We need better names than "Durkula" and "TT"

[Gift Jeraff]

How about:
-Vampire Durkon
-Tarquin's party

[Secris]

Why? Team Taquin and Durkula are shorter and straight to the point.

[SavageWombat]

No, we don't.

Durkula is evocative and beloved by (most of) the forum.

TT will do because they won't be relevant for much longer. And it's shorter than "Tarquin and his Amazing Friends".

[Muenster Man]

I rather liked "The Count (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296878)" for Durkon

As for TT, I usually call them Tarquin & co. since they're effectively in business together.

[Bird]

How ironic are you being on a scale of One to Gift Jeraff?

[The Kind Knido]

How about "The Bearded Gothic" and "Tarquin and the Tarquettes?"

[Gift Jeraff]

TT makes me think of "titty" or what some Spanish-speaking children call their aunts.

[Peelee]

How ironic are you being on a scale of One to Gift Jeraff?

I think that is the most accurate scale I have ever seen on this forum.

[Xelbiuj]

Can't wait until it comes out that their official name was Shoulderpad Guy's Crew and that Tarquin thinking/wanting Elan to be the leader of the OOTS was just pathetic projecting.

[The Oni]

Durkula should stay. It works better than Vampire Durkon because Durkula is (as far as we can tell) a different character from Durkon.

As for Team Tarquin, I like Tarquin & co./Tarquin, Inc.

[Nordom]

TT should have a name that's on line with previous similar adventuring group names featuring members of Tarquin's family. So maybe the Vector Cabal.

[Spoomeister]

Given 921, perhaps TT should be called Tarkie's World.

La-la, la-LA
La-la, la-LA
TAAARKIE'S WOOOORLD

[RadagastTheBrow]

As for Team Tarquin, I like Tarquin & co./Tarquin, Inc.

TarCo. Providing all your tyrannical needs since Indeterminate Backstory Time. Remember, love is hate, war is peace, and spending is savings!!!

Actually, TyranniCo sounds pretty good, too.

[multilis]

TT rename to The A-Team.

Durkula rename to Dwilight, as he is a sparkly vampire that is not hurt by sunlight.

[Blisstake]

Why not just call him Durkon?

[Vinsfeld]

How about "The Bearded Gothic" and "Tarquin and the Tarquettes?"

I vote for this one.




What do you mean by "this is not up for vote"?

[Gift Jeraff]

"Tarquin and the Tarquettes?"

This is now canon.

[The Oni]

The Vector Cabal sounds pretty badass, actually.

[Mike Havran]

Durkula is okay. Durkon is dead and I don't think it's accurate to call that bloodsucking monster animated by unholy magic his name just because it shares Durkon's accent.

I like "Tarkies" for the TT.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm assuming this is irony, but regardless of my personal opinion, I think that "Durkula" and "TT" are as unchangeable as any other popular slang. You might as well ask people to stop calling vegetables "veggies." :smallamused:

[Emanick]

Why not just call him Durkon?

I see no problem with this. "Durkula" is nauseating. My soul shrivels up inside me whenever I see somebody calling Durkon by that name. (Overstatement, but still.)

It's not as if it's somehow confusing or disrespectful to Durkon's memory or whatever to continue calling him by his name. He's changed, that much is clear. This doesn't mean he needs a name change, unless The Giant decides to give him one in-comic. If "Durkon" is good enough for Roy, it's good enough for me.

[Onyavar]

TarCo. Providing all your tyrannical needs since Indeterminate Backstory Time. Remember, love is hate, war is peace, and spending is savings!!!
Voting for TarCo or TarComp.


"Durkula" is nauseating. My soul shrivels up inside me whenever I see somebody calling Durkon by that name. (Overstatement, but still.)

It's not as if it's somehow confusing or disrespectful to Durkon's memory or whatever to continue calling him by his name. He's changed, that much is clear. This doesn't mean he needs a name change, unless The Giant decides to give him one in-comic. If "Durkon" is good enough for Roy, it's good enough for me.

Full ack. Durkon is still Durkon, not a completele different personality. Yes, he admits he may have changed - but Roy has changed, too. So did Haley, and Elan, and V and even Belkar although the Belkster doesn't admit it. Do we still call them Elan, Haley, Roy, Belkar, V? It seems we do.

Durkula seems to me like an insulting oneshot-nickname Belkar would invent. Like McBeardy and whatnot - anyone ever collected a complete list of Belkars slurs?

[The Oni]

By the same token, Dracula is not an insulting comparison. While he's had the living daylights parodied out of him so that he gets the same treatment as the Frankenstein monster nowadays, he is a complex and surprisingly human character in the original stories.

[Ramien]

Full ack. Durkon is still Durkon, not a completele different personality. Yes, he admits he may have changed - but Roy has changed, too. So did Haley, and Elan, and V and even Belkar although the Belkster doesn't admit it. Do we still call them Elan, Haley, Roy, Belkar, V? It seems we do.

Durkula seems to me like an insulting oneshot-nickname Belkar would invent. Like McBeardy and whatnot - anyone ever collected a complete list of Belkars slurs?

I can understand the desire to treat Durkon as a different character now that he's been vamped.After all, Malack certainly felt as though he was a different person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) after his transformation. Durkon might feel the same way once he's had time to think it over.

[Emanick]

By the same token, Dracula is not an insulting comparison. While he's had the living daylights parodied out of him so that he gets the same treatment as the Frankenstein monster nowadays, he is a complex and surprisingly human character in the original stories.

That's true, at least in principle (I've read the original Dracula and don't find him to be particularly complex; are you referring to something besides Bram Stoker?). Still, what jumps to most people's mind when they hear the name "Dracula" is not some iconic, classic figure like Hamlet or whatever, but the several metric tons of tired vampire parodies and Dracula knock-offs that flit around in our culture like packs of roving jackals, devouring the last remnants of the dignity of the old vampire legends. I don't want to be reminded of cheap D-movie plots whenever I see Durkon talked about for, like, the next 200 strips, or however long it takes for Rich to restore Master Thundershield to his previous state, assuming that ever happens.

I understand the desire to create new catchphrases and nicknames, but ugh. Not here, not now. I might boycott my English major in protest (which I guess I'm already doing, since I'm supposed to be working on an overdue English paper right now :P).

[Ramien]

Just remember, 'Durkula' is exactly one letter away from 'Duckula,' so we shouldn't be surprised if the vampire manages to become a vegetarian...

It's also why I still call him Durkon.

[Lino]

Durkula is a perfectly fine name reffering a perfectly fine vampire novel. Come on, would you prefer Durkward Cullen?

[Heksefatter]

There was a fictional band, The Archies, from Archie Comics, which even sent out LPs with bubblegum pop. A band named for one of its members is just as egotistical as Tarquin, so why not call his team The Tarqies?

Durkola is fine, though.

[Orm-Embar]

By the same token, Dracula is not an insulting comparison. While he's had the living daylights parodied out of him so that he gets the same treatment as the Frankenstein monster nowadays, he is a complex and surprisingly human character in the original stories.

This made me think of Fred Saberhagen's take on Dracula (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dracula-tape-fred-saberhagen/1101716431?ean=9780671578398) in which the man himself tells his side of the original story into a tape recorder. With the chance to throw in history and motivations, not to mention narrator's bias, he comes off a great deal more complex and sympathetic.


That's true, at least in principle (I've read the original Dracula and don't find him to be particularly complex; are you referring to something besides Bram Stoker?). Still, what jumps to most people's mind when they hear the name "Dracula" is not some iconic, classic figure like Hamlet or whatever, but the several metric tons of tired vampire parodies and Dracula knock-offs that flit around in our culture like packs of roving jackals, devouring the last remnants of the dignity of the old vampire legends. I don't want to be reminded of cheap D-movie plots whenever I see Durkon talked about for, like, the next 200 strips, or however long it takes for Rich to restore Master Thundershield to his previous state, assuming that ever happens.

Seconded.

Also in the context of the story; I would expect to see Roy calling Durkon by his name out of respect for his old friend and because that will keep reminding him of who he really is (or used to be) and maybe help him to keep him acting that way in spite of the big change.

[Kish]

Durkula is a perfectly fine name reffering a perfectly fine vampire novel. Come on, would you prefer Durkward Cullen?
Your bid for the example entry for False Dilemma Fallacy in next year's Webster's Dictionary is under consideration.

[Lino]

Your bid for the example entry for False Dilemma Fallacy in next year's Webster's Dictionary is under consideration.

It was a joke, I'm not seriously arguing over this.

[Roland Itiative]

We do need a better name than Team Tarquin. Team Tarkie it is.

[Copperdragon]

We do need a better name than Team Tarquin. Team Tarkie it is.

Which we shorten to TT. Awesome idea. :smallcool:

What's wrong with OotS, TE, TT, SG, ...? I do not see it...

[jidasfire]

Tarkie Tark and the Flunky Bunch?

::ducks::

[JustAnotherSoul]

Your bid for the example entry for False Dilemma Fallacy in next year's Webster's Dictionary is under consideration.

Also related you've been nominated chairperson of the Unnecessary Capitalizaton of Fallacies Committee. :smalltongue:

Why don't we refer to 'Team Tarquin' as 'TGFKTT' and 'Durkula' as 'TEFKD'?

[Kish]

'TEFKD'?
FKD could stand for Formerly Known as Durkon...

No clue for TE.

[hamishspence]

I was guessing "The Entity"

hence, in full, "the entity formerly known as Durkon".

[F.Harr]

TT makes me think of "titty" or what some Spanish-speaking children call their aunts.

Well, I don't like "Team X" anyway. It's always truck me as ungermanic. but that doesn't matter. it's here, it's staying, let's get used to it.

Besides, "Durkula" is cute.

"No clue for TE."

Redcloak and his Amazing Marionette?

[Emanick]

FKD could stand for Formerly Known as Durkon...

No clue for TE.

TEFKD = The Evil Forest-Killing Dwarf? I'm down.

[dps]

I can understand the desire to treat Durkon as a different character now that he's been vamped.After all, Malack certainly felt as though he was a different person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) after his transformation. Durkon might feel the same way once he's had time to think it over.

Malack thought that he was a different person after 200 years of experiences following his transformation. A bit of a different situation than the few hours that Durkon's been undead.

[Ermete]

'Duckula,'

.

Oh my gosh....what have you just brought back from the deep bottom of mind?...17 years at least since the last time I've heard of that cartoon... :smallsmile:

[martianmister]

We need better names than "Durkula" and "TT"

Agreed.

- Eduwarkon Culldenhield
- WCNLF (Western Continent National Liberation Front)

[hopeful1212]

Tarkie & Friends

[Emanick]

Whoever suggested "Tarquin and the Tarquettes," I vote for you as Supreme Linguistic Leader. Let's do that thing.

[ZLordZ]

How ironic are you being on a scale of One to Gift Jeraff?

I think that is the most accurate scale I have ever seen on this forum.

Indeed!



- WCNLF (Western Continent National Liberation Front)

Love it! They are also known as:
- Tarkie's Freedom Fighters!

[IW Judicator]

After discussing options with his Public Relations manager, Durkula shall henceforth be referred to as "The Vampire Formerly Known As Dwarf"

[rodneyAnonymous]

Another vote for "Durkon" and "Tarquin's party".

I kind of like "Count Thundershield" but that's pretty long.

[Rack]

Durkula and in particular Count Durkula drive me crazy. The etymology just makes zero sense. He's not Dracula, he's not a count, he's a vampire. Strictly speaking his name shouldn't change at all, but if it does it should represent the change in Durkon, not reference a character from another continuity.

Someone proposed Darkon once which I really hoped the community would embrace. Sadly not.

[Lino]

After discussing options with his Public Relations manager, Durkula shall henceforth be referred to as "The Vampire Formerly Known As Dwarf"

Oh yeah, "The Dward Formerly Know as Durkon", or http://www.lib.rpi.edu/images/movies/rock/tafkap.gif for the medias! Perhaps he could cast a Purple Rain spell?

Also: Tarquin and the Tarquettes is awesome.

[davidbofinger]

I like these names for Durkon, I think we're making real progress. But they could be improved by making them less pronounceable and adding more symbols that aren't letters in any terrestrial alphabet. They should also have approved wrong spellings (cf. "Zykon") for those posters who like to use such things, and animated smiley symbols that kill LCD pixels and induce homicidal rage in common pet species.

[Reddish Mage]

Durkula should stay. It works better than Vampire Durkon because Durkula is (as far as we can tell) a different character from Durkon.

As for Team Tarquin, I like Tarquin & co./Tarquin, Inc.

While I'm sure there's going to be something to the effect that Durkula is different in some way, "as far as we can tell?" So far he doesn't seem like a radically different person to me.

[Forikroder]

While I'm sure there's going to be something to the effect that Durkula is different in some way, "as far as we can tell?" So far he doesn't seem like a radically different person to me.

aside from snapping Zs kneck without a second thought?

[LuPuWei]

How about:
-Vampire Durkon
-Tarquin's party

If Durkula bites them they can become Tarquon's Vampire Party... :smalltongue:

[F.Harr]

I think it was said, but I'm saying it again, "Tarq co."

And what's wrong with Durkula? Who cares that "Dracula" was just a nickname Vlad the Impaler had?

[Reddish Mage]

aside from snapping Zs kneck without a second thought?

Like Durkon, but slightly more badass. When he starts doing things old Durkon would not only be more squeemish about but morally horrified, and does then without a hint of conflict or remorse, I'd say Durkula is starting to seem like a walking corpse with a different inhabitant. Until then Durkon is interchangeable w Durkula.

Also Team Tarquin is by far the most catchy. Also the most appropriate for an old adventuring team.

[AstralFire]

I like Team Tarquin.

Durkula always makes me think of Duckula, so I hate it because then I imagine Durkon with a beak.

Life is like a hurricane here in Stickworld
War crimes, liches, adventuring
Get the stick out
Might save the universe...
Might destroy all of Earth!

Team Roy! A-woo-ooh!
Fighting back against the lich, it's Team Roy! Woo-ooh!
Even when Roy is dead, full steam boys!

D-d-d-danger, watch behind you!
Your evil twin's about to stab you!
What to do, just sending for your priest now! Woo-ooh!

Every day they're out there beating bad guys! Woo-oo!
Fighting back against the lich, it's Team Roy! Woo-ooh!
Not Team Evil or Team Tarquin but Team Roy!

A-woo-ooh!

[Kish]

If Durkula bites them they can become Tarquon's Vampire Party... :smalltongue:
If Durkon turned everyone in Tarquin's group into vampires, they would be Durkon's vampire party.



And what's wrong with Durkula?
EVERYTHING.

[Ron Miel]

How about:
-Vampire Durkon

The Vampire Lesstall

[rodneyAnonymous]

Like Durkon, but slightly more badass. When he starts doing things old Durkon would not only be more squeemish about but morally horrified...

That is, like, exactly what that was. Lawful Good Durkon probably wouldn't kill a named NPC at all unless he had no other choice, and definitely not an unconscious one. Murdering Z was a matter of morality, not squeamishness.

That scene said "I am evil now", not "I am more badass now", to me.

[warrl]

That is, like, exactly what that was. Lawful Good Durkon probably wouldn't kill a named NPC at all unless he had no other choice, and definitely not an unconscious one. Murdering Z was a matter of morality, not squeamishness.

That scene said "I am evil now", not "I am more badass now", to me.

Coup-de-grace, during combat, on the most dangerous enemy, is not evil (unless the other side is attempting to surrender, or it was evil to engage in the combat in the first place, or some other special case applies).

[rodneyAnonymous]

That rebuts a different statement than the one I made. Regardless of alignment implications, LG Durkon wouldn't have done that.

[Zmeoaice]

That is, like, exactly what that was. Lawful Good Durkon probably wouldn't kill a named NPC at all unless he had no other choice, and definitely not an unconscious one. Murdering Z was a matter of morality, not squeamishness.


Durkon had no moral qualms with Belkar killing a dominated Yukyuk. I think it's safe to say he might have done the same thing if he didn't become Durkula.

[Gift Jeraff]

Durkon had no moral qualms with Belkar killing a dominated Yukyuk. I think it's safe to say he might have done the same thing if he didn't become Durkula.

Durkon lets his teammates do stuff he doesn't personally agree with all the time (like breaking out of jail) because he's extremely passive by nature. He wouldn't do the deed himself (unless commanded to do so by a superior), much less with a grin.

[Reddish Mage]

Durkon lets his teammates do stuff he doesn't personally agree with all the time (like breaking out of jail) because he's extremely passive by nature. He wouldn't do the deed himself (unless commanded to do so by a superior), much less with a grin.

Again, I find that a mild-to-moderate change in personality rather than a radical one. Durkon is fairly passive, but he would not allow, say, Malack to vamp Belkar. Durkon, himself, would not break necks, but he does not object to seeing Roy (also LG) lop heads off. Durkon is not Celia.

Post-vampirism Durkon seems to take real glee in attacking, draining, and killing Z (confirmably deserving of it) in front of Nale. That's new but that seems to be a change to an existing personality rather than a sign that there's a new personality there that only apes the old one.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I agree that he seems like Durkon-with-a-changed-personality and not like something-else-with-Durkon's-personality, but disagree that the change is mild or even moderate. Judging only by that one act, it seems extreme.

Durkon is now a gleeful murderer? You might call that "radically different".

[Gift Jeraff]

Way I see it, the blank template personality seen with Thrall!Durkon "merged" with the real Durkon after Malack died, creating a creature that is still Durkon when it comes to stuff like accents and Law vs Chaos, but the vampire personality kicks in when it comes to certain stuff like feeding, propagating, death, Good vs Evil, etc.

But that's speculation on my part.

[Forikroder]

Way I see it, the blank template personality seen with Thrall!Durkon "merged" with the real Durkon after Malack died, creating a creature that is still Durkon when it comes to stuff like accents and Law vs Chaos, but the vampire personality kicks in when it comes to certain stuff like feeding, propagating, death, Good vs Evil, etc.

But that's speculation on my part.

the magic would jsut loosen his morals on one of the axis so that doing evil no long seems like a bad idea to him that way hes still Durkon, hes still commited to doing his duty but he doesnt mind snapping a few necks on the way

[The Oni]

Killing an unconscious enemy would not necessarily disqualify him from being Good, but would probably preclude him being Lawful Good. Lawful Good tends to frown on The Ends Justifying The Means; Miko's fall sets precedent.

[Obscure Blade]

Dark Durkon the Dastardly Dwarven Draugr.

[Reddish Mage]

I agree that he seems like Durkon-with-a-changed-personality and not like something-else-with-Durkon's-personality, but disagree that the change is mild or even moderate. Judging only by that one act, it seems extreme.

Durkon is now a gleeful murderer? You might call that "radically different".

I take issue with the term murder (there was nothing unlawful or unethical about that particular act), which is probably why I also would avoid the term "radical." The smiley face Durkon made was a big change, I'll give you that, its only an emotional reaction though, not (necessarily) a changed (un)life outlook.

[Kish]

Killing an unconscious enemy would not necessarily disqualify him from being Good, but would probably preclude him being Lawful Good.
I don't think it would necessarily preclude him from being either (who is less likely to kill an unconscious enemy, Elan or Roy? Which of those has already done so?). The important thing, is that it precludes him from being the same as he used to be.

Now, it's possible he just got moved down a little on the alignment scale, so that he used to be "Overwhelmingly-Lawful Overwhelmingly-Good" and is now "Overwhelmingly-Lawful Good, maybe with some slight tendencies toward neutral on the good/evil scale." But that strikes me as unlikely...if only because of the yet-unfulfilled prophecy about him.

[Onyavar]

Regarding Durkon: I'm betting on "Evil (capital E) but didn't rationalize it yet".

He's still driven by his primary duties: help Roy and the order; save the world; be an ambassador to the human lands until he is called back.

We already know his new racial features, including the urge to feed - Durkon knows about these theoretical restrictions too.
We suspect he is now enjoying killing and dominating things - Durkon might not have noticed this already, in the heat of the fight.
We need to assume that he's capable of horrible acts, that will completely shock the order - Durkon had no time to think about his new goals, no time to think about possibilities and options that are now open to him.

People can be horribly evil, but not committing evil acts - maybe because they fear the consequences, or don't realize what they're capable of if they get the chance and power to do evil acts. For example: Xykon was inherently evil, even before he zombified his first creature. When getting older, he realized his potential, and acted accordingly. I expect Dukon to fulfill his duties to the order, but slowly expand on his evilness further down the road.

Belkars alignment trend it currently towards neutral, his most horrible deeds are behind him. My estimations project Durkons trend to go worse from now on, stabilizing several kilonazis above Belkar at his worst.

[F.Harr]

How about, "The Qabal". Because Tarquin has a "q" in his name.

[dps]

Again, I find that a mild-to-moderate change in personality rather than a radical one. Durkon is fairly passive, but he would not allow, say, Malack to vamp Belkar. Durkon, himself, would not break necks, but he does not object to seeing Roy (also LG) lop heads off. Durkon is not Celia.

Post-vampirism Durkon seems to take real glee in attacking, draining, and killing Z (confirmably deserving of it) in front of Nale. That's new but that seems to be a change to an existing personality rather than a sign that there's a new personality there that only apes the old one.

Durkon had the option of joining the Linear Guild instead of attacking them. If he'd taken up Nale on the offer, that would have been evidence of a radical personality change--attacking them isn't. (Technically, Nale gave him another option--to go off on his own and do whatever he wanted, but I wouldn't trust Nale to not attack me if I turned down his offer to join the Linear Guild, and I don't think Durkon is stupid enough to either--whether pre- or post-vamping.)

And he didn't drain Z at all--he just knocked him out with the staff, then snapped his neck.

[Sir_Leorik]

How about:
-Vampire Durkon


How about "Durkon Thundershield"?

[martianmister]

How about:
-Vampire Durkon
How about "Durkon Thundershield"?

How about "Count Durkula"?

[Sir_Leorik]

How about "Count Durkula"?

Maybe "Prince Vlad III Durkula"?

[Jay R]

The actual name of the vampire dwarf is "Durkon".

Roy calls him "Durkon".

Haley calls him "Durkon".

Elan calls him "Durkon".

It's Durkon enough for our purposes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html)

[Kish]

I look at it this way.

When Durkon gets hungry, he'll come through the OotS-verse's notoriously fragile fourth wall and dine on the people who have called him something goofy.

[Sir_Leorik]

I look at it this way.

When Durkon gets hungry, he'll come through the OotS-verse's notoriously fragile fourth wall and dine on the people who have called him something goofy.

Unless they have a memorial to the Durkon of old in their .sig. :smalltongue:

[Caesar]

I vote for Darth Vundershield.

And Tarquins merry little band should be called Big Daddy T and the T-birds.

[F.Harr]

How about "Count Durkula"?


I vote for Darth Vundershield.

And Tarquins merry little band should be called Big Daddy T and the T-birds.

I like it.

[IW Judicator]

Unless they have a memorial to the Durkon of old in their .sig. :smalltongue:

Unless they live in an area with a lot of trees. Then he has more important business to attend to. LONG LIVE THE GLORIOUS DWARF EMPIRE AND ITS CEASELESS STRUGGLE AGAINST THE ARBOREAL MENACE!

[Emanick]

I look at it this way.

When Durkon gets hungry, he'll come through the OotS-verse's notoriously fragile fourth wall and dine on the people who have called him something goofy.

I hope you don't mind that I just sigged this.

[Kish]

Not at all.

[LuPuWei]

I look at it this way.

When Durkon gets hungry, he'll come through the OotS-verse's notoriously fragile fourth wall and dine on the people who have called him something goofy.

That's it. From now on he's officially Something Goofy.

[Joe the Rat]

I was campaigning for Durkon von Thundershieldovich, because I love a good D&D allusion. But that is a bit unwieldy.

My other recommendation is Vampire Cleric D.

For Tarquin's crew, "Gang of Six Five" fits the mode, but not the mood. Hmmm... It's hard to beat the alliteration on Team Tarquin, and he's the one we key off of... Mmm.

[Ghost Nappa]

Full ack. Durkon is still Durkon, not a completele different personality. Yes, he admits he may have changed - but Roy has changed, too. So did Haley, and Elan, and V and even Belkar although the Belkster doesn't admit it. Do we still call them Elan, Haley, Roy, Belkar, V? It seems we do.

Durkula seems to me like an insulting oneshot-nickname Belkar would invent. Like McBeardy and whatnot - anyone ever collected a complete list of Belkars slurs?

Do we not tend to refer to Vaarsuvius during that ULTIMATE POWER(TM) trip as Darth V? I fail to see the difference in terms of why one is okay and the other isn't, especially when it's a fan-based name referring to a specific point in his life (read: the present) after a possibly traumatic life-changing event. I find it useful to refer to this stage of his life as both an individual and a character.

[Kish]

Do we not tend to refer to Vaarsuvius during that ULTIMATE POWER(TM) trip as Darth V? I fail to see the difference in terms of why one is okay and the other isn't, especially when it's a fan-based name referring to a specific point in his life (read: the present) after a possibly traumatic life-changing event. I find it useful to refer to this stage of his life as both an individual and a character.
If the fan-based name for Durkon was, say, "Count Thundershield," or otherwise something that didn't sound as ridiculous as "Durkula," I wouldn't have nearly the same level of recoil at reading it.

(Still wouldn't use it myself, but then, I never call either Vaarsuvius or Spliced-Vaarsuvius "Darth V" either.)

[hamishspence]

Do we not tend to refer to Vaarsuvius during that ULTIMATE POWER(TM) trip as Darth V? I fail to see the difference in terms of why one is okay and the other isn't, especially when it's a fan-based name referring to a specific point in his life (read: the present) after a possibly traumatic life-changing event.

"Darth Vaarsuvius" has the advantage of actually having been used in-strip by Haley:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html

[Onyavar]

Hey, I stumbled about an old song - wow, it totally fits:



In oots year of 1183 there was a military coup
Behind it was a gang called the T.O.U.
Who did not feel the need to be elected

They had themselves a party at the point of a gun
They were slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun
A vamp or two and very few objected

Yeah, just one platoon and governments fall like flies, kapow, die
They stumble and fall, bye bye
Backs to the wall, aim high
We're having a ball
The axe and whip rule as democracy dies

...

Now the man behind the Empress calling the shots
Involved so discreetly in a lot of her plots
Was General Tarquin, in fact dictator...


Also, Penelope got a state funeral and was widely griefed for (but that could have been staged, of course).
The matching theme is just coincidence, I know.

[F.Harr]

"Darth Vaarsuvius" has the advantage of actually having been used in-strip by Haley:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html

I hope homes for Durkula, Tarq co. and the Qabal.

[martianmister]

I look at it this way.

When Durkon gets hungry, he'll come through the OotS-verse's notoriously fragile fourth wall and dine on the people who have called him something goofy.

Eduwarkon Culldenhield
Durferakon
Durkith Shieldillith
Andurgonal
Sduriken

[F.Harr]

You know, he's going to need a castle for people to be warned away from.

[Ghost Nappa]

"Darth Vaarsuvius" has the advantage of actually having been used in-strip by Haley:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html

I would like direct you to the comic where Belkar calls Vampire!Durkon "Darth Durkula" but sadly my keyboard does not have the necessary martian letters required to add the hyperlink. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChewbaccaDefense) Instead here is a picture of a duck. (http://www.stanford.edu/dept/CTL/cgi-bin/academicskillscoaching/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/baby-duck.jpg)

[LuPuWei]

How about Durkon Malackson... goes with the whole Nordic theme.

[Lino]

Hey, I stumbled about an old song - wow, it totally fits:



...and then my Mom got scared and said "You're moving with Roy Greenhilt and Durkon in Bel-Air!"

[Bulldog Psion]

How about Durkon Malackson... goes with the whole Nordic theme.

I think a little shortening is in order (pun intended).

How about "Durk Malackson?" It has a certain ring to it with "Durk" instead of "Durkon." Briefer, tenser, more savage. :smallbiggrin:

[ZLordZ]

How about "Durk Malackson?" It has a certain ring to it with "Durk" instead of "Durkon." Briefer, tenser, more savage. :smallbiggrin:

Great! We can then refer to him as: "Durk the Glaring." :smallbiggrin:

Bonus: T and the Gang .

[LuPuWei]

And in the german translation we'd call him:

Der Malackson, brother to Die Fledermaus...

[Oshirokita]

Tarquin's Quintet ?

Durkoff ?

[Pokonic]

What about the Tgang? :smallbiggrin:

[Emanick]

What about the Tgang? :smallbiggrin:

If the Western Continent is modeled after any real-world culture, it's probably that of North Africa, not Vietnam. :smalltongue:

[Jay R]

He was Count Dracula before becoming undead; he is Count Dracula after becoming undead.

He was Vecna before becoming undead; he is Vecna after becoming undead.

He was Imhotep before becoming undead; he is Imhotep after becoming undead.

He was Casper before becoming undead; he is Casper after becoming undead.

He was Xykon before becoming undead; he is Xykon after becoming undead.

I therefore conclude that ...

He was Durkon Thundershield before becoming undead. He is Durkon Thundershield after becoming undead.

[F.Harr]

He was Count Dracula before becoming undead; he is Count Dracula after becoming undead.

He was Vecna before becoming undead; he is Vecna after becoming undead.

He was Imhotep before becoming undead; he is Imhotep after becoming undead.

He was Casper before becoming undead; he is Casper after becoming undead.

He was Xykon before becoming undead; he is Xykon after becoming undead.

I therefore conclude that ...

He was Durkon Thundershield before becoming undead. He is Durkon Thundershield after becoming undead.

. . .

. . .

. . .

Nah! That's no fun. Durkula it is!

[RadagastTheBrow]

He was Count Dracula before becoming undead; he is Count Dracula after becoming undead.

He was Vecna before becoming undead; he is Vecna after becoming undead.

He was Imhotep before becoming undead; he is Imhotep after becoming undead.

He was Casper before becoming undead; he is Casper after becoming undead.

He was Xykon before becoming undead; he is Xykon after becoming undead.

I therefore conclude that ...

He was Durkon Thundershield before becoming undead. He is Durkon Thundershield after becoming undead.

That's actually very poetic and well said. Except I always thought Vecna was a girl. Oh dear undead Gods, does this mean we're going to have fifty threads about Vecna's speculated gender? I take it back, I take it back!!!!!

[Ramien]

That's actually very poetic and well said. Except I always thought Vecna was a girl. Oh dear undead Gods, does this mean we're going to have fifty threads about Vecna's speculated gender? I take it back, I take it back!!!!!

I think any relevant bits have long since rotted away.. or become the worst artifacts ever. Eye? Hand? You haven't seen anything yet...

[Bulldog Psion]

I think any relevant bits have long since rotted away.. or become the worst artifacts ever. Eye? Hand? You haven't seen anything yet...

Pass the brain bleach, please. Extra-concentrated. :smallyuk:

[ti'esar]

The really disturbing thought there is that you just know some adventuring schmuck is going to want to use them...

[Bulldog Psion]

Tsukiko would be highly interested. :smalleek:

[LuPuWei]

For the record,



He was Imhotep before becoming undead;

And after undeath he became ImHoTEP! ImHoTEP!! ImHoTEP!!!

[Jay R]

For the record,



And after undeath he became ImHoTEP! ImHoTEP!! ImHoTEP!!!

So you're arguing for DurKON! DurKON!! DurKON!!!

[LuPuWei]

So you're arguing for DurKON! DurKON!! DurKON!!!

Well that or preferably something with three syllables like ThunDerSHIELD! or, heh, DurKuLA!!

[Souhiro]

TT makes me think of "titty" or what some Spanish-speaking children call their aunts.

I -was- a spanish speaking child (a ton of years ago) and I called my aunt "Taataa" nor "titty". That, or "Aniquiladora Total" (Total Annihilator Lady) for a certain incident that she don't want to talk...

As for the Team Tarkin my friends and me tend to call them "The Mighly Maiming Tarkin Rangers"

[F.Harr]

The MMTR's, O.K.

[Sir_Leorik]

He was Count Dracula before becoming undead; he is Count Dracula after becoming undead.

Actually he was Prince Vlad III Drakula of Wallachia (called the Tepes by those who hated him). I think that when the Prince was making his travel arrangements, the Wallachian/English dictionary he consulted mistranslated "Voivode" as "Count", and Mr. Harker and his compatriots refered to Prince Vlad as "Count" throughout their adventures.

(By contrast, Count von Count is an actual Count. He is from the County of Counting, and like all Vampires, Count von Count suffers from an obsessive compulsion to count any objects he sees, such as beads, poppy seeds, flower petals, glasses of lemonade, rubber duckies, bottle caps, garbage cans or annoying red Muppets he'd like to strangle, if not for the whole Black Ribbon thing. But no one ever said swearing off blood would be easy did they?)


He was Vecna before becoming undead; he is Vecna after becoming undead.

No he wasn't. Vecna took that name upon becoming a Lich.


He was Casper before becoming undead; he is Casper after becoming undead.

But do we know his last name? And what about those persistent rumors that Casper was Richie Rich in life?

[F.Harr]

Tarquin and the Tarquettes.

[Jay R]

Actually he was Prince Vlad III Drakula of Wallachia (called the Tepes by those who hated him). I think that when the Prince was making his travel arrangements, the Wallachian/English dictionary he consulted mistranslated "Voivode" as "Count", and Mr. Harker and his compatriots refered to Prince Vlad as "Count" throughout their adventures.

The crucial point stands, however. He was Dracula after he was a vampire because he was Dracula before he was a vampire.


(By contrast, Count von Count is an actual Count. He is from the County of Counting, and like all Vampires, Count von Count suffers from an obsessive compulsion to count any objects he sees, such as beads, poppy seeds, flower petals, glasses of lemonade, rubber duckies, bottle caps, garbage cans or annoying red Muppets he'd like to strangle, if not for the whole Black Ribbon thing. But no one ever said swearing off blood would be easy did they?)

I like to believe that counting is a coping mechanism, substituting a harmless obsession for a harmful one.


No he wasn't. Vecna took that name upon becoming a Lich.

That's news to me. And if true, it's a retcon. He was originally named for Jack Vance (it's an anagram), whose books provided the mechanic of D&D magic. But I haven't read any of the more recent descriptions. Can you tell me his original name, and what source provided it?


But do we know his last name? And what about those persistent rumors that Casper was Richie Rich in life?

Casper's last name was McFadden, according to the historical documents. And Casper and Richie Rich appeared in the same stories starting in 1974, in the comic book, Richie Rich and Casper.

[Sir_Leorik]

The crucial point stands, however. He was Dracula after he was a vampire because he was Dracula before he was a vampire.

Yes, he was Drakula before becoming a Vampire, but only because his father was Drakul. :smallwink:


I like to believe that counting is a coping mechanism, substituting a harmless obsession for a harmful one.

Nope. All Vampires are obsessed with counting loose objects. It's part of Vampire Lore: you scatter seeds, rice, beans, beads, grain, coins, and they will be compelled to count them and put them in a nice orderly manner. It's best to just dump them into the Vampire's coffin, so they spend the whole night counting, rather than going out to feed, but it's also a good way to keep them from pursuing you. (I bet you never realized that Count von Count's depiction is more in keeping with Vampire Lore than anything Stephanie Meyers regurgitated onto her laptop did you? Even Count von Count's ability to walk around in broad daylight conforms to the belief that Vampires are at their strongest at high Noon. :smallbiggrin:)


That's news to me. And if true, it's a retcon. He was originally named for Jack Vance (it's an anagram), whose books provided the mechanic of D&D magic. But I haven't read any of the more recent descriptions. Can you tell me his original name, and what source provided it?

Vecna's name is an anagram of Jack Vance, but Vecna never appeared in an AD&D module as a character until Vecna Lives; before that his only appearances were references in Eldritch Wizardry and the AD&D DMG regarding the Hand and Eye of Vecna and the Sword of Kas. Both of those references were by EGG, who named him in homage to Jack Vance. But Vecna the character was born as a Flan slave, whose mother was executed by followers of Pholtus on suspicions of being a witch. Vecna learned Wizardry and got the secret of lichdom from Orcus, forging an Empire in the Sheldomar Valley (in the area known as the Rushmoors in the current Greyhawk timeline). Vecna's original name is lost to history; all that is known is that he took the name Vecna either upon becoming a Lich or shortly thereafter, because he believed anyone knowing his true name would have power over him. As it stands, hiding his true name didn't protect Vecna from the enemy who nearly killed him: his treacherous Vampire lietenant, Kas. Kas' intelligent magic sword egged the Vampire into confronting Vecna. They fought, and the only remains were the Sword, and Vecna's Hand and Eye (and a few other body parts that are not really significant).


Casper's last name was McFadden, according to the historical documents. And Casper and Richie Rich appeared in the same stories starting in 1974, in the comic book, Richie Rich and Casper.

Eh, they both had crummy '90's movies, so you can understand my mistake. Besides, all Harvey characters look alike to me. :smallwink:

[Souhiro]

Ok, He was called "Dracula" in life (The Real-World Dracula), and "Dracula" in death (The fiction and all) BUT he didn't got an alignment change, nor a personality change due vampirism: Durkon HATED undeads, if he were one AND STILL RETAINED 100% HIS PERSONALITY, he would look for a cleric capable of resurrecting him, and calmly ask for a warm bath in holy water and a quick resurrection.

The point is that Durkon isn't Durkula. durkula "Born" where Durkon died.

[Liliet]

That is, like, exactly what that was. Lawful Good Durkon probably wouldn't kill a named NPC at all unless he had no other choice, and definitely not an unconscious one. Murdering Z was a matter of morality, not squeamishness.

That scene said "I am evil now", not "I am more badass now", to me.
Durkon has killed countless unnamed NPCs on-screen, dare I remind you. Those people were probably not even Evil and were guilty of no more than being born goblinoids. Unlike Z who was a member of Card-Carrying Evil team willingly.

Just how is killing Z morally worse than Durkon's fights before?



Ok, He was called "Dracula" in life (The Real-World Dracula), and "Dracula" in death (The fiction and all) BUT he didn't got an alignment change, nor a personality change due vampirism: Durkon HATED undeads, if he were one AND STILL RETAINED 100% HIS PERSONALITY, he would look for a cleric capable of resurrecting him, and calmly ask for a warm bath in holy water and a quick resurrection.

The point is that Durkon isn't Durkula. durkula "Born" where Durkon died.
And where exactly would Durkon look for the cleric capable of resurrecting him IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT? It's barely been an hour since he regained free will, and all that time has been spent in battle. How is anything Durkon has_not_done_yet indicative of his alignment change?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Durkon has killed countless unnamed NPCs on-screen, dare I remind you. Those people were probably not even Evil and were guilty of no more than being born goblinoids. Unlike Z who was a member of Card-Carrying Evil team willingly.

Just how is killing Z morally worse than Durkon's fights before?

Murdering a helpless opponent is way different than killing an enemy combatant.

[Sir_Leorik]

Ok, He was called "Dracula" in life (The Real-World Dracula), and "Dracula" in death (The fiction and all) BUT he didn't got an alignment change, nor a personality change due vampirism

But is that really true? When did the fictional "Count" Dracula become a Striga? Before he was betrayed by his kinsmen? Before he began his campaign against the Ottomans, where he impaled men, women and children? Or did he became a Vampire after he performed these deeds? Did he in fact sit and eat dinner, while listening to the screams of agony of his victims, as they died slowly from impalement, while he was still alive? The answer is that we don't know. Bram Stoker doesn't tell us how or when Prince Vlad III of Wallachia became the monstrous "Count" Dracula that Jonathan Harker met in Transylvania.


Durkon HATED undeads, if he were one AND STILL RETAINED 100% HIS PERSONALITY, he would look for a cleric capable of resurrecting him, and calmly ask for a warm bath in holy water and a quick resurrection.

The point is that Durkon isn't Durkula. durkula "Born" where Durkon died.

But how much has Durkon actually changed? He's more callous and bloodthirsty now, as Zz'ditri learned, but he's still Roy's friend. I think the real test of how much he's changed will be when he learns whether or not he can drink beer anymore. :smallamused:

On another note, has anyone brought up this scene, where Belkar encourages Durkon to "embrace change" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)? Maybe Durkon took Belkar's words to heart a little too much.

[Liliet]

Murdering a helpless opponent is way different than killing an enemy combatant.

Well, that's true, but that's another issue and has absolutely nothing to do with whether the NPC was named or not. Note the wording of the post I responded to. :smallmad: "What Measure Is a Mook" (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatMeasureIsAMook) is my pet peeve trope ever since I watched "Avatar: The Last Airbender" and realised huge hypocrisy of the ending. So I'm not letting it go even in the internet debate on a tangentinal topic.


And if we do examine "murdering a helpless opponent", it is tapping into a very muddy area. Have you seen an anime movie "Trigun"? It explores these issues. If there's a person you know to be a criminal, an accomplice of a known mass-murderer who has no reason to stop killing now if you let him go... basically a walking weapon of mass destruction, the most powerful member of his team... what's best to do - let him go, most probably dooming some more innocent victims, or kill him while he's helpless? Assuming you have no means to detain him except those that are probably worse than killing or don't solve the problem?

Hmm, in theory, dominating Z until they get to the civilized lands where he can be put in custody would work as a temporary solution. However, he's a high-level Wizard - a person that's unlikely to stay in prison for long. Our heroes have already discussed this in Azure city: letting the Linear Guild (helpless prisoners at the moment) go is both stupid and unethical, finding a prison that can hold them is not an easy task - that's the option they ran with in the end, but the Linear Guild got out eventually, so this proved a bad idea too.

Vamping Z is much, much worse than killing him, as was soul-bind in Azure City. Dominating him until the end of his natural lifespan or until he gets killed, like they did with YukYuk, is, I think, just as bad.

I think that if Durkon took Z prisoner instead and brought him to Roy, Roy would quite likely make the same decision. Roy is not Elan, he's pragmatic and has encountered Nale enough times to notice the pattern.


What really signified an alignment change was sadistic glee with which Durkon executed this solution. But we have yet to see if this change in attitude influences his decisions: D's Lawful, too, and he has been following a code of Good for all his life. If he decides to run with it in undeath too, it's going to be a tough challenge, but as we know, being a dwarf means doing your duty, even if it makes you miserable. Especially if it makes you miserable!

...it would be really fun to read if Rich goes down that route.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Right or wrong, fictional questions of morality often depend on whether the character has a name or not. Maybe the author doesn't write that way, but readers often think that way, and anyway Rich must be aware of the tendency, he jokes about it (e.g. Elan saying "Hooray! The people whose names I know are saved!").

Would LG Durkon have killed any helpless opponent? Probably not. Would LG Durkon have killed a helpless opponent that is important enough to be named? Definitely not. That Z'zditri had a name kind of puts an exclamation point on the sentence that describes that interaction.

You are talking about a "real" comparison of actions, I am talking about a comic one. In fiction, that is a consequential detail.

[Liliet]

Right or wrong, fictional questions of morality often depend on whether the character has a name or not. Maybe the author doesn't write that way, but readers often think that way, and anyway Rich must be aware of the tendency, he jokes about it (e.g. Elan saying "Hooray! The people whose names I know are saved!").

Would LG Durkon have killed any helpless opponent? Probably not. Would LG Durkon have killed a helpless opponent that is important enough to be named? Definitely not. That Z'zditri had a name kind of puts an exclamation point on the sentence that describes that interaction.

You are talking about a "real" comparison of actions, I am talking about a comic one. In fiction, that is a consequential detail.
NO IT IS NOT. It is only consequential as far as readers' reactions go. Sure Rich joked about it, but he also joked about Miko-style paladins, does it mean that they are suddently a proper way to play a paladin now?

If a reader really thinks that a character has never killed anyone because he didn't pay attention to the mooks, it's a genuine mistake. If a reader knows that a character had killed before, but only has significant emotional reaction now that he killed someone we know personally, it's fine too, it's just how this works. However, if a reader declares that a character has changed alignment to Evil because he killed a named NPC while having restricted himself to unnamed ones before... That's just so wrong.

So long as we are talking personal, subjective emotional reactions, I'm fine with this trope. However, as soon as we start talking objective measure that DnD alignment is, these things don't matter anymore. They do not. A murderer who killed a random guy in another country for no reason at all was just as Evil as a murderer who killed your sister, and was probably more Evil than a guy who called her names the day before. You might not have a personal hatred for him, but you have to agree that he deserves stricter punishment than a name-caller. The same applies to fictional characters: fiction is merely a projection of reality and is only valuable as such.


tl;dr - I'm not sold on and heavily object to a Protagonist-Centered Morality (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProtagonistCenteredMorality).

[Zweisteine]

TT should have a name that's on line with previous similar adventuring group names featuring members of Tarquin's family. So maybe the Vector Cabal.

You, good sir, have my vote, or you would, if someone bothered to hold a poll.


Durkon's personality has changed at least a little since becoming a vampire, and his abilities have most certainly changed. This necessitates some way to differentiate, and "Durkula" seems to be as good an idea as any, and, I believe, has become a rather affectionate nickname.

There are some other good reasons for the name that I might list, but I believe the other posters have covered most of them.

On the other hand, I do not expect "Durkula" to last too long as a nickname. Eventually, it will sink in that "Durkula" is here to stay, and as the Order continues to call him Durkon*, we will shift back to using "Durkon" to refer to the Order's beloved walking box of band-aids band-hurts.

Also, "Xykon" not his real name. In fact, the change of name was made at the point he "officially" turned to evil, which somewhat parallels Durkon's situation.


*Though I wouldn't be surprised if Belkar (or Elan) made a Durkula joke at some point.





EDIT:

However, if a reader declares that a character has changed alignment to Evil because he killed a named NPC while having restricted himself to unnamed ones before... That's just so wrong.

It sounds like you assume that is a major part of the reasoning behind the idea that Durkula is evil. The reason Durkon is evil now is because he is a vampire, and vampires, by definition, are evil. I believe that the Giant may have confirmed this somewhere, but I could not find it.

[Liliet]

Well, I don't remember anyone referring to Belkar as "Belkster" in-comic, and yet it's a recurring nickname. I think Durkula is here to stay as a nickname, although I hope D is still himself.

[Zweisteine]

Well, I don't remember anyone referring to Belkar as "Belkster" in-comic, and yet it's a recurring nickname. I think Durkula is here to stay as a nickname, although I hope D is still himself.

Last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html)

[Liliet]

It sounds like you assume that is a major part of the reasoning behind the idea that Durkula is evil. The reason Durkon is evil now is because he is a vampire, and vampires, by definition, are evil. I believe that the Giant may have confirmed this somewhere, but I could not find it.
Well, he might BE Evil, but not ACT Evil. Durkon is as Lawful as he's always been, and his code is a code of Thor, who is Good. If Durkon sticks to it and doesn't let his new sadistic tendencies get the better of him, we'll only ever get facial expressions as proof of his Evilness. And I think it's quite likely: being a dwarf is about doing your duty, even if it makes you miserable. Especially if it makes you miserable!

That "named NPC" part is the only reasoning there is behind the idea that Durkula is a new person who is absolutely unlike what living Durkon used to be. This is the idea I don't like, since it breaks "character development" promised by the Giant for Durkon.

Besides, whether it is a major part of reasoning or not is irrelevant. The moral distinction between named NPCs and unnamed NPCs should never be an argument for or against anything, period. It leads too happily towards statement that there is nothing wrong with Familicide: after all, it's not like we know names of any one of those dragons or Draketooths.



Last panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html)
Thanks. Well, that was the origin of the nickname, but 1) it's been a while and Belkster is still wiith us; 2) I suspect Belkar did not exactly speak about himself in third person.

Durkula is too good to go.

[Evandar]

He's still Durkon to me, you monsters. :smallfrown:

[Liliet]

He's still Durkon to me, you monsters. :smallfrown:

We are the monsters? No, he is the monster now, silly. :smalltongue:

[F.Harr]

For Tarq co., how about, "The Sandsedge Fife and Drum Historical Reinactment Society". You, know, so no one will want to join and no one will wonder what they're up to because they don't want to know.

[Hyena]

I really, really like the idea of calling vampire Durkon "the Count".

[Liliet]

I really, really like the idea of calling vampire Durkon "the Count".

Count Durkula :smallamused:

[Jay R]

As we all know, he is Durkon. His actual name is Durkon Thundershield; everybody calls him "Durkon" in-comic.

People can call him "Durkula" if they like; nobody can stop them. They can call Miko "Little Everloving' Jelly Bean" if they like.

In either case, it won't change a thing.


On another note, has anyone brought up this scene, where Belkar encourages Durkon to "embrace change" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)? Maybe Durkon took Belkar's words to heart a little too much.

Good catch. Since we know that the vampire plot has been in the works for ten years, the Giant probably did have that in mind when he wrote it.

[Zea mays]

At least we know that while Durkon may have embraced becoming an undead abomination, he would never do something as truly perverse as (shudder) shaving his beard.

[ti'esar]

They can call Miko "Little Everloving' Jelly Bean" if they like.

I'm now seriously considering doing this from now on.

[LuPuWei]

The Tarqabal!

[sengmeng]

How about "Tarquin's Trifectorate of Empires, Alliances, and Manipulations"?

[F.Harr]

The Tarqabal!

I've tried something similar, it got ignored.


How about "Tarquin's Trifectorate of Empires, Alliances, and Manipulations"?

I like it.


I'm now seriously considering doing this from now on.

DO IT!

[Gift Jeraff]

Way I see it, the blank template personality seen with Thrall!Durkon "merged" with the real Durkon after Malack died, creating a creature that is still Durkon when it comes to stuff like accents and Law vs Chaos, but the vampire personality kicks in when it comes to certain stuff like feeding, propagating, death, Good vs Evil, etc.

But that's speculation on my part.

Since making this post, I've become more and more convinced that the living Durkon is not in there. Part of it is Durkon's nonchalance to Roy and Belkar's allosaur shenanigans. No expression for his BFF getting eaten? Sure, Roy probably wasn't in serious danger, but still.

The other part of it is wishful thinking. I don't like the idea of the lovable little dwarf being corrupted against his will...I'd much rather think he died fighting the good fight and found peace.

Plus, there's Belkar insisting that the vampire is not Durkon. Of course the guy who is normally a foolish, lying ingrate who didn't care about other people is going to be right when he finally starts to have empathy. It's, like, some kind of narrative law.

[Jay R]

Since making this post, I've become more and more convinced that the living Durkon is not in there.

Well, somebody is in there who thinks of himself as having "changed", refused Nale's offer because he and Zz'dtri are still the same old d*cks, knows Roy and Belkar, wants to save the world, says he can still patch Roy up "just like always", remembers Belkar's alignment, speaks wi' a Scottish accent, and said "I've got me free will back.".

Not "I now have free will." He has his free will back.

There is only one candidate who fits all the evidence.

[rodneyAnonymous]

There is only one candidate who fits all the evidence.

I agree that it's almost certainly "really Durkon", but no, there are two candidates who fit all the evidence. The other one is something with access to all of Durkon's memories and is pretending (or maybe even thinks it's true!) to be the same entity, like he was cloned at the moment of his death.

[Jay R]

I agree that it's almost certainly "really Durkon", but no, there are two candidates who fit all the evidence. The other one is something with access to all of Durkon's memories and is pretending (or maybe even thinks it's true!) to be the same entity, like he was cloned at the moment of his death.

Access to all of Durkon's memory, believes he's Durkon, cloned, and even put back into Durkon's body, but somehow isn't Durkon?

Even if this meant anything, and even if were possible, and even if had happened, what possible evidence could there be that it was the case?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Access to all of Durkon's memory, believes he's Durkon, cloned, and even put back into Durkon's body, but somehow isn't Durkon?

Even if this meant anything, and even if were possible, and even if had happened, what possible evidence could there be that it was the case?

Yes. The so-called evidence is that in some mythologies (just Buffy? have heard others too but have not seen citations), vampires are demons inhabiting mortal bodies. The demon "takes over the body" when it is turned.

He doesn't have to believe he's Durkon (that was just a possibility I suggested), and the "cloned" bit was purely analogy. (I understand the position that it is not meaningful to say a perfect duplicate is not "really" the original person... talking about something else, like an evil spirit controlling the body instead of Durkon's spirit, in a world where spirits verifiably exist.) I only gave two actual conditions: access to memories, pretending to be Durkon.

I think it's improbable too (mainly because in all other vampire fiction I've ever seen, it's the same person, not a body snatcher) but there is precedent.

[ti'esar]

I think it's improbable too (mainly because in all other vampire fiction I've ever seen, it's the same person, not a body snatcher) but there is precedent.

There's precedent in OOTS for this, too: Malack's speech to Durkon about how resurrecting him "is just a complicated way of annihilating the person I am today". Now, I think it's far more likely that just meant Malack considered being a vampire an integral part of his personality, as opposed to "Malack" being literally a different entity than the unnamed lizardfolk shaman who was vampirized 200 years ago. But at least for now, I don't think people arguing that OOTS is using the "body snatcher" view of vampires have no reason for their position.

[Jay R]

Yes. The so-called evidence is that in some mythologies (just Buffy? have heard others too but have not seen citations), vampires are demons inhabiting mortal bodies. The demon "takes over the body" when it is turned.

Do you have an example in which the demon also uses the speech patterns, and memories of the original, and acknowledges his old friends as its friends, and takes on the original quest of the deceased?

If so, please cite the source. If not, those sources are irrelevant to the situation we're discussing.


He doesn't have to believe he's Durkon (that was just a possibility I suggested),

It's not "just a possibility you suggested". It's what we have actually seen in the comic.
"Malack's ash, so I've got me free will back."
"An' I can still patch ye up, jus' like always."

This guy thinks he's Durkon. This guy has Durkon's memory's. This guy is still on Durkon's quest to save the world.


I think it's improbable too (mainly because in all other vampire fiction I've ever seen, it's the same person, not a body snatcher) but there is precedent.

Great. Please cite the precedent - an actual story in which a character's soul is replaced by one with the same accent, memories, and goals, in order to show that it might happen.

Then, please cite one piece of evidence from the strip to indicate the possibility that it has happened.

Otherwise, you're making up your own story, independent of Rich's.

[AKA_Bait]

This guy is still on Durkon's quest to save the world.

I don't think that we can really take that Durkon is still interested in stopping Xykon as evidence that he's the same person. Even an evil being with a totally different (evil) set of motivations can be opposed to Xykon winning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)or the world being destroyed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

[Bulldog Psion]

This again.

I'll just say that it would make the entire turning-him-into-a-vampire thing really worthless if he isn't the same person. Where's the drama in "it's just some random evil spirit using Durkon's body as a puppet"? Where's the character development?

"Not really Durkon's soul" would be dull as dishwater. Boring. Drab. Meaningless.

That's why I think it's really and truly Durkon in there. Just Dark Durkon now. Or Durk Malackssen if you prefer. :smallbiggrin:

[rodneyAnonymous]

stuff

Yeah, someone pretending to be Durkon would mimic his speech patterns and acknowledge his old friends. Those lines don't prove he thinks he's Durkon, they prove he's said things consistent with thinking he's Durkon, which he would do if he is pretending to be Durkon.

Geez. Please stop being so antagonistic. Way more energy is going into attacking the position than trying to understand it.

I think it's extremely improbable (a silly idea, actually) that Durkon is "not really" Durkon, but it's not impossible. We've seen a bunch of stuff that implies it's really Durkon, but nothing that proves it.

It is true in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer universe that vampires are demons inhabiting human corpses. (Citation. (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire)) Some people want that to be true in OOTS, too.

[Jay R]

I don't think that we can really take that Durkon is still interested in stopping Xykon as evidence that he's the same person. Even an evil being with a totally different (evil) set of motivations can be opposed to Xykon winning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)or the world being destroyed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html).

I didn't say that any one thing showed that he was the same person. All of them together are evidence that he's the same person, and there is no evidence in the comic that he isn't the same person.

And the crucial aspect of the quest isn't merely that he is interested in stopping Xykon, but that he's still interested in stopping Xykon. Whoever he was, he was already interested in stopping Xykon before Durkon's death ("world's still at stake, ain't it?").


Geez. Please stop being so antagonistic. Way more energy is going into attacking the position than trying to understand it.

I'm sorry if it comes off as "antagonistic". I don't see any evidence for that position, and so I said so, giving evidence for my position, and asking for the opposing evidence. That's perfectly normal, friendly internet discussion when people disagree. Rather than "attacking the position", I have specifically asked for evidence in that direction.


I think it's extremely improbable (a silly idea, actually) that Durkon is "not really" Durkon, but it's not impossible. We've seen a bunch of stuff that implies it's really Durkon, but nothing that proves it.

Evidence that he is Durkon: He has Durkon's body, Durkon's accent, Durkon's memory, Durkon's goals, he has his free will back, he's patching Roy up "jus' like always", the change in Curing Wounds is that now he has to prepare 'em rather than convertin' em on tha fly, and it was worth pointing out that now he prepares spells at dusk.

Evidence that he is not Durkon: zero (unless somebody supplies some that I haven't noticed).


It is true in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer universe that vampires are demons inhabiting human corpses. (Citation. (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire)) Some people want that to be true in OOTS, too.

I haven't denied that. I asked for evidence for an actual story in which a character's soul is replaced by one with the same accent, memories, and goals, in order to show that it might happen. If there is such an episode on Buffy, what is it? (I don't know; I never watched it.)

Then, please cite one piece of evidence from the strip to indicate the possibility that it has actually happened with Durkon.

Until you cite specific evidence for your position, you will not convince me. But feel free to continue to push for your position any way you like. I won't consider you an antagonist, or accuse you of "attacking my position".

And I'll continue to think about anything you post on the subject.

[rodneyAnonymous]

You said "your position" twice in the last few sentences alone. It is not my position. I disagree with it. Your failure to acknowledge this accounts for a great deal of my interpreting your questioning as antagonistic.

I understand the demand for evidence, but I think it demonstrates that you do not understand that it doesn't exist (unless you count what Malack said about "annihilating the person I am today", but I don't) and I am not claiming it does. It's merely possible that Durkon isn't Durkon. Non-zero probability. Vampirism has been done that way. That's all.

But:

...it would make the entire turning-him-into-a-vampire thing really worthless if he isn't the same person. Where's the drama in "it's just some random evil spirit using Durkon's body as a puppet"? Where's the character development?

[Perseus]

Durkula should stay. It works better than Vampire Durkon because Durkula is (as far as we can tell) a different character from Durkon.

As for Team Tarquin, I like Tarquin & co./Tarquin, Inc.

No proof that Durkon is a different character. Actually it is Durkon with a template.

This isn't Buffy, whose vampire logic is only slightly better than twilight.

Edit: My phone likes to make Durkon become Durkin...

[dps]

I'm fine with the name "Team Tarquin" but if we want to change the terminology, I say let's go with Belkar's "Evil Father Patrol".

[Kish]

I hope, with a great and terrible hope, that in the next few strips, we'll be changing their team name to "dinosaur meat."

[Perseus]

I hope, with a great and terrible hope, that in the next few strips, we'll be changing their team name to "dinosaur meat."

Or another 4 letter word other than meat...

Though I'm curious if the order will somehow get L to use wormhole for them to go fight Xykon... I think she will I just don't know how that will happen.

[F.Harr]

Or another 4 letter word other than meat...

Though I'm curious if the order will somehow get L to use wormhole for them to go fight Xykon... I think she will I just don't know how that will happen.

They'll owe her a favor.

[denthor]

How about:
-Vampire Durkon
-Tarquin's party


I have resisted looking this thread but since my mouse rolled over and the above showed up you really want?

VD
and
TP (think about what a typical teenager does to a house and with what)

I finally failed my will save for this!!

[Psyren]

I like Durkula and will continue to use it :smalltongue:

[chainik]

My favorite name improvement so far for TT was "Vector Cabal" because it follows the same pattern as the other named adventuring parties we've met so far: Order of the Stick, Linear Guild, Order of the Scribble, Fellowship of the Ring -- and because they're clearly a cabal that has both direction and magnitude.

But lately I've been thinking "Axis of Lawful Evil" would also be pretty apt, since Tarquin believes the world revolves around him and his teammates probably fall somewhere in that quadrant of the alignment grid.

[StLordeth]

I can't stand the name "Durkula" lol..

[Joe the Rat]

Hmm, so if someone acts like, thinks like, looks like (mostly), and expresses the memories of a person, and expresses that they are that person, but happens to have the soul of an unseelie fey, be powered by abstract entropy, or made out of snow, they're still really that person?
From a functional perspective, it's a duck Durkon. But it may not fully be the same Durkon.

Durkon-That-Is is really Durkon. There's no body-surfing-demon running things unless you get your soul back. Intelligent, 'free-willed' undead have their souls bound up inside (or inside a trinket, for them lichie-poos), unless you can point me to something in the gamelore or official fluff lit that suggests otherwise - like having a vampire running around with the soul as a separate entity. But Durkon-That-Is is not the same as Durkon-That-Was. Flipping the polarity of his mojo and adding a host of nifty powers is probably not the end of those changes.

You know, this isn't even important. Durkon-That-Is is not the same as Durkon-That-Was. Pre-Darth-V and Post-Darth-V aren't the same, either. You grow, you change. You have much in common with who you were, but you are no longer exactly that person. And you have to accept that about yourself. Otherwise you end up like Little Ever-Lovin' Jelly Bean.


He's still Durkon to me, you monsters. :smallfrown:


We are the monsters? No, he is the monster now, silly. :smalltongue:
So now He is Legend? Alright, now I'm adding The Omega Dwarf.



I'm fine with the name "Team Tarquin" but if we want to change the terminology, I say let's go with Belkar's "Evil Father Patrol".Usage in comic does give weight, and appropriate for the desert setting. And thanks to V, they're "Evil Father Patrol (in color)." Is anyone here old enough to get that one?

[ti'esar]

My favorite name improvement so far for TT was "Vector Cabal" because it follows the same pattern as the other named adventuring parties we've met so far: Order of the Stick, Linear Guild, Order of the Scribble, Fellowship of the Ring -- and because they're clearly a cabal that has both direction and magnitude.

But lately I've been thinking "Axis of Lawful Evil" would also be pretty apt, since Tarquin believes the world revolves around him and his teammates probably fall somewhere in that quadrant of the alignment grid.

Miron comes across as pretty obviously NE.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, I personally, will be using "Evil Father Patrol" and "Durk Malackssen." I make no claims that these are in any way superior to any alternative, but are merely a personal preference.

It does amuse me to see Little Ever-Lovin' Jelly Bean in use, though. :smallbiggrin:

[Evandar]

This thread is absolutely filled with good band names. Evil Father Patrol.

[skim172]

I always preferred "Tarquin & Co." It sounds like it might be the name of a roving acting troupe - just enough flourish to fit Tarquin's theatrical airs, without going overboard.

And now that it's revealed that they're quite business-minded, Tarquin & Co. seems even more appropriate.

And something about "Tarquin and Co" or "Tarquin and Company" just seems to roll off the tongue.


Tarquin and Co.
a member of the Evil Fortune 500


As for the vampirizized Messr. Durkon, I'm a big fan of "Darkon." Short and sweet.

And it kind of sounds like "arch" as in "archvillain" - emphasizing his now-evil status. Or "archon" which makes him sound somewhat highborn and magisterial - perfect for a vampire aristocrat.

Not a huge fan of "Durkula" personally - just sounds awkward and a little difficult to say.


Darkon lives.

C'mon, it just sounds better.