Why won't Miron and Laurin fight?

[Henry the 57th]

Just reading this last comic strip, I don't understand why Miron and Laurin are refusing to step in and end things for Tarquin. They don't seem to think the Order is a serious threat to them. They think that he's wasting his empire's resources. He's their friend, and seeming leader, and the one who came up with their nefarious scheme in the first place. Why aren't they willing to do him a small favor? A few spells would end it in seconds without serious effort or risk. But they're treating him like he's some sort of moron who they barely know.

OOC, I know it's because plot contrivance - if the villains acted sensibly they'd have won hundreds of strips ago. I accept that. I'm looking for their IC reason for doing so.

[Roland Itiative]

Laurin is more than a little irritated by how Tarquin indulges his children, and the consequences this can have. If she were to attack, I'd imagine her first target would be Elan himself (which she probably didn't do just because of her friendship with Tarquin). And Miron seems to be in it just for the profit, and the waste of resources isn't really affecting his purse, so there's nothing to gain from going into the fray, but definitely something to lose.

[RMS Oceanic]

Self interest. They see this as a family matter for Tarquin, and they don't see the point in risking their neck for such when there's no reward in it, which to be fair there isn't.

[Kish]

...Because they do not share your mistaken and rather boggling impression that they can slaughter a group of adventurers who outnumber them and nearly equal them in level in "seconds" without "serious effort or risk."

[Aeriander]

Just reading this last comic strip, I don't understand why Miron and Laurin are refusing to step in and end things for Tarquin. They don't seem to think the Order is a serious threat to them. They think that he's wasting his empire's resources. He's their friend, and seeming leader, and the one who came up with their nefarious scheme in the first place. Why aren't they willing to do him a small favor? A few spells would end it in seconds without serious effort or risk. But they're treating him like he's some sort of moron who they barely know.

OOC, I know it's because plot contrivance - if the villains acted sensibly they'd have won hundreds of strips ago. I accept that. I'm looking for their IC reason for doing so.

I think they are acting sensibly. They've known this guy, brilliant guy, for a good chunk of their lives. He is very intelligent and capable but he has his... quirks. And after 20+ years of dealing with someones quirks, I imagine they just don't really care anymore. It's not that they do it because they hate Tarquin, they do it because they've been through this same scenario in different clothes countless times.

To Mirion and Laurin, OOTS is just another bump in the road.

[NerdyKris]

Just reading this last comic strip, I don't understand why Miron and Laurin are refusing to step in and end things for Tarquin. They don't seem to think the Order is a serious threat to them. They think that he's wasting his empire's resources. He's their friend, and seeming leader, and the one who came up with their nefarious scheme in the first place. Why aren't they willing to do him a small favor? A few spells would end it in seconds without serious effort or risk. But they're treating him like he's some sort of moron who they barely know.

OOC, I know it's because plot contrivance - if the villains acted sensibly they'd have won hundreds of strips ago. I accept that. I'm looking for their IC reason for doing so.

They explained it pretty well in the strip. Tarquin's last indulgence got Malack killed. Elan and the Order are at least the same level if not higher. This isn't a risk free endeavor. It's extremely risky. Durkon alone is a pretty big threat right now, along with V. They straight up say to Tarquin that they don't want to waste resources on this matter any more.

Now I did incorrectly argue that they were going to agree with Tarquin before this strip, but now we can clearly see that they feel Tarquin's desire for a "good story" is too risky at times. The Order aren't a threat to them. They could simply let them go on their way, and by the time the Order came back, Miron, Laurin, Jacinda, and sword guy would simply move onto a different scheme and be untraceable. They even point out that Jacinda could probably take them out in their sleep without any risk to them.

[Vinsfeld]

I think they are acting sensibly. They've known this guy, brilliant guy, for a good chunk of their lives. He is very intelligent and capable but he has his... quirks. And after 20+ years of dealing with someones quirks, I imagine they just don't really care anymore. It's not that they do it because they hate Tarquin, they do it because they've been through this same scenario in different clothes countless times.

To Mirion and Laurin, OOTS is just another bump in the road.

And like Laurin said, one of these quirks got Malack killed. What if the Order is stronger than they seem to them (or has something up their sleeves) and kills one of them?

[NerdyKris]

And like Laurin said, one of this quirks got Malack killed. What if the Order is stronger than they seem to them (or has something up their sleeves) and kills one of them?

Like, for instance, one of them being a vampire cleric with dominate, and a wizard spontaneously appearing on the battlefield from out of nowhere. For all they know, the Order could be allies with a secret army of paladins from Azure City that contains spell casters ready to teleport in at a moment's notice.

[SavageWombat]

Imagine, for example, that Laurin said "all right, whatever" and used psiDisintegrate on Varsuvius - only to run into V's previously-undisclosed Ring of Spell Turning. Laurin fails her save and eats 40d6 of damage.

Sheer, almost impossible, bad luck - but they didn't get to where they are by taking unnecessary risks.

[Xelbiuj]

^ All of the above.

Nale slaughtered Malack, this isn't a risk-less endeavor. They're probably annoyed that Tarkie let it happen.
Nale's more competent(still alive) brother and "his" team are slaughtering Tarquin's Army with no trouble.

V appeared out of nowhere and started slaughtering the soldiers as well. Who knows how many more wizards are ready to poof onto the field?

Elan and his girlfriend are in the fray, why risk killing them and causing unnecessary, pointless strife between the group?

Tarkie is worried that they wont have enough motivation to come back and try to topple his empire, why the #$%@ would those 2 even want that?


I'm sure there's a good 10 other reasons not to do it. Is it really that unbelievable?

[Gift Jeraff]

Well, from their perspective, Nale was able to kill one of their equals seemingly on his own (poor Zz'dtri, not getting the credit he deserves), so it stands to reason that Nale's twin with a full party can somehow do some serious damage to them, especially now that their healer is gone.

True, this doesn't follow a mechanical line of thinking--Laurin and Miron are not exactly "equals" to Malack since they are not dragged down by a big LA, nor do they have a big weakness to something as abundant as daylight (presumably), but they think like characters, not machines.

[Spoomeister]

The sorts of adventurers who have gotten to their level, who have spent years building and manipulating empires against each other, as part of a decades-long association and part of how they probably want to live for the rest of their lives... yeah, they're not going to casually kill other high-level adventurers willy-nilly. Not exactly impulsive people.

V doing disintegrate-then-gust-of-wind on a barely-has-levels NPC irritant is very different from near epic level characters wiping out other near epic level characters out of frustration or annoyance.

[Nanako]

...Because they do not share your mistaken and rather boggling impression that they can slaughter a group of adventurers who outnumber them and nearly equal them in level in "seconds" without "serious effort or risk."

pretty much this.

Nale killed malack mostly single-handedly, and he's not exactly an amazing person. I'd guarantee that roy at least, is personally stronger.

Taking on the OOTS would be a big risk for tarquin's group. They might (probably would) win, but they'd likely also take losses too, and not really accomplish much in the long run.

i think the oots would lose because belkar is near death, durkon must be nearly out of spells, and /v/ has used plenty up too. roy has got to be a bit low on HP right now as well. but still they'd put up a good fight

[mhsmith]

The other thing is, Tarquin wants to have just PART of OOTS killed. It's one thing if we're talking TPK here (presumably Miron/Laurin are higher level, AND they're both casters, AND Tarquin is there, AND there are a bunch of mooks who can keep fighters occupied if nothing else), but Tarquin's plan would basically involve Miron and Laurin putting big fat targets on their own heads if/when Elan comes back to oppose Tarquin again in the future.

So assuming that the plan "works" and that Elan would continue to level up and become a big threat, and put together a party with extremely high level adventurers like Rob Redshield, those adventurers would then directly come after Miron/Laurin for revenge. Instead of the current situation, where it's HIGHLY plausible that Tarquin gets overthrown and the others stay in relative power.

FWIW I'm starting to see as a plausible outcome that the OOTS simply leaves and never bothers to return. Maybe Haley sends some resources to help her dad try and overthrow Tarquin, but that's basically it. No dramatic scene, no great story. Tarquin would HATE that kind of outcome.

[bguy]

FWIW I'm starting to see as a plausible outcome that the OOTS simply leaves and never bothers to return. Maybe Haley sends some resources to help her dad try and overthrow Tarquin, but that's basically it. No dramatic scene, no great story. Tarquin would HATE that kind of outcome.

I can't really see Roy or Elan being willing to let the populace of the Empire of Blood continue to suffer under a brutal dictatorship just because it might annoy Tarquin a little bit. They are going to care more about helping those people, even if it means Tarquin "wins."

[Snails]

I think they are acting sensibly. They've known this guy, brilliant guy, for a good chunk of their lives. He is very intelligent and capable but he has his... quirks. And after 20+ years of dealing with someones quirks, I imagine they just don't really care anymore. It's not that they do it because they hate Tarquin, they do it because they've been through this same scenario in different clothes countless times.

To Mirion and Laurin, OOTS is just another bump in the road.

I like this answer.

This battle is very clearly Tarquin playing his weird little games with his own family. It has nothing to do with their mutual understanding.

Besides, even a respected leader might sometimes be "put in their place" for the sake of the longer term relationship. Maybe they are irritated that he allowed Nale to kill Malack?

It is not that they are unwilling to listen to Tarquin's reasons, it is just that he has not offered any that make sense to them.

[Kish]

I would add that from any perspective except Tarquin's "these are fundamentally window dressing just like the soldiers, only powerful window dressing," which he really doesn't want Laurin and Miron to realize is his perspective, his request looks staggeringly hypocritical. "I want the group in the crater dead, so I want to be the only person here not involved in the fight." Even if they were confused enough to think they could just mow down the Order, there's no good reason for them not to respond, "Take out your own trash your own self, Tarquin."

[brionl]

They explained it pretty well in the strip. Tarquin's last indulgence got Malack killed. Elan and the Order are at least the same level if not higher. This isn't a risk free endeavor. It's extremely risky. Durkon alone is a pretty big threat right now, along with V. They straight up say to Tarquin that they don't want to waste resources on this matter any more.


Laurin at least is higher level than Vaarsuvius. She can manifest 9th level powers.

To sum up what other people have said "They got no dog in this fight."

[Dausuul]

Just reading this last comic strip, I don't understand why Miron and Laurin are refusing to step in and end things for Tarquin.

The more we see of their team, the more obvious it becomes that Tarquin is regarded by the others as a grandiose, untrustworthy schemer who's obsessed with playing stupid meta-narrative games and manipulating his offspring. Malack got tangled up in Tarquin's webs and he died for it. Laurin, at least, is furious at Tarquin for that, and neither she nor Miron has any intention of suffering the same fate. The OotS may not be as high-level as Tarquin's gang, but they're powerful enough to be dangerous and they have Tarquin, Miron, and Laurin outnumbered two to one.

Nor do Miron and Laurin see any upside for them in participating. On the contrary, they want Tarquin to quit fooling around and get back to doing his job. They've indulged him too much as it is.

[SavageWombat]

Nor do Miron and Laurin see any upside for them in participating. On the contrary, they want Tarquin to quit fooling around and get back to doing his job. They've indulged him too much as it is.

Ooh, there's a good hypothetical. If Miron and Laurin decide Tarquin's a liability - can the scheme be run without him? They're already down Malack.

Presumably they'd have to remove the Empress of Blood and start manipulating her replacement.

[NerdyKris]

Laurin at least is higher level than Vaarsuvius. She can manifest 9th level powers.

To sum up what other people have said "They got no dog in this fight."

They have no idea what V's power level is yet. They have seen him/her cast wall of fire, fly, and a lightning bolt. For all they know, V could whip out "Murder Laurin and Miron in one shot" next.

They have no dog in this fight, yes, but they also have no idea of the risk they'd be taking in getting involved. They don't know if there's another wizard in wait, or allies, or how powerful anyone but the melee characters are.

[Skarn]

I get the feeling that no one in Tarquin's party actually respects him. Even his "old friend" Malack thought of him as a fool, so this doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Tvtyrant]

The party I am DMing recently 2-shot a Bluespawn Godslayer who was backed by a young adult blue dragon at level 5. D&D is extremely swingy, which means that you can very easily die to a lower level group if you mix it up.

It makes perfect sense to desire killing the Order of the Stick from afar using their greater abilities rather than straight on fight them.

[F.Harr]

These are all excellent theories.

[Matt620]

Why should they? As Miron states pretty easily, there is literally no reason for them to do that other then because Tarquin wants them too.

Miron thinks the whole idea is stupid: He could just have Roy assassinated if he wanted the guy dead: Tarquin's idea of setting up a narrative is little more than grandstanding, the same way Malack chewed out Tarquin for making him work with Nale, and not getting the job done.


I don't think either Miron or Laurin have anything against Tarquin's little quirks: Miron has his own as we can see. But when they're fighting against a high level enemy party (with a fully stocked wizard in the bunch, and a vampire cleric who can dominate the plentiful mooks), that's a risk with no reward. Why take it?


The two of them are simply too practical for Tarquin

[JBiddles]

It only takes a blown save against Disintegration or, worse, Domination, and they're dead with no cleric/a hazard to their own side.

[137beth]

Because they don't want to end up like Malack. That's why Laurin is already fighting on the Order's side (in the form of a spiked devil).

[Bulldog Psion]

Practicality. Why attack someone they have no beef against, and who is busy slaughtering mooks like a high level party might be expected to? They didn't become lords of the continent by recklessly stuffing their own heads into every meat grinder they encountered.

If they know that the Order is on a quest to save the world, they might view it as imbecilic (which it is) to try to kill them in order to give Elan the Bard a chance to shine, or something.

[Amphiox]

We should not forget that Laurin has already cast some high level magic this day. She and Miron may or may not have equipped themselves with the expectation of having to go into battle against high level opposition.

And the two of them may not necessarily know what V's level is. They both may well be wary of the possibility that V may have any number of high level spell slots saved up, as yet unused, which she has not demonstrated against the mooks because he hasn't needed to.

[The Oni]

I don't think it's a matter of not respecting Tarquin, but that the trust they had in his leadership/management ability was seriously undermined when Malack was killed - since it was by Tarquin's order he agreed to work with Nale. They've both realized that the situation's gone south on Tarquin's watch, so they aren't gonna take any orders from him until they're sure he's thinking rationally again.

[skim172]

My take on it: because they're business partners, not friends. I think maybe Tarquin & Friends operates more like a joint enterprise, not as a "team." They all get money and power and security and that's all they're in it for. They're not interested in Tarquin's family drama - that's personal. This is business.

It's like you and your co-workers. You might like your co-workers, get along well, maybe even make friends with some of them. But when Bill from Accounting asks you to come help him move, that's just bad etiquette - you barely know the guy outside of work. You work on one report together and now he just casually asks you to spend your whole Saturday straining your back shifting his furniture? That's not cool, man. Not cool. :smallmad:

So I think it's a similar thing here. They're business partners and everything they've done so far has been related to keeping their operations flowing smoothly. But Miron and Laurin aren't gonna risk their necks just because Tarquin has some drama B.S. with his kids - especially when this personal stuff ended up getting one of their partners killed already.

[JT]

For all they know, V could whip out "Murder Laurin and Miron in one shot" next.

Or perhaps, cast PARTICIDE... A strange spell that came about when a dyslexic wizard was researching a spell just half as deadly as familicide.
:smallwink:

[factotum]

Because they don't want to end up like Malack. That's why Laurin is already fighting on the Order's side (in the form of a spiked devil).

Er, what? The spiked devil was summoned by Durkon, what does Laurin have to do with it?

[SavageWombat]

Er, what? The spiked devil was summoned by Durkon, what does Laurin have to do with it?

That's what she WANTS you to think.

[happycrow]

Bad guys tend to be just as intolerant of leadership mistakes as they are of followership bungles, and by any standard except that in Tarquin's psychopathic little forebrain, this is a cluster.

[wolfdreams01]

What's the level adjustment of a vampire? +6 or so? And Team Tarquin is low epic. Basically, Durkon is probably the toughest character present right now. And the rest of the OOTS is not substantially lower level.

In other words, you're suggesting that maybe 3 characters of level 22-23 or so wade in there to take on SIX characters, five of whom are level 16-17 and one of whom is effectively level 22-23. That would be a VERY poor tactical decision, even with all the mooks. Why expose themselves to that level of risk simply to indulge Tarquin's quirks?

If you want to talk lack of realism, it would be much better to discuss why Xykon teleported out and missed out on a perfectly good massacre simply to save a few minutes of time or so. If I had been in Rich's shoes, it would have made more sense for Xykon to teleport out after seeing Tarquin's army - because destroying an army is the kind of thing that would probably take him more time, and would make his decision more plausible.

[Olinser]

What's the level adjustment of a vampire? +6 or so? And Team Tarquin is low epic. Basically, Durkon is probably the toughest character present right now. And the rest of the OOTS is not substantially lower level.

In other words, you're suggesting that maybe 3 characters of level 22-23 or so wade in there to take on SIX characters, five of whom are level 16-17 and one of whom is effectively level 22-23. That would be a VERY poor tactical decision, even with all the mooks. Why expose themselves to that level of risk simply to indulge Tarquin's quirks?

If you want to talk lack of realism, it would be much better to discuss why Xykon teleported out and missed out on a perfectly good massacre simply to save a few minutes of time or so. If I had been in Rich's shoes, it would have made more sense for Xykon to teleport out after seeing Tarquin's army - because destroying an army is the kind of thing that would probably take him more time, and would make his decision more plausible.

They're not low epic.

Most estimates put them in the high teens.

Malack was no higher than 12th level. With a LA of 6 for vampires, that puts him, and the rest of his party in the 18ish range. Which is about right, since Laurin used Gate.

They could be a level or two in either direction, but 22-23 is a HUGE stretch, Malack wouldn't have been THAT far behind the rest of his party.

But they really don't have very much detailed information on the OOTS members.

If Miron and Laurin are in the 18-20 range, sure WE know they could probably win against the OOTS.

But it's also completely possible that the OOTS wins.

One blown save against a Disintegrate or a Dominate, and one of them is dead. If Roy can manage to get a full power attack round against one of them, they are probably dead. A dispel magic from V followed by a couple good shots from Haley would take a BIG chunk out of either of their health.

Add that in to the fact that they both already heard Elan state that they were just going to leave before Tarquin tried to have Roy and Co killed.

So what exactly is the gain here? Fighting a group of high-level adventurers that already were planning to leave anyway, just to salve Tarquin's ego?

Tarquin's group is nothing if not pragmatic. They see moderate risk here for absolutely no tangible gain to themselves. Unless one of them is directly threatened (or MAYBE if the OOTS attacks Tarquin directly), they won't risk their necks.



Regarding Xykon, it wasn't to save time so much as to piss Redcloak off. Xykon barely even remembers any of the OOTS, he doesn't really care about them.

[Snails]

If I had been in Rich's shoes, it would have made more sense for Xykon to teleport out after seeing Tarquin's army - because destroying an army is the kind of thing that would probably take him more time, and would make his decision more plausible.

I would bet my bottom dollar the thought occurred to the Giant. He did not go that way because letting Roy live was a seemingly low cost means for Xykon to tick off Redcloak and put Redcloak in his place.

You are under the mistaken impression that there is some logical reason that Xykon should recognize Roy as a long term problem. No, at this point, Xykon probably recognizes his real rival is most likely to be Redcloak. Getting Redcloak mad knocks him off his game.

[Coat]

You have two casters - powerful, but vulnerable.

In the crater is a decent-level fighter, a vampire dwarf high enough level to be able to control a reasonably powerful demon, a caster of indeterminate level, and some misc (demon, Belkar).

The demon itself is a threat to a caster, because of it's ability to teleport and spikey grapple - they may or may not have enough knowledge(religion) to know this.

So - to a couple of lvl 17+ casters, that's a threat, but not a massive one. Still worth consideration before taking on.

However, there's also Elan and Haley.
Haley, especially, could probably put either of Miron or Laurin down in a single round if she got into sneak attack range and they didn't have their defences up. And Elan can cast illusions and possibly dispels - so that's not outside the realm of possibility.

If I was either Miron or Laurin, first person I'd whack would be Elan, followed immediately by Haley. The team in the crater is tied up, so they're the only uncontrolled asset.

And they're the only ones that Miron and Laurin can't touch.

Ask a lvl 17+ caster to take on a lower level wizard, meat shield, a vamp dwarf cleric and a demon while tied up by an army - maybe worth it.
While you're being sniped and sneak attacked by a high level rogue/bard combo you're not allowed to fight back? No thanks.

I think I can see a 'fine, I'll do it myself' coming. Honestly, in this situation Tarkie might be a better choice.

[The MunchKING]

FWIW I'm starting to see as a plausible outcome that the OOTS simply leaves and never bothers to return. Maybe Haley sends some resources to help her dad try and overthrow Tarquin, but that's basically it. No dramatic scene, no great story. Tarquin would HATE that kind of outcome.

On the contrary, that means he gets to keep living it up like a king until some other 2 bit hero comes along and dethrones him. He'd be perfectly fine with that for a second-best ending.

[TriForce]

my guess, and i firmly believe this will be the case, is that tarquin will get sorted out OFF PANEL in the epilogue... no big fight (shown) no nothing, just 1 or 2 lines of text in the epilogue that might not even mention his name. where is your narrative victory now tarkie?

[torugo]

Moreover...even Tarquin is wrong...

He is trying to kill Roy in the premisse that Elan is the hero of the comic. But Roy is the comic hero and the order cant die here. So there is no way the 2 of them entering the conflict can bring a good results..

[dancrilis]

I suspect they wanted to know what it was all about and when they found out that it was a personal matter for Tarquin they felt ... 'meh'.

Miron: You want a guy dead there is a better way, have someone kill him later this seems wasteful.
Tarquin: Not really the point, I want this to be a lesson for my boy, you could help by killing them?
Miron: Oh no, not important to me.

Let us switch this up.

Friend1 <see Friend2 argueing with there significant other about getting a cup of tea>: You want a cup of tea there are easier ways.
Friend2: Not really the point, I want to have a cup of tea without standing up, you could get it for me?
Friend1: Oh no, not important to me.

Sure Miron could help, and sure Friend2 could get the cup of tea - but why bother?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Sure Miron could help, and sure Friend2 could get the cup of tea - but why bother?

That is not a good analogy because getting the cup of tea is not particularly risky; Friend2 may do that simply as a favor to Friend1, to be nice. But Tarquin is asking Miron to risk his life for what Miron considers "nonsense". Even a close friend and long-time associate would probably refuse that request.

[Taelas]

They're not low epic.

Most estimates put them in the high teens.

Malack was no higher than 12th level. With a LA of 6 for vampires, that puts him, and the rest of his party in the 18ish range. Which is about right, since Laurin used Gate.

They could be a level or two in either direction, but 22-23 is a HUGE stretch, Malack wouldn't have been THAT far behind the rest of his party.
LA for vampires is +8, and that does not take into account his base race, which likely has both LA and RHD. Malack, at the very least, must have been Epic.

Now, mind you, this does not guarantee that Tarquin and the rest of his team are low Epic. They are not PCs. They do not have to be the same ECL in order to work together. But Malack is probably still the technically weakest member of the team in terms of pure caster levels/HD.

[Warren Dew]

Just reading this last comic strip, I don't understand why Miron and Laurin are refusing to step in and end things for Tarquin. They don't seem to think the Order is a serious threat to them. They think that he's wasting his empire's resources. He's their friend, and seeming leader, and the one who came up with their nefarious scheme in the first place. Why aren't they willing to do him a small favor? A few spells would end it in seconds without serious effort or risk. But they're treating him like he's some sort of moron who they barely know.

OOC, I know it's because plot contrivance - if the villains acted sensibly they'd have won hundreds of strips ago. I accept that. I'm looking for their IC reason for doing so.
I think Miron and Lauren see helping Tarquin in this situation as facilitating a bad habit. They think it's a bit stupid for him to waste his resources this way, and while they recognize that he can do what he wants with his resources, they don't want to encourage him.

It goes back to the "business before pleasure" thing. Coming here to help take the gate was business for them. However, the gate issue - the business - is resolved. The current battle is Tarquin's "pleasure". They're not going to deny him his pleasure, even if they disapprove, but they don't feel obligated to help or encourage it, either.

[Harbinger]

Well, from what we've seen of Miron, he doesn't seem like the type to stick his neck out for other people when there's nothing in it for him. As for Laurin, she's more than a little upset at Tarquin for allowing one of her other long time friends to be slaughtered by his psychopath of a son.

[davidbofinger]

they're treating him like he's some sort of moron who they barely know.

On the contrary, they're treating him like someone they know too well to be fooled by again. Miron is obviously used to Tarquin's obsession with story, and finds it annoying. Malack had a similar though milder reaction.

Laurin speaks of "enabling", a terminology borrowed from alcoholism and similar problems. It's as though she thinks if she helps Tarquin this time it will only encourage him to do something similar or worse next time. And to a significant extent she might have her perception of Tarquin's best interests at heart, just like an alcoholic's friend refusing to provide him with booze.


My take on it: because they're business partners, not friends.

Tarquin described Malack as his best friend. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)

They've got a lot of history together and still care about each other, but they also recognise each other's failings and often find them annoying. They're more like a family. A not entirely happy family.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Tarquin described Malack as his best friend. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)

That is Tarquin and Malack specifically. We don't have a reason to think he's close friends with anyone else in the party, I don't think.

[ti'esar]

Personally, I suspect Tarquin's definition of friendship is too different from that of normal people to settle that question one way or another.

[Gil-Galad II]

I'm more curious to know why Tarquin wasn't fighting, actually. Laurin and Miron had every reason not to fight, or to care, but Tarquin obviously does. We saw him mop the floor with the Order before - admittedly, without Vaarsuvius, but V wasn't around for the beginning of this fight either. In fact, the Order were in a terrible position when this battle began - Belkar nearly dead, Elan and Haley separated, and Durkon low on spells. The only favourable point is that Durkon is now more powerful - but Tarquin's known a vampire for years, I'm sure he'd have a few strategies prepared.

My theory is that Tarquin is afraid deep,down that he's got it wrong...that Elan isn't the hero, and Tarquin isn't willing to risk his life on that chance. It's a bit flimsy, but I can't think of a better one.

[Liliet]

It's because the Evil Overlord does not personally slaughter the hero's mentor - no, for greater humiliation, he tells his mooks to do so, while himself standing up there and twirling mustache.

Also, what do you think Tarkie's Will save is and how will it mix with Durkula's at-will Domination?

[Kish]

I'm more curious to know why Tarquin wasn't fighting, actually. Laurin and Miron had every reason not to fight, or to care, but Tarquin obviously does. We saw him mop the floor with the Order before - admittedly, without Vaarsuvius, but V wasn't around for the beginning of this fight either. In fact, the Order were in a terrible position when this battle began - Belkar nearly dead, Elan and Haley separated, and Durkon low on spells. The only favourable point is that Durkon is now more powerful - but Tarquin's known a vampire for years, I'm sure he'd have a few strategies prepared.

My theory is that Tarquin is afraid deep,down that he's got it wrong...that Elan isn't the hero, and Tarquin isn't willing to risk his life on that chance. It's a bit flimsy, but I can't think of a better one.
I don't think it's flimsy. Tarquin's narrative savvy tells him that if he personally enters this battle, suddenly it will be a climactic confrontation--between him and Roy Greenhilt, not him and Elan. And that...horror of horrors...might even mean he, Tarquin, winds up as a sub-boss on the way to Zyklon rather than the other way around.

[David Argall]

Like, for instance, one of them being a vampire cleric with dominate, and a wizard spontaneously appearing on the battlefield from out of nowhere. For all they know, the Order could be allies with a secret army of paladins from Azure City that contains spell casters ready to teleport in at a moment's notice.
Now the party may be more bother than they are worth to kill, but let's be serious here. V is a competent enough wiz, but she is still an amateur by their standards. And they have had a chance to judge him in action. They know they can take her easily enough. Oh he will likely cause a fuss, but we are still talking routine easy victory. The other suggestions are just paranoia, with both definite and likely reasons to reject the ideas.
We come back to the idea of personal relations. This is Tarquin's personal folly. He wants to waste a lot of his troops? His business and they are not going to stop him. But they are not going to help him, particularly when he has not suggested getting into the fight himself [which they likely assume would be an easy victory for him.]

[Liliet]

Now the party may be more bother than they are worth to kill, but let's be serious here. V is a competent enough wiz, but she is still an amateur by their standards. And they have had a chance to judge him in action. They know they can take her easily enough. Oh he will likely cause a fuss, but we are still talking routine easy victory. The other suggestions are just paranoia, with both definite and likely reasons to reject the ideas.
We come back to the idea of personal relations. This is Tarquin's personal folly. He wants to waste a lot of his troops? His business and they are not going to stop him. But they are not going to help him, particularly when he has not suggested getting into the fight himself [which they likely assume would be an easy victory for him.]

Just so you understand: Durkula is now more powerful than Malack was.

It is nowhere near routine easy victory.

[F.Harr]

I don't think it's flimsy. Tarquin's narrative savvy tells him that if he personally enters this battle, suddenly it will be a climactic confrontation--between him and Roy Greenhilt, not him and Elan. And that...horror of horrors...might even mean he, Tarquin, winds up as a sub-boss on the way to Zyklon rather than the other way around.

That's a good point.

[Bulldog Psion]

Just so you understand: Durkula is now more powerful than Malack was.

It is nowhere near routine easy victory.

Durkula is now quite a bit more powerful than anyone else in the Order.

A priest, with the vampire template stacked on top? The dwarf is definitely quite a heavy hitter now.

[Gil-Galad II]

I don't think it's flimsy. Tarquin's narrative savvy tells him that if he personally enters this battle, suddenly it will be a climactic confrontation--between him and Roy Greenhilt, not him and Elan. And that...horror of horrors...might even mean he, Tarquin, winds up as a sub-boss on the way to Zyklon rather than the other way around.

Yeah, I agree with that...funny that, given that you're agreeing with me!:smallsmile:

I didn't put what I was thinking down particularly well, though, so here goes: As far as I can tell, Tarquin considers Roy to be Elan's mentor figure...what else could he be in Elan/Tarquin's 'story'? And, of course, whenever the Big Bad Villain and the Mentor do battle...well, I think Julio (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) puts it particularly well. So, yes, it would be a confrontation between Roy and Tarquin, but one where Roy dies, Elan screams NOOO!, and a nice resolution to 'Book I' is reached.

So, it surprises me that Tarquin is...well, either that he's pragmatic enough to recognise that this isn't a story, or that he has that much doubt about the story he's creating.

Yeah, so I agree with you (and me!)...just trying to explain why it all feels a little flimsy and/or surprising to me.

[137beth]

Yeah, I agree with that...funny that, given that you're agreeing with me!:smallsmile:

I didn't put what I was thinking down particularly well, though, so here goes: As far as I can tell, Tarquin considers Roy to be Elan's mentor figure...what else could he be in Elan/Tarquin's 'story'? And, of course, whenever the Big Bad Villain and the Mentor do battle...well, I think Julio (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) puts it particularly well. So, yes, it would be a confrontation between Roy and Tarquin, but one where Roy dies, Elan screams NOOO!, and a nice resolution to 'Book I' is reached.

So, it surprises me that Tarquin is...well, either that he's pragmatic enough to recognise that this isn't a story, or that he has that much doubt about the story he's creating.

Yeah, so I agree with you (and me!)...just trying to explain why it all feels a little flimsy and/or surprising to me.

He says he is afraid of making Roy look badass. Dieing in a duel to Tarquin in front of Elan would probably, in Tarquin's mind, make someone look extremely badass, so he's hoping Roy is killed off by a nameless mook.
That's my initial guess...

[Jay R]

This party has been together for many years, without taking a permanent loss. They have a good plan, which gives them the power and riches of three empires with minimal effort or risk.

Today, in this adventure, for the first time ever, one of their members has just been destroyed - permanently. They reasonably believe that this adventure carries unnecessary risks, for no particular gain except to bolster Tarquin's ego - which is probably not one of their primary desires.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think that they're both business partners and friends. However, if a long-term friend suddenly says to you, "hey, you know, it'll look really cool if we play chicken with that traffic coming down the road!", you're probably going to refuse unless you're 13 years old or something. It's pointless, risky, and dumb. It doesn't mean you suddenly stop being their friend, but you're likely to refuse to participate. Especially if they say, "hey, why don't you play chicken while I stay back here and watch?"

Tarquin asked his friends to play chicken for his amusement. They refused. Nothing particularly deep or mysterious, just the typical reaction you can expect from a group of older, experienced buddies when someone asks them to do something both pointlessly dangerous and very sophomoric.

[rbetieh]

I don't know....Mirons first reaction was "hey, why dont you just send our party assasin to take care of this?". I am pretty sure he would not care one wit about killing Roy, just as long as he doesn't have to expend his own energy. Miron is primarily concerned with resources and their proper use. Wasting resources to tell a good story is just wasting resources to him.

Meahwhile, Laurin is saying that she just flat out disagrees with Tarquins parenting. He created a spoiled prince, who as spoiled prices tend to do, killed his uncle (malack) to ensure he assumes the throne. Laurin contrasts this to her own daughter, who has been taken out of harms way and been given a decent life outside of the dangerous world of politics and adventuring. What Laurin ought to realize is that it is exactly Tarquins plan (a group of adventurers controlling the politics of a continent from the shadows) that has given her daughter this life, and if they are ever exposed her daughter is in mortal danger....

[Gil-Galad II]

He says he is afraid of making Roy look badass. Dieing in a duel to Tarquin in front of Elan would probably, in Tarquin's mind, make someone look extremely badass, so he's hoping Roy is killed off by a nameless mook.
That's my initial guess...

My perception is that he's not afraid of making Roy look badass, he just is making him look badass instead of killing him. As long as Elan gets the motivation to come back and finish the story, I don't think Tarquin cares how Roy goes down. Feel free to debate that, though!

[Jay R]

And now we know the answer. They wouldn't fight for their ally yet, because they were holding out for the bribe.

This isn't the good party, people.

[Silverionmox]

They're not going to chase them - they're going to cut the chase.

Cue Tarquin vs Xykon. What form would power take this time?

[Jay R]

They're not going to chase them - they're going to cut the chase.

Not quite. They are going to cut to the chase. This is a metaphoric phrase that means quit talking and get to the action.


Cue Tarquin vs Xykon. What form would power take this time?

They can't be going to Xykon. Laurin wouldn't know where the wormhole should go.

[Chantelune]

And now we know the answer. They wouldn't fight for their ally yet, because they were holding out for the bribe.

This isn't the good party, people.

I doubt they were really waiting for Tarquin to bribe them, both seemed surprised he would go as far as calling in Mirion's favor and Laurin just takes the oportunity, seeing how desperate Tarquin is.

I really think they just don't give a damn about Roy and the Order, not seeing them as such a big deal as Tarquin does.

[Olinser]

I doubt they were really waiting for Tarquin to bribe them, both seemed surprised he would go as far as calling in Mirion's favor and Laurin just takes the oportunity, seeing how desperate Tarquin is.

I really think they just don't give a damn about Roy and the Order, not seeing them as such a big deal as Tarquin does.

That's exactly what's going on. They weren't interested in fighting the OOTS, because what the hell for? Risk vs gain.

At the start there was no gain for them personally, and there's always the risk that one of them COULD get killed (them not being allowed to touch Elan or Haley seriously complicates that as well).

Now they have tangible reasons - Miron because he presumably owed one heck of a favor to Tarquin for him to hang on to it this long, and Laurin because she's got something specific she wants. Risk vs Gain - now the gain is enough to outweigh the risk.

[Newwby]

...Because they do not share your mistaken and rather boggling impression that they can slaughter a group of adventurers who outnumber them and nearly equal them in level in "seconds" without "serious effort or risk."

This is a nutshell. Even if you're fifteen levels apart then you're still getting smacked 1 out of 20 times, with levels so close you can seriously risk injury or death.

Not to mention if they've even one tenth of the genre savviness Tarquin has (been neglecting to demonstrate these past few strips) then they'll realise that a ragtag group of heroes backed in to a corner has a significant bonus on plot victory saving throws.

[Bulldog Psion]

They're not going to chase them - they're going to cut the chase.

Cue Tarquin vs Xykon. What form would power take this time?

The Order hasn't gone anywhere. You can still see them in the distance. The wormhole is just to catch up to people who haven't even run out of sight yet.

[Warren Dew]

Not quite. They are going to cut to the chase. This is a metaphoric phrase that means quit talking and get to the action.
In this case it seems to be a literal chase, though.

[factotum]

Not to mention if they've even one tenth of the genre savviness Tarquin has (been neglecting to demonstrate these past few strips) then they'll realise that a ragtag group of heroes backed in to a corner has a significant bonus on plot victory saving throws.

Miron, at least, doesn't seem to believe in the power of narrative causality like Tarquin does--he showed contempt for the idea when he refused to help out before. Unknown what Laurin thinks of it, but I'd be surprised if she's any more convinced of it. As for Tarquin himself, he doesn't believe Roy is the main hero, remember? Therefore there's no worry about killing him because he's not important to the story--at best, he's the mentor whose death inspires Elan to greater heights.

[F.Harr]

Miron, at least, doesn't seem to believe in the power of narrative causality like Tarquin does--he showed contempt for the idea when he refused to help out before. Unknown what Laurin thinks of it, but I'd be surprised if she's any more convinced of it. As for Tarquin himself, he doesn't believe Roy is the main hero, remember? Therefore there's no worry about killing him because he's not important to the story--at best, he's the mentor whose death inspires Elan to greater heights.

I just wish we could get Tarquin and Xykon into a room together to debate who's the main antagonist, here.

[Emanick]

I just wish we could get Tarquin and Xykon into a room together to debate who's the main antagonist, here.

Let's get Vaarsuvius to book the arena. :smallbiggrin:

[rodneyAnonymous]

I just wish we could get Tarquin and Xykon into a room together to debate who's the main antagonist, here.

Xykon's index fingerbone has a stirring dissertation prepared on that very subject.

[zimmerwald1915]

We should not forget that Laurin has already cast some high level magic this day. She and Miron may or may not have equipped themselves with the expectation of having to go into battle against high level opposition.
Laurin is a Psion, and as such can keep manifesting level 9 powers until she has less than nine power points left to her name.

For those speculating about risk to Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, consider that three level 17 characters (it's a fudge, I know) plus a triceratops is an EL 20 encounter. Then consider that at minimum, the Order plus the allosaurus is about as powerful as a party of four level 19 characters. Tarquin, Miron, Laurin and their dino are a "very hard", but by no means unbeatable, encounter for the Order even with so many of the Order's resources depleted. The risk to Tarquin, Miron and Laurin is very real.

[Kish]

Laurin is a Psion, and as such can keep manifesting level 9 powers until she has less than nine power points left to her name.Less than seventeen, surely.

[zimmerwald1915]

Less than seventeen, surely.
Sure. Does it matter much when her PP total is somewhere between seventy and one hundred?

[skaddix]

Laurin is a Psion, and as such can keep manifesting level 9 powers until she has less than nine power points left to her name.

For those speculating about risk to Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, consider that three level 17 characters (it's a fudge, I know) plus a triceratops is an EL 20 encounter. Then consider that at minimum, the Order plus the allosaurus is about as powerful as a party of four level 19 characters. Tarquin, Miron, Laurin and their dino are a "very hard", but by no means unbeatable, encounter for the Order even with so many of the Order's resources depleted. The risk to Tarquin, Miron and Laurin is very real.

Durkon is out of spells but I suppose the order can turn the tide if they make it to dusk and Durkon gets to pick spells way quicker then normal. Belkar will focus on controlling his mount because he is useless in real combat right now. Laurin is down some points but V is also down some spells. Mirion should be at max

[Emanick]

Durkon is out of spells but I suppose the order can turn the tide if they make it to dusk and Durkon gets to pick spells way quicker then normal. Belkar will focus on controlling his mount because he is useless in real combat right now. Laurin is down some points but V is also down some spells. Mirion should be at max

Sadly, I doubt that the Order will be able to rest during a battle with three near-epic-level characters.

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon is out of spells but I suppose the order can turn the tide if they make it to dusk and Durkon gets to pick spells way quicker then normal. Belkar will focus on controlling his mount because he is useless in real combat right now. Laurin is down some points but V is also down some spells. Mirion should be at max
All true (with some minor caveats like Durkon still having Thor's might prepared), but can any of this information factor into Tarquin's, Miron's or Laurin's decision-making? What do they know of Durkon's spell slots, or V's spell slots, or Belkar's constitution? Point is, attacking the Order poses a real risk to their health and safety, and they should be able to appreciate this risk.

[Kish]

Sure. Does it matter much when her PP total is somewhere between seventy and one hundred?
...It's that low? I'm not an expert on high-level psions to put it mildly, but if her power point maximum is no higher than one hundred, then I'd say yes, it matters; she's already down 34 points from the two wormholes she opened, plus whatever she spent reading Nale's mind and whatever she spent disintegrating his corpse and anything she spent offpanel.

*looks at the SRD* Ah. Must actually be at least 250. That makes a lot more sense; never mind.

[Chantelune]

Point is, attacking the Order poses a real risk to their health and safety, and they should be able to appreciate this risk.

True, but Tarquin doesn't care, because it's important and related to his "legacy". Or rather, he's overconfident in his appraising of narrative structures that he believes to rule the multiverse. He's going to enact the classical "villain kill the mentor figure so Elan can swear revenge and step up as the true hero of the story". The way he sees it, there's no way he can fail, that's a necessary step of the story developement.

That he's wrong to begin with as he's not the main antagonist and just a B-lister to the actual story never crossed his mind. My bet is that he's going to die by Roy's blade with "but I'm the main villain, I can't die here and now !" as his dying words.

He was already confident he could just "execute" the rest of the order with some mooks, but when it turned out it wouldn't work, he never question his assertion of the situation, just decided that he needed to do it himself (with his pals). Not having this favor, he would probably still decided to go kill Roy by himself anyway.

[F.Harr]

Durkon is out of spells but I suppose the order can turn the tide if they make it to dusk and Durkon gets to pick spells way quicker then normal. Belkar will focus on controlling his mount because he is useless in real combat right now. Laurin is down some points but V is also down some spells. Mirion should be at max

It sounds like Plan A: Survive until Dusk is back on the table again.

[Emanick]

It sounds like Plan A: Survive until Dusk is back on the table again.

It's one thing to try and survive for a few hours when you're facing an army of low-level soldiers. It's quite another to try and survive for a few hours - or even several minutes - when you're facing a small team of near-epic characters, especially if two of them are spellcasters. Relying on a strategy of endurance isn't going to be much of an option for the Order, I'm afraid.

[JSSheridan]

I doubt Laurin will participate in the battle unless she's directly threatened or T or M are about to kick it. The wormhole was her favor.

I don't think Tarquin will die here. That'd be two of Elan's family in one day, and would be too hard on the guy.

Plus, Roy doesn't get to fill Elan's narrative role. :belkar:

[Kish]

I doubt Laurin will participate in the battle unless she's directly threatened or T or M are about to kick it. The wormhole was her favor.
She said she would open a wormhole anyway, but would only participate in the fight herself if Tarquin wanted to owe her a favor.

[Olinser]

She said she would open a wormhole anyway, but would only participate in the fight herself if Tarquin wanted to owe her a favor.

Which he already agreed to. Ergo, she is going to fight.

[Shale]

It's one thing to try and survive for a few hours when you're facing an army of low-level soldiers. It's quite another to try and survive for a few hours - or even several minutes - when you're facing a small team of near-epic characters, especially if two of them are spellcasters. Relying on a strategy of endurance isn't going to be much of an option for the Order, I'm afraid.

Endurance no, hiding until Durkon has finished praying, maybe. It's all about when the fight starts, not how long it takes.

[sims796]

I didn't realize this fight would be so close. I mean, by himself, Tarquin was able to fight the Order to a standstill, albeit through misrepresentation. And they had to retreat because Malack intervened. Though Malack did lose the "fight" to Durkon.

Why would this round go differently? Honest to goodness question here, hoping to avoid snarky sarcasm for replies.

[Kish]

I didn't realize this fight would be so close. I mean, by himself, Tarquin was able to fight the Order to a standstill, albeit through misrepresentation. And they had to retreat because Malack intervened. Though Malack did lose the "fight" to Durkon.

Why would this round go differently? Honest to goodness question here, hoping to avoid snarky sarcasm for replies.
You ruin all my fun.

This fight might go differently because:
1) They know who they're fighting from the start, as well as knowing that he regenerates and is highly fire resistant.
2) Vaarsuvius is there.
3) Durkon is, ah, unlikely to be so easy to throw this time.
4) Tarquin, at least, is likely to be reluctant to kill Elan, and they know it.

The fight might go rather similarly because:
1) It is not impossible that Rich meant the earlier fight to establish that Tarquin outclasses the OotS thoroughly.
2) Durkon, Vaarsuvius, and Elan are low on spells.
3) Tarquin probably won't expect Elan to launch the most effective attack of the party this time.

It cannot go, "Dice fall, the Order dies." I trust I do not need to explain why.

[zimmerwald1915]

You ruin all my fun.

This fight might go differently because:
1) They know who they're fighting from the start, as well as knowing that he regenerates and is highly fire resistant.
2) Vaarsuvius is there.
3) Durkon is, ah, unlikely to be so easy to throw this time.
4) Tarquin, at least, is likely to be reluctant to kill Elan, and they know it.
Both Tarquin's and the Order's objectives are also markedly different than they were on the rooftop. On the rooftop Tarquin wanted to take the Order's - read "Elan's," though I doubt I need to remind you of that - measure and secondarily to prod them deeper into the pyramid. The Order, meanwhile, was outside to do some reconnaissance, to learn who was attacking them and to find V. Once they learned they were under attack by the Linear Guild and that V was nowhere to be found, they had no particular reason to remain where they were. They could have fought longer, but they didn't have to, so they were happy to oblige Tarquin and retreat into the pyramid.

Now Tarquin doesn't need the Order to retreat, he needs to pin them in place in order to kill Roy. He tried to do so with the army, but Belkar and V put paid to that plan in various ways. He can follow wherever they go as long as Laurin can manifest wormhole, but that's not a great substitute. The Order, meanwhile, needs only to escape...with at most one life lost, as Durkon can resurrect that person later.

Now that I think about it, if Roy is killed, it would let us see what on Earth Roy's Archon and Eugene have been up to, particularly the latter (who had better have a good excuse for not doing his job).


2) Durkon, Vaarsuvius, and Elan are low on spells.
Durkon is low on spells, and Elan is out of healing. Most of Elan's spell slots are, per usual, uncast. He could deploy a helpful illusion if he wanted and thought of it. We don't even know all his spells known so he might pull out a surprise non-illusion (though this is unlikely). Vaarsuvius is by no means low on spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16236441&postcount=440).

[137beth]

Durkon is low on spells, and Elan is out of healing. Most of Elan's spell slots are, per usual, uncast. He could deploy a helpful illusion if he wanted and thought of it. We don't even know all his spells known so he might pull out a surprise non-illusion (though this is unlikely). Vaarsuvius is by no means low on spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16236441&postcount=440).

And as you mentioned in the linked post, Dimensional Anchor could do a lot in this fight, and V usually has that spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html). Of course even then out-running Tarquin and Laurin wouldn't be easy if Laurin can use Burst or something similar.

[factotum]

I think V makes all the difference, to be honest. He's got most of his spells left (we've only seen him cast a few) and is undoubtedly the most powerful member of the Order at the moment (once Durkon gets his spells refreshed then he probably takes that particular crown)--and of course, he wasn't present for the previous fight. They're also up one dinosaur, but down Belkar, who's essentially just a second-rate fighter who's good at taking down hordes of mooks, but not so much against high-level guys like Team Tarquin.

[Jay R]

I didn't realize this fight would be so close. I mean, by himself, Tarquin was able to fight the Order to a standstill, albeit through misrepresentation. And they had to retreat because Malack intervened. Though Malack did lose the "fight" to Durkon.

Why would this round go differently? Honest to goodness question here, hoping to avoid snarky sarcasm for replies.

Tarquin attacked a V-less Order of the Stick "by himself" opened up with two Acid attacks from Zz'tdri, and ended with a Flame Strike from Malack, which was the only thing they ran from. (And note that the outcome of that encounter was a successful retreat - the exact goal of the Order at present.)

A little bit later, The Order of the Stick ambushed a Malack-free Linear Guild, and defeated them handily, banishing the outsider, deafening or paralyzing most of the rest, and causing a full-scale retreat. One member of the order was left complaining that it went so fast, he didn't even get to help.

Neither encounter shows that one side can overwhelm the other. The two encounters together show that both outcomes are possible. And Vaarsuvius, Miron, and Laurin are all still unmeasured here.

[F.Harr]

It's one thing to try and survive for a few hours when you're facing an army of low-level soldiers. It's quite another to try and survive for a few hours - or even several minutes - when you're facing a small team of near-epic characters, especially if two of them are spellcasters. Relying on a strategy of endurance isn't going to be much of an option for the Order, I'm afraid.

I ain't arguing. And I'm not saying that they won't come up with a better plan. but it's planned and that's better than no plan until they have a chance to plan some more.