Counterspelling

[Max Caysey]

Hi...

It says under the Spellcraft skill that to identify a spell one must succed a check of a DC 15+spell level. And to counterspell one must identify a spell being cast.

To identify a spell one must: (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.)

If someone cast a still, silent, quicken, material eschewed spell, can that then be counterspelled?

And if you cant see a spell comming how can you use Dispel Magic to counter? Because a ready action wont be triggered by sometone casting still, silent, quickened and so forth...


Please comment! :smallbiggrin:

[Deca4531]

seems fairly simple, you cant. if you dont know your about to be shot you cant dodge out of the way of it. really all a caster would have to do is set down a tower shield and look over the top of it and whisper the spell. he would have cover hiding his moments and you couldn't hear him, yet he can still see you and so cast at you.

[Psyren]

Battlemagic Perception, HoB.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The standard, no-frills way to counterspell is to ready for someone to cast a spell, then if you identify the spell, you counter it.

Like you said, if you can't perceive the verbal or somatic components, normally, you can't identify the spell. Therefore you can't counterspell it with that spell.

With regards to dispel magic, if you had some way of knowing that the caster was casting his stilled, silent, eschewed spell you would be able to use dispel magic to attempt to counterspell it without identifying it. But as you say, if you don't know when or whether the caster will cast his stilled, silent, eschewed spell, the action goes off, and your readied action is unable to interrupt.

One key exception to all of this, as was lurk'd by Psyren, is the spell Battlemagic Perception from Heroes of Battle. It allows you to perceive spells cast within 100' of you based on line of effect only. This is especially important in a game with both psionics and magic/psionics transparency, as psions can hide what they're doing with a soon-trivial concentration check.

[Max Caysey]

This seems fairly OP to be honest. How would people rule when Epic COunterspell is involved?
http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/epic-counterspell--904/

[Psyren]

This seems fairly OP to be honest.

It's not - even if you fail to stop their spell from going off, you still have an immediate action of your own. For example, if someone threw a still silent quickened material-less fireball at your sorcerer, he could use Wings of Cover to block it even though he didn't get a chance to counterspell it.



How would people rule when Epic COunterspell is involved?
http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-faerun--22/epic-counterspell--904/

Since you don't have to ready an action, I would say you can use a general counter like dispel magic (but not a specific one, because you didn't get to identify the spell.)

[Melcar]

After trying to find the answers in PHB, I have come to believe it works like this.

If you are unable to identify a spell being cast, you can’t counter the spell with its natural counterpart or opposed spell. End of story.

If you wanted to counter it with dispel magic you would have known exactly when the enemy was casting the spell. This is not possible at normal circumstances, because to use dispel as counterspell you would have to cast it not after the spell had been cast, but during, and this is not possible to know, under normal circumstances. The above mentioned spell is (as far as I have seen and been able to find) the only way of knowing that still and silent spells are being cast. And therefor, without it, countering spells are not possible!

I might be wrong ofc, but my findings say that this is how it works. All of a sudden Still and Silent have become very powerful feats!

[mregecko]

After trying to find the answers in PHB, I have come to believe it works like this.

If you are unable to identify a spell being cast, you can’t counter the spell with its natural counterpart or opposed spell. End of story.

If you wanted to counter it with dispel magic you would have known exactly when the enemy was casting the spell. This is not possible at normal circumstances, because to use dispel as counterspell you would have to cast it not after the spell had been cast, but during, and this is not possible to know, under normal circumstances. The above mentioned spell is (as far as I have seen and been able to find) the only way of knowing that still and silent spells are being cast. And therefor, without it, countering spells are not possible!

I might be wrong ofc, but my findings say that this is how it works. All of a sudden Still and Silent have become very powerful feats!

Honestly, counterspelling is very rarely a good use of actions. It's essentially using a readied action (i.e. you have to be going before the other spellcaster), for a break-even on the action economy.

You're usually better served, if you're already going first, by casting a game-winning spell, instead of using your action to (possibly) negate their action.

[Psyren]

There's also Ring of Counterspells and Spellblades. You have to know what spell to put in them in advance, but you can save those for the ones that are harder to deal with and rely on other protections (SR, Energy Resistance etc.) for the other stuff.

And psions are already still/silent and can't be countered at all, you don't hear them going on about it :smalltongue:

[Max Caysey]

I just thought it was very nice, and something I didn't know before!

[FullStop]

...And psions are already still/silent and can't be countered at all, you don't hear them going on about it :smalltongue:

Of course you don't hear them going on about it, they're silent

[Psyren]

Of course you don't hear them going on about it, they're silent

Thank you, that was the joke :smallwink:

[lsfreak]

Honestly, counterspelling is very rarely a good use of actions. It's essentially using a readied action (i.e. you have to be going before the other spellcaster), for a break-even on the action economy.

I'm honestly not aware of any counterspelling build that doesn't revolve around grabbing Divine Defiance from FC2. Requires Divine CL3 to take (one-level dip in cleric + Precocious Apprentice, FAQ ruled this doesn't work because reasons :smallconfused:), but lets you burn a TU attempt as an immediate action to counterspell. And it even may even work against SLAs!

The only exception might be a nocturamancer (shadowcaster/wizard) who get a mystery that counterspells as an immediate action, and a class ability that lets you counterspell as an immediate action.

...actually using Synchronicity abuse to get multiple readied actions a round on a cerebremancer might work too, and might be one of those things that's ridiculously broken except when used to bring something that's rather underpowered up to par.

[Psyren]

Cerebremancer is one of the few theurges I consider worthwhile even without early entry or a way to contiinue it past ECL 16.

[Karoht]

Ring of Spell Battle (MIC) FTW!
Well, okay, not so much. I'm pretty sure the same limitations apply.

Similar question.
I'm invisible and casting, can you counterspell? You might be able to hear me, but you definitely can't see me.


@Usefulness of Counterspelling
Preventing harm is sometimes as important as dealing it.
On my Bard, when I run out of options, I often stay within buffing range of the group, try to remain hidden if possible, and hold my action with a Dispel Magic, and wait for a caster to do something. Not optimal sure, but I'm helping keep my party from harm, while the damage dealers or other spell casters do something about it.

[Max Caysey]

I'm honestly not aware of any counterspelling build that doesn't revolve around grabbing Divine Defiance from FC2. Requires Divine CL3 to take (one-level dip in cleric + Precocious Apprentice, FAQ ruled this doesn't work because reasons :smallconfused:), but lets you burn a TU attempt as an immediate action to counterspell. And it even may even work against SLAs!

The only exception might be a nocturamancer (shadowcaster/wizard) who get a mystery that counterspells as an immediate action, and a class ability that lets you counterspell as an immediate action.

...actually using Synchronicity abuse to get multiple readied actions a round on a cerebremancer might work too, and might be one of those things that's ridiculously broken except when used to bring something that's rather underpowered up to par.

Im not quite sure... You would not know you were the taget of a spell until it actually hits you... So even if Divine Defiance is an immediate action you would then still activated it after the spell had been cast. So still too late. To counter you have to counter during the casting, and that is almost impossible to do when the spells are still and silent, and especialy if its quicened too. Even as soon as you see the spell its too late, because then the spell have already been cast.

[Psyren]

Im not quite sure... You would not know you were the taget of a spell until it actually hits you... So even if Divine Defiance is an immediate action you would then still activated it after the spell had been cast. So still too late.

That's not how D&D works - immediate actions can be activated any time. They're like interrupts in Magic. You can respond to spells with them; otherwise, things like Wings of Cover, Evade Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/evadeBurst.htm) or Intellect Fortress (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/intellectFortress.htm) wouldn't function.


To counter you have to counter during the casting, and that is almost impossible to do when the spells are still and silent, and especialy if its quicened too. Even as soon as you see the spell its too late, because then the spell have already been cast.

This is easily justified actually; a spell's targets and other parameters are not chosen until after it is cast, so just say the Inquisition domain or Battlemagic Perception etc. let you pick up on that. And of course spells can fail at that point, such as trying to dominate an illusion, so the spell can be stopped.

[DruidAlanon]

If I were the DM I would let the opposed mage to make the spellcraft check (if he's really paying attention to the caster). A skilled practitioner of magic may feel the vibes or any unnatural phenomenon may occur during a spell even if it is silent, quicken, etc.

In any case, DC is really high.

[lsfreak]

What Psyren said, though also it doesn't matter if you are the target of the spell or not, you don't have to be to counterspell.

Also Psyren, I was referring specifically to counterspelling being subpar, not cerebremancer. Using cerebremancer to fuel "immediate-action" counterspelling through Synchronicity abuse is, at first impression, not horrifically broken, provided the abuse part of Synchronicity isn't being used for anything but counterspelling.

[Max Caysey]

That's not how D&D works - immediate actions can be activated any time. They're like interrupts in Magic. You can respond to spells with them; otherwise, things like Wings of Cover, Evade Burst (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/evadeBurst.htm) or Intellect Fortress (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/intellectFortress.htm) wouldn't function.


As a player you would not be able to tell when you wished to interrupt anything, because the caster casting still and silent, would only tell the DM what he was doing. So the targte of lets say a hold person would not knwo that any spell was cast untill that target needed to take a saving throw. Its not possible to interrupt that. You would just say: "take a will save" and then after the spell was resolved was one could identify it.

Intellect Fortress works because it works on the spell after the spell is cast. To counter you have to couter during the casting not after. When the fireball have been sent on its way you cant counter it then. Only during the casting!

Wings of Cover works when you know you are the target of a ranged spell. You dont know whether or not you are a target of a spell or even if any spells are being cast when these spells are cast still and silent.

Therefor... I simply dont see how, when you dont know when or if your enemy is casting anything, you could counter anything... except for Battlemagic Perception. SO on that note... Immediate actions do not help if you cant envoke them at the correct time.

[Fax Celestis]

To counter you have to couter during the casting not after. When the fireball have been sent on its way you cant counter it then. Only during the casting!

According to...what, exactly?

[Melcar]

If I were the DM I would let the opposed mage to make the spellcraft check (if he's really paying attention to the caster). A skilled practitioner of magic may feel the vibes or any unnatural phenomenon may occur during a spell even if it is silent, quicken, etc.

In any case, DC is really high.

Thats not the case RAW! So the DC would have to be extremely high!

[Psyren]

As a player you would not be able to tell when you wished to interrupt anything, because the caster casting still and silent, would only tell the DM what he was doing.

"In response, I use an immediate action to counterspell." Done.

The rules even specify that if you're using dispel magic to counter, you don't need to identify whatever is coming out you, so not knowing what it was is irrelevant.



Intellect Fortress works because it works on the spell after the spell is cast.

Except according to your logic, it's too late because the target was hit. Same with Wings of Cover and Evade Burst. Clearly the rules don't back up your reading - immediate actions can be used before the spell gets you. Justify it however you want - the energies cancelling themselves out in midair even - but by RAW it does work.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It appears the forum ate my post, so I'll try again...

Nitpick: Wings of Cover doesn't auto-block area effects.

Also, effects like it can interrupt the effects of a spell after they've been cast, so they don't necessarily have to interrupt the actual casting of the spell to be effective. On the other hand, if you're counterspelling something, you have to interrupt the caster attempting to cast the spell. If he's already cast the spell, and you're merely reacting to the spell effects, it's too late.

Other spells and abilities exist outside of BMP. Spellcaster's Bane (CM) is like BMP, but lower duration, swift action activation, and functions off line of sight. Dispel handbook says the two spells complement each other... but I'd say that's only true if you're using persistent spell shenanigans or you're really specialized in detecting and dispelling effects.

Duelward allows you to dispel as an immediate action as well.

Hypothetically you could spot someone concentrating, but I'm not sure the rules say what sort of checks this situation would call for.

[Melcar]

"In response, I use an immediate action to counterspell." Done.

The rules even specify that if you're using dispel magic to counter, you don't need to identify whatever is coming out you, so not knowing what it was is irrelevant.



Except according to your logic, it's too late because the target was hit. Same with Wings of Cover and Evade Burst. Clearly the rules don't back up your reading - immediate actions can be used before the spell gets you. Justify it however you want - the energies cancelling themselves out in midair even - but by RAW it does work.

This is taken from d20srd.org

I have highlighted something interesting!


Counterspells

It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

How Counterspells Work

To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)

If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

Counterspelling Metamagic Spells

Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered
Specific Exceptions

Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects.

Dispel Magic as a Counterspell

You can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell.

So no matter what kind of action you take, you still have to take it during the casting to counter. Everything else is just a reaction to the spell which ofc can be done by immediate actions. But the counterspell can only happen during the casting. And since this is almost impossible due to the fact that the caster of the still, silent, material aschewed, quickened spell have his hands down his pocket while casting, without saying a word. It not possible to know when he is casting it.

[Psyren]

From your own quote:


Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered

So Still/Silent doesn't stop you from being countered by RAW. Add in a means to not need the spellcraft check (Dispel Magic) or to ready the action (Divine Defiance etc.) and you're good to go.

[Fax Celestis]

FAQ support:

Is it possible to counterspell a spell that has no spell component?

For normal counterspelling, the Spellcraft check requires identification of verbal or somatic components. If those are missing, you cannot pass the Spellcraft check, so you cannot counter that spell. However, if you are using dispel magic to counter the spell, identifying the spell is not required and the Spellcraft check is skipped, so you can counter spells with no components.


Can I counterspell a quickened spell? What if I use the Reactive Counterspell feat (PG 42)?

Yes. A quickened spell isn’t any more difficult to identify than a normal spell, despite its reduced casting time. As long as you’ve readied an action to counterspell (or you have the Reactive Counterspell feat, which allows you to counterspell without having readied an action), you can counterspell a quickened spell as normal.


Can a spell cast with a swift action be counterspelled?

Yes, you can counter a spell cast with a swift action. The rules for readying an action (Rules Compendium 110) allow you to react to another character casting a spell. There are no restrictions on this based on the type of action used to cast the spell.

[Melcar]

From your own quote:



So Still/Silent doesn't stop you from being countered by RAW. Add in a means to not need the spellcraft check (Dispel Magic) or to ready the action (Divine Defiance etc.) and you're good to go.

Personally I would never tell you when or if I cast any spell... and so I reserve my right to disagree. Because as I have pointet out. You simply dont know when to cast the dispel magic as a counterspell action! Unless Battlemagic Perception, have been cast, I have yet to see anything that overrules the:


"...disrupt the casting..."

I dont acknowledge FAQ. What I have been told here on this forum, its unreliable and usually contradicting in many ways. And often badly written.

I in no way say that you cant stop or block the effect of any spell, but counterspelling... no.

[Fax Celestis]

Feel free to continue playing your way, then. Just don't know why you are bothering to ask if you're not going to consider changing your mind.

[Psyren]

I dont acknowledge FAQ.

Which is one of the reasons I switched to PF, 3.5 players ask the devs for clarification and then reject it once given :smalltongue:

Regardless, by RAW, Still/Silent cannot affect counterspelling. By RAI, FAQ says they don't either. You're free to houserule of course.

[TuggyNE]

I dont acknowledge FAQ. What I have been told here on this forum, its unreliable and usually contradicting in many ways. And often badly written.

I in no way say that you cant stop or block the effect of any spell, but counterspelling... no.

The FAQ is not a good source of independent verification. But often it does have sensible reasoning, and this certainly seems to be one of those cases; I don't see anything wrong with their logic, so it should be accepted on the strength of that, rather than simply kneejerking "FAQ is not RAW!" and thereby ignoring any and all entries in it.

[Melcar]

Feel free to continue playing your way, then. Just don't know why you are bothering to ask if you're not going to consider changing your mind.

First of all I never started the question in the first place; secondly I simple don’t interpret the rules the same way. And that’s fine. Just like I would never say that any of you would have to follow my interpretation or ruling. In this matter I simply just disagree. To me it’s simple, if you don’t know when, or if, any spell is coming, the casting is silent and still, you would only see the spell(effect) after the spell was finished casted, and then it would be too late to counter. I really can’t say it clearer than that. One could argue that a forming sphere of fire would form when casting fireball, but that’s no where part of any rules about counterspelling. Counterspelling is casting the right spells at the right time. Without knowing what the right spell is, or via dispel, when the tight time is, counterspelling is not possible.

And believe me, I have changed my mind after a discussion a lot of times, but this one, I have yet to see the definitive evidence. Sorry... I mean no offence in the matter which I hope you all know. And hopefully you can appreciate the fact that we are not all alike nor think or interpret the rules the same way. Most wars in the real world if due to the fact that people differ on rules of life, written in old tomes from a time lost.

[Melcar]

Which is one of the reasons I switched to PF, 3.5 players ask the devs for clarification and then reject it once given :smalltongue:

Regardless, by RAW, Still/Silent cannot affect counterspelling. By RAI, FAQ says they don't either. You're free to houserule of course.

Thats not correct at all. It says that you have to identify the spell, and under spellcraft to identify a spell one would have to be able to see or hear the spell verbal or somatic component of the spell. If these are not present then you cant counter with an opposing spell. Now you could as we have talked about many times use dispel magic, but this would have to be cast at the right time; namely during casting, not after, and I dont see how this i possible. Yes meta-magic dont effect counterspelling except fo the fact that it does for "normal" counterspelling so by RAW it does matter. Not metamagic for the sake of metamagic, but the still and silent meta-magic feats has an effect on counterspelling. So its quite contradicting!

Oh yeah and sorr for the double post. I'm not real good at the tools yet! :smallredface:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Which is one of the reasons I switched to PF, 3.5 players ask the devs for clarification and then reject it once given :smalltongue:PF players ask for clarification and get Sean K Reynolds (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m8j3?Ultimate-Magic-Monks-Vow-of-Poverty)... I'll take 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

Aaaanyway, if you take FAQ to be RAW (I take it to be RAI at best), then sure. You can use dispel magic to counter a spell after it's been cast. But there is no actual RAW support for that claim.

The line about metamagic not affecting a counterspell doesn't have anything to do with the issue. It just means you can counter an empowered fireball with a fireball. Still and Silent don't directly affect counterspelling; they prevent you from identifying the spell, and in most cases from knowing the spell is being cast.

If I ready an action to shoot an arrow at someone who casts a spell (the warrior counterspell), and I have no way of knowing whether/when the mage casts the spell, I don't get to shoot before the spell goes off. And if the spell has already happened, I don't get to force a concentration check. Similarly, if I don't know someone is casting a spell, I can't counterspell it after the fact.

I could ready an action to shoot someone, or counterspell someone with dispel magic, who looks like they're casting a spell. Of course, that's not going to be 100% reliable.

[Melcar]

PF players ask for clarification and get Sean K Reynolds (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m8j3?Ultimate-Magic-Monks-Vow-of-Poverty)... I'll take 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

Aaaanyway, if you take FAQ to be RAW (I take it to be RAI at best), then sure. You can use dispel magic to counter a spell after it's been cast. But there is no actual RAW support for that claim.

The line about metamagic not affecting a counterspell doesn't have anything to do with the issue. It just means you can counter an empowered fireball with a fireball. Still and Silent don't directly affect counterspelling; they prevent you from identifying the spell, and in most cases from knowing the spell is being cast.

If I ready an action to shoot an arrow at someone who casts a spell (the warrior counterspell), and I have no way of knowing whether/when the mage casts the spell, I don't get to shoot before the spell goes off. And if the spell has already happened, I don't get to force a concentration check. Similarly, if I don't know someone is casting a spell, I can't counterspell it after the fact.

I could ready an action to shoot someone, or counterspell someone with dispel magic, who looks like they're casting a spell. Of course, that's not going to be 100% reliable.

Thank you! That is excactly my point!!

[Lafaellar]

Imho counterspelling is only useful in 3 circumstances:

1. You have the "rapid counterspell" feat which allows you to counterspell even without a ready action and you have no other possible way of negating that spell and the spell's effect will have a major impact on the battle so you really have to give counterspell a try (most likely with the use of dispel magic).

A lot of what-ifs and taking 3 feats for that seems a huge waste.
It can be fun if you have the archmage counterspell thing though.

2. You want to stop somebody from casting spells without harming him.
Even then you would have other possibilities for this, but if you don't you need to give it a try.

Actually both of these situations require you to be ill prepared, which you should not be as a mage.


The most obvious solution for countering a spell is a ready action that says "throw massive damage spell in casters face when he tries to cast a spell"
It's almost impossible to win a concentration check against 1d6 points of damage per caster level.

So the 3rd situation is:

You don't have any spell prepared that could stop the wizard from casting this spell. Perhaps because he is protected against all the damage types you can deal or has a globe of invul up and you don't have spells of a higher level to damage him.

[Snowbluff]

PF players ask for clarification and get Sean K Reynolds (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m8j3?Ultimate-Magic-Monks-Vow-of-Poverty)... I'll take 3.5 :smallbiggrin:
I don't think people were to happy with the changes to flurry, either.

This thread is full of things I don't like. I am not fond of playing in PF, and I dislike DMing Psionics because of this exact thing.:smalltongue:

As for dispelling, it's always been a big part of my characters. I have no idea how you're supposed to counter something that's been completely MMed down to a mild shiver, since your character would have no idea what's going on. Having BMP really helps.

[Chronos]

Quoth lsfreak:

Requires Divine CL3 to take (one-level dip in cleric + Precocious Apprentice, FAQ ruled this doesn't work because reasons )
Yes, because lots of reasons. I'm not even sure why you thought that a feat that gives you a second-level arcane spell would increase your divine caster level.

However, there's no reason that Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't work, and that's a good idea when you're dipping in a caster class anyway.

[lsfreak]

Yes, because lots of reasons. I'm not even sure why you thought that a feat that gives you a second-level arcane spell would increase your divine caster level.

However, there's no reason that Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't work, and that's a good idea when you're dipping in a caster class anyway.

Woops :smallredface: It is Practiced Spellcaster they said wouldn't work, though, despite being completely, 100% unambiguous that it does work.

[Psyren]

PF players ask for clarification and get Sean K Reynolds (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m8j3?Ultimate-Magic-Monks-Vow-of-Poverty)... I'll take 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

1) I have no problem with his reasoning in that thread.
2) 3.5 has... nothing. Or it has devs that say "yeah it sucks, sorry we weren't allowed to playtest it, I hate this company but can't really say so, here's some much better houserules you can try that are so much better than the liquid feces that made it into our book. Too bad our process for printing errata for these issues is so ridiculously byzantine that you'll just have to keep this thread bookmarked forever and point people to it, and also hope that we won't delete it on a whim when we reorganize our forums for the next One True D&D that we want everyone to be playing."



Aaaanyway, if you take FAQ to be RAW (I take it to be RAI at best), then sure. You can use dispel magic to counter a spell after it's been cast. But there is no actual RAW support for that claim.



The line about metamagic not affecting a counterspell doesn't have anything to do with the issue. It just means you can counter an empowered fireball with a fireball. Still and Silent don't directly affect counterspelling; they prevent you from identifying the spell, and in most cases from knowing the spell is being cast.

By RAW, you don't need to identify a spell to counter it with dispel magic. So that reasoning is out. Furthermore by RAW, Divine Defiance etc. say you don't have to ready an action to counter. Therefore by RAW, the metamagic has no further effect on the spell being countered, because that was their only contribution.

If RAW matters so much more to you than RAI, you should try following it then, no?

[Chronos]

So we know it's possible to counterspell a metamagicked spell, but that still doesn't tell us how to do it. Do you just have to guess at when your enemy is casting?

[Psyren]

So we know it's possible to counterspell a metamagicked spell, but that still doesn't tell us how to do it. Do you just have to guess at when your enemy is casting?

When the DM tells you obviously. "In response, I Divine Defiance as an immediate action."

[Melcar]

Its true that meta-magic feats does not stop one being able to counter. Not knowing when to counter is the problem. And you cant know when to counter when you cant se when or if your target is casting. And Still and silents makes it impossible to se or hear whether or not anyone is casting anything. So whether or not you can use an immediate action to counter doesn't matter, because you dont know when to initiate the immediate action.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

1) I have no problem with his reasoning in that thread.... Wow... well, how about we just drop that, then.

2) 3.5 has... nothing. *snip*Well, I certainly won't contest that WotC's support is lacking, but I personally find some of PF's "support" to be worse than nothing.
By RAW, you don't need to identify a spell to counter it with dispel magic. So that reasoning is out.You need to know that the ready trigger is occurring to execute a readied action. So, strawman's reasoning is out.
Furthermore by RAW, Divine Defiance etc. say you don't have to ready an action to counter.You have to know something is happening in order to interrupt it.
Therefore by RAW, the metamagic has no further effect on the spell being countered, because that was their only contribution.Eliminating components has no direct effect on counterspelling. It simply hides information that one normally uses to counterspell at the correct time. If you counterspell too late, then Dispel Magic won't save you.
If RAW matters so much more to you than RAI, you should try following it then, no?Smug much?

[Karoht]

I'm more familiar with Pathfinder, so I asked a DM who was more familiar with 3.5
He said he vaguely remembered that Silent and Still increase the Spellcraft check DC by 5 each. I asked him for a source, he couldn't remember but said it might be in DMG?
Also, Invisible Spell metamagic would make the spell effect invisible. Lets throw that monkey wrench right into the works.

[Melcar]

I'm more familiar with Pathfinder, so I asked a DM who was more familiar with 3.5
He said he vaguely remembered that Silent and Still increase the Spellcraft check DC by 5 each. I asked him for a source, he couldn't remember but said it might be in DMG?
Also, Invisible Spell metamagic would make the spell effect invisible. Lets throw that monkey wrench right into the works.

Its from Tome and Blood. It says that still and silent ad a +2 DC to spellcraft, but this is actually wrong: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050524a

I don't know how T&B could say this, when Spellcraft so clearly states that you have to see the verbal or somatic component to identify, but even WoTC get it wrong sometimes... or should I say often!

[Chronos]

No, the rule makes sense. You can't identify a spell that has no components, but you can identify a spell that has fewer components than normal. So, for instance, you could still identify a Still Fireball, as long as you could hear the verbal component, but it'd be at a -2 penalty.

[Melcar]

No, the rule makes sense. You can't identify a spell that has no components, but you can identify a spell that has fewer components than normal. So, for instance, you could still identify a Still Fireball, as long as you could hear the verbal component, but it'd be at a -2 penalty.

Ahh... but then if none of the above were present the DC would not go up by 4, it would then just be impossible to identify... right?