[3.5] Parallel Structures - A Creative Exercise

[Red Fel]

Core introduced us to, essentially, two combat designs: melee and spellcasting. Since then, we have been introduced to a variety of new classes within those structures, but we have also encountered new mechanisms altogether since the game began, including Psionics, Maneuvers, and Incarnum. (I won't mention Tome of Magic.) There have been others, but these three seem - appropriately - to get a good deal of press.

I have read guides that suggest that Incarnum goes well with Psionics, that Incarnates overlap nicely with Crusaders, and so forth, suggesting good synergies between any given two of the three.

My question, or rather, my challenge, is this: Can you come up with a good build that involves all three systems (Psionics, Incarnum, and Martial Adept Maneuvers) in some way? Bonus points if the build is (1) functional, (2) synergistic, and (3) flavorfully consistent.

Here are the rules:

1. No level limit. Obviously, going to level 20 offers you more opportunities, but if you think you can pull it off effectively with a level 5 build, be my guest.

2. First-party material only, no homebrews. First-party ACFs are also acceptable, but must be clearly indicated.

3. The build should include race, templates (where used), class(es), and feats. It need not be a detailed build, and specific charts and level-by level explanation are not required (although welcomed!); a simple explanation of races, classes, feats, and why they are chosen is sufficient.

4. All three systems must be used. The degree of use can vary, but it must be non-negligible. For example, using Martial Study to introduce a Maneuver is acceptable; simply taking a race choice that gives bonus Essentia is not. Note that while simply taking a Maneuver or Power granted via feat is acceptable, it looks cheap, and I know you can do better than that.

5. Although you must use all three systems, you are free to use any other elements that satisfy the above requirements. For example, if you decided to make a Cleric/Incarnate/Psion/Swordsage, I suppose you certainly could.

Disclaimer: This post is in no way affiliated with the Iron Chef, Zinc Saucier, or Copper Crackpot competitions. No points will be awarded for participation. In the event points are awarded, you will not be made aware of them. In the event you are made aware of them, no trophies will be awarded for the winner. Of course there are winners; there are always winners.

This thread is designed solely as a creative exercise, and is not authorized to practice law in the states of California, Iowa, or Denial. In the event of a thread lasting more than 20 pages, seek medical attention immediately. Management is not responsible for Urpriest, Psyren or Tippy. If this had been an actual emergency, a life vest would have deployed directly from your monitor. Management is not responsible for injuries resulting from an inflated life vest colliding with your face.

[Zombulian]

The unfortunate thing here is that there are no Dual progression psionic/initiator or soulmelding/initiator PrC's. I don't have the time right now for a full build, but I think an Incarnate 2/Ardent 2/Swordsage 1/Soul Manifester 10 could do alright.

[Red Fel]

The unfortunate thing here is that there are no Dual progression psionic/initiator or soulmelding/initiator PrC's. I don't have the time right now for a full build, but I think an Incarnate 2/Ardent 2/Swordsage 1/Soul Manifester 10 could do alright.

Interesting. So you'd use SM to advance Incarnate and Ardent. I agree, they do blend nicely. Why Swordsage so early, though? I'd figure a build like that would take its Martial Adept class later, to increase Initiator Level.

Yeah, I realize there are no PrCs that combine initiator and the others; but that's part of the challenge, isn't it?

[Zombulian]

Interesting. So you'd use SM to advance Incarnate and Ardent. I agree, they do blend nicely. Why Swordsage so early, though? I'd figure a build like that would take its Martial Adept class later, to increase Initiator Level.

Yeah, I realize there are no PrCs that combine initiator and the others; but that's part of the challenge, isn't it?

Ah yeah well I just figured I'd at SS level early because you don't really need more than 2 levels of Incarnate or Ardent. Probably start with one level of Ardent, then 2 levels of Incarnate, then the 1 level of SS for more combat options, then another level of Ardent. Using Practiced Manifester to be able to get 2nd level powers with only the 2 levels.
At level 5 you have 3 soulmelds, 1 chakra bind, access to 2nd level powers, and access to 2nd level maneuvers.

[Red Fel]

Ah yeah well I just figured I'd at SS level early because you don't really need more than 2 levels of Incarnate or Ardent. Probably start with one level of Ardent, then 2 levels of Incarnate, then the 1 level of SS for more combat options, then another level of Ardent. Using Practiced Manifester to be able to get 2nd level powers with only the 2 levels.
At level 5 you have 3 soulmelds, 1 chakra bind, access to 2nd level powers, and access to 2nd level maneuvers.

At the very least, there's some good ability-synergy (Wis) going on there. Although I would probably advise taking SS much later, rather than only slightly later.

Would you go Unarmed Swordsage, or keep it with the regular variant? Would you recommend any particular Mantles for the build? And given that Incarnate is alignment-focused, which alignment would you choose?

Also, what role would you be designing the character for? Melee? Maneuverability? It's an interesting patchwork, but it could use some cohesive themes.

[Zombulian]

At the very least, there's some good ability-synergy (Wis) going on there. Although I would probably advise taking SS much later, rather than only slightly later.

Would you go Unarmed Swordsage, or keep it with the regular variant? Would you recommend any particular Mantles for the build? And given that Incarnate is alignment-focused, which alignment would you choose?

Also, what role would you be designing the character for? Melee? Maneuverability? It's an interesting patchwork, but it could use some cohesive themes.

Eh I was just putting it on paper. Haven't put much thought in yet. It would probably work to do some type of tank, considering how good incarnates and ardents are at that. Time Mantle is never a bad idea, and Good would probably be the way go for Incarnate.
So maybe instead, it could go Elan Ardent 1/Good Incarnate 2/Ardent 2/SM 10/ and finish it with Crusader and more Ardent?

[avr]

I'm not that familiar with incarnum, but I've heard a little so here goes -

Totemist can give multiple attacks easily if I understand correctly. Some tiger claw maneuvers and the blood in the water stance can benefit from multiple attacks. Add a dash of the psionic war mind PrC to buff yourself (the instant clarity feat to recover maneuvers helps too) and something like Totemist 4 / Warblade 2 / War mind 2 / Warblade 12 might be viable. At level 5 you have the blood in the water stance and a bunch of attacks, at level 20 you have maneuvers up to 9th level.

Thrallherd gets followers with a one level dip and white raven buffs followers. Psion or Ardent 1 (with practiced manifester), Thrallherd 1, and Crusader or Warblade 14 leaves 4 levels for an incarnum class in a 20 level progression. Are there any incarnum classes or PrCs which would be particularly useful for buffing if taken as a 4-level dip?

[Red Fel]

Eh I was just putting it on paper. Haven't put much thought in yet. It would probably work to do some type of tank, considering how good incarnates and ardents are at that. Time Mantle is never a bad idea, and Good would probably be the way go for Incarnate.
So maybe instead, it could go Elan Ardent 1/Good Incarnate 2/Ardent 2/SM 10/ and finish it with Crusader and more Ardent?

So we have an NG Elan for the built-in Psi, leaning heavily on the Ardent for Psi, taking all ten levels of SM to add to Ardent manifesting and Incarnate... and Crusader for tanking. Interesting, interesting. I'll have to go back and look at my books to check out Mantles, but I could see a very solid tank build there, with Crusader's soak augmented by G-Inc's AC bonuses. I like it.


I'm not that familiar with incarnum, but I've heard a little so here goes -

Totemist can give multiple attacks easily if I understand correctly. Some tiger claw maneuvers and the blood in the water stance can benefit from multiple attacks. Add a dash of the psionic war mind PrC to buff yourself (the instant clarity feat to recover maneuvers helps too) and something like Totemist 4 / Warblade 2 / War mind 2 / Warblade 12 might be viable. At level 5 you have the blood in the water stance and a bunch of attacks, at level 20 you have maneuvers up to 9th level.

Totemist has 3/4 BAB, and has a good "savage" flavor; it can be part of a decent aggression/TWF/barbarian type build if need be. I could potentially see an unarmed build there, although it would take some feats. But the totem chakra adds some very useful and diverse flavors to combat, I like your thinking. A flavor challenge, of course, is that, like Barbarians, Totemists are illiterate, yet a War Mind uses the Talariic texts; you could pay skill points for the literacy, but it's a curious thing. Also, I think there's some MAD going on here - Totemist focuses on Con and Wis for meldshaping, War Mind for Wis for powers, Str and Con for combat, and Warblade focuses on Str and Con for combat, Int for class features. Still, I can see what you're trying for, there - a two-weapon fighting slaughterer with lots of offensive potential.


Thrallherd gets followers with a one level dip and white raven buffs followers. Psion or Ardent 1 (with practiced manifester), Thrallherd 1, and Crusader or Warblade 14 leaves 4 levels for an incarnum class in a 20 level progression. Are there any incarnum classes or PrCs which would be particularly useful for buffing if taken as a 4-level dip?

Now here is a clever one. Oh, I like this. Leadership breaks the game again, deliciously. Thrallherd for minions, White Raven for action economy breakage, and then an Incarnum class for, well, whatever. Incarnate has some utility here, although the real sparkle of that class in party play arises from Share Incarnum Radiance, which doesn't arise until 7th level. But this is a very nice idea, very nice indeed. If you don't mind missing out on some top-tier maneuvers, there's some solid potential here.

[Zombulian]

So we have an NG Elan for the built-in Psi, leaning heavily on the Ardent for Psi, taking all ten levels of SM to add to Ardent manifesting and Incarnate... and Crusader for tanking. Interesting, interesting. I'll have to go back and look at my books to check out Mantles, but I could see a very solid tank build there, with Crusader's soak augmented by G-Inc's AC bonuses. I like it.


Not only that, but using Elan with the Elan Resilience feat and the Lifebond Vestments soulmeld along with all the healing maneuvers given by Crusader makes it a pretty decent healer.

[Emperor Tippy]

Let's see (and because I want to be screwy).

Vow of Poverty Gray Elf Psion 17/ Martial Monk 1/ Swordsage 2.

Get Embrace/ Shun the Dark Chaos onto your powers known list via Psychic Chiguery and a Spell to Power Erudite.

Use feats to shape, and even bind, soulmelds. Psychic Chiguery let's you use the Shape Soulmeld feat without any feats expended.

Manifests as a level 20 Psion (thanks to Praticed Manifester). Has Int to HP instead of Con thanks to Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Has access to 6th level maneuvers from the Swordsage list.
Has Int to AC from Martial Monk along with a nifty feat (which one exactly depends on what you feel like doing, I would probably grab Spring Attack unless epic feats are allowed).
And has every item slot filled with a soulmeld, meld's that can even be bound.

For extra fun, remove martial monk and replace it with one level of an Eidetic Spellcaster Elf Generalist wizard using early entry for 2nd level spells and then replace 10 levels of Psion with Cerebremancer. Also grab the feat Psiotheugist.

9th level Psion powers at an ML of 20-34, 6th level Wizard spells at a CL of 15-35, 6th level maneuvers at an ML of 11, and all slots filled with melds.

[Red Fel]

Not only that, but using Elan with the Elan Resilience feat and the Lifebond Vestments soulmeld along with all the healing maneuvers given by Crusader makes it a pretty decent healer.

Ooh, very nice. I'd almost forgotten that. Yeah, that works really, really well. Well played!


Let's see (and because I want to be screwy).

Vow of Poverty Gray Elf Psion 17/ Martial Monk 1/ Swordsage 2.

Get Embrace/ Shun the Dark Chaos onto your powers known list via Psychic Chiguery and a Spell to Power Erudite.

Use feats to shape, and even bind, soulmelds. Psychic Chiguery let's you use the Shape Soulmeld feat without any feats expended.

Manifests as a level 20 Psion (thanks to Praticed Manifester). Has Int to HP instead of Con thanks to Faerie Mysteries Initiate.

Has access to 6th level maneuvers from the Swordsage list.
Has Int to AC from Martial Monk along with a nifty feat (which one exactly depends on what you feel like doing, I would probably grab Spring Attack unless epic feats are allowed).
And has every item slot filled with a soulmeld, meld's that can even be bound.

For extra fun, remove martial monk and replace it with one level of an Eidetic Spellcaster Elf Generalist wizard using early entry for 2nd level spells and then replace 10 levels of Psion with Cerebremancer. Also grab the feat Psiotheugist.

9th level Psion powers at an ML of 20-34, 6th level Wizard spells at a CL of 15-35, 6th level maneuvers at an ML of 11, and all slots filled with melds.

I must have missed it; where are you getting the class ability to bind soulmelds? The Shape Soulmeld feat (which allows you to shape a single soulmeld, so you'd have to take it once for every soulmeld you want) only enables you to shape soulmelds, not to bind them to chakra points. That requires a class ability.

Even if that did work, your cheeseburger lacks some flavor. Yes, you can manifest and soulmeld and initiate. But where is the concept? The cohesion?

You're Emperor Tippy, man! Your cheese should be well-aged, rich and tasty! This stuff tastes like store-brand cheddar! Make this cheese tasty! Exclamation point!

[Psyren]

The unfortunate thing here is that there are no Dual progression psionic/initiator or soulmelding/initiator PrC's. I don't have the time right now for a full build, but I think an Incarnate 2/Ardent 2/Swordsage 1/Soul Manifester 10 could do alright.

ToB does have the advantage though in that non-initiator classes do still advance your IL.



I must have missed it; where are you getting the class ability to bind soulmelds? The Shape Soulmeld feat (which allows you to shape a single soulmeld, so you'd have to take it once for every soulmeld you want) only enables you to shape soulmelds, not to bind them to chakra points. That requires a class ability.

No, both the Bind X Chakra feats and the Open Chakra power explicitly let you form binds.

[Red Fel]

ToB does have the advantage though in that non-initiator classes do still advance your IL.

That's very true. It just means that some synergy, rather than a specific class combining the systems, is required.


No, both the Bind X Chakra feats and the Open Chakra power explicitly let you form binds.

Whoops! You're right, the Open X Chakra feats do have that language. I was looking at the other Chakra feats (which require a pre-existing ability to bind soulmelds). Thanks for catching that!

It still tastes a bit too cheesy, though. At some point, you'd think that a DM would call hijinks on all the free feats.

[Psyren]

It still tastes a bit too cheesy, though. At some point, you'd think that a DM would call hijinks on all the free feats.

DCFS is very cheesy, yes. But, you know. Tippy.