Why is Word of Recall 6 and Teleport 5?

[johnbragg]

Word of Recall is a cleric spell, and I know, clerics aren't supposed to have the firepower of wizards.

But given the sometimes plot-breaking effects of teleport ("One does not just...walk into Mordor. One scries until one finds a suitable spot, and then teleports into the caverns under Mount Doom."), you'd think someone would have noticed that "Go Home" is a lot more limited than "Go Anywhere That You Can Scry"

Did "Word of Recall" used to create a talisman that you broke to activate the spell, or was that a houserule?

[Auramis]

Word of Recall is a cleric spell, and I know, clerics aren't supposed to have the firepower of wizards.

But given the sometimes plot-breaking effects of teleport ("One does not just...walk into Mordor. One scries until one finds a suitable spot, and then teleports into the caverns under Mount Doom."), you'd think someone would have noticed that "Go Home" is a lot more limited than "Go Anywhere That You Can Scry"

Did "Word of Recall" used to create a talisman that you broke to activate the spell, or was that a houserule?

Never heard of that rule myself, so I'm going to say that may have been a house rule. Sounds nice and flavorful, at least.

Concerning the title, if you're wondering why Teleport is 5 and WoR is 6, I think that can be chalked up to "arcane magic and teleporting is easier."

[Fable Wright]

Word of Recall is a cleric spell, and I know, clerics aren't supposed to have the firepower of wizards.

But given the sometimes plot-breaking effects of teleport ("One does not just...walk into Mordor. One scries until one finds a suitable spot, and then teleports into the caverns under Mount Doom."), you'd think someone would have noticed that "Go Home" is a lot more limited than "Go Anywhere That You Can Scry"

Did "Word of Recall" used to create a talisman that you broke to activate the spell, or was that a houserule?

The reason is that Word of Recall is able to guarantee that you don't teleport yourself into trouble. With Teleport, you scry a location, roll percentile dice, and then fight X random encounters while you try to actually get your location. Word of Recall, on the other hand, gets you and everyone else to the center of your stronghold or designated safe zone, no ifs, ands, or buts, which is something you could only replicate with Greater Teleport.

Also, a Word of Recall talisman was mentioned in the Player's Handbook 2 in the section on Organizations in the fluff-text, as something an organization provided. So, it's not quite entirely house rules.

[Psyren]

Word of Recall also doesn't require a divine focus - extremely useful if you lose yours and end up in **** creek, since clerics are effectively neutered without one.

[johnbragg]

The reason is that Word of Recall is able to guarantee that you don't teleport yourself into trouble. With Teleport, you scry a location, roll percentile dice,

But if you're going home, you have a 97% chance of success.

If you're a homeless murderhobo, you're going back to your temporary base, with a 94% chance of success. Of course, a smart player is going to "study carefully" to make the base a "save point" and get those 3%.

[/quote]and then fight X random encounters while you try to actually get your location. Word of Recall, on the other hand, gets you and everyone else to the center of your stronghold or designated safe zone, no ifs, ands, or buts, which is something you could only replicate with Greater Teleport.[/quote]

A 100% chance of doing one thing ("Retreat!"), vs a 97% chance of doing that thing, or another, completely different and more flexible thing("Invade the place I've scried upon"), though. (94% if you're using Word of Recall to push the boundaries of your "sanctuary").

I suppose you could cite that Word of Recall has unlimited range, vs 100 miles per caster level for Teleport. But most campaign settings don't span more than 900 miles. And even if it does, and the players and DM remember that, it just means that you need a couple of scry-and-teleports to get home.


Also, a Word of Recall talisman was mentioned in the Player's Handbook 2 in the section on Organizations in the fluff-text, as something an organization provided. So, it's not quite entirely house rules.

So it was a houserule for us, or possibly just a single-use magic item created using the spell, which was obvious enough that someone published it. (Hopefully the PHB 2 had the sense of humor to make the talisman in the shape of a tiny pair of ruby slippers).

[Chronos]

For the breakable talisman, you're probably thinking of Refuge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/refuge.htm). The bearer of the item can either teleport to you, or you can teleport to them, your choice when you cast it.

[Segev]

Note, too, that you keep using "Scry+Teleport." That's TWO spells to accomplish what ONE Word of Recall would achieve. (Assuming you're just trying to use Teleport to mimic WoR.)

Teleport is more versatile. It's lower level because it requires more aid not to be just sort-of copying WoR anyway, and it isn't as reliable. And the more you have to teleport, the higher your chances of screwing up on at least one of them gets.

After 3, you've got a 91% chance of all 3 working right.

Still good, of course. And not as bad as it sounds in some ways, if all you're looking for is "teleport 100 miles closer" for purposes of getting to your destination (and don't care how accurate the intervening landing spots are).

But still a potential issue.

[Psyren]

But if you're going home, you have a 97% chance of success.

If you're a homeless murderhobo, you're going back to your temporary base, with a 94% chance of success. Of course, a smart player is going to "study carefully" to make the base a "save point" and get those 3%.


A 100% chance of doing one thing ("Retreat!"), vs a 97% chance of doing that thing, or another, completely different and more flexible thing("Invade the place I've scried upon"), though. (94% if you're using Word of Recall to push the boundaries of your "sanctuary").


I suppose you could cite that Word of Recall has unlimited range, vs 100 miles per caster level for Teleport. But most campaign settings don't span more than 900 miles. And even if it does, and the players and DM remember that, it just means that you need a couple of scry-and-teleports to get home.



So it was a houserule for us, or possibly just a single-use magic item created using the spell, which was obvious enough that someone published it. (Hopefully the PHB 2 had the sense of humor to make the talisman in the shape of a tiny pair of ruby slippers).

All this is pretty moot since clerics/druids don't get teleport (normally.) It's a weakness of being a divine caster, arcanists are the same-plane taxicabs.

[Vizzerdrix]

Word of Recall also doesn't require a divine focus - extremely useful if you lose yours and end up in **** creek, since clerics are effectively neutered without one.

A first level spell, or a feat fix this.

[Psyren]

A first level spell, or a feat fix this.

I know, but both are non-core and the feat is setting-specific to boot.

[Flickerdart]

Word of Recall is a Cleric spell, and Clerics generally don't get as much teleportation stuff as Wizards. It makes sense that the devs would give them the spell at a higher level than Teleport.

[johnbragg]

For the breakable talisman, you're probably thinking of Refuge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/refuge.htm). The bearer of the item can either teleport to you, or you can teleport to them, your choice when you cast it.

Thanks. This is almost certainly what I was thinking of.

And yes, Scry + Teleport is two spells, vs one for Word of Recall. But Teleport lets you duplicate Word of Recall with a small chance of failure, plus do other stuff.

Teleportation spells are one of the biggest culprits in the "high level casters are too powerful" line of thinking. I was looking at Word of Recall as a de-buffed Teleport, especially combined with a talisman. Make it an arcane spell, boost the casting time up to something like a day, and you have your escape route for emergencies, without defining "emergency" as "once a day."

To Flickerdart, and others: Yes, teleport is seen as more a "Wizard/Arcane thing" than a "Cleric/divine thing", but more commonly TSR/WOTC would handle it by a higher spell level, OR a nerfed version for the other class, rather than a higher spell level, nerfed version.

Or maybe I'm wrong and if I actually did the math on Fireball and Flame STrike, I could squint and see Flame STrike as a higher-level, nerfed version of Fireball.

[Psyren]

To Flickerdart, and others: Yes, teleport is seen as more a "Wizard/Arcane thing" than a "Cleric/divine thing", but more commonly TSR/WOTC would handle it by a higher spell level, OR a nerfed version for the other class, rather than a higher spell level, nerfed version.

What observations are you basing this "more commonly" trend on?

[johnbragg]

What observations are you basing this "more commonly" trend on?

Top of my head, Hold Person Cleric 2/Wizard 3.

As to "the cleric/wizard gets the nerfed version", I can't think of one off the bat. And as usual, it's also possible that I'm generalizing from houserules from the height of the 2E "customize your cleric!" era, and we picked-and-chose between upping the spell level and nerfing the spell.

Looking at d20SRD.org, Wizard spells level 1-4. I may have missed some that I didn't realize that Clerics get nowadays. On the other hand, I was surprised at the number I checked, expecting a different spell level and not finding it.

Locate Object, Wiz 2/Cleric 3.
Continual Flame, Wiz 2/ Cleric 3
Tongues, Wizard 3/Cleric 4
Gentle Repose Cleric 2/Wizard 3
Halt Undead Wizard 3/Cleric No (Included because I figured Cleric 1 or 2)
Remove Curse Cleric 3/Wizard 4
Scrying Wizard 4/Cleric 5/Druid 4/Bard 3
Wall of Fire Wizard 4/Druid 5/Fire 4
Animate Dead Cleric 3/Wizard 4
Bestow Curse Cleric 3/Wizard 4
Contagion Cleric 3/Druid 3/Wizard 4
Stone Shape Cleric 3/Wizard 4

And some strange choices:
Lesser Geas Bard 3/Wizard 4/Cleric No
Geas/Quest Wiz 6, Bard 6, Cleric 6

Wind Wall Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Air 2/Rgr 2, but that's not the same thing at all.
Getting a domain spell a level early is pretty common.

SToneskin Wizard 4/Druid 5/Earth 6--closer than Wind Wall. "Earth"-y divine casters get the spell, at a higher level, and non-"earth"y types don't get it at all.

[Psyren]

None of those are exclusively (or even thematically) arcane/divine effects, though. Holding monsters in place, lighting things up, talking to various beings, afflicting others and necromancy are effects you'd expect both casters to pull off; teleportation however is thematically arcane, just like raising the dead is thematically divine. Clerics and Druids are really lucky to get a form of the former at all.

[Thanatosia]

Between having higher HD, better saves, better BAB, Domain Powers, Turn Undead (and the associated divine metamagic and domain feats it can also power), being able to cast in armor, and access to healing& recovery magic that Arcane is typically unable to do well.... why on earth should cleric spells be equal to wizard spells on a level by level basis?

I strongly feel Cleric spells are probably too strong as is, and should probably be weaker compared to arcane magic of equal level already... so yeah, I have no trouble at all seeing why Word of Recall should be a higher level then Teleport. What I have a harder time seeing is why more spells don't appear higher level on the cleric list then they do for a wizard.

[johnbragg]

None of those are exclusively (or even thematically) arcane/divine effects, though. Holding monsters in place, lighting things up, talking to various beings, afflicting others and necromancy are effects you'd expect both casters to pull off; teleportation however is thematically arcane, just like raising the dead is thematically divine. Clerics and Druids are really lucky to get a form of the former at all.

I suppose my point is: Would Word of Recall work as a 4th level Wizard/Sorcerer spell? Or a 5th level spell if you ban "Teleport" (and Greater Teleport, etc)?


I strongly feel Cleric spells are probably too strong as is, and should probably be weaker compared to arcane magic of equal level already... so yeah, I have no trouble at all seeing why Word of Recall should be a higher level then Teleport. What I have a harder time seeing is why more spells don't appear higher level on the cleric list then they do for a wizard.

Oh that's entirely fair. I went through the list, and a good number of Wizard spells I expected to put on the list were at the same level for arcane and divine casters. But as the system is set up, a lot of spells are the same level for arcane and divine.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I suppose my point is: Would Word of Recall work as a 4th level Wizard/Sorcerer spell? Or a 5th level spell if you ban "Teleport" (and Greater Teleport, etc)?

I wouldn't allow it. Using refuge as a reference, I would want to increase the level of the spell, but wizards and sorcerers have greater teleport at level 7 so that wouldn't make sense. I would definitely not let them get the spell at a lower level.

[Psyren]

I suppose my point is: Would Word of Recall work as a 4th level Wizard/Sorcerer spell?

No - "travel from anywhere in the plane with pinpoint accuracy" is too powerful for 4th-level, even if the only destination is home. Compare it to Dimension Door and this thing would be a way stronger means of escape.

EDIT: Let's look thematically at why teleportation isn't really a divine magic thing. What's the role of a cleric?

The answer is evangelism - they're supposed to wander the land, recruiting for the cause. Whether they do this through succor or oppression (or a mix of both) is largely up to the deity in question, but the mandate is to travel the hard way so you don't overlook anyone who might be in need of your ministrations. Being able to hop around everywhere on the plane runs counter to that theme. (But if you ever find yourself needing to get somewhere in a hurry and you're on church business, Planar Ally offers you a way to get some mystic backup.)

Druids meanwhile are supposed to protect the land. Note their signature long-distance teleport, Tree Stride - it can take you quite a distance, but always from one tree to another. And you can go farther by selecting certain trees - namely, those trees that tend to be in the heart of a deep wood. So even though their magic lets jump around the continent so to speak, it keeps leading them to woods so they can investigate in case the poor deer need help with the local lumberjacks or whatever. Better yet, this incentives druids to make the forest bigger, because more woods increases the number of viable destinations for their teleporting.

[johnbragg]

No - "travel from anywhere in the plane with pinpoint accuracy" is too powerful for 4th-level, even if the only destination is home. Compare it to Dimension Door and this thing would be a way stronger means of escape.

It does leave Dimension Door in the dust. DD 4, Word of Recall 5, Teleport (Almost Anywhere) 6, REfuge 7, Teleport (Greater) 8?


EDIT: Let's look thematically at why teleportation isn't really a divine magic thing. What's the role of a cleric?

You know, I've never had a satisfactory answer to that. Most of my homebrews see arcane casters gobble up chunks of the divine spell list, with the rest left to rituals (small-r, not necessarily the 4E kind) that require the entire congregation to participate and believe. (Mechanically, in these worlds, when 100,000 chant the name of the football team, add all sorts of bonuses to their rolls for the next play.)

REalistically, the priest is hanging around town. He's a cross between the town doctor and, well, the town priest. It's not an adventuring caste any more than "blacksmith" or, er, alchemist.


The answer is evangelism - they're supposed to wander the land, recruiting for the cause. Whether they do this through succor or oppression (or a mix of both) is largely up to the deity in question, but the mandate is to travel the hard way so you don't overlook anyone who might be in need of your ministrations. Being able to hop around everywhere on the plane runs counter to that theme. (But if you ever find yourself needing to get somewhere in a hurry and you're on church business, Planar Ally offers you a way to get some mystic backup.)

This is the best explanation I've seen. (But it still leaves them as a prestige class stacked onto one of the three REAL base classes, or on top of Expert or Aristocrat or Commoner. :smallbiggrin:)

[NeoPhoenix0]

It does leave Dimension Door in the dust. DD 4, Word of Recall 5, Teleport (Almost Anywhere) 6, REfuge 7, Teleport (Greater) 8?

Is this what you're thinking about for the wizard list? For the wizard refuge should be higher than greater teleport.

The thing here is that the different type of teleport spells serve different purposes. Different lists also serve different purposes. The wizard list represents power, while refuge is a support spell, design to go someplace safe or call an ally. It is a powerful support spell but it is support not raw power. So it should be a higher level.

Edit: Greater teleport on the other hand doesn't directly do support. It is just a spell that moves people. It is the raw power of teleportation and thus better suited to be on the wizard spell list.

[Chronos]

The divine teleportation spell I really like, is there's a paladin spell that, when cast, will instantly transport you to somewhere, anywhere on the same plane, where there's a worthy evil opponent to fight. You don't get to choose where, you just know that wherever it is, that's a good place for you to go.