Some ideas to bat around

[gr8artist]

Starting a new PF campaign in the nearish future, and I'm still deciding on a few things. I would like the playground's input.
Disclaimer: I'm not particularly worried about any of the players being overpowered. We play for fun and flavor mostly, and we like to optimize. However, I'm aware of inherent balance issues, and some of these ideas are directed toward fixing them.
I'm going to list the ideas in numbered order. Please respond with the number of the idea you're conversing about, to avoid confusion.

1. Starting with NPC levels, retraining at about 4th into PC levels. Three kinds of Adept, based on the different types of magic (arcane, divine, natural). NPC levels can only be retrained into similar classes/archetypes, like Warrior into Barbarian or Skulking Slayer Rogue, not Wizard.
This is to give a sense of helplessness at the start, making the players weak and without useful skills, in an attempt to establish a challenging survival setting. Some changes to the Survival skill and early level spells will be necessary.
Striked. After talking with the players, this idea has been scrapped.

2. Variable point buy based on class tier and MAD qualities. I'll try dividing it into "high" (16 pts) and "low" (11 points) point buy. People planning to multiclass (not dip) between high and low pb classes will get high points. This obviously needs some work, as I'd like to have a structure and not do each character's build ad-hoc and on-the-fly. My players usually have a good idea of what they want to end up with.
This is intended to ease the burden on MAD classes, and dampen the importance of min/maxing.

3. (updated) Making all spells require a d20 roll. The environment has been corrupted, and the magic in the world doesn't behave as it should when called upon. Making magic is challenging, as the threads must first be untangled before they can be woven together. Areas with a higher magical inclination or deeper history would be even more challenging. This leads to a constant SR throughout the whole world. At the low end, maybe 3 or 5, but in the more challenging dungeons it may get as high as 10 or 12. When casting a spell against a creature with SR, you make one check and apply it to both instances of resistance.
Another point is to switch saves and save DC's around; casters would check with 1d20+save DC bonuses instead of a static 10+, and the victims would have a static 10+save bonuses instead of 1d20+. I know that attack+save spells, like disintegrate, then get really roll heavy, and it's my main hesitation. If I implement the SR rule, then I will probably leave saves how they are.
This is in preparation for the fumble rules I want to introduce, as well as to make spellcasts more interesting and risky. It also allows me to poke and prod at party dynamics by making the wizard more or less dependable.
A small area can be purified with a short ritual, and a Spellcraft check (DC 10). The width of the purified circle is 5 ft. +5 ft. for every 5 by which you beat the DC (so 15 = 2x2, 20 = 3x3, 25 = 4x4, etc.). Spells cast within the circle ignore environmental SR, but still check against creature specific SR when applicable. The circle lasts for a number of rounds equal to your casting modifier, and purifying the circle is a 1-round action.
Additional rituals (TBD) may grant special bonuses to spells and whatnot within their area, because that's cool.

4. My group likes to play with fumbles, but we don't have a well established way to work them yet. The fumble rules: Only natural 1's can fumble, and they must be confirmed with a failed confirmation roll. If your confirmation roll beats the desired value, then the natural 1 is just a miss. Fumbling imposes a minor penalty on you until the start of your next turn, or allows an attack of opportunity from your enemy. Fumbling is caused by the stress of battle and unexpected circumstances in the environment or enemy tactics, not by exaggeratedly foolish actions or stupid, rooky mistakes.
This is to establish a usable, mechanical fumble effect. The effect of a fumble will vary on several factors, but I'm currently thinking that provoking an AoO, damaging a weapon, and taking a penalty on your AC or the rest of your attacks are the worst a fighter can get. Wizard fumbles will be more interesting, possibly fizzling an extra spell slot or imposing a penalty for a short duration.

5. Regional training and the city of origin will play a large part in character traits and qualities. Races will have around 10 race points in genetic, physical traits, while things like weapon familiarity or defensive training bonuses will constitute another 5 "race" points and be dependent on the character's origin.
This is a thematic idea, as the different towns and locations are difficult to travel between, and each location would develop very differently. Within each town, race would not matter, as all are fighting equally for survival, though other towns would train their youth differently.

6. Partial languages. A single rank in Linguistics is enough to teach you how to read a new language, or how to speak it, but not both. You would still be able to recognize the languages you can read if you heard them, and vice-versa, but you couldn't gain any information without a successful check. Under certain circumstances, this rule is waived for specific languages, allowing you to read and speak that language for only 1 rank. Such circumstances would include being a member of the race to which that language belongs (orcs and orcish, etc.) or already having learned a similar language (such as sylvan and druidic). New characters will start with regional language(s) and Trav'ler, a crude common tongue useful only for conveying simple commands and requests. Characters with high intelligence gain languages as though spending their intelligence bonus as ranks for earning additional languages. (So an elf from the north-west with 14 int would know trav'ler, northern, and western completely. He could choose elven (complete) for 1 bonus, learn to read or speak a language for 1 bonus, or learn another language completely for both his bonuses.)
This is mostly a nerf to the overpowered Linguistics skill, which always seemed kinda' bland to me. Spells like comprehend languages will either function differently, or be banned for obvious thematic reasons.

7. Progressive feats. I don't want to frontload power by rolling feats in together at the start, but I like the way that PF did progressive bonuses for skills and such. At a certain point (roughly level 10) the feat gets better. I would do the same thing for many feat chains. Improved/greater combat maneuvers and the +2 save/1 per-day reroll chains seem like obvious choices. Feats would automatically upgrade when prerequisites were met. If there are no additional prerequisites for the upgraded feat, then it upgrades under other circumstances. (guess I need to look over the feat list and determine which ones upgrade when.)
This is again a buff to the mundanes, who could really use such feats but need to save them for better stuff. Also trying to fix what many believe are flaws in PF's design, making CM's harder to pull off.

8. Spell component pouches will come in a variety of types, based mostly around the spell schools, and will have limited uses. For example, a lesser evocation pouch might hold enough components for 25 spells from the evocation school, but none of the ingredients would be usable for spells 4th level and higher. Spell components will become more generalized, and may deteriorate after a certain amount of time. The better schools (Trans and Conj, for example) might require more ingredients, giving you less uses for your buck, or might deteriorate more quickly.
This is a slight tweak to wizards, mostly, in an attempt to bring them closer to balance with sorcerers. Also, it can be used to restrict some of the players favorite spells, should I wish to make a trivial quest more challenging or interesting.
Scrapped, as book-keeping is not a good thing in our group. Instead, spell component pouches will be universal, will have charges, and can be refilled with uncommon material harvested from enemies. My players like that kind of stuff. Spells will consume a number of charges equal to the spell's level. Pouches come with 50 charges.

9. We're going to try out the Incantation rules from 3.5. Basically, with challenging skill checks, anyone can cast a spell with a 10-minute casting time. I'm going to tweak it, and make more types of incantations than those listed, but they'll still be hard to find. Incantations do not require spell slots, so wizards might like them too. The main concern is that incantations are only usable when you have a lot of time to prepare for a situation.
This is partly to bring more magic to the mundanes, and because I like the idea of ritual magic. UMD is getting a slight nerf, so this gives rogues and other skill monkeys a portion of that power back.

10. Some of the DnD staple magic items are getting adjusted. Wands will function differently, because the 50-charges of a spell on a stick never really sounded like a "wand" to me. And, frankly, we used a lot of wands in the last campaign. Wands will now serve as foci for spells of a certain school. You might have an evocation wand, and having it replaces the need for your SCP when casting evocation spells. Better wands will grant a CL bonus for their school, or grant some other wondrous benefit. Staves will likely serve the function of wands and rods combined. Rods will be rare items, basically 1-handed staves or the like. Magic item creation will be much more challenging.
More caster nerfing, and giving their items the flavor I've always felt was lacking. No longer will the caster be filling his bag with dozens of free utility spells.

Updated Saturday 10/4, with numbers 9 and 10, and doing away with some of the old suggestions. Number 2, 3, 7, and 8 have been updated.

[Barstro]

3. Making all spells require a d20 roll. I'm not sure if I want to make it a spellcraft check or what, but I want casters to be under the same pressure and variability that fighters are under.

The issue I have with that line of thinking (buy your results may vary) is that this only hurts low level magic users, and they are already the weakest class.* A fighter can swing a sword all day. A wizard can cast a couple spells, and then spend the rest of his time avoiding combat. Throw in a miss chance, and now he might be able to cast a couple spells per day.

When a fighter misses with his attack, he still has his armor to protect him. When a wizard misses an attack, he still has a bloodstained robe covering his corpse.

*Level 20 wizard can create a world (better than the)
Level 20 fighter can hit ten guys in one round (better than the)
Level 1 fighter hit one guy for ten rounds, and then keep going (better than the)
Level 1 wizard can cast magic missile once and then hide the rest of the day.

[Asteron]

3. Making all spells require a d20 roll. I'm not sure if I want to make it a spellcraft check or what, but I want casters to be under the same pressure and variability that fighters are under. My current plan is to switch saves and save DC's around; casters would check with 1d20+save DC bonuses instead of a static 10+, and the victims would have a static 10+save bonuses instead of 1d20+. I know that attack+save spells, like disintegrate, then get really roll heavy, and it's my main hesitation

Basically like the way 4e does things? Fort, Ref and Will defenses instead of saves?

[Karoht]

3. Making all spells require a d20 roll. I'm not sure if I want to make it a spellcraft check or what, but I want casters to be under the same pressure and variability that fighters are under. My current plan is to switch saves and save DC's around; casters would check with 1d20+save DC bonuses instead of a static 10+, and the victims would have a static 10+save bonuses instead of 1d20+. I know that attack+save spells, like disintegrate, then get really roll heavy, and it's my main hesitation. Any spell without the need to check an attack roll, save, or caster level, would probably become a skill check (spellcraft).
This is in preparation for the fumble rules I want to introduce, as well as to make spellcasts more interesting.
Your fumble rules don't sound too bad.
In relation to requiring a D20 roll for all spells, why not just make Spell Resistance a more prevailant stat among your bad guys? Yeah, there are spells that don't deal with spell resistance, but there it is. You could houserule that all spells have to interact with spell resistance (except for beneficial/harmless of course), and that none bipass it, but that might be a bit heavy handed.
At low levels, more spell resistance can be crippling, at higher levels it becomes nearly trivial. Though Pathfinder did make it a bit harder to beat the DC. It just makes feats like Spell Penetration and Greater SP more useful, typically making it more prevailant

Also, I've found very few DM's use Aburation well. Not every Sorc/Wizard is slinging around Magic Missle and Fireball. Some of them actually bother to learn how to stop magic from killing them. Some of them actually bother to spend spell slots on buffing up their friends rather than just themselves.

[gr8artist]

The issue I have with that line of thinking (but your results may vary) is that this only hurts low level magic users, and they are already the weakest class.
An excellent point, since skill specialization gets too easy late game. Caster level checks seem the way to go, then, which leads us to...

In relation to requiring a D20 roll for all spells, why not just make Spell Resistance a more prevalent stat among your bad guys? Yeah, there are spells that don't deal with spell resistance, but there it is. You could houserule that all spells have to interact with spell resistance (except for beneficial/harmless of course), and that none bypass it, but that might be a bit heavy handed.
So, I think that seems like a good idea. Give every creature a small amount of SR, just enough to force a check needing a natural result of about 7. A 33% chance to fail seems fair. CL is harder to optimize than most other checks.


Basically like the way 4e does things? Fort, Ref and Will defenses instead of saves?
I wouldn't know. Every time someone mentions 4e, my 2e GF gives them... the look. I played Gamma World a while back, but we didn't really have a lot of spell-like combat.
But yeah, the attacker rolls and adds bonuses, and compares to a standardized defense value.

Thanks for the quick responses. I'm adding another item to the list: Combined/progressive feats.

[Karoht]

An excellent point, since skill specialization gets too easy late game. Caster level checks seem the way to go, then, which leads us to...

So, I think that seems like a good idea. Give every creature a small amount of SR, just enough to force a check needing a natural result of about 7. A 33% chance to fail seems fair. CL is harder to optimize than most other checks.
CL + Feats turns SR 5 + HD into 1 + HD.
If you were to give everything SR 3+ HD as a baseline AND state that every spell required a spell resistance check, even if it says SR: No, that would be pretty reasonable to get around. It makes taking Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen worth while, but not mission critical. Then have some enemies with higher spell pen and off you go.

However, I'm not in favor of having all spells require a SR check, even if the spell is SR: No. I just want to be clear that this is not something I advocate.

Good luck!

[gr8artist]

Thanks for the feedback.
Why don't you like the idea of all spells requiring a spell pen check?
Flavor wise, the world was trashed in something like a magical cataclysm. It would be easy to say that the standard SR comes not from the creatures you fight, but from shattered threads of magic in the air, seeking to pull apart the fabric of your spellwork.

Also, with idea #7 on the board, Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen would become 1 feat, giving you +2 on CL checks for the first few levels, and +4 afterward.

I'm also trying to think of some way to make magic take longer to perform. I prefer the idea of ritual magic (see the TV show "Supernatural" for an idea of what I mean if you're not sure) more than the spell-slinging of D&D.
The obvious leap is to make all spells take 1 action longer than normal. Quickened become move actions, standard become 1 round, and 1 round become 2 rounds. It hurts summons, but wah.
Alternatively, perhaps taking longer on the spell increases CL, salvages the fizzled spell, or improves its effect?
Thoughts?

[Xunthrae]

I'm also trying to think of some way to make magic take longer to perform. I prefer the idea of ritual magic (see the TV show "Supernatural" for an idea of what I mean if you're not sure) more than the spell-slinging of D&D.


Though in "Supernatural" they do have some spell slinging people. As an example, I can't remember the episode for the life of me, there was that witch couple that had magical spats all the time and literally hand waved the brothers attempts to stop them. The only thing I would think is weird with the SR:no affects(effects?) being stopped by SR would be spells like web. It's SR:no but by your rules, if I'm reading them right, the web could possibly not get through their SR.

Though, overall, I wouldn't mind playing in a campaign like this. It's a different take and I think would be interesting to do

Good luck with more help :smallsmile:

[gr8artist]

True. There have been a few spell-slingers, but that could be described in dnd terms as SLA's or SU's in action. Most of the magic is ingredients, incantations, etc...
If I increase the casting time of spells, then I'll increase their dependability as well. Extra time spent charging a fireball would improve the end result or the likelyhood of beating the targets with high ref saves.

3. About the SR thing...
Basically, the SR would belong to the environment. Areas nearer to the sites of great disaster would be more challenging, with a higher ambient SR. Areas far removed from danger and action might have lower SR's. The SR tag in the spell mechanics determines if any SR the creature has can be applied. If the spell is SR:no, then the spell functions as intended if you can beat at least the environmental SR. If the spell is SR: yes, then the spell functions if you beat at least the creature's SR. Environmental SR will likely never get so bad that its higher than an equivalent creature's SR, so SR:no spells will still be preferred over SR:yes ones for their dependability.

[Karoht]

The problem I have with SR: No spells suddenly having to deal with SR is twofold.
1-It just feels like a global nerf.
2-If I push an anvil off a ladder onto your head, it doesn't check for SR. So why would summoning a cube of lead? Lack of SR is more or less Conjuration school's schtick.

However, if the environmental SR is low enough in most areas (towns, on the road traveling) and high enough in only a select group of areas (in the dungeons themselves, inside certain castles, inside the dragon's cave, etc) then it feels much more environmental and less like an arbitrary global nerf.

And if SR: No spells only have to deal with the environmental that doesn't sound too terrible. The environmental SR will need to be pretty low most of the time though.
Just be aware that your divine caster is going to have a heck of a time just casting cure light wounds, nevermind that neutralize poison before someone gets crippled by a Dex damage poison trap.
"Don't worry guys, I prepared Neutralize Poison today... oh snap it fizzled. And it was the only one I prepared. Sorry dude, you better make those fort saves or your going to die."
Meanwhile, supernatural means of healing/restoration, which don't care about SR, are going to be extremely valued.
Channel Energy, Paladin Mercy's to remove debuffs, etc.
Domain powers are usually SU, so they'll be having no issues at all.

[gr8artist]

The problem I have with SR: No spells suddenly having to deal with SR is twofold.
1-It just feels like a global nerf.
It is, to casters.

2-If I push an anvil off a ladder onto your head, it doesn't check for SR. So why would summoning a cube of lead? Lack of SR is more or less Conjuration school's schtick.
Well, assuming you carried the anvil to the top of the ladder, then yeah, there's no magic involved and no SR. But if you conjured the ladder, or levitated the anvil, then you made magic, and that's tricky.

However, if the environmental SR is low enough in most areas (towns, on the road traveling) and high enough in only a select group of areas (in the dungeons themselves, inside certain castles, inside the dragon's cave, etc) then it feels much more environmental and less like an arbitrary global nerf.

And if SR: No spells only have to deal with the environmental that doesn't sound too terrible. The environmental SR will need to be pretty low most of the time though.
Yep.

Just be aware that your divine caster is going to have a heck of a time just casting cure light wounds, nevermind that neutralize poison before someone gets crippled by a Dex damage poison trap.
"Don't worry guys, I prepared Neutralize Poison today... oh snap it fizzled. And it was the only one I prepared. Sorry dude, you better make those fort saves or you're going to die."
Exactly as intended. You made a mistake, and now your life is in the hands of your comrade. Hopefully he's up to the challenge.

Meanwhile, supernatural means of healing/restoration, which don't care about SR, are going to be extremely valued.
Channel Energy, Paladin Mercy's to remove debuffs, etc.
Domain powers are usually SU, so they'll be having no issues at all.
Yep, that's fine. Other than LoH and Channel Energy, most of the awesome class features that are so flavorful get swept under the rug as the spells exceed them in power. I hope my players come to value their abilities more, and the heal skill will finally be useful.

[gr8artist]

Bump, and adding number 8: Spell component pouches.

[Karoht]

It is, to casters.Which was your stated intention, but global nerfs never feel great, regardless of the intentions.
If you balance the environmental SR very carefully, this should work out without much issue.


Yep, that's fine. Other than LoH and Channel Energy, most of the awesome class features that are so flavorful get swept under the rug as the spells exceed them in power. I hope my players come to value their abilities more, and the heal skill will finally be useful.Thankfully, Paladin Mercies get rid of all kinds of ailments. Even Channel Energy can be used to remove fear if you get the right feat/s. Those two abilities right there are going to be mission critical. I sincerely hope you get a Paladin and a Cleric/Oracle in your party when you playtest these ideas/this world.


8. Spell component pouches will come in a variety of types, based mostly around the spell schools, and will have limited uses. For example, a lesser evocation pouch might hold enough components for 25 spells from the evocation school, but none of the ingredients would be usable for spells 4th level and higher. Spell components will become more generalized, and may deteriorate after a certain amount of time. The better schools (Trans and Conj, for example) might require more ingredients, giving you less uses for your buck, or might deteriorate more quickly.
This is a slight tweak to wizards, mostly, in an attempt to bring them closer to balance with sorcerers. Also, it can be used to restrict some of the players favorite spells, should I wish to make a trivial quest more challenging or interesting.
Nifty.
So to clarify, lets use two examples.
1-Lets say I'm a Sorcerer. I have a basic spell component pouch, which grants me the ability to cast any 25 spells of [insert school]. Any time I cast any spell, I mark off 1 mark from my component pouch of the corrisponding school?

2-Lets say I'm a Sorcerer who took the False Priest Archetype, which gives me False Focus. To keep this brief, False Focus basically acts as Eschew materials, but instead of 1GP it's limit is 100GP, so long as I have a Material Focus (a holy symbol) on my person worth 100GP or more. What happens now?

Follow up question, how many pouches can fit on a belt? One for each school, or less?

[gr8artist]

The global casting change also means that casters can crit with spellcasts. I'll likely allow a "critted" spell to function as if a single +1 or +2 MM had been applied to it, or something like that. I'm trying to make spellcasting more interesting.
Hopefully the melee players will enjoy the reduced feat tax, and can get some use out of PF's combat maneuver system.

I sincerely hope you get a Paladin and a Cleric/Oracle in your party when you playtest these ideas/this world.
I probably will. The party usually likes to stay balanced, but in the last campaign we all played divine characters of some type, so they might stray away from clerics and paladins.
They'll have access to potions and scrolls and such at about level 4. If I don't have any healers, I may allow an arcane caster to learn the cure spells at a higher level than normal, or somesuch.

1-Lets say I'm a Sorcerer. I have a basic spell component pouch, which grants me the ability to cast any 25 spells of [insert school]. Any time I cast any spell, I mark off 1 mark from my component pouch of the corrisponding school?
Yes, like arrows in a quiver. Keep in mind that sorcerors get Eschew materials for free at 1st level. I may allow them to change this, choosing either V, S, or M components to ignore. That way, it feels as if every sorceror has their own take on their spells. I know that removing S components allows for all kinds of weird uses, like casting in a grapple. But they'd still need the M components, so sundering spell pouches becomes a valid tactic.

2-Lets say I'm a Sorcerer who took the False Priest Archetype, which gives me False Focus. To keep this brief, False Focus basically acts as Eschew materials, but instead of 1GP it's limit is 100GP, so long as I have a Material Focus (a holy symbol) on my person worth 100GP or more. What happens now?
Well that's a good question. I think the flavor of that archetype is more interesting than the houserules I'm mentioning, so I'd let it swing. I may decide to allow a false focus or somesuch to be valid for only a certain number of schools. So, if your symbol was a burning sun, it might work for conjuration, evocation, aburation, and illusion; you could not use it to cast necromancy, enchantment, or transmutation.

Follow up question, how many pouches can fit on a belt? One for each school, or less?
I'll go ahead and say all of them, I don't see why not. It's getting complicated enough as it is.

[OldTrees1]

Starting a new campaign in the nearish future, 2. Variable point buy based on class tier. 11 points for the high end casters, 15 for the mundanes. These points will be distributed throughout the NPC levels, so taking 4 levels in Warrior will get you an end result of 15 points, while taking only levels of Adept (arcane) will get you 11.
This is intended to ease the burden on MAD classes, and dampen the importance of min/maxing.

So a lower point buy than normal.

The 'Wizard' would have 16 Int, 9 Con and the rest 8s
The 'Fighter' would have 14 Str, 12 Con, 13 Dex and the rest 8s
The 'Rogue' would have 14 Int, 13 Dex, 12 Con and the rest 8s

Does this help the MAD classes? I would compare to a flat 32 point buy.

The 'Wizard' would have 18 Int, 18 Con and the rest 8s
The 'Fighter' would have 16 Str, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 14 Int and the rest 10s
The 'Rogue' would have 16 Int, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Str and the rest 10s

In your opinion, which of these is more successful at easing the burden on MAD classes?

Now obviously you can combine them by giving the wizard a 25pt buy and the mundanes a 32 point buy

The 'Wizard' would have 18 Int, 14 Con, 10 Dex, 9 Wis and the rest 8s
The 'Fighter' would have 16 Str, 16 Con, 14 Dex, 14 Int and the rest 10s
The 'Rogue' would have 16 Int, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Str and the rest 10s

[gr8artist]

I realize that my opening statements didn't specify PF after I'd edited them, so they've been updated. 3.5 material may be included, but our point by will be by PF standards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/character-creation).
The 11-point wizard you'd described would end up with 17/14/9/8/8/8
The 15-point fighter would have 16/16/11/8/8/8.
A low-fantasy setting is 10 points. Standard 15, and high fantasy 20. Perhaps I should re-evaluate my numbers, and give them 13-18 points. Also, my group's not real big on min/maxing, so I doubt they'd drop half their scores to negatives.

Characters will also get 2 ability score increases at 4th level when they re-train, and additional increases at every even level, rather than every 4th.
I'll be limiting spells and magical items available to them, so hopefully they'll build more well-rounded characters than optimized casters.

[Karoht]

The global casting change also means that casters can crit with spellcasts. I'll likely allow a "critted" spell to function as if a single +1 or +2 MM had been applied to it, or something like that. I'm trying to make spellcasting more interesting.
Hopefully the melee players will enjoy the reduced feat tax, and can get some use out of PF's combat maneuver system.Crit spells possibly getting free metamagic? Oh baby, pass the butter!


Yes, like arrows in a quiver. Keep in mind that sorcerors get Eschew materials for free at 1st level. I may allow them to change this, choosing either V, S, or M components to ignore. That way, it feels as if every sorceror has their own take on their spells. I know that removing S components allows for all kinds of weird uses, like casting in a grapple. But they'd still need the M components, so sundering spell pouches becomes a valid tactic.That is pretty nifty. I'd personally probably take ignore V because free Silent Spell is incredibly useful. However, if I disliked the book keeping of components, ignoring M is pretty awesome. You will want to set a cap on that, otherwise silly things happen like no cost Wish being a thing at some point. Set the cap to adjust with level maybe?


I'll go ahead and say all of them, I don't see why not. It's getting complicated enough as it is.If certain pouches only work for certain spell level ranges, and you need different ones for each spell school, that is a lot of pouches on a belt. But hey, if all you really want is the book keeping to be done and don't really care about the space the component pouches take up, that works.

[OldTrees1]

@gr8artist
Oh. My mistake for assuming 3.5.

I personally have found that the more points given the less of a gap between SAD and MAD. However it looks like you have that well in hand.

[unseenmage]

Just dropped by to say that when I saw the thread title I thought for sure this was a Batman-Wizard thread discussing specializing in dual wielding Bigby's Slapping Hand. :smallbiggrin:

[gr8artist]

The option to ignore V, S, F, or M (a permanent choice) would help flavor casters, I feel. It also makes the silent/still MM's more usable, needing only one +1 MM to get a totally stealthy spell.
Eschew Materials, or the new Sorcerer ability to ignore a spell component type, would apply only to materials worth less than a gold. It still serves to negate the purpose of the SCP, but the higher end spells like wish and permanency would still have their material costs.
Higher end SCP's would work for lower level spells; a mid-grade evocation pouch can be used to cast any evocation spell up to 6th level. So, you should never need more than 1 pouch for each school.
I'd also have mixed-purpose pouches, usable for more than one school, but priced more steeply or with less charges.
Wands probably not be charged items, to prevent confusion. I would probably make them some sort of school focus; an evocation wand would serve the same purpose as an evocation spell pouch, and probably increase his spell power as well.

[Fosco the Swift]

Going off what you were saying wtih the enviroment fighting your magic and the ritual ideas, why not give spellcasters a way to counteract the effect slightly?
Idea 1- When you cast a spell in an area for he first time you make the SR check, if you do not move then the next time you cast a spell you do not need to make the check, because oyou rewove the threads of magic, and don't need to do it again. But if you move even a 5 foot step, the threads retangle and you need to make the check again.
Idea 2- The idea of the rituals is cool, so why not take it a step further. As a full round action you create a sphere around you were the magic threads become rewoven. The area can last 1/2 your level+ int modifier or similar. The dice check is 10 if its a caster level check or 15 if its a spellcraft check (GM chooses). For every 5 you beat the spellcraft check by the area increases by 5ft, or for every 2 or 3 (GM choice) you beat the CL check by you increase it by 5ft. Inside the ritual area you can cast without making the enviromental SR checks. Sound any good?

[Xunthrae]

I think that the Ideas Fosco put forward would be really interesting to work with. It would make casters really have to think about positioning and add a extra dynamic I, as a player, would really enjoy.

How would wands work if you made them chargeless? Since one of the most common uses I see for them is to put a spell that is useful, but not one you want to either A.) Learn, if you are a Sorc, or B.) prepare often as a wizard. Would it be a CL bump for a certain school, or could it be used to spontaneously cast a spell that is stored inside it? For the second option I think it should still have charges as well as using up a spell slot. That could be a way to give both Sorcs and Wizards a way to access spells they don't always need, but are really nice to have. Of course this is with all the normal restrictions wands normally have. It's just an idea i threw together so if it has flaws feel free to pick it apart. And if its not that good idea *shrug* that's fine too.

I'm really curious where your concept is going to go, keep it up!

[Karoht]

The option to ignore V, S, F, or M (a permanent choice) would help flavor casters, I feel. It also makes the silent/still MM's more usable, needing only one +1 MM to get a totally stealthy spell.
Eschew Materials, or the new Sorcerer ability to ignore a spell component type, would apply only to materials worth less than a gold. It still serves to negate the purpose of the SCP, but the higher end spells like wish and permanency would still have their material costs.
Higher end SCP's would work for lower level spells; a mid-grade evocation pouch can be used to cast any evocation spell up to 6th level. So, you should never need more than 1 pouch for each school.
I'd also have mixed-purpose pouches, usable for more than one school, but priced more steeply or with less charges.
Wands probably not be charged items, to prevent confusion. I would probably make them some sort of school focus; an evocation wand would serve the same purpose as an evocation spell pouch, and probably increase his spell power as well.
I think I'm going to need to see these pouches stat'd out and priced out, but otherwise this is all sounding great.
Casters always need to roll something, but they get a benefit if they roll a 20 on Spell-pen, potentially get free metamagic, and actually have to track their spell components in a meaningful way.

[gr8artist]

Frosco, your first idea is interesting. If I were to allow it, I would let them take a 5' step away. They would shape the threads around them, not just the ones directly overhead.
I like the second idea more, though. Letting casters spend extra time prepping a caster's zone. It opens up some other options for feats and whatnot down the line, like making a secondary check when casting the circle, and granting X bonus to all spells cast from within it.
So how about this for the base rule:
The natural magical energy present in the world is twisted and corrupt. Casting a spell using these damaged energies is challenging; casters must succeed on a check to overcome Spell Resistance in order to cast any spell, regardless of target or purpose. The DC of this check (the "environmental SR") will be low in most areas (5-10) but may become more challenging in areas of great importance or legend (10-20). A successful spellcraft check (DC 10 + environmental SR) will reveal the relative level of challenge in an area. Rolling a natural 1 or natural 20 on a check to overcome Spell Resistance may result in a critical success or critical fumble, as detailed elsewhere.
Casters who wish to avoid such hassles learn to create "circles," areas where natural magic has been purified and is more easily used. Creating a circle is a 1-round action and requires a successful caster level check against the environmental SR. The circle has a diameter of 5 ft., plus 5 ft. for every 5 by which you beat the SR. Spells cast from within such a circle ignore natural SR, though checks against creatures' SR might still be necessary. A circle lasts for 1 round for every point in its creators casting modifier (Int for wizards, Cha for sorcerors, etc.).

(Would it make more sense to just write a new cantrip/orison called "Mage's Circle" with a 1-round casting time and the effects listed above?)

Regarding the wands... They wouldn't function like they do in DnD, they'd work like in every other fantasy setting. Wands work as a focus for the wizard, allowing him to direct and control the energy of magic easier. If you have a wand, you get a bonus to overcome SR for the schools the wand is associated with. Wands would probably be good for 1, 2, or 3 schools, depending on quality. So, a lesser wand would give a +2 bonus for evocation. A standard would give +2 to evoc and trans, and the greater would give a +2 for evoc, trans, and conj.

[Red Fel]

(Would it make more sense to just write a new cantrip/orison called "Mage's Circle" with a 1-round casting time and the effects listed above?)

So, your solution to the challenge of casting spells... Is to create a spell? I wouldn't advise that, personally. It feels like cheating. Make them work for it; it adds flavor.

For example, if you're a divine caster, maybe your magic circles involve holy symbols, incense, and prayer. If your magic involves a pact with dark powers, perhaps you need some blood on the ground, or a desecrated corpse. If you're an int-based caster, maybe you need elaborate alchemical or mathematical symbols in a perfectly-proportioned ring. Having the players actually craft their magic circles is a great way to add flavor - and allows the players to observe when an enemy has done the same thing. ("You walk into a room. Your nostrils are immediately bombarded with the stench of rotting flesh. Blood patterns mark the floor into five triangles radiating out from a central ring. In the middle of that ring is an altar, the top of which resembles the leftovers from a butcher's block." Bammo, instant flavor.)

But creating a spell as a shortcut to overcome the difficulty with casting spells? It just seems kind of cheap.

[gr8artist]

Well, the casting of the cantrip would still involve all of the techniques you're describing. I just figured it would make it easier to list out all the specifics like that than to have the players try and figure out if it's a Su, Sp, Ex, or whatever.
I think I'll make the circle-making a Sp, since that's what it's most like. It will still have a "casting" time of 1 round.

[Fosco the Swift]

I'm personally with Red Fel, making the reweaving a spell would make it simpler, but the idea of a Homebrew is to have flavor, and the way he descibed iit makes it very intersting sounding.
The idea that wands become more of a spell empowerer is fairly interesting, and it would make scrolls a little more useful because they wouldn't be trumped by the "50 charge wand". You could split the wands into their seperate schools, evocation and the like. Each wand gives the SR penetration bonus equal to the "spell level". For example, you could make a 2nd level evocation wand that gives a +2 to overcoming spell resistance at the same price as any other 2nd level wand. This way wizard school specialists would have wands that are good for their chosen school.
Since we are changing some of the rules for wands, why not do it for staves too? Staves have always been under used in my opinion while they are actually kind of a good idea. Anyone have any cool ideas what a stave could do in this world?
The spell componet puch idea is very cool, and it gives some flavor to what was really a superficial creation originally.
I'm really liking this idea of rituals, and would be really cool for wizards and sorcerers. The ideas that could come out could be variation of Mage's Private Sanctum possibly. So if one ritual allows you to easily use magic, wands allow you to bipass SR, what can other rituals do? I'm thinking of something along the ideas of a few almost permanent rituals, something a wizard would use in his private areas to strengthen defences or empower certain spells. Critiques?

[Xunthrae]

.
5. Regional training and the city of origin will play a large part in character traits and qualities. Races will have around 10 race points in genetic, physical traits, while things like weapon familiarity or defensive training bonuses will constitute another 5 "race" points and be dependent on the character's origin.
This is a thematic idea, as the different towns and locations are difficult to travel between, and each location would develop very differently. Within each town, race would not matter, as all are fighting equally for survival, though other towns would train their youth differently.


What kinda of traits would this entail or is there a list you have that just isn't posted here? Would it be like the pathfinder race creation system they added, or would it be "I am an elf" and then a subset of elven racial traits you can buy with your points? Would there a regional trait pool of points, or would it be under the umbrella of 10?

[gr8artist]

Regarding staves ~ you are right, in that they don't see enough play. I'd consider letting staves serve the same purpose as wands (increased CL under conditions) but also getting rod and traditional staff benefits. Just, an overall boost to the wizard and everything he does.
The specifics of staves can be put off to a later date, as it would be quite some time before they are ready. Likely, staves will include a wide variety of effects. Characters will likely not be able to make staves or rods, and will receive only those which they buy or find. This allows me to make more interesting items, without worrying about specific costs and effects, just relative power level.

5. What kinda of traits would this entail or is there a list you have that just isn't posted here? Would it be like the pathfinder race creation system they added, or would it be "I am an elf" and then a subset of elven racial traits you can buy with your points? Would there a regional trait pool of points, or would it be under the umbrella of 10?
I'll be using the race-builder points that Paizo so graciously released. Races will have about 10 points, divided solely into things that are genetically specific to that race (darkvision, size, ability modifiers, teeth), while towns will have about 5 more points, divided solely into things that a character learns or trains in (weapon familiarity, skill bonuses, etc.)
So, a Thorian Orc and a Azhurian Orc would be similar in many ways, but would have different skills and styles. (Thoros being the city of soldiers, and Azhuri the city of law)
Does that help clarify? I can try and get examples up in a couple days.

[Squirrel_Dude]

1. I've always felt that early levels were already a hard to survive setting. I don't think the rules need to be changed in such a way to accomplish this. Hell, for the first two a levels a wizard's health is going to be about the average damage of getting hit by a greatsword one time.

Not to say that I haven't seen this done before (Start with X levels of NPC until X level of character). It honestly feels more like you're not letting me get the cool powers I actually want to play with than a survival setting. All in the execution, perhaps.

2. This idea comes from a good place, but doesn't really work that well because multiclassing is a thing. I would also agree that the point-buy is a tad low.

3. What about spells that naturally bypass SR? How would you calculate SR for the player characters? Would PCs have to take the standard action to lower their SR for the cleric to heal them, wizard buff them, etc.?

4. I don't like fumbles, but if your group does I won't argue.

5. I do not recommend the race builder for much of anything.

6. Almost everyone will be picking the option to speak it, unless they're a wizard or someone who will need to read it.

7. This will somewhat help mundanes, simply make sure that they won't be getting the improved version of the feat later than they normally could.

8. Don't. Don't do it. I've tried messing with the spell component pouch. You'll quit caring about the damn thing 6 sessions in because you'll have more important things to worry about. It's just tedium, and a minor gold cost on the part of the wizard, and only the wizard.

[gr8artist]

1. I've always felt that early levels were already a hard to survive setting. I don't think the rules need to be changed in such a way to accomplish this. Hell, for the first two a levels a wizard's health is going to be about the average damage of getting hit by a greatsword one time.
Not to say that I haven't seen this done before (Start with X levels of NPC until X level of character). It honestly feels more like you're not letting me get the cool powers I actually want to play with than a survival setting. All in the execution, perhaps.
Eh, the early level spells that conjure food and water, the ranger's survival bonuses, and several other features make a challenging environment... not challenging. Toxins, curses, and lots of environmental hazards will be prevalent, and they will have mostly only the heal skill to fix it.
Perhaps you're right, that the difficulty can be presented in another way. I will query the group, and see what their opinions on the NPC>PC mechanic are.

2. This idea comes from a good place, but doesn't really work that well because multiclassing is a thing. I would also agree that the point-buy is a tad low.
Keep in mind that they'll also have twice as many ability score increases as a regular character (1 every even level). They'll start off weak, but should end up with a solid array.
Also, why wouldn't it work for multiclassing? My current PB values by NPC class level are as follows:
Base 9 points.
Commoner: +1, +2, +2, +2
Expert: +0, +2, +2, +2
Warrior: +0, +2, +2, +2
Adept (arcane): +0, +1, +0, +1
Adept (divine): +0, +1, +0, +1
Adept (natural): +0, +1, +0, +1
So a Warrior 2, Adept (divine) 2 would have 12 points. An Expert 3, Adept (arcane) 1 would have 13 points.

3. What about spells that naturally bypass SR? How would you calculate SR for the player characters? Would PCs have to take the standard action to lower their SR for the cleric to heal them, wizard buff them, etc.?
The PC's and creatures wouldn't get SR. Think of it instead of a CL check to perform the spell, that benefits from feats that make penetrating Spell Resistance easier.

4. I don't like fumbles, but if your group does I won't argue.
Fair enough.

5. I do not recommend the race builder for much of anything.
Why not?

6. Almost everyone will be picking the option to speak it, unless they're a wizard or someone who will need to read it.
Of course. That lets me have some fun with legal documents and such.

7. This will somewhat help mundanes, simply make sure that they won't be getting the improved version of the feat later than they normally could.
So, you think the feats should upgrade at the level that the improved feats are first available? So, if you have Improved Trip, you would get Greater Trip as soon as you met its prerequisites?

8. Don't. Don't do it. I've tried messing with the spell component pouch. You'll quit caring about the damn thing 6 sessions in because you'll have more important things to worry about. It's just tedium, and a minor gold cost on the part of the wizard, and only the wizard.
That is a fair warning. Perhaps I'll simplify it, making a single pouch with limited uses.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Keep in mind that they'll also have twice as many ability score increases as a regular character (1 every even level). They'll start off weak, but should end up with a solid array.
Also, why wouldn't it work for multiclassing? My current PB values by NPC class level are as follows:
Base 9 points.
Commoner: +1, +2, +2, +2
Expert: +0, +2, +2, +2
Warrior: +0, +2, +2, +2
Adept (arcane): +0, +1, +0, +1
Adept (divine): +0, +1, +0, +1
Adept (natural): +0, +1, +0, +1
So a Warrior 2, Adept (divine) 2 would have 12 points. An Expert 3, Adept (arcane) 1 would have 13 points.The issue isn't multiclassing within the first 4 levels (because they'll be retrained, anyway), it's after the first 4 levels. E.G. I take 4 levels of warrior (turn into a Paladin), and then take 16 levels of oracle.


The PC's and creatures wouldn't get SR. Think of it instead of a CL check to perform the spell, that benefits from feats that make penetrating Spell Resistance easier.So, are they never going to face enemy casters, or are those enemy casters just able to completely ignore the rules of the world and cast without having to make CL checks when they cast at the party (but not when they're buffing themselves)?


Why not?I just don't think that it's a very good system. It's very easy to minmax and mess with.


Of course. That lets me have some fun with legal documents and such. Murderhobos care about legal documents? :smalltongue:


So, you think the feats should upgrade at the level that the improved feats are first available? So, if you have Improved Trip, you would get Greater Trip as soon as you met its prerequisites? If I understood you correctly, I assumed you were going to be doing something to this effect.

E.G. I take improved trip, and after a few levels it would become greater trip.

I was just advising to make sure that players get greater trip as soon as they would normally be able to. Otherwise it's something of a nerf The feat already comes pretty late (level 7).


That is a fair warning. Perhaps I'll simplify it, making a single pouch with limited uses.That's actually what I did :smalltongue: I just stopped cause it doesn't matter as soon as someone takes eschew materials, and it doesn't accomplish anything until then.

It just turns the wizard into a kid who walks up to you every few hours to refil his cup of juice.

[Fosco the Swift]

Well if the puch idea becomes obsolete or annoying way too fast, you could always change its use for someting else. Keep spells as they are normally used componet wise but try changing this limited componet idea for the rituals we're coming up with. That way they could be powerful, but wouldn't overpower wizrds or sorcerers, similar to [I]Stone Skin[I]. For example, you could make the reweaving ritual free since its use is fairly basic, but rituals that boost spells or defences would use materials from the componet pouch. Maybe to add some flavor you could change components from being bought, preventing it from being a constant cost of being a wizard, and instead have them be things that wizards/ socerers find or build from VERY specific and unique materials using Craft: Alchemy. So somewhat similar to some low powered magic items, the materials could be found throughout dungeons. And it gives some use to the Craft: Alchemy too.

[gr8artist]

The issue isn't multiclassing within the first 4 levels (because they'll be retrained, anyway), it's after the first 4 levels. E.G. I take 4 levels of warrior (turn into a Paladin), and then take 16 levels of oracle.
Well, it's not a great fix, I'll admit. But if your concern is a 16th level tier 1 class getting the point buy of a tier 4 class, I'd point out that the 4 levels they lost more than likely make up for it.
I think the underlying idea remains solid; MAD classes get a higher point buy. The only exception is the Druid, which is a high tier/low PB class with a somewhat MAD arrangement of skills. But, they're also one of the strongest classes, so I'm not concerned about any nerfs to their build.

So, are they never going to face enemy casters, or are those enemy casters just able to completely ignore the rules of the world and cast without having to make CL checks when they cast at the party (but not when they're buffing themselves)?
Enemy casters will have the same problems as the PC's. I simply meant that the environmental SR isn't a quality added to the target of the spell, it's more a flat DC to successfully cast spells.
This also means that enemy casters can fumble and crit, as well.

I just don't think that it's a very good system. It's very easy to minmax and mess with.
The players will not be building their own races and backgrounds. I will be assembling a list of options; they will choose from the listed races and backgrounds.

Murderhobos care about legal documents? :smalltongue:
Whether they want to care or not is irrelevant. Their ignorance of rules and laws will come back to bite them, I'll make sure of it.
I won't be going easy on them, or allowing them to do whatever they want willy-nilly. It will be a harsh, practical world, and they will be penalized for min/maxing by their own inability to perform generic tasks.

If I understood you correctly, I assumed you were going to be doing something to this effect.
E.G. I take improved trip, and after a few levels it would become greater trip.
I was just advising to make sure that players get greater trip as soon as they would normally be able to. Otherwise it's something of a nerf. The feat already comes pretty late (level 7).
Yes, that's the plan. The question is at what level the feats should upgrade. As soon as the prereq's are met? One level later? At every 5th level, by default? I think having them upgrade as soon as the prereq's are met is the best course of action, though this will need some hands-on tweaking with feats like the +2 save/1-per-day reroll chains.

That's actually what I did :smalltongue: I just stopped cause it doesn't matter as soon as someone takes eschew materials, and it doesn't accomplish anything until then.
It just turns the wizard into a kid who walks up to you every few hours to refill his cup of juice.
So, like Fosco suggested, the best way to implement this is to make the limited ingredients more interesting. Perhaps the SCP's can be used for any spell school, and consume a number of uses equal to the spell's level. Players would be able to convert (through craft or survival checks) uncommon raw materials into additional charges. I think my players would like a mechanic like this; they usually enjoy gathering flavorful things, and often ask me what they can make something into.
And yeah, Eschew materials gets rid of the minor annoyance, but is it really worth a feat slot?
Wands will likely allow you to bypass the SCP materials for spells of their school, alleviating some of the trouble. This basically makes the M component an F, but that's fine with me. Better wands will increase your CL with their associate schools, and the best will give additional benefits.

Speaking of which, does anybody have a good example for the Gold Piece value of a feat? The gloves of arrow snaring are a good example, a magical item that grants the benefits of a single feat. What others are there? (other than MM rods, of course).

Also, what would you think of allowing mundane characters (as well as casters) to perform ritual magic via spellcraft checks and laborious study? The diminished quantity of magical items would imply that the mundanes need another way of keeping up. Such ritual magic would take minutes to perform, and would require costly ingredients, but would allow players of any class to perform some of the most plot-impacting spells. Ritual magic effects would be increased to minutes instead of rounds, allowing characters to spend a few minutes preparing an incantation outside the boss' chamber, and gain the benefits inside.
This would probably be handled with a feat. After taking the feat, a character can keep a spellbook (identical to a wizard's) but he may only keep ritual spells inside it. Ritual spells can rarely be copied by a wizard or other caster into non-ritual format, though the inverse is comparatively simple; a mundane adventurer with enough ranks in spellcraft could develop ritual versions of others' spells.

[Fosco the Swift]

Actually Unearthed Arcana for 3.5 has a sections on things called Incantations, which are specifically made for non-spellcasters. As the book puts it, Incantations are non assured powerful magical affects that any character can use, but have powerful drawbacks if used incorrectlly. is this anything good or do you want a completely new system?

[gr8artist]

Fosco, I love you. Have my little stick figure babies. :smallbiggrin:
That is EXACTLY what I was looking for.

[Fosco the Swift]

Do you have the book or should I start posting some of the rules and effects?

[gr8artist]

I've got it, thanks.

[Fosco the Swift]

Alright, so far...
-Wands boost your CL for defeating SR
-Incantations are going to be used
-The world is corrupted and forces a SR check for every spell
-Rituals can be performed to bypass the World SR check
-Feats will be automatically improved when presiquites are met
-Staves are going to be adjusted
-SCP's will be used to cast spells and use charges equal to spell level
Did I miss anything?

[gr8artist]

I think that just about covers everything not listed in the original post.
Speaking of which, I talked some of my plans over with the group, and after taking their considerations to heart, I'm updating my plans.
I will update the original post to reflect this.

[genesaika]

I haven't read the updated post yet, but I enjoyed the ideas and what's been suggested.

For staves make them weapons. Adding +s would increase the ease of getting past the environment SR and you could pay to have them enhance your casting like adding magic effects; DCs, damage, etc.

[Fosco the Swift]

I like genesaika's idea about having the staves add magical effects. There is a lot of room to work with there and a lot of fun. Staves would run on charges as usual, except that the charges are used for different things besides spells and the recharge method should be changed, possibly something involving the rituals that have been brought up in this thread.
Low level staves could do simple but possibly useful things to spells. The staves would be ranked by the Spell Level catagory as appropriate for the effect they have. For example, a 0 level staff could use a charge to cause any spell with the fire subschool to have an additional effect of light as the spell. Critiques?

[gr8artist]

That... is a really fun idea. Pricing and design would get really hairy if we used the traditional staff design.
Lets say that staff spellbuffs function like wondrous item effects. In your example, it produces a "light" effect. Custom item rules will give us a rough idea of the cost of this effect for X uses per day... specifically (SL)x(CL)x(2000)x(X)/5, if memory serves. I'm going to say that "applying to spells from only a specific category" knocks about 20% off the cost.
So, for the example of 5 charges of "light" each day applied for free to the subjects of a spell with the "Fire" descriptor, we get this formula: .8(.5)(1)(2000)(5)/5 or 4000/5... 800 gold. That's actually not very expensive.
Another example: Applying "Grease" to up to 3 acid spells each day.
.8(1)(1)(2000)(3)/5 = 4800/5 or 960 gold.
Now, applying duration and area spells to targeted spells gets a little weird. "Flare" may have been a better example than "Light". Oh well.
Obviously, we'll have to keep in mind the normal effects and number of targets. For example, applying "shield" to every abjuration spell would be bad, because shield is supposed to be caster only.
Now we just need an idea of the gold-piece value of a feat effect or class feature. It irritates me that there are no clearly defined rules for determining how costly an item that grants X feat should be.
I would love to make a Staff of the Orc Shaman that applies the benefits of the orc bloodline arcana to certain spells. But how much would that be? Who knows?

[Fosco the Swift]

I tested out a formula for your feat troubles, I'm not sure if its any good because the prices might be a bit low. Basically...

(2(# of presiquites)# of times per day/3)(1000)

So the feat Great Cleave would cost 5333 gp to use 2/day.
(2(4)2/3)(1000)=5333gp

I do have one question for this example because Power Attack requires a BAB of +1 and Great Cleave requires a BAB of +4. Should both count as a presiquite? I only counted the BAB for Great Cleave giving me 4 presiquites but if you include the Power Attack BAB you have 5 presiquites and the magic item costs 6,666gp. Is this too confusing?

[gr8artist]

I would say no, lesser pre-req's shouldn't be counted again. Count only the highest pre-requisite of each type. (BAB, Strength score, etc.)
Did you just randomly pull the values out of a hat when making your formula, or did you base it on something.
I would like a formula that used existing wondrous items as a reference. (Gloves of Arrow Snaring are the only ones I know of.)

[Fosco the Swift]

I effectively pulled it out of a hat, but I made sure that it worked for Gloves of Arrow Snatching to check if it was any good. Sadly the Gloves are really the only reference I can use that I could find. there might easily be a better equation out there but this one should do for now.