How important is improved grab for a grapple build?

[CyberThread]

How important is improved grab for a grapple build?

(not improved grapple)

[eggynack]

I'd say very. The action cost if you fail to grapple makes it really problematic if you miss, and the potential gains aren't high enough to be worth that risk. Fortunately, it's not that hard an ability to pick up.

[Chronos]

There's an even bigger advantage to it: It makes the grapple rules simpler. That's a huge benefit at the table, as it means less fumbling around in the rule books to figure out what to roll, and more time spent having fun.

[Vin Robinson]

All it does is it changes your touch attack to initiate into a regular attack with some damage on top.

It also states that you can only improved grab creatures at least one size category smaller than you, which can be problematic for some builds. Though the best way to get good at grappling is to become larger.

I would say the most important thing is some sort of constrict attack, that one really simplifies the rules.

[Deca4531]

its a pretty easy thing to get with the Scorpions Grasp (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/scorpions-grasp--2524/) feat. and if your going for a grappling build you will probably end up large at some point anyway. I like it since you can get an atk in before you start a grapple instead of taking your turn just to grapple them.

[Scow2]

... I am still trying to figure out how my Bear Totem barbarian is grabbing things with his greataxe.

[Deca4531]

... I am still trying to figure out how my Bear Totem barbarian is grabbing things with his greataxe.

Easy, he thunks the blade into their chest, then uses momentum to swing them around and in close for a bear hug ;)

[Equinox]

I'd say very. The action cost if you fail to grapple makes it really problematic if you miss, and the potential gains aren't high enough to be worth that risk. Fortunately, it's not that hard an ability to pick up.Our group's Barbarian does well without Improved Grab. Against pretty much all enemies, he only misses touch attacks on a natural '1'.

[eggynack]

Our group's Barbarian does well without Improved Grab. Against pretty much all enemies, he only misses touch attacks on a natural '1'.
I wasn't talking about missing the touch attack. That part's fine. I'm comparing rolling regular style, getting a hit, then attempting a grapple, with rolling touch style, and attempting a grapple. In the first instance, you get damage, so the cost for missing on the grapple isn't complete failure. It is my opinion that grapple is quite weak, so it should generally be the secondary rather than primary impact of your efforts.

[Chronos]

In general, most monsters are either really good at grappling, or really bad, with little middle ground. If you're facing off against the latter, grappling is great; not so much against the former.

When I played a druid, for the whole first adventure, we were mostly facing humanoids, and I got used to grappling a lot, because it was effective. Then we fought a shambling mound. Oops.

[Deca4531]

In general, most monsters are either really good at grappling, or really bad, with little middle ground. If you're facing off against the latter, grappling is great; not so much against the former.

When I played a druid, for the whole first adventure, we were mostly facing humanoids, and I got used to grappling a lot, because it was effective. Then we fought a shambling mound. Oops.

yeah that's very true, most things you fight will either me a pushover to grapple or something you should never step into the ring with lol.

[Gwendol]

Moderatly important. You hit against AC, not touch, which is typically harder to hit. Attack bonus isn't necessarily changing.

[Equinox]

I have the same experience as Chronos. Things we fight fall into two categories:
1. Have only a very small chance to win an opposed grapple check, and auto-lose when the barbarian grapples them; this includes spellcasters, archers, and human(oid) warriors armed with a greatsword. For those enemies, some added damage from Improved Grab is nice, but hardly important. It's just "win more".
2. Big monsters you don't want to grapple. And Improved Grab would not have worked on them anyway, so you just attack and contend yourself to dealing HP damage.

In summary, Improved Grab is nice, but I wouldn't spend too many resources on it. In particular, if you have to choose between Spirit Lion and Spirit Bear totems, I'd grab the big cat over the bear.

[Deca4531]

I have the same experience as Chronos. Things we fight fall into two categories:
1. Have only a very small chance to win an opposed grapple check, and auto-lose when the barbarian grapples them; this includes spellcasters, archers, and human(oid) warriors armed with a greatsword. For those enemies, some added damage from Improved Grab is nice, but hardly important. It's just "win more".
2. Big monsters you don't want to grapple. And Improved Grab would not have worked on them anyway, so you just attack and contend yourself to dealing HP damage.

In summary, Improved Grab is nice, but I wouldn't spend too many resources on it. In particular, if you have to choose between Spirit Lion and Spirit Bear totems, I'd grab the big cat over the bear.

I would probably go wolf for the imp trip over lion with the free run feat. but for me I see bear totem to be more bang for your buck all around.

[Equinox]

I would probably go wolf for the imp trip over lion with the free run feat. but for me I see bear totem to be more bang for your buck all around.I was talking about Spirit Lion. Not just plain Lion, which sucks rock bottom.

[Deca4531]

I was talking about Spirit Lion. Not just plain Lion, which sucks rock bottom.

Ah, the complete champion one, now I see. yeah pounce can be a very useful abilty to be sure.

[JanusJones]

its a pretty easy thing to get with the Scorpions Grasp (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/scorpions-grasp--2524/) feat. and if your going for a grappling build you will probably end up large at some point anyway. I like it since you can get an atk in before you start a grapple instead of taking your turn just to grapple them.

I find Improved Grab indispensable for a grapple build, but Scorpion's Grasp, alas, does not actually grant Improved Grab.

Why?

Multigrab, Improved Multigrab, and Barbed Stinger.

Multigrab and Improved Multigrab allow your Bear Totem (spiritual, that is, and the only reason to ever ever NOT get Lion Totem for pounce!) barbarian to put an enemy in a headlock and proceed to drag him around the battlefield, occasionally bashing him on the head. No loss of Dex to AC, and you can keep doing whatever you like.

Read: auto-caster neutralization WITHOUT losing combat effectiveness.

Now there's the issue of Barbed Stinger.

With two levels of Totemist and a chakra-bound Wormtail Belt, you have a pointy stabbity tail.

So what?

Well, Barbed Stinger is only available to those who have Improved Grab, and it does something every serious grappler should really, REALLY love: you may grapple targets of ANY SIZE with your stinger, and your stinger deals damage every round you keep them stabbed (and poison!).

I like this on a Bear Totem (spiritual, again) Barb 1/Totemist 4/Totem Rager. The idea is simple: pump essentia into Girallon Arms, which offer a +2 to grapple per point of essentia. Chakra-bind Wormtail belt. When available, arm-bind Kraken Mantle for another, stacking bonus to grapple, and Sphinx Claws to your hands to allow for pounce.

Use on an Orc, for decent Strength and an appropriate favored class.

You now have four arms to carry grappled targets around with, alongside your tail, which keeps another impaled.

If you really want to get silly, use the Diabolus from Dragon Mag for a Barbed Stinger from first - and TWO stinging tails later on.

The best part is that it's all thematically aligned - you're a Scion of the Scorpion, baby. :smallsmile:

[Akal Saris]

Looks like a really fun build, JanusJones :)

[123456789blaaa]

I find Improved Grab indispensable for a grapple build, but Scorpion's Grasp, alas, does not actually grant Improved Grab.

Why?

Multigrab, Improved Multigrab, and Barbed Stinger.

Multigrab and Improved Multigrab allow your Bear Totem (spiritual, that is, and the only reason to ever ever NOT get Lion Totem for pounce!) barbarian to put an enemy in a headlock and proceed to drag him around the battlefield, occasionally bashing him on the head. No loss of Dex to AC, and you can keep doing whatever you like.

Read: auto-caster neutralization WITHOUT losing combat effectiveness.

Now there's the issue of Barbed Stinger.

With two levels of Totemist and a chakra-bound Wormtail Belt, you have a pointy stabbity tail.

So what?

Well, Barbed Stinger is only available to those who have Improved Grab, and it does something every serious grappler should really, REALLY love: you may grapple targets of ANY SIZE with your stinger, and your stinger deals damage every round you keep them stabbed (and poison!).

I like this on a Bear Totem (spiritual, again) Barb 1/Totemist 4/Totem Rager. The idea is simple: pump essentia into Girallon Arms, which offer a +2 to grapple per point of essentia. Chakra-bind Wormtail belt. When available, arm-bind Kraken Mantle for another, stacking bonus to grapple, and Sphinx Claws to your hands to allow for pounce.

Use on an Orc, for decent Strength and an appropriate favored class.

You now have four arms to carry grappled targets around with, alongside your tail, which keeps another impaled.

If you really want to get silly, use the Diabolus from Dragon Mag for a Barbed Stinger from first - and TWO stinging tails later on.

The best part is that it's all thematically aligned - you're a Scion of the Scorpion, baby. :smallsmile:

Sadly Diabolus does not have a sting attack by RAW so Barbed Stinger won't work with it.

[CyberThread]

What about a hobbit with a sword named sting?

Orc: How that stung

Hobbit: Aye it was sure a .....stinger


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