[3.5] Can a Fighter be broken?

[tamane1]

Flipping through my PH, obviously the fighter is very under powered compared to say a wizard or cleric. But I think I found a way to make fighters awesome at clearing lots of low HD guys in a jiffy.

BAB of at least +10/+5
power att, cleave, greater cleave
dodge, mobility, spring attack
combat expertise, whirlwind attack

*Please let me know if I am using the rules correctly;otherwise this whole idea is crap*

Basically, you get yourself surrounded with low HD baddies. Get your great sword, hit one, then start cleaving and whirlwinding. Once you kill everything in a big circle around you, you spring attack over to another group of baddies, and repeat. If you are using hexes instead of squares for battle grid, and if 2 baddies are standing in each hex, you can kill 32 guys in one round by yourself.

Again, let me know if spring attack works as I think it does(attack once, move, and attack again because of high BAB).

Also, this is only done with the core books. Nothing expanded.

[Vaz]

That is dependant on being surrounded by lots of weak bad guys (and that 'weak' is compared to a Fighter weak, not weak compared to say a Druid). If your DM is sending those types of opponents, he is just catering to you, and making his job more effort on his part.

It is easier for him to send 3-4 party average level+2 opponents at you.

[TroubleBrewing]

BAB of at least +10/+5
power att, cleave, greater cleave
dodge, mobility, spring attack
combat expertise, whirlwind attack

Right away, I notice that you need to be level 10, and have spent 7 of your feats on this one trick.

A 5th level Wizard with Fireball accomplishes the same thing. Said Wizard is also core-only.

[tamane1]

I know you burn a lot of feats on this, but it seems like a cool thing to try. Say the fighter is hired to help protect a castle from a siege and the baddies break down the gate to see one guy standing there to greet them. They swarm him and get cut down in seconds. I'm not saying it would be practical in any other setting, but for this one it seems like fun. And part of the post was to find out if spring attack works as I think it does.

[Segev]

Sure, it's cool to try. It just isn't broken. So have at it and enjoy!

[Gavinfoxx]

At level 10, Wizards are binding planar entities to do their bidding and replace you entirely.

You are hitting things with a stick.

If you want a powerful core mostly nonmagical melee combatant build, read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

That's one where you can actually tank and protect people.

I made a PHB+SRD version at level five:

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

[Qc Storm]

Whirlwind and Cleave are not compatible.

This also relies entirely on you never missing an attack and every little dude having around 40 hp.

[Psyren]

You can break any class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) :smalltongue:

(What you're doing here isn't broken at all)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My toaster oven was broken, so I threw it out. If you mean this in the same sense, then yes, Fighter is broken.

What you've done is create a Fighter who specializes in fighting large groups of opponents who are so weak that the rest of the party can either ignore them, or defeat them in a similar fashion without any investment whatsoever in a similar specialization. Wizard and Sorcerer get Fireball, Cleric and Druid get Flame Strike, so they've invested zero feats and zero class features to be able to defeat that same large group of weak opponents in a single action. Additionally, those spells can be used from several hundred feet away, before the opponents even get close enough to pose a threat. While that Fighter spends a round running into the middle of those opponents to set up his whirlwind, any spellcaster in the party will already be casting their spell and the crowd of enemies will already be dead by the time the Fighter would get to attack.

If you want a strong, useful Fighter, you have to use more than just Core. Go with a large size race such as Half-Ogre, Half-Minotaur, etc. or a race with Powerful Build such as Goliath, and hope you can buy off the level adjustment. Get the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature in Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, and free class features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). Get Combat Reflexes, EWP: Spiked Chain, Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) and its prerequisites, and Knock-Back from Races of Stone and its prerequisites. Put max ranks in Intimidate with the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, get Imperious Command from DotU, and hopefully you can qualify for and take Dreadful Wrath from PGtF. An Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) early to invest all your skill ranks for the greatest return toward Intimidate is highly recommended. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS a few times to get Iron Will and Menacing Demeanor (if you qualify) for 3,000 gold each instead of spending feats on them.

Even with all of the above, you only need nine levels of Fighter. You could easily go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 and still get Weapon Supremacy from PH2 at 20th level. If you're not going to be using most of the above tricks, then you're probably better off not even touching the Fighter class at all.

[Chambers]

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooo.

Unless you've got magic or skills that are effectively magic (Diplomancer), you're not breaking the game.

Well, the Hulking Hurler breaks damage, but that's not Fighter or Core.

[pilvento]

Im having a lot of fun reading all the "NO" posts and im thinking of one of my own. but isntead, ill answer you question related to springattack

You normaly move 30ft, attack once.

You can not move, fullattack +20/+15/+10+/5

You can not move and whirlwind attack all in range at +20

Or with springattack you can move say 15ft, attack once, move 15ft.

and thats it

Whirlwind is FULL ROUND ACTION since is a diferent way of fullatacking

Springattack allows you to split your MOVE ACTION in 2, before and after attacking as a STANDAD action.

[Captnq]

Whirling
- MAGIC ITEM COMPENDIUM (3.5)
Price: +1 bonus
Property: Slashing Melee
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) transmutation
Activation: Full-round (mental)
Description: The hilt of this weapon is twisted into a corkscrew design, and its blade is dramatically curved.
Three times per day, you can use this weapon to make a whirling attack that has a chance of striking all nearby opponents. Instead of making your regular attacks, you instead make one melee attack at your full attack bonus against each opponent within reach of the weapon. This property otherwise functions like the Whirlwind Attack feat.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste.
Synergy (Shadowstrike): For one attack, your melee attack range is an extra five feet. You only make one attack roll when you use whirling. Do the math.
Editor: A +1 bonus to perform a feat with about three thousand prerequisites? This is begging to be in a reach weapon, on top of being hit with a enlarge person spell. Add shadowstrike, put it all on a spiked chain, and once a day you could, in theory, hit everyone within 25 feet of you. Boom goes the dynamite.


Save yourself a lot of headache.

[Qc Storm]

Whirling
- MAGIC ITEM COMPENDIUM (3.5)
Price: +1 bonus
Property: Slashing Melee
Caster Level: 11th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 20) transmutation
Activation: Full-round (mental)
Description: The hilt of this weapon is twisted into a corkscrew design, and its blade is dramatically curved.
Three times per day, you can use this weapon to make a whirling attack that has a chance of striking all nearby opponents. Instead of making your regular attacks, you instead make one melee attack at your full attack bonus against each opponent within reach of the weapon. This property otherwise functions like the Whirlwind Attack feat.
Construction: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste.
Synergy (Shadowstrike): For one attack, your melee attack range is an extra five feet. You only make one attack roll when you use whirling. Do the math.
Editor: A +1 bonus to perform a feat with about three thousand prerequisites? This is begging to be in a reach weapon, on top of being hit with a enlarge person spell. Add shadowstrike, put it all on a spiked chain, and once a day you could, in theory, hit everyone within 25 feet of you. Boom goes the dynamite.


Save yourself a lot of headache.

Whirling, to me, sounds like you need to make an attack roll for each target.

[tamane1]

Thanks for clarifying the spring attack rules for me. That was really the main reason I posted. A lot of the rules in the books aren't clear about exactly what limitations there are.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't this the general gist of the Bag of Rat fighter trick? IIRC it actually worked in 3.0 but not anymore in 3.5.

[Big Fau]

Whirling, to me, sounds like you need to make an attack roll for each target.

You have to do that for Whirlwind Attack anyway.

[zlefin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#whirlwindAttack

using whirlwind prohibits extra attacks gained from all other sources.

and the term broken can be both relative and absolute. A very high-optimization fighter can be broken in a party of low optimization chars; because he breaks the game for the other characters by being too powerful.

[Juntao112]

You would have better luck with the Shock Trooper Leap Attack of Doom... and that's still not that impressive.

[ArcturusV]

Or going for a Dragon/Wolf/Horse/Beast X mounted chargelot type build, if you wanted to get into Powerfully Broken. Been a while since I've run the numbers but I'm pretty sure a good mounted charger can compete with the typical Power Attack build for sheer damage. Better on a Paladin than a Fighter, but still an option.

Course, the other, marginally good, Fighter build you could use is the Kaufman Retrograde. Or otherwise known as being a mounted archer and running away, plinking arrows. Note that until... level 18 or so, and only on "long" range spells, an arrow has the longest range in the game. Combine with superior movement speed/modes from young dragon mounts, or even horses on the less optimal end, and you can make a DM rage when he realizes his BBEG can never hurt you and just either abandon the battle or die to arrows.

Course there are hard counters to archery, and it's hardly effective. But if you build it right you'll be moving at a good 200+ feet per round, hitting targets 1100+ feet away, and never in danger of any enemy you're aware of actually hurting you.

Course DM screw/setting screw may apply to you when your DM suddenly decides all combat happens indoors anymore.

[kaminiwa]

Back in 3.0 you could get Supreme Cleave from a couple prestige classes, that let you take a 5' step after EVERY cleave, which combined with 3.0 Whirlwind, let you do approximately this.

I have a setting where there's an Epic Commoner that uses this trick to harvest his entire field in a single round, by doing cleaving attacks with a sickle on each individual grain. I forget what trick I used to avoid "Natural 1 always misses", alas.

In 3.5? Fighters Aren't Allowed To Have Nice Things.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Back in 3.0 you could get Supreme Cleave from a couple prestige classes, that let you take a 5' step after EVERY cleave, which combined with 3.0 Whirlwind, let you do approximately this.

Not so. The standard rule was you get to make an immediate cleave attack without doing anything else, including making a 5-ft. step. Supreme Cleave allowed you to take the one 5-ft. step you're permitted in a round before making that cleave attack. It did not in any way override the standard limit of one 5-ft. step per round.

[TuggyNE]

Fighters can be broken, yes. But when they are, they tend not to look like Fighters anymore. (In fact, they often look rather unlike anything ever seen before.)

This is not an example of broken; this is an example of decent competence, no more.

[Red_Death01]

Mainly Fighter is a class that you only take 2 levels in if you're going to be melee/physical range oriented.... or 6 if you're going for the dungeoncrasher variant. It is a dip class for 2 fighter bonus feats (And sometimes you ignore the class all together if you don't need to 2 extra feats)

As someone that enjoys playing melee I've gotta recommend Barbarian or Rogue over a fighter. They just fall too far behind. Now- if you're allowed Tome of Battle. Melee becomes a bit more.... interestingly broken. Good ol' "Warblade"

[Ansem]

No.

Feats can't make up for the fact it lacks anything real (and the feats that can up it a bit are out of the question since it can never qualify for them)
Besides a bonus on attack and damage rolls, it has nothing. It's damage output is lower than other classes, it has no support abilities like buffs and can't cripple the opponment with debuff.

The only reason you ever take a fighter is because you need the feats and BAB to get into a PrC asap. If you are still a fighter after 5 levels you need to wake up and rethink your character concept.

[Ashtagon]

If you are using hexes instead of squares for battle grid, and if 2 baddies are standing in each hex, you can kill 32 guys in one round by yourself.

Only way you'll get 2 bad guys in one square is if they are Tiny or smaller. Not a lot of those that are level-appropriate.

Also, at level 10, anything you are likely to be one-shotting (necessary for the cleave to work at all) is too low-level for you to actually earn XP from killing.

[Keneth]

Fighters are pretty easy to break. It's like a DC 20 Strength check or something like that.

[Lans]

A fighter can be broken, swift demoralize+imperious command+never outnumbered, and fell shot boomerang dazeing

The wizard is just going to be more broken

[killem2]

I know people won't like the racial hit dice, but +3 LA is able to be bought off pre 20.

Would give you ALOT of cool things and you'd be super strong and large!