Has Miron Forgotten the Fundamentals of D&D Economics?

[BenjCano]

In #921 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html), Miron declines to attack the Order because he doesn't see profit in it for him. Tarquin refers to Miron's willingness to go along with his "story nonsense" so long as it puts coins in Miron's pocket. I infer from those remarks that Miron is primarily interested in acquiring wealth. I'm spelling that out because I don't think Miron meant that killing the Order wouldn't further his goals and agendas in the sense of the word "profit." No, it seems that he strictly meant profit as in monetary gain.

Which makes his unwillingness to assist in killing Roy, V, Durkon, and Belkar all the more headscratchingly odd. Let us not forget the fundamentals of the D&D economic system: kill things and take their stuff. In what way would the gear of four 15th level characters, which would have a value of 800,000 going by the wealth-by-level (http://www.dndarchive.com/forums/depth-roleplay-qa/character-wealth-level) guidelines, not help line his pockets and net him a profit?

[mhsmith]

He's already got a crap-ton of stuff. And since the "goal" isn't a TPK, he'd essentially get some amount of stuff in exchange for some very pissed off future adventurers who may some day be higher level than him. That seems like a poor trade-off.

[Tvtyrant]

800,000 is likely peanuts to the owners of major empires, especially oppressive high tax empires like theirs. Assuming a population of 60,000,000 over all three (not that large) and everyone is level 1 commoners (they are not) then the 10th would amount to 219,000,000 GP a year. It should be easy to double or even triple that (higher level characters, etc.)

[Amphiox]

Killing things and looting the corpses is only the fundamental of economics for D&D campaigns, not the entirety of D&D. Particularly if it includes the risk of being killed and having your stuff taken from you. Miron is not an adventurer anymore and no longer campaigning, so those rules no longer apply to his situation.

[Xelbiuj]

Tvtyrant, those numbers are pretty freaking optimistic.


Anyways tc, risk versus reward. As been stated in every* other topic about this, Malack died, can they really be sure that they're safe? A wizard not previously seen by the 2 popped in a few minutes ago and begun wasting fools, what other wildcards does this "Order" have to play?

Need I remind you of this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html)
Same principle. If Miron was willing to engage in combat versus adventurers just to take their stuff, he probably would have never settled into the "thing they do".

[Dark Matter]

The gold wouldn't be enough to move the needle and their magic gear will be 15th level, meaning sub-standard for someone in Miron's position.

[Tvtyrant]

Tvtyrant, those numbers are pretty freaking optimistic.


Anyways tc, risk versus reward. As been stated in every* other topic about this, Malack died, can they really be sure that they're safe? A wizard not previously seen by the 2 popped in a few minutes ago and begun wasting fools, what other wildcards does this "Order" have to play?

Need I remind you of this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0158.html)
Same principle. If Miron was willing to engage in combat versus adventurers just to take their stuff, he probably would have never settled into the "thing they do".

Actually they are profoundly pessimistic, as they expect every human being to make exactly 1 silver a day and each individual to only pay a 10th of their income, which is far less than modern taxes or even medieval tax levels.

Now the population numbers might be a little higher than the actual ones, but even those are hardly excessive for empires at any time period. It assumes 60 million overall, which is a large but not overwhelming ancient empire.

A really optimistic tax income would be using 1 gold a day per person (mid level experts) and would have over 2 billion GP a year as a tax income (still at 1/10.) High taxes could bring this level of income even with lower income levels.

[Gift Jeraff]

The OOTS are a ragtag band, so they are below their WBL.

:vaarsuvius: Pay's bad.

[MReav]

Tarkin convinced his allies to join in his scheme specifically so they could avoid mucking about in dungeons. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) Presumably, this extends to the whole adventuring lifestyle. Fighting with a random team of Semi-Level-Appropriate seemed like the kind of thing they got into politics to avoid.

Alternatively, this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0721.html) flow chart.

[HZ514]

Where do people keep getting "Tarkin" from? Misspelling words or names of people whose names you hear is fine, especially fantastical / uncommon names. But the only way to learn Tarquin's name is to read it. Having it literally spelled out for you and then butchering it...How does that even happen?!

[ti'esar]

Where do people keep getting "Tarkin" from? Misspelling words or names of people whose names you hear is fine, especially fantastical / uncommon names. But the only way to learn Tarquin's name is to read it. Having it literally spelled out for you and then butchering it...How does that even happen?!

It's probably because his introduction had a series of Star Wars jokes.

[sengmeng]

It's probably because his introduction had a series of Star Wars jokes.

He has gray hair and wears a military uniform... is he supposed to look like Peter Cushing?

[Sloanzilla]

Speaking of Star Wars- bandana dude reminds me a bit of Boba Fett - "he's no good to me dead"

[Copperdragon]

The numbers are very optimistic. I doubt every commoner can pay 1/10th of his silver, as 1 silver is what a normal commoner makes - and what it also costs to keep him and a core-family barely (!) alive.

I am also not sure if 60.000.000 is a realistic estimate (Tarquins share consists of a lot of desert and in a desert you do not have a lot of cities and we also know that the "good" parts of the continent belongs to the elves; it might be that all three empires have like 60 million), but let's not argue that, just note that "population" does not mean "taxpayer". It includes the "too poor to pay significant tax", wifes (or husbands) without actual work, the elderly, children, whatnot. In D&D you also have a very large number (more than any actual world) of brigands, black mages or others who do not pay taxes.
We then have the massive cost to run the entire thing. There is a large income but the armies need to get paid and fed, they have an exquisite lifestyle (that is what it is about, in the end), they have quite some administration, etc.

If you calculate with an income around 5 copper on average per person living there you are ending at like a million GP. This range is much more beliveable. Maybe it's one, maybe less, maybe 5 million... I doubt we are talking about more. 800000 WBL would be quite something.

[factotum]

But the only way to learn Tarquin's name is to read it. Having it literally spelled out for you and then butchering it...How does that even happen?!

You've not noticed how many people spell Xykon's name as Zykon, then?

[Fish]

All this back-of-the-envelope math assumes that the wealth of the nation is the whole and the entirety of their wealth. Why would you not assume they had wealth of their own?

[Emanick]

I'm going to ignore this whole discussion and say that yeah, the OP is right, this is odd.

Of course it makes perfect sense for Miron not to want to attack the Order. It's a dangerous job that he seems to have no personal interest in doing, and he's probably already quite frustrated with Tarquin, so he might be even less inclined to go along with one of his old friend's "harebrained schemes" then usual. Why would he want to?

Well, because money. Forget WBL and pretend that it's not an inherent feature of the OOTSverse. It's STILL not very plausible, given everything we've seen about this world, that an adventuring party could become as powerful as the Order clearly is without acquiring lots of valuable magic items (and probably a lot of more liquid wealth, too). It would be irrational for Miron NOT to assume that the Order has stuff worth taking, stuff worth tens and almost certainly hundreds of thousands of gold pieces combined. Given that he rules an empire, he could arguably be insanely wealthy and have no use for any of the Order's possessions, but in that case, there's probably not much of anything he can do to increase his wealth, besides finding ways to increase tax receipts, perhaps. And Miron "I'm not seeing the profit for us" Shrewdanker seems to be motivated fairly strongly by money and accustomed to weighing circumstances on the basis of what will be most profitable. This is hard to understand if he rarely enters situations that could make a meaningful difference in his level of prosperity.

Yes, it's obvious why he wouldn't want to attack the Order. But of all the reasons he could have cited, he chooses the one that, to me, makes the least sense. Fighting the Order, however risky, SHOULD be very profitable if the battle is won. If you want to make a quick buck, killing a group of high-level adventurers who are capable of slaughtering hundreds of soldiers with relative ease and potentially outmatching your entire army, combined? Risky, but the profits are going to be spectacular if and when victory is achieved.

I'm not arguing that this is a plot hole, of course. "Miron didn't make an entirely rational decision" does absolutely nothing to strain my suspension of disbelief. I am interested, however, if there's anything beyond that going on here.

[Morph Bark]

800,000 is likely peanuts to the owners of major empires, especially oppressive high tax empires like theirs. Assuming a population of 60,000,000 over all three (not that large) and everyone is level 1 commoners (they are not) then the 10th would amount to 219,000,000 GP a year. It should be easy to double or even triple that (higher level characters, etc.)

60 million may not be large in today's terms, but remember that the Empire of Germany, as well as France and Great Britain, had less than a population of 80 million prior to WWI (and even less after that). Not counting their colonies, of course, as those couldn't ever all fit into one continent*.

*assuming continent sizes during the lifetime of the human race.

[_Jarlaxle_]

Assuming a population of 60,000,000 over all three (not that large)
Thats far more then optimistic. You can't compare them to modern countries in the real world.

Medival societies don't have that much population especially those in deserts.
If you take a look at the Forgotten Realms Cormyr has a population of around 1,500,000 and Sembia around 2,500,000, both are major countries.

So if those three desert countries have a large population they may have 3 million people living in them combined, but probably much less.

[Tass]

That much of the empire is dry (not truly dessert, the dessert is not part of the empires and countries) does not have to mean so much. Remember that Egypt was the bread basket of the roman empire.

Now a days with artificial fertilizer what we need is large areas that have water, in order to grow food for hundreds of millions or billions. Back then fertile soil was what was important, in order to feed the tens of millions. The Nile Valley had that, while northern Europe was wet, but nutrient poor, forest. Those rivers that flows from the mountains could potentially feed many millions.

I'll still say that 60 million sound like too much. That is about what the roman empire had, and these looks somewhat smaller. I'll accept 20 million for the three empires, and 60-100 for the whole continent.

[Dark Matter]

Miron may be using the word "profit" to mean something other than "money".

Does he *know* what the gates are? That Xykon (or someone like him) is around hunting them?

In that case, yeah, it's hard to see how killing the OOTS is profitable.

[Math_Mage]

So Miron is more cautious and less opportunistic than Tarquin. He prefers to stick to the safe plan and avoid engaging wild cards like the Order. That's not a character flaw, it's a character trait.

[littlebum2002]

The numbers are very optimistic. I doubt every commoner can pay 1/10th of his silver, as 1 silver is what a normal commoner makes - and what it also costs to keep him and a core-family barely (!) alive.

I'm sorry, I just had to butt in here. I think it's funny that you actually believe the Empire of Blood would actually care whether or not their tax rate left families with enough money to survive. This is the same empire that sentenced someone to death for public urination, remember?

[F.Harr]

In #921 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html), Miron declines to attack the Order because he doesn't see profit in it for him. Tarquin refers to Miron's willingness to go along with his "story nonsense" so long as it puts coins in Miron's pocket. I infer from those remarks that Miron is primarily interested in acquiring wealth. I'm spelling that out because I don't think Miron meant that killing the Order wouldn't further his goals and agendas in the sense of the word "profit." No, it seems that he strictly meant profit as in monetary gain.

Which makes his unwillingness to assist in killing Roy, V, Durkon, and Belkar all the more headscratchingly odd. Let us not forget the fundamentals of the D&D economic system: kill things and take their stuff. In what way would the gear of four 15th level characters, which would have a value of 800,000 going by the wealth-by-level (http://www.dndarchive.com/forums/depth-roleplay-qa/character-wealth-level) guidelines, not help line his pockets and net him a profit?

Probably 'cause he's got a LOT more at home.

[factotum]

This is the same empire that sentenced someone to
death for public urination, remember?

Tarquin isn't an idiot--I'm sure he knows that taxing the commoners to the point they couldn't actually survive would be a terrible idea, since it just engenders crime and resentment against authority. His little plan relies on keeping the people distracted with the constant wars while he creams off what he can, not taxing them into oblivion and potentially making them rebel against him.

[The Fury]

You've not noticed how many people spell Xykon's name as Zykon, then?

Whoawhoawhoa! Never spell Xykon's name with a "Z," he hates that.