Is the PF Summoner's Eidolon Sentient?

[OOPWER]

I was reading through the Advanced Player's Guide and I noticed that it's not really mentioned whether or not the Eidolon is a sentient being or not. Much of it has to do with what the Summoner wants (Explicitly stating that the Eidolon is shaped by the Summoner's desires, not to mention following the Summoner's orders.) rather than there being some sort of pact between the two. So the question is in the title: Is the Eidolon a sentient being?

I ask because I was thinking about rolling one but wasn't sure as to whether or not it gets its own personality.

[Spuddles]

Yes



Haverisjsnshdjdiejdnskanrid

[Bhaakon]

They have a starting INT of 7, so the answer is "yes" by definition. A normal eidolon is sentient, if a bit on the dim side (barring intelligence-boosting evolutions).

A synthesist's eidiolon is less clear, since:


...the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).

So while I guess in a technical sense a synthesist's eidolon still has that 7 intelligence on its sheet, in practice it's just a brainless sock puppet. It seems like a synthesist's eidolon leaves its sentience--if it has any--back in whatever plane it originated from.

[Dr. Yes]

They have a starting INT of 7, so the answer is "yes" by definition. A normal eidolon is sentient, if a bit on the dim side (barring intelligence-boosting evolutions).

A synthesist's eidiolon is less clear, since:



So while I guess in a technical sense a synthesist's eidolon still has that 7 intelligence on its sheet, in practice it's just a brainless sock puppet. It seems like a synthesist's eidolon leaves its sentience--if it has any--back in whatever plane it originated from.

Depending on how you interpret it, the implications of Synthesist summoning can be pretty horrific. Imagine things from the eidolon's perspective: you're minding your own business on whatever outer plane you hail from when all of a sudden you're pulled into another world, deprived of all agency, and worn like a coat by some deranged spellcaster as he runs around using your hands/jaws/tentacles/whatever to mercilessly slaughter his enemies. Whether you remember it or not, you find yourself enthralled and removed from your home for extended periods of time, likely most of your time.

Then your body starts to change.

[Vortenger]

Depending on how you interpret it, the implications of Synthesist summoning can be pretty horrific. Imagine things from the eidolon's perspective: you're minding your own business on whatever outer plane you hail from when all of a sudden you're pulled into another world, deprived of all agency, and worn like a coat by some deranged spellcaster as he runs around using your hands/jaws/tentacles/whatever to mercilessly slaughter his enemies. Whether you remember it or not, you find yourself enthralled and removed from your home for extended periods of time, likely most of your time.

Then your body starts to change.

*shudders* I think a plot could be made of that alone.

[Psyren]

Depending on how you interpret it, the implications of Synthesist summoning can be pretty horrific. Imagine things from the eidolon's perspective: you're minding your own business on whatever outer plane you hail from when all of a sudden you're pulled into another world, deprived of all agency, and worn like a coat by some deranged spellcaster as he runs around using your hands/jaws/tentacles/whatever to mercilessly slaughter his enemies. Whether you remember it or not, you find yourself enthralled and removed from your home for extended periods of time, likely most of your time.

Then your body starts to change.

It's deliberately left vague so that you can have good summoners, who form pacts only with willing servants, and then evil ones who enslave their charges. No mechanical change but it's a great way to give a character some internal conflict, even if he is good.

It's worth noting, however, that there is no entry for an eidolon independent of a summoner. This strongly implies that the very existence of an eidolon is something that relies on the summoner to be. Do they have homes, families or even motivations of their own to begin with? Or do they exist merely because summoners want them to exist? And if so, what does that mean for the ethics of controlling them, if the alternative is nothingness?

[dysprosium]

It's worth noting, however, that there is no entry for an eidolon independent of a summoner. This strongly implies that the very existence of an eidolon is something that relies on the summoner to be. Do they have homes, families or even motivations of their own to begin with? Or do they exist merely because summoners want them to exist? And if so, what does that mean for the ethics of controlling them, if the alternative is nothingness?

There is the unfettered eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/eidolon-unfettered) in Bestiary 3 which in its listing implies that sometimes when the bond is shattered the eidolon goes rogue.

[Keneth]

It's worth noting, however, that there is no entry for an eidolon independent of a summoner.

There's unfettered eidolons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/eidolon-unfettered), the result of post-summoner binding. There is, of course, no entry for eidolons prior to being bound by a summoner though. But the fluff does clearly imply that they are extant outsiders capable of voluntarily forming a bond.

I don't think it's possible to force a bond on an eidolon, though fluff is nothing if not malleable. The truly morally ambiguous part is the treatment after the eidolons are bound to a summoner. The poor things are basically the Yoshis of Pathfinder: You throw them under the chariot whenever it suits your purpose in a fight, knowing that they won't die after being reduced to 0 hp.

Edit: Gunslinged

[Psyren]

Unfettered Eidolons are explicitly the result of an existing bond being broken, though. They still don't explain whether the eidolon had any existence of its own prior to being bonded at all.

[Andvare]

There are even rules on how eidolons (and other companions) react to orders, and how much freedom they have.

On the origins of eidolons (sorry Darwin), there is this:


Eidolon

An eidolon has the same mystery as a cohort, except its origins are far weirder. It might have been linked to another summoner before its bond with you. It might be a natural creature altered by planar energies and banished to a far realm, or a former adventurer lost in a disastrous mission to an unknown plane. If it resembles a more conventional planar monster (such as an archon, a dretch, or an elemental), it might have been accidentally summoned or called by a sloppy spellcaster and could have some familiarity with other people in the world. Though an eidolon's soul is strongly tied to its summoner, it has an existence in another world when it is away, and in that world it might be a bully, champion, or slave. How it reacts to things during its limited time on the Material Plane is influenced by its unknown past and secret life.

An eidolon always has the appearance of a fantastical creature, and attracts as much attention as any unfamiliar animal would. Fortunately for you, you can send the eidolon away to its extraplanar home, allowing you to do business in town and move about normally without drawing unwanted attention. However, if you call the eidolon in an emergency without warning the local authorities, townsfolk might assume it is a marauding monster bent on tearing them limb from limb, requiring hasty explanations and diplomacy to prevent panic.

[3WhiteFox3]

There are even rules on how eidolons (and other companions) react to orders, and how much freedom they have.

On the origins of eidolons (sorry Darwin), there is this:

Where is that fluff from? It seems to contradict the what's found in the SRD.


The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature.

Note the part about not appearing like a specific creature is somewhat overwritten by the Ultimate Magic eidolon models are basically just templates for those who want their eidolons to look and fight like a certain creature.

I've put the relevant in bold, if the physical appearance is up to the summoner, it couldn't be another summoner's eidolon. The only explanation is that the summoner can change the appearance when he completes the bond.

(Another odd part is that summoners and eidolon's share a piece of their soul, so if an eidolon's bond is broken, what happens to that soul piece?)

[Andvare]

Where is that fluff from? It seems to contradict the what's found in the SRD.



Note the part about not appearing like a specific creature is somewhat overwritten by the Ultimate Magic eidolon models are basically just templates for those who want their eidolons to look and fight like a certain creature.

I've put the relevant in bold, if the physical appearance is up to the summoner, it couldn't be another summoner's eidolon. The only explanation is that the summoner can change the appearance when he completes the bond.

(Another odd part is that summoners and eidolon's share a piece of their soul, so if an eidolon's bond is broken, what happens to that soul piece?)

Yeah, pretty much everything about the eidolon is as clear as mud.

It is from Ultimate Campaign, which also contains the aforementioned rules about companion control:


Eidolons: Outside the linear obedience and intelligence
scale of sentient and nonsentient companions are eidolons:
intelligent entities magically bound to you. Whether you
wish to roleplay this relationship as friendly or coerced, the
eidolon is inclined to obey you unless you give a command
only to spite it. An eidolon would obey a cruel summoner’s
order to save a child from a burning building, knowing that
at worst the f ire damage would temporarily banish it, but it wouldn’t stand in a bonf ire just because the summoner said
to. An eidolon is normally a player-controlled companion,
but the GM can have the eidolon refuse extreme orders that
would cause it to suffer needlessly.

Edit: Though my first quote is just fluff, you could still make it look like whatever, it only ever says "might". At least the part with appearance.

[OOPWER]

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I think I can safely say that there are three theories on the subject:
1: Eidolons are sentient outsiders that may or may not have served other summoners before, and thus can have thoughts (including emotions, desires, etc.).
2: Eidolons are non-sentient, being formed, bound to, and controlled by the Summoner's will.
3: Eidolons are semi/fully sentient beings who are a metaphysical part of the Summoner in question.

This seems to have moved into more of the realm of "According to the metaphysics/metabiology of the world, Eidolons are either 1, 2, or 3." That seems to give the question over the DM, whom I can ask.

Thank you all very much for your input.

[Psyren]

They are definitely sentient, and even sapient. I think your question is more of whether they have free will and agency, not sentience.

[3WhiteFox3]

They are definitely sentient, and even sapient. I think your question is more of whether they have free will and agency, not sentience.

It's completely debatable on whether or not eidolons have free will. The only thing that suggests that they might is that they may disobey extreme and/or pointlessly suicidal commands. But that could just be a defense mechanism, but in my opinion it points towards them having some form of agency, they just don't take advantage of it. Summoners have full control over their eidolons otherwise.

So basically, the summoner class is pretty cool but they left a lot of stuff very unclear. At least part of that seems to be intentional, but it does bring up interesting questions.

[Segev]

It seems to me that the answer to this question is best given as, "Whatever works best at your table, for your setting, and for your character concept."

If you want a fully-sentient being with which you make bargains/whom you threaten into submission, that's valid. If you prefer it be something akin to a 3.5e Psion's Astral Construct, a being willed into existence with your magic, that works, too.

[OOPWER]

They are definitely sentient, and even sapient. I think your question is more of whether they have free will and agency, not sentience.


It seems to me that the answer to this question is best given as, "Whatever works best at your table, for your setting, and for your character concept."

If you want a fully-sentient being with which you make bargains/whom you threaten into submission, that's valid. If you prefer it be something akin to a 3.5e Psion's Astral Construct, a being willed into existence with your magic, that works, too.

I think both of you hit the nail on the head. I hadn't thought of the question of an Eidolon having free will/sapience, but I have mentioned that the conversation seems to have moved into where the Eidolon fits in the DM's world as compared to RAW vs RAI.

Thank you all very much for you input.

[Jeff the Green]

So while I guess in a technical sense a synthesist's eidolon still has that 7 intelligence on its sheet, in practice it's just a brainless sock puppet.

This is very nearly irrelevant, but you have now filled me with the perverse desire to play a troll synthesist summoner.

[Bhaakon]

I myself want to play Alexander and his serpentine eidolon/sockpuppet Glycon.

[Jeff the Green]

I myself want to play Alexander and his serpentine eidolon/sockpuppet Glycon.

:smallbiggrin:

I wonder how many people get this (I had to Google to be sure).

[Ravens_cry]

What I love about Summoners is the sheer versatility the concept allows fluff wise. The first thing I thought of when I saw the Synthesist was Bio Booster Armor Guyver, though I am sure many people thought of Iron Man.