2 Weapon fighting/mobility feats

[Arc_knight25]

Got a Goliath two weapon fighting style build happening.

Going to be taking Oversized two weapon fighting. Going into Tempest for the full 5 lvls.

Just wondering what other two weapon fighting and mobility feats are good?

So far have Ranger 6/Barb 1/Tempest 5/Fighter 2

Other feats so far are Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Elusive Target, Oversized two weapon fighting.

[Darrin]

Going to be taking Oversized two weapon fighting. Going into Tempest for the full 5 lvls.


I don't recommend this. Tempest makes you worse at TWF than better. Three of the five feats you need to get into it (Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack) don't really help TWF, which means you're better off spending those feat slots on things that make TWF better.



Just wondering what other two weapon fighting and mobility feats are good?


For mobility, take Travel Devotion. Actually, take it several times, if you have the slots for it. For the rest:

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585#post15034585).



So far have Ranger 6/Barb 1/Tempest 5/Fighter 2


I'd recommend:

1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion. Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape), Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Fighter 1. Feat: Oversize TWF. Bonus: EWP Bastard Sword.
4) Fighter 2. Bonus: WF Bastard Sword.
5) Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1. Pounce, Whirling Frenzy.
6) Wolf Totem Barbarian 2. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Improved Trip.
7) Exotic Weapon Master 1. Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting stunt.
8) Exotic Weapon Master 2. Uncanny Blow stunt.
9) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Feat: Combat Reflexes.
10) Ranger 4. Distracting Attack ACF.
11) Ranger 5.
12) Ranger 6. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook). Bonus: Improved TWF.
13) Fighter 3.
14) Fighter 4. Bonus: WS Bastard Sword.
15) Fighter 5. Feat: Leap Attack.
16) Fighter 6. Bonus: Robilar's Gambit.
17) Fighter 7.
18) Fighter 8. Feat: Travel Devotion. Bonus: Greater TWF.
19) Fighter 9.
20) Fighter 10. Bonus: Greater Weapon Focus.



Other feats so far are Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Elusive Target, Oversized two weapon fighting.

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Bounding Assault lets you make two attacks with a SINGLE weapon. So your TWF feats are wasted whenever you use it.

Elusive Target also doesn't help TWF much either. The first option only works if you're lucky enough to pick the right Dodge target AND he uses Power Attack against you... which is useless against all of your enemies that didn't take Power Attack. The second option only works if your Dodge target flanks you and misses an attack. How often do you let yourself be flanked? The third option can be very useful, but again, doesn't involve attacking with two weapons, even if you do get a free attack via Improved Trip.

Anyway, if you can't tell by now, I'm a much bigger fan of Double Hit than Bounding Assault.

[Scow2]

Elusive Target also doesn't help TWF much either. The first option only works if you're lucky enough to pick the right Dodge target AND he uses Power Attack against you... which is useless against all of your enemies that didn't take Power Attack. The second option only works if your Dodge target flanks you and misses an attack. How often do you let yourself be flanked? The third option can be very useful, but again, doesn't involve attacking with two weapons, even if you do get a free attack via Improved Trip.Well, figuring out which enemies have Power Attack should be easy (Look for the ones with two-handed weapons, or are otherwise big+ugly), and Power Attackers have a higher chance to miss than other enemies - and if they hit harder than the Goliath does, it may be better for him to move and provoke AoOs, which bounce off his Mobility+dodge, and strike the foe's allies instead.

Of course, that's under the faulty assumption that attack bonuses DON'T completely eclipse armor class, even with a +5 or 7 dodge bonus. Dervish is better than Tempest for high-mobility two-weapon fighters.

[Lilapop]

I don't recommend this. Tempest makes you worse at TWF than better. Three of the five feats you need to get into it (Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack) don't really help TWF, which means you're better off spending those feat slots on things that make TWF better.
While your final assessment is correct, you're omitting the Tempest capstone. Taking Spring Attack AND full five levels in Tempest allows you to move+attack with both weapons, so in this case, Spring Attack does make you better at TWF.

[Andezzar]

Dervish is better than Tempest for high-mobility two-weapon fighters.If you go into Dervish you can alos make a mobile two-handed weapon fighter.


While your final assessment is correct, you're omitting the Tempest capstone. Taking Spring Attack AND full five levels in Tempest allows you to move+attack with both weapons, so in this case, Spring Attack does make you better at TWF.Improved unarmed strike and snap kick lets you do the same. With superior unarmed strike you even do more damage than with two shortswords.

[Darrin]

While your final assessment is correct, you're omitting the Tempest capstone. Taking Spring Attack AND full five levels in Tempest allows you to move+attack with both weapons, so in this case, Spring Attack does make you better at TWF.

Nope, still stinks. Two-Weapon Spring Attack only lets you attack once with each weapon, so all those TWF feats are still going to waste. I'd rather spend three feat slots on Travel Devotion for 30 rounds of move/pounce/full attack/etc.

[Xerlith]

I'd rather dip a Cleric level for fueling Travel Devotion and some other domain power. Only if Cha's high.

[Arc_knight25]

I can see where your going with your build. Robilar's Gambit for all the AoO and using Double Hit to take advantage of your TWF.

Now this build calls for quite a bit of dex for Combat Reflexes to kick in. I find Goliath a poor choice for your build because of the -2 to dex.

Don't get me wrong its a solid TWF build for getting to use both main and off hand for AoO. The Travel Devotion feat is great for distances, but i find it lacks for getting into the fray without AoO. Spring Attack with Bounding Assault can get you through most enemies without incuring AoO.

I'd rather not incur AoO's, just because they could hit you, which I feel is a step in the wrong direction.

Also the Uncanny blow and Power Attack is alittle presumptuous. It would need DM approval.
Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting also only works with light weapons, yes oversized light weapons but still light weapons.

I get that Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are feat intensive for a prereq, but for the feel I want for my build, is to get in and dart around the enemies causing them to hit one another and to add to the confusion in Melee.

So all that I can see is to take Weapon focus, Weapon Specalization, G Weapon focus, G Weapon Specalization. To up attack and dmg.

[Darrin]

I can see where your going with your build. Robilar's Gambit for all the AoO and using Double Hit to take advantage of your TWF.

Now this build calls for quite a bit of dex for Combat Reflexes to kick in. I find Goliath a poor choice for your build because of the -2 to dex.


I see your point, but trying to do a low-Dex TWF build is a bit counterproductive (outside of Diopsid). Still, the Combat Reflexes/Double Hit is more my personal preference. Once you have the basics of TWF, there's a few other different routes you could go:


Add some Scout or Highland Stalker and go into Swift Hunter.
Build off of Improved Trip, maybe a Chain-Tripper with Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona) or do something with Knock-Down (assuming your DM accepts the SRD version).
Twin morning stars, doubling up on Melee Weapon Mastery, then Crushing Strike + Driving Attack.




Also the Uncanny blow and Power Attack is alittle presumptuous. It would need DM approval.


Even without Uncanny blow, Oversize TWF still allows Power Attack on both primary and offhand weapons.



Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting also only works with light weapons, yes oversized light weapons but still light weapons.


Dragonsplits (MMIV) should still work.



I get that Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are feat intensive for a prereq, but for the feel I want for my build, is to get in and dart around the enemies causing them to hit one another and to add to the confusion in Melee.


Once you can hit a DC 15 Tumble check, AoOs shouldn't be a problem, although that does cut your movement down until you can reliably tumble at full speed. Sounds like more of a question of personal preference... I'd much rather have Travel Devotion (x3) + Weapon Focus + Exotic Weapon Master 1 than five levels of Tempest.

[gorfnab]

How about a Swift Hunter (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/swift-hunters-handbook.html?m=1)?

Here is a basic Dervish Swift Hunter Build I have had some minor success with.

Human (or some other race + Flaws)
Scout 5/ Ranger 2/ Barbarian Whirling Frenzy (UA) Spiritual Totem: Lion (CC) 1/ Dervish 9/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge or regular Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish

*Open Feat Options* - Improved Critical Scimitar (decent as usual), Extra Rage (set to Whirling Frenzy), Elusive Target (negates Power Attackers), Combat Reflexes (extra attacks, somewhat situational depending on the game), Deadly Defense (combos with Elaborate Parry), Flay Foe, or Nemesis (great for Arcane Hunter Ranger ACF)

[Arc_knight25]

So the capstone of Tempest is to attack with both weapons once during a spring attack. Bounding Assault gives you another attack at a -5. If you go with Rapid Blitz you get another attack at -10 and negating of AoO from a 3rd enemy.

So you use your spring attack. Your 1st target gets you main and offhand, your second target can get your main and off hand again if you have up to Rapid Blitz. The second target will be getting a -5 offhand and a -10 mainhand(i figure for attack bonuses this has the best chance to hit so two weapon rend will take place)

Two-Weapon rend and you can get a possible 2 rends on 2 targets.

You can then place yourself to get flanked and use Elusive Target. If you take the feat Eyes in the Back of Your Head negates the +2 they get.

So I'm gonna post my build in a different thread. If anyone has any other ideas on what feats to take to improve TWF or other idea's on builds please post and I'll see if I should work them into my build.