the first until at least mid levels, but either the weapon finesse feat or the agile maneuvers feat for the second. The minimum feats - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Weapon Finesse - can be acquired by 2nd level by a fighter of any race. So, as much as a fighter is viable, a dexterity-based fighter is viable. IMHO.

My ratings:

Dwarf: Various defensive bonuses, an alt racial trait swaps one of them for a +2 to bull rush and overrun. Overrun makes you eat a lot of AoOs but it does knock opponents prone. With this and the racial archetype it pushes them up to Great to me.

Elf: Nothing terribly useful; the intelligence bonus does make combat expertise that little bit easier to get, but the constitution penalty hurts a lot. A dex bonus on a medium size creature is useful for a dex-based fighter but not unusual. Poor.

Gnome: Nothing to help with either important role for a fighter. Nothing. Terrible.

Half-elf: Floating bonus stat; basically the same as +2 strength, right? Has an alt racial trait which lets them use wands and low-level scrolls without multiclassing or getting UMD which saves a little money as a fighter. Free skill focus makes Eldritch Heritage cheap to get.Good.

Halfling: +2 Dex isn't enough to break out of Terrible for a small fighter.

Half-orc: Floating +2 Str bonus, darkvision. Ferocity isn't too useful but it can be traded for any of several mildly useful bonuses or a bite attack which makes them Great fighters going the damage route.

Human: Human fighters get +2 Str. One extra feat at level 1 is good at low levels but vanishes into insignificance rapidly as a fighter gains levels, one extra skill is flavour rather than power to a fighter. I can't see the great attraction in the replacement traits aside from gifted which lets you replace everything a human gets for +2 to any 2 stats. Outside core you can probably get your favourite stat array without sacrificing all racial features. Humans make Average fighters IMO, though almost Good.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-15, 01:04 AM

Note on Lockdown builds and fighters. Random things, but Agile maneuvers is completely unnecessary unless you are going for grapples. You can make trip, disarm, and sunder attempts with a dex modifier as the modifier as long as you have weapon finesse.

I'm also not sure that dex is the best way to build a lockdown fighter (or if lockdown is really possible in PF for that matter), but I do know that it is necessary for AOOs. Dex is necessary for archery, so it is still an important stat for fighters.

I think we can all agree that either int or charisma are the dump stats. If you aren't going combat expertise (damn that feat), you don't need int, and most fighters dump charisma.

avr

2013-10-15, 03:02 AM

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-15, 08:58 AM

I misspoke. Strength based fighters with a bit of dexterity can do lockdown as much as any fighter, certainly. Dex based fighters are limited to lockdown as their main tactic at the start and maybe into their mid-level career (TWF & a couple of agile weapons & preferably Piranha Strike as well.)

Archery is a backup tool for many fighters but there are at least 3 classes better at it, more if you include self-buffing casters. I wouldn't consider it a major part of a fighter's rating.Meh, the Archery fighter isn't that bad. Trick shot it as least interesting, if unusable at higher levels because of how CMD scales. Also, even if fighters aren't the best archery, they also aren't the best melee tools (Barbarians/Paladins), and archery is still probably the best style for raw damage in Pathfinder.

Felyndiira

2013-10-15, 09:04 AM

About **** time!

Edit: I was about to enter into a rant about SKR and stupid rulings, but decided not to. Not the place.

This is a little late, but I personally think that is the worst ruling PF could have made.

Half-orcs are, of course, not the problem. Half-elf, on the other hand, is already awesome for any CHA class due to skill focus leading naturally to eldritch heritage. Adding human oracle AFCs on top.of that makes them better than humans for most CHA classes.

That's not it, though. The ruling reversed the earlier ruling that AFCs are not "effects". This means that Aasimar can now take scion of humanity and gain the use of human AFCs, or add the racial heritage feat and take the AFC of any humanoid race.

Yeah, Aasimar is now an automatic great for pretty much every class now.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-15, 09:28 AM

This is a little late, but I personally think that is the worst ruling PF could have made.

Half-orcs are, of course, not the problem. Half-elf, on the other hand, is already awesome for any CHA class due to skill focus leading naturally to eldritch heritage. Adding human oracle AFCs on top.of that makes them better than humans for most CHA classes.Actually, humans have a better option for skill focus than any other race. They can trade in their bonus feat for 3 bonus skill focus feats. Half-elves are just nicer because they don't need racial heritage for it.

I'll take this ruling and the issues with Aasimar (which are deeper than this ruling, IMO) over the previous one that was quite pants on head to me.

Also, I'll start doing the featured races in a bit. Opinions on core races so far.

I would actually push the Halfling up to poor (barely), and would debate moving elves down to terrible. If I'm going to be dex based, I'd rather be hard to hit than medium size after a few levels. Also, many of the elven bonuses are not helpful to fighters.

Dwarves I agree should be at Good. I'd much rather have a bonus to dex or strength than the bonus to con. Their abilities lend them towards a defensive/bulwark build, which is normally not the best way to play a fighter.

Also, Humans are Great. The extra skill point is incredibly useful, as it lets you dump intelligence but still have enough points for perception and intimidate. I've actually found the extra feat to be very useful for getting you through feat-intensive builds much faster or giving you the option to use exotic weapons, etc.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-15, 10:39 AM

Featured Races for Fighter. I'll go ahead and say that my two big pet peeves are going to be no bonus to strength or dex, and penalties to wisdom or con. Also, I'm not really sure this is a class that should be looked at seperately from archetypes because in most cases those archetypes are just a deeper specialization into a combat style that the fighter already partakes in.

E.G. "Halflings make decent archer fighters." 200 posts later. Turns out they make good "Archer" archetype fighters, too.

Aasimar: Great Shocker.

Catfolk Average to Poor Something interesting could be done with the natural weapons, but that's probably about it. These guys make better rogues than fighters.

Dhampir: The standard race is Terrible, but with the alternate heritage options the race moves to Average

Drow: Terrible SR, penalty to con, bad SLAs.

Fetchling: Poor They make half-decent rogueish-fighters, but that's about it.

Goblin Poor I feel like I'm being generous. They have little to nothing to offer your fighter.

Hobgoblin Good Trade out their +4 bonus to stealth for a +4 bonus to indimidate and you'll be okay.

Ifrit Average Although certainly not great, you could pick much worse than these guys.

Kobolds Terrible I'd like to introduce you to the worst.

Orc Good Even with the +4 to strength. The -2 to all mental stats is really unhelpful if you want to go intimidate or lockdown, and makes a big weakness (mind control) even worse.

Oread Great Unsurprisingly, the rock person makes a really good fighter. Great raw stats, great alternate racial traits, and an outsider so "X person" can't be used on you.

Ratfolk Terrible Int and dex bonuses are meaningless when you can't do lockdown because of size limitations and a slow speed.

Sylph Terrible I could maybe be convinced to move them to poor if anyone thinks they would make good archers or lockdown builds, but that's all I can see them being good at.

Tengu Average If there is a class that would benefit from being treated as proficient with every sword published, it's probably the fighter. The penalty to con is really frustrating.

Tiefling Good or Great. The standard race is not bad, and the alternate heritages only make it even better.

Undine Poor Slightly more interesting in an aquatic/amphibious campaign.

Andvare

2013-10-15, 09:26 PM

AVR, I think you are staring yourself blind on that extra feat, which is less useful for a fighter. The human is still a floating +2 chassis, which is great, and the ability to get +2str and +2 dex, which no other race I can think off can, is amazing for archers. Yeah, fighters aren't the best archers, probably only the third best, but as pointed out, they aren't actually the best damage dealers either. (plus some other stuff Squirrel_Dude pointed out)
I firmly believe that they are great, but good is okay for me. Average is just odd, a bite attack and darkvision does not make for two tiers above the human. Three different tiers all with the same chassis, that is rather inconsistent, few specials take any race up a tier, and practically noone takes them up two.

I wouldn't place Dhampirs as average, that Negative Energy Affinity is just craptastic. The only place a Dhampir has, is in a group of only Dhampirs.
Halfling as poor is fine with me. It is a border case.
Elves don't have a penalty to strength, and that con penalty is somewhat negated by the dex bonus. Not a great race for sure, but doesn't warrant a terrible rating IMHO.

Uncommon races.

Changeling. Poor. A penalty to con, and bonusses to stuff that doesn't matter much. Claws don't work with any weapon, as the hands aren't free. Hulking Changeling and darkvision brings them up to poor, but only just. It is such a shame this race wasn't designed with a bit more love, so much potential wasted.
Duergar. Good. The dwarf on acid. This is the ultimate in defensive race fighters. Too bad that defence doesn't work as well as offence. Close to great due to those fantastic immunities though.
Gillmen. Poor. I think I have voiced my displeasure about this race before. There is just so little that they bring to the table, that their aquatic friends doesn't. Poor because they have a +2 con, and they might have a tiny niche as melee types in an amphibious campaign, but I'd rather go with the Merfolk then.
Grippli. Terrible. Small, weak. Nets are good, but they aren't that good.
Kitsune. Average? Pounce is great, and the bite attack helps, but strength is needed. Decent dex based fighters though.
Merfolk. ? Somewhere in the range of average to great. Dex and con bonus, natural armour, and tailless makes you immune to trip. Without strongtail, they aren't great on land though.
Nagaji. Great. Strength bonus, natural armour, bonus against mind-effects, low-light vision, all useful for a fighter. I would have preferred that the int and cha mods were switched though.
Samsarans. Terrible. A con penalty, and nothing to show for it. Not a melee race.
Strix. Great, The fly speed is awesome as always. The stat mods are okay, the penalty to charisma doesn't hurt, and dex is nice. Plus they got all those nice specials on top.
Suli. Great. Strength bonus, energy resistance, energy damage bonus. There is a lot of stuff the fighter can use here.
Svirfneblin. Terrible. Penalty to strength and a high spell resistance, which is really bad for a class that needs buffs.
Vanara. Average. A dex bonus does help, but there aren't a lot of stuff here. Close to poor.
Vishkanya. Average. Dex bonus. Poison is actually somewhat useful, though not a great race.
Wayangs. Average. Small, but without a strength bonus. Decent archers.

ArcanistSupreme

2013-10-16, 12:22 AM

Sorry I haven't been updating. I took a much-needed break from the internet, and I forgot about this thread. I'll get back on updating things over the next few days.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-20, 05:21 PM

Are we all satisfied with Fighter? I forgot which core class alphabetically follows it. Up next is the Monk.

So for this class, the ability score priorities are strength, dexterity, con, and wisdom right, with charisma being the only true dump stat? Dex and Str being the two primary bonuses, but they don't want any penalties to con or Wisdom. I expect to see lots of Average and Poor with this class.

Core Races:
Dwarf Good The slow speed is eventually negated by monk powers, and they make good Zen Archers, but being a skirmisher is very difficult. A solid stat array. Awful alternate favored class bonus, but some decent alternate alternate racial traits.

Elf Terrible Penalty to con, and a bonus to a stat you don't care too much about. Bad alternate favored class. Unhelpful alternate racial traits.

Gnome Terrible See Elf, but now small size.

Halfling Average How are these guys average, even with the ability score bonuses to things you don't care about? Becaus they get a good favored class option, good alternate racial traits, and standard racial traits that give you bonuses to the stuff you care about.

Half-Elf Great Advantages include getting the good (see: as good as other standard weapons) monk weapons with Ancestral Arms, a floating +2 bonus,

Half-Orc Good First time that a floating bonus has not be been blue for me. Orc Ferocity is nice, but that's all the class offers you. Its weapon proficiencies, bonus to intimidate, and other racial traits are not nice. It does have the halflings good favored class option, though.

Human Great Suprirse. Bonus Skill point is good for someone MAD, as is the option to trade it in for an additional +2 ability score bonus. If you're going to be Quiggong (and most are), then their alternate favored class option might also be handy.

Squirrel_Dude

2013-10-21, 11:23 AM

Also, before we go too much further, we may want to reassess any previous judgements about half-elves and half-orcs, with the knowledge that they have access to the human and orc favored class bonuses AFAIK. That seems to have been the impact of the last ruling.

Don't know if it will change too much, but humans normally do have some very good favored class bonuses.