Is Tarquin the leader of his group at all?

[Quild]

For the first time it struck me that Tarquin could be desilusionnal about himself leading "his team" because of the way Miron and Laurin answers to him and the fact that Tarquin can't bend them to his will.

I seem to remember Malack calling him a fool for something about Nale, but can't find where. Still, I found that on strip 724 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html) Malack is not fond of Tarquin's personnality. More interesting, in #822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) it seems to be the key word business (embolded) which stops Malack.

We know their motto is "Business before pleasure" and that Malack thought his lifespan would allow him to rule long after Tarquin's death which could mean that Malack considers himself as the leader too. Letting Tarquin think he leads everything could be a minor inconvenience to Malack, Miron, Lorin, Jacinda and the other guy for acquiring themselves power and wealth. While in truth the group may have no leader at all but only business partners assembled for a greater evil.

I also thinks that it goes well with Tarquin's fall in public mind. Sure, he still was succesful in "secretely" ruling a big part of the continent, but he may not be the leader he thinks he is.

What do you think about that?

[Roland Itiative]

I do think he's the leader, though, the group being Evil and all, his leadership is not as strong as, say, Roy's in the Order of the Stick, so they need a "protocol" to work well together, they'll not just blindly follow their leader, whoever he (or she) is.

What's going on right now aligns very well with the "business before pleasure" mentality. If defeating the Order was business, Miron and Laurin would be all over it, but it turns out it is pleasure, so they don't feel any obligation of helping Tarquin as they have nothing to gain from it.

I also find it interesting that the different members of the team are starting to show vastly different motivations. Malack had the long run in sight, Miron is all about the money, and Laurin seems to be more Neutral and just subscribe to the idea that the empires are more peaceful than the regular state of affairs. This makes me even more interested in knowing them better.

[Cerussite]

For the first time it struck me that Tarquin could be desilusionnal about himself leading "his team" because of the way Miron and Laurin answers to him and the fact that Tarquin can't bend them to his will.

I seem to remember Malack calling him a fool for something about Nale, but can't find where. Still, I found that on strip 724 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html) Malack is not fond of Tarquin's personnality. More interesting, in #822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) it seems to be the key word business (embolded) which stops Malack.

We know their motto is "Business before pleasure" and that Malack thought his lifespan would allow him to rule long after Tarquin's death which could mean that Malack considers himself as the leader too. Letting Tarquin think he leads everything could be a minor inconvenience to Malack, Miron, Lorin, Jacinda and the other guy for acquiring themselves power and wealth. While in truth the group may have no leader at all but only business partners assembled for a greater evil.

I also thinks that it goes well with Tarquin's fall in public mind. Sure, he still was succesful in "secretely" ruling a big part of the continent, but he may not be the leader he thinks he is.

What do you think about that?

I think "being a leader" is different from bending your team to do your every wish. Just as Roy doesn't control the actions of everyone in the OOtS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html). Not every Evil leader has to be like Xykon, coercing his minions through superior firepower.

[Leolo]

At least the good adventuring party that wanted to stop him said: "We have to stop tarquin and his party". So from the outside he looks like a leader. Plus those whole plan was his idea, and he pointed out that his plan is what brings money in Mirons purse.

And his allies are there - obviously after he called for them regarding something that is more or less his own business.

So I'd say yes he is the leader. But he is not in a position to simple force the others - he is the leader because he is the best for this job.

[Chessgeek]

He is the leader, but that does not mean that the rest of his group will blindly follow his self-centered and wasteful orders. Leading a party is different than controlling their lives.

Cerussite: That link is less applicable now, as I'm sure the rest of the order would help an individual with a side quest if it gave them a better chance against Xykon now that it is clear just how much of a threat he is. That said, nobody would jump off of a bridge just because Roy told them too. Except maybe Elan.

[Trillium]

It may be that Tarq is not the leader.


1) We know that he's the leader from him only.
2) Miron and Laurin not only disobey him - they don't even show respect, proper to a Lawful Evil team leader.
3) Though Tarq claims to have invented the three-kingdom scheme, he slips that it was Malack who invited him to be General. "Buy one High Priest, get one General free." - so the plan was probably Malack's.
4) His pitiful attempts to become a legend are too petty for a leader of a consortium that rules half of the continent.

[Leolo]

1) We know that he's the leader from him only.

No, the good adventuring group in the flashback thinks the same. And Ian.

3) Though Tarq claims to have invented the three-kingdom scheme, he slips that it was Malack who invited him to be General. "Buy one High Priest, get one General free." - so the plan was probably Malack's.


As much as i understand this statement it just says how he officially get hired by the official leader of this country. But - we do know that this "leader" never had true power.

Plus nothing in this statement says that this was malacks idea, or that Malack invited Tarquin. It just means they work together.

[War-Wren]

Much like everything in Tarquin's life, he doesn't seem to let the 'minor' details get in the way of his story. As far as he is concerned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), he's the boss and the man with the plan... therefore it's his team.

Whether the others still view it that way is another story.

If nothing else the other members of 'Tarquin's team' are allowed to vote/say on important matters, like Nale being spared Malack's revenge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html), but I think that Tarquin still sees it as his gang... albeit one where the members can answer back to their leader... oh wait, that's every D&D party I've ever run with! :smalltongue:

[johnbragg]

I think "being a leader" is different from bending your team to do your every wish. Just as Roy doesn't control the actions of everyone in the OOtS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html). Not every Evil leader has to be like Xykon, coercing his minions through superior firepower.

Right. "Team Tarquin" is a partnership, perhaps even more so than the Order of the STick (there were signed contracts way back when.) Tarquin, as the Man With the Plan and probably the battlefield tactician, is first among equals, but they are his partners, not his minions.

Which may have been part of the problem with Nale--"first among equals" is a very tough balance to pull off for father-and-son, even if they aren't both delusional sociopaths.

Yes, his allies responded to his summons. But that makes sense--if you were them, spread out over three empires, wouldn't you want a "bat-signal" protocol if something epic-level turned up, as it tends to do in fantasy worlds?

If Miron had sent up the bat-signal that Merlin's Mustache Comb or whatever had been located in a secret dungeon in his kingdom, do you think Tarquin would have gotten himself teleported in? I do.

[Trillium]

1) We know that he's the leader from him only.

No, the good adventuring group in the flashback thinks the same. And Ian.

3) Though Tarq claims to have invented the three-kingdom scheme, he slips that it was Malack who invited him to be General. "Buy one High Priest, get one General free." - so the plan was probably Malack's.


As much as i understand this statement it just says how he officially get hired by the official leader of this country. But - we do know that this "leader" never had true power.

Plus nothing in this statement says that this was malacks idea, or that Malack invited Tarquin. It just means they work together.

Flashback is recounted by Tarquin, so we have no proof it is truth.

"Malack was an old adventuring pal of mine. He found me and offered me a job as Chief Warlord to his new master" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

[Taelas]

Flashback is recounted by Tarquin, so we have no proof it is truth.

"Malack was an old adventuring pal of mine. He found me and offered me a job as Chief Warlord to his new master" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

Which doesn't mean Tarquin didn't come up with the plan. :smallconfused:

If Tarquin came up with it after getting the job offer from Malack, which is how I always understood it, then there is no conflict whatsoever.

[Leolo]

Flashback is recounted by Tarquin, so we have no proof it is truth.


Flashback is flashback. Tarquin just quotes it. It is nothing Tarquin has said to the order, so how could it be untrue?

[nocker]

Tarquin's a fighter type, in a party full of spellcasters (catgirl whose name was revealed but I don't remember apart). Evil and/or Callous Neutral spellcasters. Quite obviously the party dynamic there is pretty much different from Xykon's band. Tarquin can't threaten his mates. If he's "leader" it's because he comes with usually workable plans and solves conflicts, and not because he crushed the others beneath his figurative heels (no matter what he may like to think).

Also, since nobody from his party seems to be a Charisma based caster, he probably also doubled as the Team Face, which may help others to think on his group as "Tarquin's Party".

Nothing of that implies the least degree of obedience or reverence from his peers. Tarquin's party was shown in #921 to be a circle, not a pyramid.

[Psyren]

Tarquin is in charge. He's not the most powerful member of his team (any more than Roy is on his) but he's the "man with the plan" that has steered his group through the dramatic and political minefield of their adventuring days to become the powerhouses they are now. They see no reason to oppose him because (a) they're friends and (b) his advice has been pretty good so far - in addition to his narrative mastery, Tarquin (like Roy) probably has the best combination of Int/Wis/Cha on his team.

[johnbragg]

albeit one where the members can answer back to their leader... oh wait, that's every D&D party I've ever run with! :smalltongue:

I played with _one_ exception. I was the brick fighter and a Lawful Neutral raised in an army camp (son of the weaponsmith), and so was the self-appointed enforcer for the leader appointed by the trading/salvage company who was paying us.

[pendell]

I agree with Bragg. Tarquin is the team leader, but is a "first among equals" leader, not "Darth Vader demanding unquestioning obedience from his minions" leader. Myrkul and Shatterstone are very close to his own level. He can't compel their obedience but must persuade them. He could only command them if they were lawful types who had sworn obedience to him, and it's pretty clear that's not what they did.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Trillium]

I agree with Bragg. Tarquin is the team leader, but is a "first among equals" leader, not "Darth Vader demanding unquestioning obedience from his minions" leader. Myrkul and Shatterstone are very close to his own level. He can't compel their obedience but must persuade them. He could only command them if they were lawful types who had sworn obedience to him, and it's pretty clear that's not what they did.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Myrkul? Tarquin's got a Faerun god of the DeaD working for him? Ouch, that's guys more than badass!

[Roland Itiative]

Actually, I wonder if they are even Lawful. Malack seemed to be (trying to keep true to Durkon's last wish, even though he didn't even formally accept it), but Miron specifically doesn't sound very Lawful to me. I doubt any of them are very chaotic (Tarquin "doesn't deal with loose cannons" and all that), but they may be Neutral, or slightly Chaotic. Not Thog-level Chaotic, but, for the lack of a better Evil comparison, Haley-level Chaotic. Technically the same as far as rules are concerned, but very different in practice.

[Sunken Valley]

Just because one person is the leader doesn't mean the others blindly follow him around, regardless of whether they are evil or not. Any of the other OOTS would reign Roy in if he did a stupid plan. Even Elan.

[F.Harr]

I think "being a leader" is different from bending your team to do your every wish. Just as Roy doesn't control the actions of everyone in the OOtS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html). Not every Evil leader has to be like Xykon, coercing his minions through superior firepower.


He is the leader, but that does not mean that the rest of his group will blindly follow his self-centered and wasteful orders. Leading a party is different than controlling their lives.

Cerussite: That link is less applicable now, as I'm sure the rest of the order would help an individual with a side quest if it gave them a better chance against Xykon now that it is clear just how much of a threat he is. That said, nobody would jump off of a bridge just because Roy told them too. Except maybe Elan.


Tarquin's a fighter type, in a party full of spellcasters (catgirl whose name was revealed but I don't remember apart). Evil and/or Callous Neutral spellcasters. Quite obviously the party dynamic there is pretty much different from Xykon's band. Tarquin can't threaten his mates. If he's "leader" it's because he comes with usually workable plans and solves conflicts, and not because he crushed the others beneath his figurative heels (no matter what he may like to think).

Also, since nobody from his party seems to be a Charisma based caster, he probably also doubled as the Team Face, which may help others to think on his group as "Tarquin's Party".

Nothing of that implies the least degree of obedience or reverence from his peers. Tarquin's party was shown in #921 to be a circle, not a pyramid.

I think what this all comes down to is that Tarquin, like real leaders everywhere, can only lead so far as his people are willing to follow. When they sit down and refuse to go further, he can convince, cajole, threaten or kill some folks to get them to stand up and move again, but it still comes down to their choice. They have to let him lead and these two guys are not going to let him lead them into a pointless battle to benefit his stupid kid.

[Nilan8888]

There's a couple things to consider:

1. This is an adventuring party, not the military. 'Orders' are a lot more optional. There is no law forcing these people to follow one another, just their own code of ethics (or lack thereof).

2. Tarquin's Team is in a very different place than the Order of the Stick. The Order is still in the peak of its adventuring days (which funny enough has been less than two years when you think about it). Tarquin's team's active adventuring days are behind them. They all go long periods without seeing one another and it's been a long time since they went into battle alongside each another.

Sure, Tarquin is the 'leader'. But Tarquin was never a leader to them like he is to his troops -- he was more like Roy is with the OOTS. And even given that, he's no longer an active leader: he probably just gets respect for his leadership in the past. But Miron and Laurin, at least, might not need him as much as they once did.

[Quild]

Just because one person is the leader doesn't mean the others blindly follow him around, regardless of whether they are evil or not. Any of the other OOTS would reign Roy in if he did a stupid plan. Even Elan.

Still, what he is asking is not that much asking for them.

Miron is suggesting that having Jacinda killing Roy would be a better idea than this waste of “resources”. Yet, he is not willing to make the job himself since he just doesn’t care. Why doesn’t he care about this waste of resource but still makes a comment about it, I don’t know. But I’m quite sure he is not Kelemvor and that he is able to act even if their’s no profit at key. In this case, it would serve their plan not to lose this regiment. Plus, Miron may not agree with Tarquin on the fact that killing Elan’s friend would make Elan a bigger threat.

Nothing really stops them from helping Tarquin and they seem to consider him as a fool. Not only isn’t he a leader as Roy is, but he really doesn’t seem to have their respect. Sure, they’re mad about what happened to Malack, but that doesn’t explain everything. Laurin even took some liberty disintegrating Nale’s corpse while she is herself a mother.

[chainik]

Right. "Team Tarquin" is a partnership, perhaps even more so than the Order of the Stick (there were signed contracts way back when.) Tarquin, as the Man With the Plan and probably the battlefield tactician, is first among equals, but they are his partners, not his minions.

I think this is clearly the case. In my head-cannon, I've always thought of them as the Two-Dimensional Cabal, not "Team Tarquin".

[War-Wren]

I think this is clearly the case. In my head-cannon, I've always thought of them as the Two-Dimensional Cabal, not "Team Tarquin".

Agreed.

This makes the most sense given how they operate these days. At the beginning Tarquin may have been the leader (and he probably still considers himself at least a little bit in charge!), but as they operate in pairs to keep the three kingdoms in a state of almost constant war, they are more likely to each think of each other as much more equal in power after all these years.

Also, on an unrelated and slightly naughty plot change... I got promoted from Pixie a few posts ago and didn't realise it! Yay! Look at my hairy feet!! :smalltongue:

Ok I'm done, sorry, back to the thread! :smallwink:

[littlebum2002]

I'm really glad we had this look into Tarquin's party. After all, many people WERE wondering why none of them were helping fight the order, and I for one was wondering how their group dynamic was even supposed to work. But now I remember: They are people. They don't have to blindly follow their leader's stupid orders.

This strip made me appreciate Tarquin's party a lot more, and made me understand Tarquin a lot more. I wouldn't be surprised if he started stomping his feet and whining 'I'm the LEADER! That means you have to LISTEN to me!"

[Cerussite]

Still, what he is asking is not that much asking for them.

Miron is suggesting that having Jacinda killing Roy would be a better idea than this waste of “resources”. Yet, he is not willing to make the job himself since he just doesn’t care. Why doesn’t he care about this waste of resource but still makes a comment about it, I don’t know. But I’m quite sure he is not Kelemvor and that he is able to act even if their’s no profit at key. In this case, it would serve their plan not to lose this regiment. Plus, Miron may not agree with Tarquin on the fact that killing Elan’s friend would make Elan a bigger threat.

Nothing really stops them from helping Tarquin and they seem to consider him as a fool. Not only isn’t he a leader as Roy is, but he really doesn’t seem to have their respect. Sure, they’re mad about what happened to Malack, but that doesn’t explain everything. Laurin even took some liberty disintegrating Nale’s corpse while she is herself a mother.

A few points:

1. Miron sees nothing to gain from going in alone in that battle. Tarquin's implying that he's just going to stand there (as he said, villains should let others do the dirty work for them most of the time) while Miron goes in, and, given that Laurin's stated she's not going to indulge Tarquin (for very good personal reasons), casting in that situation would make him a high-profile target for a party of 6 high-level adventurers, one of which is early-epic: Definitely on the pointy side of the pointy/yummy scale.

2. Considering Nale had been killed by Tarquin himself, I think it's a fair bet that Laurin would assume Tarquin wanted him dead.

[BlackDragonKing]

Well, Tarquin's group, from what I can observe, is a non-dysfunctional evil adventuring party. That's not the same as them being his subordinates.

These guys are his partners, and when you get right down to it, they're either his best friends in the world or the closest people like them get to friends. Roy doesn't command absolute respect or obedience from the Order, and it's not like Haley, his #2, doesn't make fun of his Lawful foibles all the time or V or Belkar never expresses disinterest in some of the things Roy thinks they ought to do.

Team Tarquin's a team, and unlike Team Evil, they don't all secretly despise each other. That doesn't mean that Tarquin's buddies feel obligated to do whatever he says or think snarking at his fascination with tropes is out-of-bounds. Tarquin and Malack had differences, too, but they talked them out when they got intense. It's just a different way for an Evil party to operate than we're used to, and really, is that so surprising considering what we have to compare it with?

Team Evil is a dictatorship based on fear; Xykon has control solely because Redcloak's can't get rid of him without taking an insane risk to the plan, but Redcloak and Xykon are tugging that balance constantly, and one of them IS going to be the death of the other in some form by the end of this. Tarquin's team are all about as powerful as him or possibly more so, since most of them can cast. Tarquin's in charge because he's got the plan, not because he'll kill them if they don't do every little thing he asks for.

The Linear Guild functioned, barely, because it was a collection of idiots willing to put Nale's delusions of grandeur and petty grudges ahead of their own ambitions and safety; Sabine followed all Nale's orders, no matter how dumb, because she's in love with him, and Thog stays loyal because he's too dumb not to be. Z's inclusion is debatable, but it's likely he'd have joined any team that gave him another shot at revenge on V, and he already knew Nale and his pay. The others either aren't alive long enough to realize Nale's a terrible leader or DID realize it and ditched him. Every member of Team Tarquin's a powerful and ambitious adventurer in their own right, not kobold fodder or an orc looking for someone to point them at things to smash. It would be ludicrous if they functioned like the Linear Guild OR Team Evil.

[nocker]

This strip made me appreciate Tarquin's party a lot more, and made me understand Tarquin a lot more. I wouldn't be surprised if he started stomping his feet and whining 'I'm the LEADER! That means you have to LISTEN to me!"

Tarquin's brow doesn't even form the V that shows that a OotS character is pissed off while he's being figuratively shot down. After two of his mates outright reject to go along his whims his attitude is an annoyed "really, you people..."

Tarquin throwing a tantrum (or behaving in an unsightly manner) seems to be completely opposite to what he stands for.

[sengmeng]

He is the leader of a non-good adventuring party. Roy already complained once about his GOOD party needing cajoling and begging to go on a side-quest. Tarquin's team is like herding cats, and he is definitely the cat-herder. He's just not perfect at it, and he lost this time.

[Spoomeister]

Another angle: consider that their entire long-running scheme, the way they maintain power and operate, is to manipulate entire nations to pit them against each other.

If they're able to do that, they're certainly capable of having all the non-Tarquin people say "you know what, let Tarquin think he's in charge... we can offload all the figurehead, petty bureaucrat, playing-emperor stuff to him, to keep us freer to do exactly what we want when we want... also paints a nice pretty target if someone is hunting for us as a group".

Tarkie is simply a more competant, ruthless and driven Elan.

[littlebum2002]

Tarquin's brow doesn't even form the V that shows that a OotS character is pissed off while he's being figuratively shot down. After two of his mates outright reject to go along his whims his attitude is an annoyed "really, you people..."

Tarquin throwing a tantrum (or behaving in an unsightly manner) seems to be completely opposite to what he stands for.

I guess I'm putting too much Elan into Tarquin. But the point still stands: He can't control them like he can control the people in his empire, and he's not happy about it. I think in that party he may have been the Leader In Name Only.

[BlackDragonKing]

Another angle: consider that their entire long-running scheme, the way they maintain power and operate, is to manipulate entire nations to pit them against each other.

If they're able to do that, they're certainly capable of having all the non-Tarquin people say "you know what, let Tarquin think he's in charge... we can offload all the figurehead, petty bureaucrat, playing-emperor stuff to him, to keep us freer to do exactly what we want when we want... also paints a nice pretty target if someone is hunting for us as a group".

Tarkie is simply a more competant, ruthless and driven Elan.

Actually, Tarquin's scheme basically means none of them is ever a target at any point in the absorption of the continent except to people like the Order and Ian who manage to put it all together.

They've got three massive targets that they operate behind in the "emperors" they control, and they swap those out and form different teams every now and then to keep things fresh.

I think Tarquin is definitely BOTH the Roy and the Elan of the group; they'd all be a gang of glorified tomb-robbers without his plan, but that doesn't mean whatever he says goes. They're friends, not subordinates; we wouldn't question that Roy leads the Order if Haley found a plan of his ridiculous and told him so. Tarquin's teammates got where they are today by working together with him, they just don't feel obligated to endanger themselves when they think Tarquin's just indulging his amusing eccentricity again. I would bet ten gold pieces they would kill the **** out of anyone that murdered Tarquin in revenge if it came to that; Tarquin's one of them, whether they operate without him or not, and Laurin would in all likelihood annihilate the guy who killed Tarquin the same way she reacted to Malack's demise.

[Amphiox]

In all the interactions we have seen between Tarquin and his team, even if we exclude the ones in flashbacks which Tarquin could be narrating unreliably, we see that it is always Tarquin taking initiative and the others responding to him. He is the one suggesting actions, making proposals, and the others are reacting to that, agreeing or disagreeing.

Not once have we seen any other member of the team make a suggestion to Tarquin and have Tarquin follow through.

This dynamic suggests to me that Tarquin is indeed the leader of the team. But, ironically, he's not leading in the typical lawful evil fashion (ie by command and power and implicit threat), but in a more chaotic fashion, with charisma and persuasion. His authority over the others seems to extend only so far as he is able to convince them to go along with him, but although we see that sometimes they may not go along with him on specific points, none of them have demonstrated any attempt or desire to challenge his authority in general.

It is a style of leadership that is in fact not uncommon in small social groups up to the band level. It even has a name, "The Big Man". It is usually not effective and cannot be applied to social groups any larger than a handful of people, but it is still a valid leadership style.

[kickassfrog]

Sure, Tarquin is the 'leader'. But Tarquin was never a leader to them like he is to his troops -- he was more like Roy is with the OOTS. And even given that, he's no longer an active leader: he probably just gets respect for his leadership in the past. But Miron and Laurin, at least, might not need him as much as they once did.

Actually, with Malack dead, they need him as the teammate manipulating the Empire of Blood. Also, I think he's still mainly orchestrating the grand conquest. I think they're only talking back to him because he's losing sight of the main goal and squandering the better part of his army to make his son a better adventurer somehow.

[WarKirby]

IT seems to me that nobody is really the leader. I see them more like the board of directors of some evil corporation.

Tarquin may have a bit more of a share than the others, but not enough to force them into anything. They're all fairly equal, and good friends. I think laurin is poking fun at him, as much as anything.

I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them saw more profit in helping than hindering the OOTS, and overruled tarquin ^^

[BlackDragonKing]

In all the interactions we have seen between Tarquin and his team, even if we exclude the ones in flashbacks which Tarquin could be narrating unreliably, we see that it is always Tarquin taking initiative and the others responding to him. He is the one suggesting actions, making proposals, and the others are reacting to that, agreeing or disagreeing.

Not once have we seen any other member of the team make a suggestion to Tarquin and have Tarquin follow through.

This dynamic suggests to me that Tarquin is indeed the leader of the team. But, ironically, he's not leading in the typical lawful evil fashion (ie by command and power and implicit threat), but in a more chaotic fashion, with charisma and persuasion. His authority over the others seems to extend only so far as he is able to convince them to go along with him, but although we see that sometimes they may not go along with him on specific points, none of them have demonstrated any attempt or desire to challenge his authority in general.

It is a style of leadership that is in fact not uncommon in small social groups up to the band level. It even has a name, "The Big Man". It is usually not effective and cannot be applied to social groups any larger than a handful of people, but it is still a valid leadership style.

Well, it IS a fairly effective and really, really common leadership style in adventuring parties, which is what Team Tarquin were before they got into the Conquest game.

Tarquin's the Big Boss Man with his legions, who will do what he says without question or regret it swiftly, but I imagine he's more First Among Equals with his party, which requires this sort of approach. Tarquin leads by having good ideas and befriending his party members, who are as powerful or possibly a little more than him. It's arguably the single best way to lead an Evil party, as the mix of camaraderie and pragmatism means it's at least twice as likely everyone in the party will actually work together in that arrangement instead of one of them deciding to betray all the others the second it sounds profitable.

[Fish]

I get the strong feeling that Tarquin really wants to be leader, but isn't. Everything about him suggests that he's tried to push Elan and Nale into those positions. Is he living vicariously through them? Is he compensating for his own egotistical needs?

[BlackDragonKing]

I get the strong feeling that Tarquin really wants to be leader, but isn't. Everything about him suggests that he's tried to push Elan and Nale into those positions. Is he living vicariously through them? Is he compensating for his own egotistical needs?

Why would these preclude Tarquin from being the leader in his own right? He's a massive egotist even with all the genuine power he's amassed, and at this point the most important thing to him is spicing up that power with a really good story to keep it exciting.

His teammates just have different priorities, that's all. Laurin doesn't seem too into this, but it's looking out for her friends and her daughter, so she doesn't need to get more into what she's doing. Miron's just in it for the money as far as we can tell, so he's probably even more inclined to keep things blandly safe and profitable than Tarquin or Laurin.

I think Tarquin is leading, but his teammates treat his genre-savvy adrenaline-junkie side as something they just have to work around and let him get it out of his system than anything important.

[F.Harr]

Well, Tarquin's group, from what I can observe, is a non-dysfunctional evil adventuring party. That's not the same as them being his subordinates.

These guys are his partners, and when you get right down to it, they're either his best friends in the world or the closest people like them get to friends. Roy doesn't command absolute respect or obedience from the Order, and it's not like Haley, his #2, doesn't make fun of his Lawful foibles all the time or V or Belkar never expresses disinterest in some of the things Roy thinks they ought to do.

Team Tarquin's a team, and unlike Team Evil, they don't all secretly despise each other. That doesn't mean that Tarquin's buddies feel obligated to do whatever he says or think snarking at his fascination with tropes is out-of-bounds. Tarquin and Malack had differences, too, but they talked them out when they got intense. It's just a different way for an Evil party to operate than we're used to, and really, is that so surprising considering what we have to compare it with?

Team Evil is a dictatorship based on fear; Xykon has control solely because Redcloak's can't get rid of him without taking an insane risk to the plan, but Redcloak and Xykon are tugging that balance constantly, and one of them IS going to be the death of the other in some form by the end of this. Tarquin's team are all about as powerful as him or possibly more so, since most of them can cast. Tarquin's in charge because he's got the plan, not because he'll kill them if they don't do every little thing he asks for.

The Linear Guild functioned, barely, because it was a collection of idiots willing to put Nale's delusions of grandeur and petty grudges ahead of their own ambitions and safety; Sabine followed all Nale's orders, no matter how dumb, because she's in love with him, and Thog stays loyal because he's too dumb not to be. Z's inclusion is debatable, but it's likely he'd have joined any team that gave him another shot at revenge on V, and he already knew Nale and his pay. The others either aren't alive long enough to realize Nale's a terrible leader or DID realize it and ditched him. Every member of Team Tarquin's a powerful and ambitious adventurer in their own right, not kobold fodder or an orc looking for someone to point them at things to smash. It would be ludicrous if they functioned like the Linear Guild OR Team Evil.

Good point. Also, what I said.

[Spoomeister]

I think Tarquin is definitely BOTH the Roy and the Elan of the group; they'd all be a gang of glorified tomb-robbers without his plan, but that doesn't mean whatever he says goes. They're friends, not subordinates; we wouldn't question that Roy leads the Order if Haley found a plan of his ridiculous and told him so. Tarquin's teammates got where they are today by working together with him, they just don't feel obligated to endanger themselves when they think Tarquin's just indulging his amusing eccentricity again. I would bet ten gold pieces they would kill the **** out of anyone that murdered Tarquin in revenge if it came to that; Tarquin's one of them, whether they operate without him or not, and Laurin would in all likelihood annihilate the guy who killed Tarquin the same way she reacted to Malack's demise.

Yeah, good points all around. In what little we've seen of their interactions they do seem to all have the "have known each other forever" sort of quasi-family vibe going. They're comfortable enough with each other and with themselves to be able to jibe and jab at each other from time to time, or to pick and choose what schemes to get in on.

Still can't take him seriously as a villain when one of his companions can call him Tarkie. :)

[veti]

Team Tarquin's a team, and unlike Team Evil, they don't all secretly despise each other. That doesn't mean that Tarquin's buddies feel obligated to do whatever he says or think snarking at his fascination with tropes is out-of-bounds. Tarquin and Malack had differences, too, but they talked them out when they got intense. It's just a different way for an Evil party to operate than we're used to, and really, is that so surprising considering what we have to compare it with?

Interesting observation on the difference between Team Evil and Team Tarquin. Team Tarquin act like PCs: their first priority is their own personal wealth, comfort, and artifact count. They co-operate for mutual gain, and Tarquin is the leader by virtue of the fact that he's the one who thinks biggest. He's The Man With The Plan.

Team Evil are NPCs to the bone. Their function is basically to provide the drive for the PCs. They have no real concept of personal wealth or power - even Xykon is more interested in "having fun" than "gaining XP". To them, it's all about "what difference they can make in the world", which is what makes them so dangerous and means they need stopping so urgently. They're a lot - nobler.


The Linear Guild functioned, barely, because it was a collection of idiots willing to put Nale's delusions of grandeur and petty grudges ahead of their own ambitions and safety; Sabine followed all Nale's orders, no matter how dumb, because she's in love with him, and Thog stays loyal because he's too dumb not to be. Z's inclusion is debatable, but it's likely he'd have joined any team that gave him another shot at revenge on V, and he already knew Nale and his pay. The others either aren't alive long enough to realize Nale's a terrible leader or DID realize it and ditched him. Every member of Team Tarquin's a powerful and ambitious adventurer in their own right, not kobold fodder or an orc looking for someone to point them at things to smash. It would be ludicrous if they functioned like the Linear Guild OR Team Evil.

The LG were a strange group. I read them as basically selfish on an individual level. We only see a few of them as individuals: Thog is content to follow his friend just as long as he gets enough fun and fudge ripple, Sabine - I think she followed Nale's orders initially because the IFCC told her to, in order to realise his "evil potential", and eventually started to develop an actual loyalty. Pompey joined up, as far as I can see, because it looked cool and he was bored. For Leeky Windstaff and Inigo Montoya, there were - tricky personal issues they wanted to work out, and Nale gave them cover to do that. And Z - well, who knows? Could be a variant on Sabine's or Pompey's motivations.

[The Oni]

It all makes perfect sense now.

Elan: "Leading the party was always YOUR dream, Dad - not mine. And you never made it either."

Tarquin: "..."

Cue Villainous Breakdown.

[Matt620]

Tarquin probably is the leader of the group, but leader doesn't mean you'll do everything without question. In the Linear Guild, Nale was the leader because he gave the others something they wanted: Sabine was in love with him, Zz'dtri was paid handsomely, Thog liked everyone (and was too stupid to think anything else), Pompey and Leeky were given the carnage and revenge they craved.

Laurin and Miron are not hurting for anything. They are following Tarquin's plan, and it's a good one, but they live wealthy, respectable lives. Laurin's daughter is doing well, and Miron's greed is sated. When it comes to fighting the OOtS, Tarquin can't give them something they want: The OOtS is no threat to Hannah, there is little, if any, profit to killing high-level adventurers (in comparison to collecting from the coffers of the Empire of Tears), and there's a big risk involved. As such, even if it would be very easy for the two to start slinging spells everywhere, there's no need to make enemies of the OOtS: They are Tarquin's enemy, and Tarquin's problem.

Considering that they are both casters, and Tarquin's genre-savvy, he'd know full well he can't threaten them.

[BlackDragonKing]

Interesting observation on the difference between Team Evil and Team Tarquin. Team Tarquin act like PCs: their first priority is their own personal wealth, comfort, and artifact count. They co-operate for mutual gain, and Tarquin is the leader by virtue of the fact that he's the one who thinks biggest. He's The Man With The Plan.

Team Evil are NPCs to the bone. Their function is basically to provide the drive for the PCs. They have no real concept of personal wealth or power - even Xykon is more interested in "having fun" than "gaining XP". To them, it's all about "what difference they can make in the world", which is what makes them so dangerous and means they need stopping so urgently. They're a lot - nobler.

What's sort of interesting about Team Evil to me is that it's sort of "yes and no" to being nobler. They provide an interesting counterpoint to Team Tarquin in that TT is, as we've agreed, like a party of PCs, a group of friends looking to their wealth, comfort, and power, and cooperating for mutual benefit with a functional social binding keeping it running nicely. Team Evil is a mixture of a visionary who is (at least in his own, hardly unbiased opinion) far nobler than them and Xykon, who is willing to be more vile than all the rest of the villains around combined without feeling a twinge of guilt.

Team Tarquin is evil in a sense that is more understandable in some ways; people looking for profit, influence, and comfort, things an adventurer can understand pretty easily. Hell, Haley's looking for her dad aside, her motives for getting into adventuring aren't that different from what got Mirion started as far as we can tell. Gain skills, do what you want, get filthy rich! Team Tarquin are still extremely evil, of course, and need to be stopped because their comfort and profit is not more important than all the people suffering under their rule.

Team Evil, on the other hand, is staffed by a fanatic who will warp the entire world to suit his desperate desire for vengeance and vindication, who would consign entire species to oblivion with the approval of his conscience, and a man who would break the world in two if he thought he had nothing better to do with eternity. Either Redcloak or Xykon gaining power over the gates would be devastating to the world in a degree Team Tarquin is too "normal" to be capable of.

[Mike Havran]

Actually, since Malack is destroyed, the Team Tarquin will keep on living in filthy wealth, make the western continent miserable for a couple of decades - not more - and then they will die and vanish in the history (something Tarquin tries to prevent).

Compare it to Xykon's and Redcloak's and IFCC's plan and we see who is the real threat.

[hamishspence]

Actually, since Malack is destroyed, the Team Tarquin will keep on living in filthy wealth, make the western continent miserable for a couple of decades - not more - and then they will die and vanish in the history (something Tarquin tries to prevent).

He was perfectly happy to vanish into history until Elan arrived on the scene:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

[Bulldog Psion]

I was wondering a few strips ago how Miron was taking this. Apparently, my thought that his blank look was disapproval was, indeed, correct.