PDA

View Full Version : Non-Vancian Revisions [class]



Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-28, 12:25 PM
I just had a dream - no, really - in which Clerics were better, more real. I don't normally dream about D&D mechanics, so I thought I'd better write this down before I forget.

In the RAW, Clerics pray for spells and their stingy god(s) grant them a list at the start of the day, no matter how useless it will be at the end of that day.

I don't like this anymore. It doesn't sit right.


What if, instead... Clerics pray - and they get all their spells spontaneously, like a sorcerer with access to the whole Cleric list? The number they can cast is still the same, but they can choose any Cleric spell normally accessible to them at the time of casting.I dunno - that seems a bit too powerful.

What if... Clerics pray and they ask for spells, and they get a list which they can choose from as though it were the sorcerer's known spells list? This keeps the restriction of a list of spells, but gives more flexibility that I feel is more consistent with Divine power.
Druids, Rangers and Paladins will get the same treatment.As far as balance goes, don't panic. Giving some much variety to Clerics and the like without altering the rest of the classes will break the game and everyone will just be praying their butts off and laughing at the puny arcanists. I know. Here's my plan:

Wizards are going to be getting a similar makeover, too. I hate that "learning a spell twice" thing, it just sucks conceptually. I think Wizards ought to get to revise a list of spells (up to the maximum per level they could cast), then cast from that each day in whatever order and number they like.
I'll be chucking out Sorcerers with this ruling, or giving them light armour like the Bard. Maybe they ought to get some metamagic feats as compensation for losing their schtick to other classes...
To the non-casting classes I will be granting access to a track of Super Weapon Focus and Specialisation (available as feats to casting classes, but automatic to fighters, barbarians and rogues at certain appropriate levels) that really beef up their skill with one (or two) chosen weapon(s).
The system for this I will be modifying from the Classic D&D game. In that system you got increased base damage (eventually, vastly increased), and stuff like "Deflection", whereby you can turn aside a few attacks per round. It let Fighters stay toe-to-toe at higher level with the wizards of that old game, who were far more powerful otherwise.
I understand the balance limitations, but that's why I'm posting concepts here, so they can be ripped up and stuck back together in a working way.

Have I gone mad? Is this just stupid? Let's talk.

jlousivy
2006-12-28, 10:11 PM
Mad? maybe a little bit, but this will pretty much just be some new tabletop with some dnd concepts, since you in effect, potentially removing a class, and altering how all spellcasters operate.

but i can see this becoming pretty good, but remember, remember to buff the monsters acordingly

Yakk
2006-12-29, 12:20 AM
For all spellcasting classes:

Use Sorc Level+1 "Spells Known".
Use Wizard for "Spells per day".

In addition to spells per day, every class gets a "spells per battle" slot for every spell rank.

Wizards are specialists, but don't have a barred school. The bonus spell can be cast once per battle.

Cleric's domain spells can be cast once per battle. The domain spells are in addition to spells known.

Druid's get a bonus "Summon Nature's Ally" for each rank that can be cast once per battle per spell rank.

All classes must search for scrolls to learn spells. Divine spellcasters don't have spell books -- they can learn a new spell from a scroll (which consumes it) only by replacing an old one.

Wizards have spell books. Wizards cannot copy spells from other Wizard's spellbooks, but they can (via read magic) inscribe a scroll from them. This action destroys the original writing. Wizards can scribe scrolls into their spell book, but this destroys the scroll.

This makes finding a new spell very valueable for every class. Spells can be found in many formats -- some races use runes, some use enchanted gems, and some use paper.

Wizards can change which spells they know if they have their spellbook. This takes 25-Wizard Level minutes per level of the spell. They can also "read directly from the spellbook", but this takes 10 times as long as casting it normally, and costs two spell slots in energy. (Less than 1 standard action spells take a full round, standard action and full round spells take 1 minute).

I propose forcing MAD on spellcasters as follows:
Wizards use Int as bonus spells/day and bonus spells known.
Wizards use one of Wis or Cha for resists, depending on the source of their magic.

Clerics use Wis for bonus spells/day and Int for bonus spells known, and Cha for resists.

Druids use Cha for bonus spells/day and Int for bonus spells known, and Wis for resists.

The stat bonus from the spells/day and spells known stats give bonus cantrips known and cantrips/battle.

No healing spell or spell with persistant constructive effects is allowed on a per-battle basis. This means the healing domain is right out.

Siberys
2006-12-29, 03:12 AM
Basically what you're describing is Spontaneous Divine Casting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), Which I actually use in my games.

To bring casters all in line (especially with Meleers), I gave them all Sorcerer Spells/day, for Divine gave them Sor Spells Known, and [shameless plug]added a skill/fatigue system I developed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1749485#post1749485)[/shameless plug]. I also added a number of bonus feats to Sorcs, gave them d6 HD, use Arcane Domains for both (but Sorcs get two, though only one bonus spell / spell level), and nerfed Wild Shape to 1 round/level, and clerics get divine feats every so many levels instead of auto-turning.

Thus,


Sorcs
Very flexible, more hardy

Wizards
Many more spells known than anyone else, very versatile

Cleric
Fewer Spells, but very focused

Druid
Fewer Spells, Similarly focused, and not doing THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-29, 03:59 AM
You, uh, do know that the wizard fluff isn't "memorizing the spell" anymore, right? Instead, wizards cast most of the spell at the beginning of the day, leaving a short "trigger" unspoken/gestured; when they want to actually cast the spell, they complete the trigger and the spell goes off.

Altair_the_Vexed
2006-12-29, 06:54 AM
You, uh, do know that the wizard fluff isn't "memorizing the spell" anymore, right? Instead, wizards cast most of the spell at the beginning of the day, leaving a short "trigger" unspoken/gestured; when they want to actually cast the spell, they complete the trigger and the spell goes off.

Yes, I know that, and it still sucks. :biggrin:
It's inconsistent - why do all wizards have to spend one hour preparing spells, no matter how many spells they're preparing? Why do wizards have to spend an hour preparing spells and then still have the same casting times as Sorcerers who spend no time preparing?
The answer of course is that it's fluff added in to balance the game.

Siberys: No, I'm not quite describing the Spontaneous Divine Casting variant that you've linked to. Thanks, though. What I'm after is a much wider variation, that can be prayed for each day. I know this makes them more versatile and powerful, so I've thought up buffs for the other classes.

Yakk: I think your solution makes the spellcasters way more powerful that what I'm proposing - you're giving out extra spells per day. The saves you propose are interesting though. I think I'll playtest that.

Jlousivy: I'm not mad, I prefer the term mentally hilarious. :biggrin:
Yes, this will be a game that resembles D&D very closely and uses most of the d20 SRD system for combat etc, etc, but has some effectively new classes. What can I say, I have big plans.

Buffing up the monsters accordingly is a good point: it needs to be a tweak to reflect the versatility of casters, and the increased damage at higher levels. I think I'll try this:

Non-hero-classed monsters get a bonus to all saves equal to their INT or CHA modifier, whichever is higher.
Non-hero-classed monsters get a HP bonus equal to their CR.Fair?

Yakk
2006-12-29, 06:40 PM
Yakk: I think your solution makes the spellcasters way more powerful that what I'm proposing - you're giving out extra spells per day. The saves you propose are interesting though. I think I'll playtest that.

The advantage is mainly at lower levels -- by higher levels they have lots of spell slots. It mainly boosts casters at low levels, when casters feel pretty useless, and makes casters use domain/spec spells alot more freely.

It doesn't boost their power per combat.