Weaker Feats

[yougi]

So I'm joining a very, very, VERY low-op group (for example, one is a sword-and-board fighter with 14 Strength and 16 Charisma), I've been asked to tone down my usual op-fu. So I've had this idea to make a character with only those useless feats that no one ever takes: Run, Endurance, Track, Skill-boosting ones.

Does the playground have other such feats in mind that I could add to this build? By the way, I'm not looking for Skill Focus (Speak Language) and other such literally useless feats, but those feats that no one would ever take. Tier 5 feats, if you will.

For your information, the character is not yet defined, but will probably be a Nale-like accumulation of classes that don't mesh too well together. I'm thinking of Ranger/Sorcerer/Monk, or something equally ridiculous.

[Deca4531]

So I'm joining a very, very, VERY low-op group (for example, one is a sword-and-board fighter with 14 Strength and 16 Charisma), I've been asked to tone down my usual op-fu. So I've had this idea to make a character with only those useless feats that no one ever takes: Run, Endurance, Track, Skill-boosting ones.

Does the playground have other such feats in mind that I could add to this build? By the way, I'm not looking for Skill Focus (Speak Language) and other such literally useless feats, but those feats that no one would ever take. Tier 5 feats, if you will.

For your information, the character is not yet defined, but will probably be a Nale-like accumulation of classes that don't mesh too well together. I'm thinking of Ranger/Sorcerer/Monk, or something equally ridiculous.

take Run, that way once everyone starts dieing you can hall-ass.

[Segev]

Personally, I find these sorts of challenges most fun if there's still something towards which you're trying to optimize. That is, a role in the party you want to do well, perhaps one that is oft un-used due to being a subset of higher-tier builds' usual shenanigans.

What do you want to be able to do, what role do you want to play? What is this character's hook as a character and as a PC?

[Tim Proctor]

I think doing this could be perceived as 'throwing a hissy fit' by the DM. I don't know the context of this, but if I told a player to not be OP and no min/maxing and they came back with a character that was bad at everything then I'd assume they were having a tantrum.

If anything I would say to use a sub-optimal feat chain and the baseline, I'd probably go with the Ranger variant that gives wildshape and fast movement, grab:

Run ( Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 99) -->
Animal Devotion (Cheetah Complete Champion, p. 54)
Freerunner ( Complete Scoundrel, p. 77) -->
Fleet of Foot ( Complete Warrior, p. 99) -->
Cheetah's Speed ( Complete Divine, p. 79) -->
Bestial Charge ( Complete Champion, p. 56) -->
Rhinoceros Tribe Charge ( Shining South, p. 21) -->
Powerful Charge ( Miniatures Handbook, p. 27).

[Flickerdart]

Check out the tactical and style feats. Many of them are usable only with a sub-optimal combination of weapons, or do underwhelming things, but there might be something cool in there that becomes viable in low-op.

[Karoht]

So I'm joining a very, very, VERY low-op group (for example, one is a sword-and-board fighter with 14 Strength and 16 Charisma), I've been asked to tone down my usual op-fu. So I've had this idea to make a character with only those useless feats that no one ever takes: Run, Endurance, Track, Skill-boosting ones.

Does the playground have other such feats in mind that I could add to this build? By the way, I'm not looking for Skill Focus (Speak Language) and other such literally useless feats, but those feats that no one would ever take. Tier 5 feats, if you will.

For your information, the character is not yet defined, but will probably be a Nale-like accumulation of classes that don't mesh too well together. I'm thinking of Ranger/Sorcerer/Monk, or something equally ridiculous.
Go Monk.
Take the Dimentional Agility/Assault/Dervish/Savant line of feats.
Teleport around like Nightcrawler, only hit enemies once or twice, leave after images that the rest of the party can use as flanking buddies, and at the end of it all, teleport back to a position of safety, or right back into the middle of the fray and tank the bad guys like a bauss.
You won't mop the floor with the bad guys, but you'll hurt them, then provide a tactical buff for the rest of the party to take advantage of. That build + 2 uberchargers in the party can pretty much clean up most fights alone.
It's not optimal as it sounds, but it's fun, and it's provides opportunity for the rest of the party to be effective/have fun.

I'm also going to completely recommend the tactical/style feats.

Punishing Kick? Stunning Fist? Touch of Serenity? Use those abilities in place of attacks whenever possible. Trip Monks can be really fun as well. Again, you'll provide opportunities for the rest of the party to shine (Flanking Buddy + Prone Target = AC penalty of 6) without underperforming yourself.

Teamwork Feats? Maybe?

[Kioras]

My suggestion would be to play a buffer class, like a bard, and just concentrate on making everyone else better, and feel free to midly optimize, but only in ways that enhance others.

Play a bard like Elan.

[Person_Man]

Weak but fun Feats:

Spirit Sense: Let’s you see an interact with spirits of the recently dead. (A function that is highly situational, and can easily be replaced by a low level spell or wand). Being able to talk to the recently dead whenever opens up a bunch of interesting roleplaying options though. Heroes of Horror pg 124.

Sociable Personality: You can reroll any Diplomacy or Gather Information check. If you just invest in the Skills and this but DON'T go overboard and fully optimize them with magic, this helps out with roleplaying without breaking it. Half-Elf only (which will make you even weaker). Races of Destiny pg 153.

Trivial Knowledge: Whenever you make a Knowledge check or a Bardic Knowledge check, roll twice and use the better result. People sometimes take this to optimize Knowledge Devotion, but if you don't, it's basically a +2 to +5 bonus to know stuff, which is handy if you spend a lot of time roleplaying. Gnome only, Races of Stone pg 145.

Acheron Flurry: You spend a Standard Action to restrict an adjacent enemy to a single Move or Standard action on his next turn. No To-Hit roll, no Save, it just happens. This is usually suboptimal for a variety of reasons (why not just KILL your enemy?), and there are various little restrictions to the Feat. But it’s a great way to prevent a boss enemy from making a full attack or Summoning while your friends pummel him, giving them more of an opportunity to shine in the spotlight. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike and 15 Wis and Dex. Planar Handbook pg 37.

Nymph’s Kiss: +2 circumstance bonus on all Cha related checks, +1 to Saves vs spells and spell-like abilities, and 1 bonus Skill point per level. More Skils generally translates into more utility, but (usually) doesn't add much additional power, since most skills can be duplicated or replaced by magic. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 44.

Fling Ally/Fling Foe: The idea for this is fun. Fastball Special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FastballSpecial). The actual mechanics they wrote for handling it are terrible. Powerful Build or Large size required. Races of Stone.

Defensive feats in general: There's a lot of fairly potent feats that help keep you alive and/or mobile, but DMs generally see them as a lot less powerful then offense and battlefield control feats.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Not feat suggestions but class suggestions to bring up the other players games:
I would look at taking a warblade with white raven maneuvers.
Get all those low OP fighters and CHARGE!

Or a dragonfire inspiration bard and help them dish the damage.

Maybe instead of nerfing yourself, fill the holes they party is leaving. If they need a face, buff up some diplomacy.

Light on strategy, maybe make a marshall.

I would even consider Dragon shaman in a low op party. Some nice group buffs, and they are ok at a lot of things.

Make your team shine!

[Forrestfire]

You know, this might be a game you could bust out the Truenamer and not horribly suck :smallamused:

[herrhauptmann]

If the group already has 4 or 5 players that fill all the roles, why not a support character?
In the past I've used a chainwielding maniac for that. We started play at level 3, and I couldn't fit power attack into my build until level 8 or so. Every feat was focused on tripping or helping my allies get flanking. (Also boosting their flanking bonuses)
If we were fighting something that couldn't be tripped easily, I focused on using Aid Another for the other warriors.

[Fax Celestis]

Here's my suggestion: go druid.

No, no, hear me out.

Trade away your wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid). Take spells like snake's swiftness, girallon's blessing, or sudden stalagmite: things that are either weak damage plus debuff or non-personal buffs. Trade your animal companion for a domain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid#TOC-Nature-Bond-Ex-) (or if your DM is nice, for the Ranger Distracting Attack ACF), cast flame blade, and play supporting melee combatant, buffer, and occasional healer. Choose an elemental theme (I like earth, myself) to use as a baseline to determine your spell selection. If you go with earth, going in as an Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthDwarves), taking the Rootwalker ACF (Dungeonscape), and going into Earth Dreamer (RoS) is thematic without being omgwtf.

Your feats hardly matter, here, so you can do your generally-untouched-feats thing and still have a shtick. When I did this, I took Brew Potion, Power Attack, Pushback, and Elemental Smite (which worked off of my earth elemental grafts I used (MoE)).

The thing is, there's a lot more granularity in the more powerful classes. With a fighter, the difference between an unopped fighter and a high-opped fighter is much smaller than the difference between an unopped druid and a high-opped druid. In this case, this isn't either instance: it's very specifically focused optimization, and it's not 'biggest numbers' op, either. It's "I have a theme, and I'm sticking to it, come hell or high water."

[Tim Proctor]

Trade away your wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid).

If your GM is cool with it go Ranger with wildshape and fast movement option, trade away the wildshape to get an additional fast movement, and the fast movement from a spell-less Ranger CW 13. With the devotion to Cheetah I think that is a land speed of 65. Then all the running feats as listed above call yourself 'Da Flash'.

[turbo164]

Every time you level up, roll a die to see what you take that level in.

Have fun optimizing your Ranger/Bard/Ninja/Duskblade/Hexblade/Wizard/Bard/Barbarian/Scout/Fighter/Dread Necromancer/Ninja.

[hydraa]

Take leadership and play the optimized cohort

[Fax Celestis]

Take leadership and play the optimized cohort

I had a player play my familiar once. That's an option: roll up a strong wizard with improved familiar and play his pet pseudodragon (or whatever).

[hydraa]

Feats to make the DM work
Dream telling
Aftersight (invoke vision of the past)
skywise (know were the moon is)
Investigate

Other feats
Luck feats (Take all luck feats and be 'better lucky than good')

'Environmental' feats in the wrong environment (treefriend in a desert, desert dweller in the arctic)

Master linguist (gain a language each level)

Favored in house

Silver blood (immune to lyncanthropy )

Snatch Trophy (free action to take a trophy)

Mutilator (free action to decapitate slain enemy)

Dauntless (+5 hit points)

Ballista Proficiency

Exotic Armor proficiency/Expert Seige Engineer

Dash (+5 feet in light or no armor)

[Xerlith]

Play Divine Bard3/Fighter2/Prestige Paladin15

Feats: Devoted Performer, Melodic Casting, Lingering Song.


There, now you're MAD as hell, but you can wear fullplate!

From Fighter bonus feats grab Martial Study: Vanguard Strike (or Crusader's Strike), Martial Stance: Leading the Charge for +1 damage/2 levels for everyone in your team (the fighter should like it).

If you feel like going mad, take Dragonfire Inspiration. Which the Devoted Performer does not progress. So you're stuck with +1d6 damage. Probably need to need the Dragontouched feat too (Yay, a feat tax!)

You need high Charisma and at least 16 Wisdom, so you won't have too much HP, your skillpoints will be lacking as well. You'll be needing at least 14 strength, so 10 dexterity is probably the best you'll have.

Flank with the Fighter, initiate Vanguard Strike while Smiting, then both of you whack the enemy with your DFI and +4 from the strike. Fun times. If your strike hits.

Or just go Monk/Paladin with VoP... Nah, probably too strong for this party.


No, come on, you need to strengthen your party's capabilities somehow or this campaign will end up in a TPK very quickly.

Grab White Raven/Devoted Spirit crusader 10/bard10, grab Song of the White Raven, bolster your fighter to have the spotlight you create for him.

Really, talk to your DM about this.
Maybe help your party members optimize their characters a little.

[Karoht]

Be a Divination specialist. Go for it.

[ericgrau]

So I'm joining a very, very, VERY low-op group (for example, one is a sword-and-board fighter with 14 Strength and 16 Charisma), I've been asked to tone down my usual op-fu. So I've had this idea to make a character with only those useless feats that no one ever takes: Run, Endurance, Track, Skill-boosting ones.
There's "useless" and then there's useless & pointless. If you take a bunch of unrelated specialized feats all but 1-2 of them will be totally useless almost like you decided to not take feats at all. I'd take the overspecialized feats but get some synergy going. Skill focus (survival) with your track, perhaps.

An elf with endurance could be ready for night ambushes because he has medium armor and only 4 hours of rest. Plus he gets nice spot and listen bonuses. You could pick up alertness on top of that, and later eyes of the eagle for another +5 spot. The party may scoff at your +9 to spot & +4 to listen at first, but in the end omg you see all foes... so what? They'll start laughing instead and you'll be able to wake them up. Heck you could get the druid/ranger cantrip dawn (Masters of the Wild / Savage Species) to wake up the party if the party doesn't mind splatbooks too much. Now with all that and your elven secret door sense you could also make a good scout. Just make sure you take 10s on your skill checks or use potions of invisibility, sneak back to the party and don't get caught alone. So you're not actually useless and you help out the party. Your class is probably ranger for skills, dawn and endurance. Track comes free. You dip for trapfinding to go with your elven +2, and pick up goggles of minute seeing for another +5. To avoid xp penalties you dual class the two and level them evenly. You don't get much out of sneak attack but full BAB on the other side partly compensates plus you get uncanny dodge and a wide skill selection. Then you can wand dawn for 375 gp to get it early.

I could go on and on but I think you can take it from here, or start again in a completely different direction.

[Fouredged Sword]

This sounds like a job for EXEMPLAR!

[XmonkTad]

Well, you could always do something silly like play a gnome and use feats from savage species to make your prestidigitation better. That way almost any class and it would be low op.

But my personal advice is play a monk/ninja hybrid using ascetic stalked from CScoundrel. It sounds like your group has a lot of new players in it (your DM sounds like an old hand who knows what you can do and doesn't want you overshadowing the new players). If you play a stealth ninja/monk, you'll get to do "stealth sections" on your own. See if you can work with the DM to make these stealth sections a teaching moment for the new players. Need to climb down something? Take 10 on the climb check! Guard sounds the alarm? Use the "withdraw" action. Things like that.

When the party gets into actual combat, you wont be any more useful than the sword and board fighter. The big difference between sudden strike and sneak attack is you can't SS when flanking. This means your big damage dealing ability wont work all the time in regular combat. In the stealth sections, you'll shine!

Your low reliance on magic weapons means the DM can give "buff loot" to whomever needs it.

Flavor yourself like Sherlock Holmes, and have fun explaining mechanics by saying "it's elemental my dear Watson" (or whatever the character's name is).