How I'd do a low magic setting in 3.5

[gooddragon1]

-No Spells above 4th level directly available to PCs.
-No Psionics above 4th level directly available to PCs.
-Cautious use of higher level spells and psionics by monsters and NPCs (no Disjunction for example)
-Items cannot be crafted but making offerings to an altar of some kind (of GP or XP and GP curiously equal to the desired item crafting requirements or base price...) can result in an item being made for you or even an existing item being improved. Though you must "earn" the item first.
-Altars can also cast higher level spells like resurrection with the appropriate offering (curiously equal to the costs...)

Etc.

[JusticeZero]

So basically E8? I will note that low magic items means that the casters are going to be really really powerful. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" applies in every setting with restricted items. The magic items are what the mundanes use to narrow the gap.

[gooddragon1]

So basically E8? I will note that low magic items means that the casters are going to be really really powerful. "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" applies in every setting with restricted items. The magic items are what the mundanes use to narrow the gap.

Actually, the items aren't exactly restricted. The player makes an offering at an altar and gets the item they need. This prevents the valorous enchantment from happening but if they should happen to want the transmuting enhancement and have earned it (at the right level of course) then it's perfectly acceptable. +5 Collision Transmuting Aptitude Greatsword? No problem if you've earned each of those enhancements. Want gauntlets of permanent true striking? Your offering is not accepted.

[ddude987]

Instead of doing that, use one of the many guides for removing the christmas tree effect, play e8, and make magic items few and far between but exceptionally interesting

[MirddinEmris]

Even with this restrictions the setting wouldn't be "low magic"? because even if the magic is less powerful, it's still cheap. When someone can cast abundance of spells every day as easy as someone else chops the wood, it's not a low magic. Magic has to be something rare and every instance of it should be somewhat special.

That's of course only my opinion )

[Eldest]

I've seen a lovely idea for low magic about, let's see what I can recall about it...

All full casters are banned. Ur-priest and any method of getting a spell above 6th level is banned*.
*SLA are allowed on a case by case basis
Bards, Warlocks (for crafting and using scrolls), and Factotums are now the new "full casters". Adepts also exist, for several heal spells that just don't exist otherwise.
There are very few magic items (1/3rd WBL). Instead, you get points according to a system that I cannot seem to find right now that emulate the basics (saves, flight, magic weapons, stat boosts, etc).

[lsfreak]

There are very few magic items (1/3rd WBL). Instead, you get points according to a system that I cannot seem to find right now that emulate the basics (saves, flight, magic weapons, stat boosts, etc).

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134805) might be what you're thinking of.

[tasw]

take a look at the old school "chance to learn a spell tables" reduce said chance by whatever percentage you deem appropriate for your setting.

Add in a system of caster level requirements to craft items based on their bonus. You will still see a fair number of weak items logically, but almost no one complains about weak items. So whatever.

When building NPC casters, dont use the chance to learn a spell tables. Just eyeball it and dont make them uber. Judgement is key to low magic.

And if you really want to limit casters you can make them make a spell craft to cast a spell successfully the same way that a fighter has to make an attack roll to attack successfully.

Make that caster level check as hard as you want. Super low magic? DC 20+spell level X2. Basically normal magic? DC 10+spell level.

Dont worry about what level 15+ mages can do. You will almost certainly never get there. If you do, congrats, you ran a really long, good (the players stuck around after all) campaign and its time to retire the players.

Epic level stuff? Dont worry about balancing it. It doesnt belong in low magic anyway.

[Eldest]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134805) might be what you're thinking of.

It is! Thank you.

[Piedmon_Sama]

-Items cannot be crafted but making offerings to an altar of some kind (of GP or XP and GP curiously equal to the desired item crafting requirements or base price...) can result in an item being made for you or even an existing item being improved. Though you must "earn" the item first.
-Altars can also cast higher level spells like resurrection with the appropriate offering (curiously equal to the costs...)

Etc.

So characters don't need the craft feats? That sounds fine by me, I find I have less and less patience for feat taxes the longer I play 3.5.

The real way to play 3.5 low magic IMO is to give everyone two free feats at level 1 and more and more bonus feats after that. Instead of being forced to stick to one chain let Rogues, Monks etc. have a few really unique tricks and be distinctive on the battlefield. Fighters should be the masters of almost any weapon they get their hands on and able to adapt to many enemies.

Ed: And if you want to play low magic, just ban the wizard class or prepare for some long, aggravating arguments :V

[Psyren]

-No Psionics above 4th level directly available to PCs.

You're capping ML too, right? Because with the right powers, a PC manifester can effectively achieve effects greater than 4th-level by augmenting.

[Hammerpriest]

And if you really want to limit casters you can make them make a spell craft to cast a spell successfully the same way that a fighter has to make an attack roll to attack successfully.

Make that caster level check as hard as you want. Super low magic? DC 20+spell level X2. Basically normal magic? DC 10+spell level.


That DC 20+ Spell Levelx2 Caster level spell check doesn't make a campaign low magic. It makes it no magic at levels 1-2, ludicrously low magic at levels 3-4, and finally having a higher than 15% chance to cast a first level spell after 5th. Even the DC 10+ Spell level check is a nightmare because at first level you have a 50% chance to cast a spell, and it only goes up by 5% each time. If it's just a skill check then it's better because a level 1 caster can rock a +8 to spellcraft at level one and it only goes up from there. Either way, it'd be much easier to limit magic by just banning out T1s, T2s, and cherry picking which T3s you want to keep.

Or run E6 or E8. That's what I would do to run a low-magic campaign.

[TheStranger]

Ed: And if you want to play low magic, just ban the wizard class and prepare for some long, aggravating arguments :V

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

I think you have to start by defining what you mean by "low magic," because it's at least as much a thematic goal as a mechanical one. Do you want magic to be rare, but still powerful? Rare and weak? Plentiful, but not powerful enough to have a major impact on the setting? Do you just want to "balance" melee and spellcasting? Do you want your game to feel more like Conan? Are you specifically trying to avoid the christmas tree effect?

There are dozens of more or less okay ways to nerf casters, but almost every adventuring party will still have one or more unless you nerf them into uselessness, so it's hard to call that low magic. The thing that you want to avoid to give the game a real low magic feel is the PCs having access to magic. That sounds silly, but if you just limit NPC magic, build your setting with magic being rare, but then give the PCs access to magic, the game won't feel like a low magic game. Personally, I'd start by outright banning any class that gets spellcasting at or near level 1.

3.5 doesn't really do low magic well. It can be done, but it requires that you be willing to consider how things will affect the them of your game and ban everything that doesn't fit. Then you need to rebalance encounters on the fly because the mechanics are based on access to spells and magical gear. Then you need to consider the consequences of removing magical healing, transport, information-gathering, etc., and adjust your game accordingly. There's a lot more to it than just nerfing spellcasters (nerfing spellcasters is great, but it doesn't make your game low magic).

[lsfreak]

You're capping ML too, right? Because with the right powers, a PC manifester can effectively achieve effects greater than 4th-level by augmenting.

I'm not entirely sure that's necessary, considering Vancian casters can still get CL boosts (for damage spells), and can grab a metamagic reducer or two as well. Are there particular tricks you're referring to that boost your ML by crazy levels, or particular spells that really go beyond 4th-level power, or are we primarily talking about getting a few extra damage dice a bit easier than Vancian can?

[Karnith]

I'm not entirely sure that's necessary, considering Vancian casters can still get CL boosts (for damage spells), and can grab a metamagic reducer or two as well. Are there particular tricks you're referring to that boost your ML by crazy levels, or particular spells that really go beyond 4th-level power, or are we primarily talking about getting a few extra damage dice a bit easier than Vancian can?
Augmented low-level powers frequently function equivalently to high-level spells, in ways beyond just dealing more damage or upping the save DC. I'm not terribly familiar with psionics, but off the top of my head Psionic Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm) (a 4th-level power) can be augmented up to effectively be Dominate Monster, and/or to affect multiple creatures.

[Tvtyrant]

My current E6 campaign works in a way similar to this, but everything caps out at 3rd level spells.

My suggestion is monster can user their SLAs of higher level spells, but not actually cast spells of higher than the cap. There is nothing there at all.

[lsfreak]

Augmented low-level powers frequently function equivalently to high-level spells, in ways beyond just dealing more damage or upping the save DC. I'm not terribly familiar with psionics, but off the top of my head Psionic Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm) (a 4th-level power) can be augmented up to effectively be Dominate Monster, and/or to affect multiple creatures.

I suppose I did assume a soft-cap of CL/ML of 8th level, and you can't go above that without various CL/ML-boosters. But with such a restriction in place, are there psionic powers noticeably out-of-line with other 4th level powers/spells, or spells cast with a metamagic reducer on them? Or is that what you and Psyren are arguing, that such a soft cap should be in place?

[Seffbasilisk]

Why not just have spells have a 5% per spell level chance of draining XP equal to XD6 where X is the level of the spell?

Wouldn't change too much for the heavy hitters, but would make magic more costly and less likely to be whipped out.

[Hammerpriest]

Why not just have spells have a 5% per spell level chance of draining XP equal to XD6 where X is the level of the spell?

Wouldn't change too much for the heavy hitters, but would make magic more costly and less likely to be whipped out.

Well, you know what they say about that experience river and what not. The easiest way to do it is to limit magic for both players and enemies unilaterally. Otherwise the balance of the game falls even more apart as 3.x assumes a high amount of magic on both sides of the field.

[Seffbasilisk]

Well, you know what they say about that experience river and what not. The easiest way to do it is to limit magic for both players and enemies unilaterally. Otherwise the balance of the game falls even more apart as 3.x assumes a high amount of magic on both sides of the field.

You're right, XP only challenges the metagame. Double it up, and have it hit their HP. Only the buffest buffers may survive.

[Glimbur]

You're right, XP only challenges the metagame. Double it up, and have it hit their HP. Only the buffest buffers may survive.

In fiction, it is interesting to have a wizard who has Great Cosmic Power but cannot use it casually, for reasons. Gandalf is the textbook example of this. Fiction is written by one (or several) author(s) and they are involved in the entire world.

Role playing games allow each player to control one character, generally speaking. They become more invested in that one character, and they want to be able to affect the world with that character. If a character is focused on being able to cast spells, but magic cannot be used except in emergencies, what do they do for the rest of the time? Why not bring an archer or a thief or someone to help prevent the emergencies that can always work at full power?

In general fixes to magic that make it more dangerous push the people with less system mastery away. People that enjoy tinkering with rules will explore ways around it. It is very difficult to find the sweet spot where the limitations on magic cannot be bypassed but are not so bad as to make playing a spellcaster not worth doing.

As I just said to someone else in another thread, the root problem is that magic Does It Better (TM). The way I would recommend fixing this is not making magic more hazardous but just as powerful, but by restricting the power of magic by nerfing spells or restricting access to them a la beguiler.