Infinite cosmic power! Itty bitty living space.

[WebTiefling]

I'm in a virtually dwarf-only campaign setting, and I'm thinking of double PaO-ing myself into a different race for the benefits.

I'm thinking a Young Gold Dragon, a Planetar, or a Stone Giant. The problem is that those forms would all stick out like a sore thumb in a party of dwarves and in the dwarven cities where we're playing, and I don't want to do that.

Disguise Self doesn't help enough. Alter Self would lose the benefits I gain with PaO, and the Alter Self wouldn't be able to make me look like a dwarf again anyway.

Is there some sort of beefed up version of Disguise Self that could make one of those forms look like a Dwarf without losing the benefits of those forms?

Some (cheap-ish) magic item I could use to look like a Dwarf, but take off to revert back to the more powerful PaO form?

I want to have my cake and eat it too, I realize.

[Psyren]

"Double PAO" doesn't actually work. The spell is permanent, not instantaneous, so you'd be trying to stack it with itself.

[WebTiefling]

Most of the discussions I've seen here say it does work.

PaO into a form. That form lasts X time based on how different the forms are. Ranges from 20 minutes up to permanent. If I turn from a dwarf into a Planetar (for example) the spell would last 12 hours.

But, after the first PaO, cast it a second time.

That time, the form to which I'm shifting is the same as the form I'm already in, an when you look at the PaO spell's description, the length of time for that is permanent.

Seems pretty solidly RAW.

[Segev]

PAO says the duration is based on how radical the change is from "original state" to "enchanted state."

Best-case analysis would be:

1) PAO from dwarf into desired form (for argument's sake, we'll say it's sufficiently different as to have a base duration of only 20 min.).

2) PAO again, into the same object.

3) The duration of the second PAO, based on the shift from your "original" underlying form being the PAO'd form from the first PAO, is "Permanent."

4) However, the FIRST one only lasts 20 min. So, after 20 min., your form "under" the second PAO becomes "dwarf." That is now your "original" form for the second PAO, and, based on that form, your second PAO now only has a 20 min. duration. Most of that duration has already expired. So the second PAO will be ending soon.



ETA: To achieve permanent shifts of radical variety, you'd need to layer PAOs very carefully, such that each step is, itself, a permanent shift. For instance, to PAO permanently into a Beholder, you might try:

Dwarf->Elan (same kingdom, same size, start with higher than 10 int for same-or-lower intelligence)

Elan->Eyeball Beholderkin (same kingdom, same kind (aberration), same-or-lower intelligence)

Eyeball Beholderkin->Beholder Central Eye (same kingdom, same class, same-or-lower intelligence)

Beholder Central Eye->Beholder (same kingdom, same class, related)

[Darrin]

Most of the discussions I've seen here say it does work.


The main drawback is the duration is permanent, but still ongoing, so it can be dispelled. This can be alleviated somewhat with Spellblades, this doesn't work against area dispels.

[WebTiefling]

...

4) However, the FIRST one only lasts 20 min. So, after 20 min., your form "under" the second PAO becomes "dwarf." That is now your "original" form for the second PAO, and, based on that form, your second PAO now only has a 20 min. duration. Most of that duration has already expired. So the second PAO will be ending soon.



ETA: To achieve permanent shifts of radical variety, you'd need to layer PAOs very carefully, such that each step is, itself, a permanent shift. For instance, to PAO permanently into a Beholder, you might try:

Dwarf->Elan (same kingdom, same size, start with higher than 10 int for same-or-lower intelligence)

Elan->Eyeball Beholderkin (same kingdom, same kind (aberration), same-or-lower intelligence)

Eyeball Beholderkin->Beholder Central Eye (same kingdom, same class, same-or-lower intelligence)

Beholder Central Eye->Beholder (same kingdom, same class, related)

Does the expiration of the first spell suddenly change the duration of the second spell? That seems rather odd. The spell is permanent when cast. Changing something after the fact doesn't seem like it should retroactively change the duration of a spell. Any examples of something like this happening elsewhere?

However, as you said, careful layering should do it as well. That can be my backup plan, I guess.

[Segev]

It doesn't change the duration after the fact. It changes it retro-actively. This COULD mean that you actually (suddenly) had the second one expire some time back, so you just revert to your original pre-first-PAO form when the first PAO wears off, despite not having worn the first-PAO form since the second one was cast.

It's weird, but it isn't a one-off check. This isn't a computer program. It's magic interacting with magic. When the magic letting one magic sustain itself wears off, the other magic stops working, too.

If you have a glue that works well on both wood and metal, and one that works well on both metal and plastic, but not one that works well on both wood and plastic, you can still stick wood to plastic if you can put a layer of metal in between them. However, if the glue holding the wood to the metal isn't as good as the glue holding the metal to the plastic, when the glue holding the wood to the metal wears off, you don't still have plastic stuck to the wood. You have wood with nothing stuck to it.

[WebTiefling]

Ok, I can follow that logic.

So, for example, taking a Dwarf to a Planetar might go like this:

Dwarf -> Azer
Same Kingdom (animal) +5, Same Size +2, Same or lower Int +2

Azer -> Astral Deva
Same Kingdom +5, Same Size +2, Same class (outsider) +2

Astral Deva -> Planetar
Same Kingdom +5, Same Class (outsider) +2, Related (angels) +2

Does that work?

[WebTiefling]

The main drawback is the duration is permanent, but still ongoing, so it can be dispelled. This can be alleviated somewhat with Spellblades, this doesn't work against area dispels.

I have a pretty good sized haul of mad lootz and have around 10K gp.

Edit: I'm level 7 at the moment.

I have a few items that boost my own CL, and so I'm thinking of going to a wizard who can cast the spell (level 15), offer him a deal to let him use my CL-boosting items (if he doesn't have any) to get his CL up to at least 29 to cast the spells on me.

I'll pay full cost (29*80 = 2320 gp per spell) with some bargaining to let him continue to use my items for another day afterward to do some of his own casting in return for a price break.

DC to dispel them is 40. That makes the Polymorphs impossible to dispel via regular Dispel Magic, and very stinking difficult to dispel even with Greater Dispel Magic (only a natural 20).

[WebTiefling]

Stronger progression of PaOs, all permanent. (my current Int is 14)

Dwarf -> Azer
Same Kingdom +5, Same or lower Int +2, Same Size +2

Azer -> Hound Archon
Same Kingdom +5, Same or lower Int +2, Same Size +2

Hound Archon -> Astral Deva
Same Kingdom +5, Same class (celestial), Same Size +2

Astral Deva -> Planetar
Same Kingdom +5, Same class (celestial) +2, Related (angels) +2

So, back to the original question, is there some way to look like a Dwarf while really being a Planetar/Young Gold Dragon/Stone Giant?

[Kazyan]

Planetars have Change Shape, which will let you assume the appearance of a Dwarf.

[WebTiefling]

Planetars have Change Shape, which will let you assume the appearance of a Dwarf.

I don't gain that ability with a Polymorph spell. That's a special quality that isn't carried over when Polymorph or PaO is used.

Ditto for the Gold Dragon alternate form ability.

At least that's my understanding. Supernatural abilities and qualities aren't gained with Polymorph.

[Crake]

Planetars have Change Shape, which will let you assume the appearance of a Dwarf.

Last I remember, polymorph any object doesn't give you supernatural abilities of the form you assume.

[Gazzien]

Last I remember, polymorph any object doesn't give you supernatural abilities of the form you assume.

However, the feat Assume Supernatural Ability will let you.

[WebTiefling]

However, the feat Assume Supernatural Ability will let you.

Aha! That sounds nice! I'm not getting a feat for a few levels, though. Any other way to do this? If not, I can try that.