Drag Comp: Urban Druid Still tier 1?

[CyberThread]

So considering that urban druid get a lesser wildshape, which makes you more an animated object then anything like T-rex, does this version of wildshape still keep the druid at a tier 1?

[Frosty]

Be a Warforged Urban Druid. You are now Optimus Prime. The coolness factor alone brings it to tier 1 :smallcool:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Does the Urban Druid still get 9th level spells?
Can the urban druid change his spells on day to day basis?

If you answered yes to both of them then yes the Urban Druid is still tier 1

Druids aren't Tier 1 due wildshape (otherwise Wildshape ranger would also be tier 1), the reason is they have access to 9th level spells from a really deep pool and if their choice isn't perfect they aren't locked into that choice; they simply have to wait a day to choose new spells.

[eggynack]

First of all, yes, absolutely. A druid without wild shape is tier one, because it still has prepared full casting from a deep list. Second of all, it sounds like you're talking about City Soul, which trades away elemental wild shape for animated object wild shape. It's in the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Are you sure that's not what you're thinking of? Cause you don't lose most of wild shape with that one, and it seems pretty good to me.

[Karnith]

Druids are tier 1 on the basis of their spellcasting; all of the other abilities are just icing on the cake. Having Wild Shape nerfed, or even removed, would move the Druid class (marginally) lower in tier 1, but not to a lower tier.

Second of all, it sounds like you're talking about City Soul, which trades away elemental wild shape for animated object wild shape. It's in the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Are you sure that's not what you're thinking of? Cause you don't lose most of wild shape with that one, and it seems pretty good to me.
Urban Druid is in the Dragon Compendium (also, Dragon #317, where it originated from), as is stated in the thread title.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So considering that urban druid get a lesser wildshape, which makes you more an animated object then anything like T-rex, does this version of wildshape still keep the druid at a tier 1?
It's not as good, no, but it's not bad either-- you can still replace your physical stats, pick up alternate movement modes, and so on. And you still have unrestricted access to the third-largest spell list in the game. So yes, it's definitely still T1.

[CyberThread]

First of all, yes, absolutely. A druid without wild shape is tier one, because it still has prepared full casting from a deep list. Second of all, it sounds like you're talking about City Soul, which trades away elemental wild shape for animated object wild shape. It's in the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Are you sure that's not what you're thinking of? Cause you don't lose most of wild shape with that one, and it seems pretty good to me.



No it is the dragon compendium base class, which has a similar druid spell casting but slightly more limited and other additions, you also lose your wildshape for basically a progression of animated objects of various forms, to the point of a walking door, to a collasoal statue.

[eggynack]

No it is the dragon compendium base class, which has a similar druid spell casting but slightly more limited and other additions, you also lose your wildshape for basically a progression of animated objects of various forms, to the point of a walking door, to a collasoal statue.
That sounds like a whole lot of not-wild shape changes to just simplify down to a worse version of wild shape. I feel like altering the casting of the class might have a bigger effect, though it might not if the list is similar.

[Coidzor]

Depends upon what the urban druid's spell list is like in comparison and how strong of a tier 1 it is depends upon whether it gains any access to druid spells from the splats.

[Psyren]

Does the Urban Druid still get 9th level spells?
Can the urban druid change his spells on day to day basis?

Careful; the spell list does matter, because Healer meets both those requirements and isn't T1.

Urban Druid does have its own list but I forget what's on it.

[Ashtagon]

You could strip away his animal companion, wild shape, and ability to wear armour, and he'd still be tier 1.

[Fax Celestis]

Careful; the spell list does matter, because Healer meets both those requirements and isn't T1.

Urban Druid does have its own list but I forget what's on it.

I thought the healer was full-list spontaneous?

[Psyren]

I thought the healer was full-list spontaneous?

Nope - they're prepared casters. They can't even spontaneously channel into cures or Sanctified Spells.

[Karnith]

I thought the healer was full-list spontaneous?
No, Healers have to prepare their spells. They'd be way too strong, otherwise.

[Fax Celestis]

As if it were possible for that class to be worse.

[Snowbluff]

As if it were possible for that class to be worse.

It's not that bad. I made a healer for a Tier test, and since I blew my feats on Incarnum stuff and Mastery of Day and Night (each person could only use so many books), I was able to do a decent job patching people up in emergencies and I had filler for when I was not doing that.

Anyway, Healers get Gate, and featureless Druid gets Shapechange. If Druid's are hurting for more spells and starts digging for Vile and Sanctified spells, the Healer is going to do the same.

[Akal Saris]

Off-topic: Using sanctified spells (which healers get by default as prepared casters) helps their list out considerably. So does using the SpC's recommendations to give healers access to support spells from that book. I'm of the opinion that healers are mis-placed in tiers, if we assume that core+1-2 books is the standard that classes are judged on (which, judging from JaronK's posts, was his base assumption in placing classes such as factotum).

On-topic: You might even be "stronger" than a normal druid if the game takes place in a primarily urban setting and values social or stealth skills highly.

[Psyren]

The SpC recommendation is just that though, a recommendation. Those spells aren't added to their list by RAW, even if it's suggested, and the tier system assumes no DM assistance.

Sanctified Spells help a lot - but unlike Clerics, they can't spontaneously convert into them (nor even into cure/heal spells) forcing them to anticipate how many they'll need.

[Snowbluff]

The SpC recommendation is just that though, a recommendation. Those spells aren't added to their list by RAW, even if it's suggested, and the tier system assumes no DM assistance.
Agreed.


Sanctified Spells help a lot - but unlike Clerics, they can't spontaneously convert into them (nor even into cure/heal spells) forcing them to anticipate how many they'll need.
The same would be true for wizards, but healers get more spells per day than a specialist wizard. Since most sanctified spells (or at least the ones I would use) are buffs, it's much easier to anticipate how many you would need per day.

[CyberThread]

Well it gets most the druid spells, with a few alterations, like getting Glibness, repair light,medium(all of those type of spells) , Enthrall, Obscure Object,halt undead, lemonuds tiny hut, shrink item, tongues, stinking cloud, animate object(a casting level before everyone else would) , major creation and those sort of spells.


I am not sure what it is missing from the druid spell list in comparison so the type of spells you would find on a bard or beguiler list, has a chance of being on the urban druid list.

Instead of instant summon spells, you get instant repair spells.


Charisma casting instead of wisdom

[eggynack]

Instead of instant summon spells, you get instant repair spells.

See, this seems like a bigger power level adjustment than changing wild shape. Druidic summoning is highly powerful, and it allows a druid to prepare situationally high power spells with the expectation that they can always become bears in a pinch. There aren't that many situations where you can't reap some advantage by summoning something. For the spell list, I'd have to look at it in depth. If anything's going to reduce the druid's tier, it's going to be changes to casting.

Edit: Yeah, that list's basically gotta be worse. It looks about the length of the druid's spell list in the PHB, and druids have a lot of spells that are not in the PHB. It doesn't look like this druid even gets summoning spells, or any of my preferred first level BFC's. There're certainly some new gems that have been added, and evaluating those could take some time, but it doesn't look like a great situation. I can't be entirely sure that this qualifies as tier one without a better understanding of the list's intricacies. It probably is though, because a druid with just PHB materials is still tier one, and this looks a lot like that.

[CyberThread]

Antipathy
Citygate
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Foresight
Freedom
Imprisonment
Regenerate Conjuration
Shapechange
Storm of Vengeance

level 9 spells it has

[eggynack]

Antipathy
Citygate
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Foresight
Freedom
Imprisonment
Regenerate Conjuration
Shapechange
Storm of Vengeance

level 9 spells it has
9th level spells are basically irrelevant for the understanding of a class' tier. What's actually important is that the list is missing entangle, impeding stones, wall of smoke, spore field, omen of peril, and even produce flame. That's just first level stuff. The class is also missing blinding spittle, kelpstrand, mass snake's swiftness, and splinterbolt from second level. These are the spells that determine power level, not whether a class is casting miracle or astral projection when they hit level 17. Urban druid is also missing just about all of my favorite third level spells. In return the class gets effectively nothing at first level, a couple of enchantments and rope trick at second level, and glibness, stinking cloud, and shrink item at third. That's a lot less to work with, and I haven't even gone deep into the summoning issue. These are the actual problems with the class compared to a regular druid.

Edit: The list is also missing passage of the shifting sands at fourth level, and that spell seems really cool. Just sayings is all.

[JaronK]

Off-topic: Using sanctified spells (which healers get by default as prepared casters) helps their list out considerably. So does using the SpC's recommendations to give healers access to support spells from that book. I'm of the opinion that healers are mis-placed in tiers, if we assume that core+1-2 books is the standard that classes are judged on (which, judging from JaronK's posts, was his base assumption in placing classes such as factotum).

I couldn't assume the SpC thing (that's a recommended fix, not RAW), and while Sanctified Spells are pretty awesome for Healers, I couldn't assume BoED would be in play (note I don't say core+1 or 2 books is assumed... it's actually core + your own book assumed, with a high likelihood of common books like the completes and a lower chance of less common books).

The Healer is one of those classes that jumps around a LOT with optimization and books used and level and such. Luckily it doesn't matter much, as few people bother to play them. Let's face it, most folks would just prefer a Cleric.

JaronK

[CyberThread]

So still tier 1, just on the weakest end.

[eggynack]

So still tier 1, just on the weakest end.
Possibly maybe. The list is good, maybe even tier one good, but it's a really short list, and I don't know where the line is. It is probably just a weak tier one, but if anything's going to tip the scales, it's going to be that list.

[CyberThread]

as we are talking about class features, do remember that artificer is in teir 1 zone.

[eggynack]

as we are talking about class features, do remember that artificer is in teir 1 zone.
This situation is different from that situation. None of the druid's non-casting related class features have any real impact on his tier. They do have the effect of augmenting his casting in a variety of interesting ways, but a druid with nothing but casting is tier one, and a druid with everything but casting is tier three. Such is the nature of things. Also, we entered into this discussion with the premise that the urban druid's non-casting class features are worse than those of a regular druid, so the tier based entirely on casting is doubly true in this case. The new list is significantly worse than the old one, which might make a difference in tier, but that takes a lot of analysis and understanding to determine for certain.