Rate my Races

[Harbinger]

For the game I am running, I decided to restat some LA +1 races that I wanted to use to LA +0. I want you to tell me if they are overpowered, underpowered, or just right.

Goblin: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Charisma

Small size.

Base speed 30 feet.

+4 to Move Silently.

+2 Climb and Balance checks, and to Survival checks relating to navigation.

Hobgoblin: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom.

Base speed 40 feet.

+2 Climb and Balance checks, and to Survival checks relating to navigation.

Medium.

Bugbear: +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -4 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.

Base speed 40 feet.

Orc Blood: For all effects relating to race, the bugbear is considered an orc.

Low light vision.

Medium size.

Gnoll: +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

Darkvision out to 60 feet.

Scent (Ex).

+2 Bonus to Search, Spot and Listen.

Medium size.

Goliath: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

Medium size.

Powerful Build (Ex).

+2 Racial bonus to Fortitude saving throws.

+1 Natural Armor bonus at level one and at every fourth level after that.

Stability.

Base speed 20 feet.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'd say that instead of worrying only about balance, worry about flavour. As it is, these races are, no offense, boring.

For example, for Goblins you could make it look more like;

Goblins Small size
30ft base speed
+2 Dexterity/Charisma
-2 Strength/Constitution
+4 to Move Silently
Wolf Empathy: due to long centuries of working with Worgs, goblins have developed a sixth sense for working with them. As the werewolf racial feature, and they may use a Handle Animal check in place of a Diplomacy when dealing with Worgs.
And another minor bonus that ties into your specific goblinoid fluff


Hobgoblins could have something to do with their military culture (+1 morale bonus to hit when another hobgoblin is within 30ft?) and so on.

[eggynack]

The bugbear is balanced, actually. Water orcs get +4 strength, +2 constitution, and -2 to all mental stats. By contrast, your bugbear is getting his physical boosts to kinda conflicting physical stats, a penalty to the third physical stat, and an overall lower stat modifier. I'd probably take the water orc over the bugbear every time, and he gets a swim speed on top of that. The bugbear is actually a bit underpowered by comparison.

[Harbinger]

The bugbear is balanced, actually. Water orcs get +4 strength, +2 constitution, and -2 to all mental stats. By contrast, your bugbear is getting his physical boosts to kinda conflicting physical stats, a penalty to the third physical stat, and an overall lower stat modifier. I'd probably take the water orc over the bugbear every time, and he gets a swim speed on top of that. The bugbear is actually a bit underpowered by comparison.

You're probably right. I'll give the bugbear some more stuff, though there are no water orcs in my campaign.

[yougi]

I'll second Kuulvheysoon. You need more to make these races interesting. Taking inspiration from 4E's handling of these races could be an interesting idea.

[Harbinger]

I'll second Kuulvheysoon. You need more to make these races interesting. Taking inspiration from 4E's handling of these races could be an interesting idea.

4E doesn't have an SRD and I don't know where else I would find their rules. I've added a few minor things to the races after hearing criticisms.

[TiaC]

The goblin is the only race I wouldn't call underpowered. The Goliath is just terrible. Giving strong races Con penalties makes them unsuited to most builds that could use the strength.

[Harbinger]

The goblin is the only race I wouldn't call underpowered. The Goliath is just terrible. Giving strong races Con penalties makes them unsuited to most builds that could use the strength.

What makes the goliath in particular underpowered? The -4 DEX? If so, should I increase the CON to +4 or decrease the DEX to -2? And what makes the gnoll underpowered?

[Harbinger]

I decided to remove the CON penalty to the bugbear. I want it to stay for the hobgoblin though. Hopefully this will make him less underpowered.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remove con penalties in general to frontliners. Period.

[ArcturusV]

For Goliaths the Dex penalty is part of it, a fairly big part. As it stands? The only things he's really going to be good at is either Barbarian or Fighter, at least out of core classes. The mental penalties make things like Ranger and Paladin a non-starter. Never mind spellcasters or skill users like Rogues. And while a Fighter doesn't necessarily want to spend points for a huge amount of Dex (Other than extra AoO's and feat pre-reqs it doesn't do much for them), due to armor capping their dex bonuses, they don't want a penalty to it as that hurts Initiative (something you really want to win when you don't have the ability to just say you win regardless, for example, and need to close to melee before enemies can prepare themselves to gimp you). Not to mention lower level Barbarians do need Dex to overcome their relatively fragile Light Armored state at low levels.

This means that Goliaths, as it stands, are not really good at any of the core base classes. Except MAAAAYBE fighter. And even then not really. Not to mention one of the key reasons to go Goliath is for Powerful Build, which you nixed.

Also keep in mind "unbalanced" stat adjustments, meaning that you end up with a net positive or a net negative, tend to make for bad races. Why is half-orc often considered the bastard unwanted child of core player races? Because you end up with a net -2 to your stats by picking it, and you lack any sort of real racial bonuses to compensate for it. Even their favored class of Barbarian is, in core, better on say... a Dwarf as a Dwarf will get an extra round of Raging out of it compared to a similar Orc, and actually have some racial abilities.

Note that the Bugbear, as you have it, makes a much better Barbarian than the Goliath does. it's faster, it doesn't really take a penalty to anything a Barbarian cares about (Except maybe Cha for Intimidate, but that's minor). Due to being Orc Blooded it can enter the Orc Paragon PrC which isn't a bad option.

The Hobgoblin is another weird race, in that looking at its bonuses... I'm not really sure what sort of class they are naturally gravitating towards. This is one of the good things about Favored Class sections when you do racial design. I know most people want to just say "any" because strictly speaking it's the superior option. Which is why humans have it. But thinking about what class a given race is gifted at means that you have to think about it, and figure out just "Hmm... if I was using this... what would I want to be at first look". If you can't think of something.... there's probably a problem.

Con Penalty, yeah. It sticks out as a sore thumb as with Strength and Dex you might have considered a Ranger, or a Barbarian. But both are ill suited to living with a Con Penalty (And Wisdom Penalty in the case of Ranger). Same with say, Monk, as a higher starting speed, strength and dex would be nice for them.... but wisdom penalty and con penalty are killers. Cleric? Same deal. Druid? Heh, no. I just can't think of a single core class they'd really be good at naturally.

Gnoll has that problem where the grand total stat adjustment is -2. It also has the half-orc problem in that, in return for being effectively weaker because you wrote "Gnoll" on the race line... you don't really gain anything all that interesting for it. Not unless you're going to whip up a lot of stuff that requires you to be a gnoll to use. Unlike others I mentioned, they could at least make somewhat decent Druids, or maybe Rangers. So at least there's that. But they're not really excelling at anything. And have the added weakness of Light Sensitivity, making me wonder if you're overvaluing either Darkvision (It's not really THAT good), or the +2 racial skill bonuses.

Goblin is the one I haven't really touched on. All said? They're not bad. They're boring, that's about it. They could make for a decent rogue chassis, so there's an obvious favored class there, good, good. But that's about it. There just isn't very much compelling about them. Nor does what fit there really seem to reflect "Goblins" as they tend to exist in most games and settings. I think it needs to show something else that gives it a racial flavor. Nothing as huge as a bonus feat really, but something small like other Racial Bonuses. Something like: Pack Hunter. When an enemy is flanked by the Goblin, the Goblin gains an additional +2 to Hit, and +2 to damage. Goblins are cowardly by nature but viscous, and train to overwhelm and swarm opponents, using harassment, distraction, and opportunity to wear down physically superior enemies.

[Harbinger]

-long wall of useful text-

Thank you for your thorough, in depth response. I've re-added Powerful Build to the goliath and changed the DEX penalty to -2. Does this balance them out, or should I change more? As for the gnoll, I changed the CHA penalty back to -2 and removed Light Sensitivity (I really had no reason to add it in the first place). I'll try thinking of some more things to add to the gnoll and the goblin to make them more interesting.

Something I should probably say regarding my fluff text, though: In my campaign world, goblins are seafaring traders and are part of the same nation as hobgoblins and orcs. That's why I gave them a +2 to Profession. Bugbears are half-orc, half-hobgoblins.

[ArcturusV]

I figured that for the Sailor thing. It's low impact though, and probably won't come up. Short of naval campaigns you won't really use profession: Sailor. So you can get the same effect and provide more relevant bonuses.

I'd probably go for something like: +2 to survival checks when dealing with navigation and wayfinding, and +2 to Balance and Climb as they are used to living on rolling decks and climbing rigging.

Climb and Balance, are... kinda niche? But they're more likely to come up in an average adventure than Profession: Sailor by magnitudes.

Goliaths are looking better. Though I'd like to see the natural armor scaling a bit. As I find flat, static natural armor is kinda boring and seldom useful. By the time you hit level 2-3 and can afford the armors you really want it stops being really meaningful.

So something like +1 Natural Armor for every 2 levels as well. That at least keeps it to the point where a player is likely to remember it. +11 at level 20 isn't huge by any stretch of the imagination. But it can be useful and if someone decides to really go skyhigh for the AC it'll come into play more.

But that might be TOO powerful for zero LA.

So... I dunno. Might nix the natural armor or try to make it better. Maybe +1 every 4 levels?

[Harbinger]

I figured that for the Sailor thing. It's low impact though, and probably won't come up. Short of naval campaigns you won't really use profession: Sailor. So you can get the same effect and provide more relevant bonuses.

I'd probably go for something like: +2 to survival checks when dealing with navigation and wayfinding, and +2 to Balance and Climb as they are used to living on rolling decks and climbing rigging.

Climb and Balance, are... kinda niche? But they're more likely to come up in an average adventure than Profession: Sailor by magnitudes.

Goliaths are looking better. Though I'd like to see the natural armor scaling a bit. As I find flat, static natural armor is kinda boring and seldom useful. By the time you hit level 2-3 and can afford the armors you really want it stops being really meaningful.

So something like +1 Natural Armor for every 2 levels as well. That at least keeps it to the point where a player is likely to remember it. +11 at level 20 isn't huge by any stretch of the imagination. But it can be useful and if someone decides to really go skyhigh for the AC it'll come into play more.

But that might be TOO powerful for zero LA.

So... I dunno. Might nix the natural armor or try to make it better. Maybe +1 every 4 levels?

All of those seem like good ideas to me and I have included them in the races. Thanks. I also gave the gnoll the Scent ability.