[3.5] Sell me a Build?

[Coidzor]

So I've got an upcoming D&D 3.5 with a very few things from Pathfinder being backported in and Fax Celestis's The How-It-Should-Be Paladin, v2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551) replacing regular paladins, Pathfinder Sorcerers instead of 3.5 Sorcerers, and monks being replaced by an as yet unmentioned homebrew, IIRC.

I believe there's a few other houserules in play as well, but they're not particularly relevant other than a ban on ToB for reasons that I'm not going to go into.

Aside from one, maybe two other players who have done this before, the others are completely new to D&D 3.5 or even to tabletop roleplaying games. Which is why I was actually brought into the game, to help shepherd them along with the other more experienced guy(s).

The other guy I know for sure has played the game before is looking to go Shadowbane Inquisitor from what I can recall, though I don't know if he's fully reviewed Fax's Paladin rewrite.

I've also got two of the complete neophytes with bards, one wanting to focus on illusions as far as I can tell, and the other interested in pumping up inspire courage and buffing/support. The others are playing as a cleric of unknown deity and a druid, both of unknown build/priorities. There's still one other guy who is presumably playing but hasn't specified what he's going to be playing yet.

I directed the player interested in illusions to some resources on those as well as pointing both of the players looking at bard in the direction of a couple of handbooks and the inspire courage optimization handbook. Waiting to hear back from the cleric and druid players for what they're building towards.

I was initially thinking I'd just do a toned down GOD wizard in order to help shepherd the group and then ramp up as I re-familiarized myself with playing a fullcaster since it's been a while for me and I never did it that often anyway. Then I realized, as I was considering how to go about building him and coming up with a backstory, that I just couldn't be arsed right now and didn't feel like I would find it fun at this present time.

Then I started considering making up for the lack of a character who is a dedicated melee combatant by building a crusader before remembering that it was off the table.

So right now I'm considering learning how to Binder or finally building that Totemist I'd had on the backburner for ages, but I'm not really feeling anything very strongly right now. I was considering looking into combining a demoralizing build with a tripping build on a martial base as well, I suppose.


tl;dr Feeling rather uninspired, any suggestions other than GOD to help avoid massive attrition of new players' characters and maybe even show off part of the system to them indirectly without seeming like a showboating ****?

edit: It's an online, skype/roll20 game, so I'm shying away from summoning/minionmancy due to logistical concerns as well as the number of players.

Also, I'm about sick to death of clerics of pelor with a melee focus and nightsticks are out, sorry.

edit2: Hm, I guess I really was tired when I posted this. Starting at Level 1. Not sure how long the game will last. I think either it'll crash and burn within levels 1-3 or we'll make it to level 10 or 12, I think.

edit3: Everyone's getting a free bonus feat at first level ala human, including humans, and one free perma-max-rank'd knowledge, profession, or craft skill.

Races with a level adjustment of +1 can be played as if they don’t have the LA. Higher LAs can be bought off.
No half-skill points. Putting ranks in cross-class skills still get you a full point.
IMPORTANT: All players receive one bonus feat. This means Human characters get two.
All players choose one Knowledge, Craft, OR Profession. You are considered having max skill ranks for your level in this skill, free of skill points. Please use this to fluff your characters!
Any bonus damage received from abilities such as Sneak Attack (and all similar types that rely on striking anatomical weak points) can be used on creatures such as Undead, provided they do have a discernible anatomy. You only get half-damage; any feats or class skills that would normally grant you half now grant you full.
The feat “Dodge” uses the Pathfinder version, where it’s a flat +1 Dodge bonus anytime you’re not flatfooted.
The feats “Point Blank Shot” and “Precise Shot” are combined into one and function as both for any prerequisites.
The feats “Toughness” and “Improved Toughness” are combined into simply “Toughness”, wherein you receive a flat +3 bonus to your HP and a bonus +1 HP every level. This functions as both for any prerequisites.
The feat “Ride-by-Attack” is altered so that you must literally ride-by your enemy, as differentiated from a charge.
Skills: Disable Device grants a +2 synergy bonus to Pick Locks.
A rule that basically says "no diplomancy, please," as diplomacy is largely dependent upon fiat.
Two! Two Flaws! Ah-Ah-Ah!



edit4: So, current party lineup is Inspire Courage/archer bard, melee cleric(probably not DMM Persist) of Fharlanghn, druid focusing primarily on his casting, the aforementioned illusion-focused bard who may get swayed to beguiler (depending), a Mantle Paladin who is looking at multiclassing into Rogue and then Shadowbane Inquisitor, and a Rogue who is going to be TWF.

[Fyermind]

The illusion dude might really enjoy looking into the race changelings and the class beguiler. Those fit "I'm an illusionist with cool powers" much better than bard without feeling like "I'm a wizard who decided only to do things that don't actually effect reality."

[nedz]

More idea of what you actually want to play would be helpful, but I realise that that's the question.

Some ideas:

A melee orientated Cleric perhaps ?
Lots of support/buff options and an ethos to provide direction/leadership.

Or a summoner, to leverage the Bards and make them feel useful ?

[Coidzor]

More idea of what you actually want to play would be helpful, but I realise that that's the question.

A melee orientated Cleric perhaps ?
Lots of support/buff options and an ethos to provide direction/leadership.

Or a summoner, to leverage the Bards and make them feel useful ?

Well, right now the main thing is that I don't want to have to carefully weigh my options round-by-round as I sometimes fall into the trap of doing when playing a full-caster, or do as much homework as is necessary for a wizard or artificer. I do kind of want to hit things until they're dead, I suppose, so I'm definitely favoring a melee combat role over ranged damage dealing.

That's what I've got the most experience with from a string of far too many melee clerics of pelor in a row due to a bad spat of campaigns that kept crashing or changing every few weeks for a stretch of time that went on for a bit too long, but I've just done it too many times to really feel like it without doing something new like going Bone Knight or Ruby Knight Vindicator, which aren't really on the table, sadly. Granted, I wasn't going whole-hog into melee. Hm.

I should have mentioned that in the OP, sorry. Between the medium (using a combination of Skype and roll20.net) and the number of players, I'm trying to stay away from a summoning/necromancy/minionmancy focused character, though it would capitalize upon the bard. Partially because if the druid is going to have a summoning focus, two summoners really would be a bit much.


The illusion dude might really enjoy looking into the race changelings and the class beguiler. Those fit "I'm an illusionist with cool powers" much better than bard without feeling like "I'm a wizard who decided only to do things that don't actually effect reality."

*facepalm* I knew there was something I was forgetting! Thank you! :smallsmile:

[A_S]

What level is the game starting at, and how long do you expect it to last?

How do you feel about gishes? (I think they're the most fun to build and play, but not everybody does.)

Any thoughts on what's making you unenthusiastic about Binder and Totemist?

[Emperor Tippy]

You could do some fun things with a Psion and those tend to be alot lighter on the book keeping than wizards, clerics, or druids.

A bit of gold investment can also let you pick up various spells that are useful for one reason or another.

Hmm, I'm messing around with a quite nifty ninja/scout/assassin esk build that could work for you.

What level are you starting at, what stat generation method are you using, and are all sources available?

[Coidzor]

You could do some fun things with a Psion and those tend to be alot lighter on the book keeping than wizards, clerics, or druids.

A bit of gold investment can also let you pick up various spells that are useful for one reason or another.

Hmm, I'm messing around with a quite nifty ninja/scout/assassin esk build that could work for you.

What level are you starting at, what stat generation method are you using, and are all sources available?

I do keep meaning to finish learning psionics...

Sounds like fun.

Level 1 start. My choice between rolling 4d6 best 3 and re-rolling if I get below a 7 on any score or point buy where stats can be lowered to 7. Most Wizards sources are available, Dragon Magazine is available on a case-by-case basis, Pathfinder stuff can get backported in if it won't cause too much issue with the new players and I'm extra persuasive or it tickles his fancy, Tome of Battle is the only hard and fast verboten item I can think of, and even then he still allows, IIRC, Snap Kick and Superior Unarmed Strike.


What level is the game starting at, and how long do you expect it to last?

How do you feel about gishes? (I think they're the most fun to build and play, but not everybody does.)

Any thoughts on what's making you unenthusiastic about Binder and Totemist?

Starting at level 1, ideally going to level 10-12, I'd say. Risk of game crashing though, so I don't want to have to wait a long time for the build to pay off.

I'm favorable towards gishes, though I don't much like building towards one from level 1. I could probably talk him into letting me backport Magus though. Or give playing a duskblade a go.

I think it's partially because I'm just feeling tired and rather depressed in general, but mostly because they're not really grabbing me and insisting that I play them.

[avr]

Binder is an easy gish type. A few magic abilities some of which will buff you in combat, and if the powers of one vestige aren't working for you it's easy to swap it out the next day. The PrC Knight of the Sacred Seal makes for a better gish but locks you into one vestige until quite high levels IIRC.

Despite the skill bonuses they make poor skillmonkeys with 2+INT skill points and the need for melee stats and maybe CHA as well. Don't fall into the trap of assuming those skill bonuses matter much to a single-classed binder.

[A_S]

Yeah, in the 1-10 range I probably wouldn't go with a gish unless Magus were on the table. Duskblade seems like it would be underpowered after the first few levels in your group, if the others you mentioned know what they're doing.

Psionics are always cool, and there's plenty of good ways to get gishy with them, which come online earlier and more smoothly than arcane gishes. Could do some kind of Ardent multiclass critter.

Any character concepts that grab you from a roleplaying standpoint that you can try to get excited about first and then flesh out mechanically? Do you know anything about your DM's setting/story or the other characters that might help?

[Elric VIII]

Well, there's always the Thicket of Blades/Stand Still Crusader. Heal them up, keep them safe from the big guys, etc.

If you don't want to go for the insane damage route, you can weaken yourself a bit. Middle aged or old template and Intuitive Attack (BoED). Start with a few levels in Paladin and taking Serenity (Dragon comp) if you want to bolster your saves a bit. Play a Wis-focused battle-hardened vetran that uses his wits instead of relying only on brawn.

Your skills might be a bit strained, but you don't really need to max out all of them, especially the knowledges. You can grab Educated at level 1 to get +2 to 2 knowledge skills (Eberron version, I think) and have them always on your skill list.

There's no good way to get Thicket of Blades without a feat in a timely manner, so here's my build:

Human - 1 flaw
Feat Rogue 1: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Educated, Stand Still
Crusader 1: -
Feat Rogue 2: Knowledge Devotion, Improved Trip, Collector of Stories (skill trick)
Crusader 2: -
Crusader 3: -
Crusader 4: Martial Stance
Crusader 5:
Crusader 6:
Crusader 7: Power Attack
Crusader 8-18: Stuff.

With at least 13 Int you are getting 6 skill points per level of Crusader and 10 for Rogue. Dedicate 2 of those each level to upping knowledge skills (maxing them out with the first Rogue level) and you've still got at least 4 points to spend on your melee dude staples.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, the assassin idea is out if you are only going that far (at least unless you want to basically just be a factotum).

Gray Elf Psion (Telepath).

Max Int and Dex, everything else is secondary.

Spend your first level feats on Faerie Mysteries Initiate (to make up for your abysmal Con) and, probably, a Psicrystal.

Fifth level take the telepath alternate class feature (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) to gain telepathy. 6th level take Mindbender.

Crystal Shard should be your primary low level attack power.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warforged Psion, Adamantine Body, Psiforged Body and Thick Skinned if flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are allowed. Psicrystal Affinity for a Hero, Nimble, Single-Minded, or even Bully psicrystal from your Psion 1 feat.

Go Shaper if you want nothing but power in the form of Astral Constructs, Psionic Minor Creation plus racial poison immunity cheese, and Psionic Repair Damage. I'd probably go Kineticist as it gets quite a few fun powers and it's lacking the extremely strong choices that will overlap other classes. Energy Missile can target opponents' weapons, armor, shields, divine focus, spell component pouch, etc. making it superb for neutralizing opponents without killing them so your party can enjoy mopping up. You'll want to spend your Psion 5 feat on Expanded Knowledge: Psionic Repair Damage in this case.

Get max ranks in Intimidate, plus the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and pick up Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark if possible. Your psicrystal gets actual hit dice which come with skill points and feats, so it too can get Never Outnumbered but it has to be threatening an opponent to use demoralize and it gets a massive size penalty to the check. Get your adamantine body made +1 Fearsome, from Drow of the Underdark. I wouldn't bother trying to demoralize anything until you can do better than a standard action to make one opponent Shaken for one round.

Take Vigor and Share Pain, keep Share Pain continually active on your psicrystal so you take half damage from all sources (and then subtract your DR from it). Your Psicrystal's Hardness 8 will reduce every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much regardless of the original attack's type. Keep the Psicrystal in a compartment on your person so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and can never target it directly or hit it with area effects. You can even give it a Healing Belt which it can use to heal you during combat. When you manifest Vigor you can share it with the Psicrystal just like any other buff, giving you a substantial hp cushion.

Consider taking Midnight Dodge or Soulforged Body (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39584) and Midnight Augmentation to use with Bestow Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bestowPower.htm). That reduces the augmentation cost from three powerpoints to one powerpoint per two additional points bestowed, so when you spend five powerpoints on it you can give yourself back six powerpoints, and it only goes up from there.

There's an extremely helpful Psion Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=10238.0) that you should look at for more ideas.

[nedz]

OK, so we are looking at a melee based character which is not a full caster.

Do you like skilful characters ?
Maybe a combat orientated rogue ?

Or take a look at the recent Zinc Chef Rangers perhaps ?
Combat, skills and some casting.

[Amphetryon]

Warforged Psion, Adamantine Body, Psiforged Body and Thick Skinned if flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are allowed. Psicrystal Affinity for a Hero, Nimble, Single-Minded, or even Bully psicrystal from your Psion 1 feat.

Go Shaper if you want nothing but power in the form of Astral Constructs, Psionic Minor Creation plus racial poison immunity cheese, and Psionic Repair Damage. I'd probably go Kineticist as it gets quite a few fun powers and it's lacking the extremely strong choices that will overlap other classes. Energy Missile can target opponents' weapons, armor, shields, divine focus, spell component pouch, etc. making it superb for neutralizing opponents without killing them so your party can enjoy mopping up. You'll want to spend your Psion 5 feat on Expanded Knowledge: Psionic Repair Damage in this case.

Get max ranks in Intimidate, plus the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and pick up Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark if possible. Your psicrystal gets actual hit dice which come with skill points and feats, so it too can get Never Outnumbered but it has to be threatening an opponent to use demoralize and it gets a massive size penalty to the check. Get your adamantine body made +1 Fearsome, from Drow of the Underdark. I wouldn't bother trying to demoralize anything until you can do better than a standard action to make one opponent Shaken for one round.

Take Vigor and Share Pain, keep Share Pain continually active on your psicrystal so you take half damage from all sources (and then subtract your DR from it). Your Psicrystal's Hardness 8 will reduce every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much regardless of the original attack's type. Keep the Psicrystal in a compartment on your person so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and can never target it directly or hit it with area effects. You can even give it a Healing Belt which it can use to heal you during combat. When you manifest Vigor you can share it with the Psicrystal just like any other buff, giving you a substantial hp cushion.

Consider taking Midnight Dodge or Soulforged Body (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39584) and Midnight Augmentation to use with Bestow Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bestowPower.htm). That reduces the augmentation cost from three powerpoints to one powerpoint per two additional points bestowed, so when you spend five powerpoints on it you can give yourself back six powerpoints, and it only goes up from there.

There's an extremely helpful Psion Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=10238.0) that you should look at for more ideas.
Warforged Shaper is an excellent suggestion, allowing you to remain exceptionally sturdy while calling as little or as much attention to yourself as the situation requires, including having the requisite PANIC buttons if things get dire and the other casters in the party can't figure out how to solve the problem.

[molten_dragon]

I've got an awesome shadowcraft mage build. It's yours for $50.

[Unbalanced]

I played a Goliath Psychic Warrior at one point for a little bit and he was a lot of fun. Pretty bad ass too :P

[Unbalanced]

I played a Goliath Psychic Warrior at one point for a little bit and he was a lot of fun. Pretty bad ass too :P

Just to assist if you wish:

PSYCHIC WARRIOR HANDBOOK
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162701

[nedz]

There's always the Warforged Scout Scout :smallamused:

[Captnq]

Ya know, Been looking at the Artificer lately.

Did you know that an artificer when crafting can UMD to pretend he has ANY spell? Every single spell at your disposal to make a scroll, wand or potion. Initiate of Cyric only spell? Not a problem.

Now, in theory, you could craft say... a scroll of wish at 1st level. There are a few things holding you back, mostly minimum Caster level requirements. However, there are ways to boost caster level. Modified Abbots Staff, for example. Ioun Stone. Various spells. You come with a +2 to your caster level when crafting. There is a TO of crafting 9th level scrolls by 9th level, although I won't bother telling you, it's unlikely to pass any DM's approval, and the skill check is horrific.

If you want to show the rest of the party how cool the game is, then be the guy who outfits them with all the cool toys. You are showing off the system by GIVING them cool crap to have fun with. Speaking of... Spell Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg72093#msg72093), Weapon Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9053.msg183871#msg183871).

[Coidzor]

OK, so we are looking at a melee based character which is not a full caster.

Do you like skilful characters ?
Maybe a combat orientated rogue ?

Or take a look at the recent Zinc Chef Rangers perhaps ?
Combat, skills and some casting.

I enjoy having stuff to do outside of combat, yeah. The rogue/pally/shadowbane inquisitor seems like he'll be our main source of skillfulness aside from the two bards who may divvy up face skills or may not. Not likely to run into situations where we lack the ability to roll knowledge since the DM was considering giving us each one free max rank'd knowledge skill that was different per character.

My first character in a campaign that didn't instantly crash and burn was an attempt at combining the Horizon Tripper with a little bit of trapmonkeying which didn't turn out so well due to my inexperience. Granted, there were still a few times when he shined because he was at least pretty good at tripping humanoid-shaped opponents and helping keep them from tearing the party to pieces when we were only barely able to whittle away at them due to unexpected DR and the like... I suppose I might finally be over the embarrassment enough to try doing it properly.

Zinc Saucier Rangers, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298478) you say? *goes to check*


Take Vigor and Share Pain, keep Share Pain continually active on your psicrystal so you take half damage from all sources (and then subtract your DR from it). Your Psicrystal's Hardness 8 will reduce every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much regardless of the original attack's type.

Y'know, I've heard about this trick over and over as I've read around and I don't think I ever actually had the bit about the psicrystal's hardness sink in as part of how it worked. Thank you. :smallsmile::smallredface:

Also thank you for the rest of the post, but this especially.


I've got an awesome shadowcraft mage build. It's yours for $50.

A shadowcraft mage build that's not a killer gnome (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/930001)? Color me intrigued, though that might be more of interest to introduce to the player who is already interested in focusing on illusions than something to play myself.

edit:
Gray Elf Psion (Telepath).

Max Int and Dex, everything else is secondary.

Spend your first level feats on Faerie Mysteries Initiate (to make up for your abysmal Con) and, probably, a Psicrystal.

Fifth level take the telepath alternate class feature (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) to gain telepathy. 6th level take Mindbender.

Crystal Shard should be your primary low level attack power.

I can't say why, but you've managed to intrigue me.

Why 5' per ML telepathy from telepath and 100' telepathy from mindbender though? I don't quite see the benefit except for being able to take mindsight as one's 6th level feat? :smallconfused:

[Emperor Tippy]

I can't say why, but you've managed to intrigue me.

Why 5' per ML telepathy from telepath and 100' telepathy from mindbender though? I don't quite see the benefit except for being able to take mindsight as one's 6th level feat? :smallconfused:

I meant Mindsight, I was sleepy and typed it wrong.

[Coidzor]

I meant Mindsight, I was sleepy and typed it wrong.

Ah, ok. Thank you. :smallsmile:


So, right now due to the way things have progressed, most of the other players have finalized on what they're playing with the sole exception of myself and the player interested in illusions and bards. I'm feeling increasingly like trying out Incarnum for the first time, with my only real question being whether to do it as a dip on another build or do a focused Totemist build. I think I'll build a psion as a backup though.

Also it came out that we've got up to 2 flaws on the table, so if I take flaws, I have have 5 feats at 1st level as a human, 6 if I take a class level that gives a bonus feat, like Fighter. 1 Human Bonus feat, 1 1st level feat, 1 General Bonus Feat, 2 Flaw Feats, and maybe something like a Fighter Bonus Feat. I also get free LA+1... Not sure what I could grab if I went Warforged, thinking Human would get Quasilycanthrope, or break out a Goliath. Half-minotaur would probably be overkill, even if being large would be nice. Feral might swing. Divine Minion would be nice if I went with a wildshaper with a dip into Totemist, I suppose.

Draconic is probably off the table, as are silverbrow humans due to the way dragons work in that setting(essentially unheard of/isolated to a single continent/possibly sealed). I think Kobold with or without dragonwrought might be the only way to get at the dragon soulmelds. Though, if I can get Draconic that'd open up Draconic Darfellan for Bite, 2 Claws, a tail from dragon tail feat, and aberration blood>deepspawn+other for 2 tentacles adding up to 6 natural attacks at 1st level without shaping any melds. Granted, with draconic soulmelds I'd be arguably able to get two claws and a tail attack without any chakra binds getting used up as I recall.

Skills... Skills seem pretty much well and taken care of between the bard, the maybe-bard-maybe-beguiler, the rogue, and the Pally/Rogue

It was pointed out to me that I could start off as a trip-build at level one with that many feats with some to spare to move on to a more... refined goal. Not really seeing what I could do with all of those feats as a Totemist 1 though.

Oh, yeah, and I may be able to talk my DM into allowing share spells as a feat for a wild cohort, would Wild Cohort > Share Spells > Share Soulmeld be worth that feat investment, bearing in mind the increased feats at first level? I've never been able to remember if the effects from the chakra binds would carry over or just the base effect of shaping the soulmeld + essentia invested into it.

[Ruethgar]

If you want incarnum, I would suggest Chameleon 2. Use the floating feat to get Shape Soulmeld, shape it and leave it there permanently then the next day get rid of the feat for another Shape Soulmeld until you have maxed out the number you can have shaped. A two level totemist dip is nice for the bind and the essentia. This frees up most of the rest of your build to focus on other things if you want. Of course you could take the Chameleon to heart to be able to fill several roles with Factotum as well.

[Kane0]

Warlock/Binder/HFW: 50gp
Incarnate: 150gp
Warlock/Incarnate: Priceless

Edit: or Beguiler, or Dread Necro.

[RaviStrife]

Hmmm...you said you were looking at a wizard at first, but want a lower bookkeeping build...


Ever look at Anima Mage? It's a Theurge of Binding and arcane you can enter as early as fifth level by using Improved Binding (feat). Class features include full casting/binding progression, free metamagic 3xs daily, a capstone of a silent/stilled/IMMEDIATE action spell 1/daily.

My favorite build involves flavoring the binds as another kind of summon added onto a conjurer specialist for immediate magic (teleport). Binds provide endurance, spellcasting provides the crunch.

You can easily start play as a Binder (for extra HP) with second level binds via improved binding. Far as I can tell, the sweetspot comes online at 6th with the Paimon Bind complimenting your new third level spells.

Example: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=549113