Unzipping a Gestalt into an Epic

[unseenmage]

So I got involved in a game where all the creatures in their world were Gestalt.
The DM and I agreed that this was kinda dumb as adjudicating even NPC classes onto unintelligent, animal intelligence, and player created creatures gets very sticky very quickly.

Now my level 11 Gestalt Artificer 11/Cleric of Gond 5/Techsmith 6 character needs to be rebuilt with all the same class levels only as a multiclassed epc character instead.

In short, I am a little lost, please help me. Not that I'm asking the Playground to do the work for me, just general advice and discussion of this unique situation to help inspire me to complete this daunting task will be fine.

Okay, I made him a Myth Weavers character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=667440).
There are a couple odd extra feats on there from this game using the Conan d20 rules on top of 3.5. Still sorting it all out.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's going to be a mess. You-- all of the PCs-- are going to be crippled. Artificer 11/Cleric 11 is going to be about fifty miles behind, say, a Cleric 22.

The best way to play it would probably be to rebuild your characters from the ground up as single-class level 11 dudes, and just do you best to capture the original feeling. (So in your case, a crafting-focused Cleric, probably with the Magic domain.) Or maybe make up some custom dual-progression PrCs, so you could be an Artificer 3/Cleric 3/ArtiCleric 5.

[unseenmage]

It's going to be a mess. You-- all of the PCs-- are going to be crippled. Artificer 11/Cleric 11 is going to be about fifty miles behind, say, a Cleric 22.

The best way to play it would probably be to rebuild your characters from the ground up as single-class level 11 dudes, and just do you best to capture the original feeling. (So in your case, a crafting-focused Cleric, probably with the Magic domain.) Or maybe make up some custom dual-progression PrCs, so you could be an Artificer 3/Cleric 3/ArtiCleric 5.

I'm the only PC in this case. And the DM runs his games more "narrative based". I am aware that a straight class makes for a more powerful character. But for this game that's a non-issue.
As an Artificer I have access to all the Item Crafting resources from all the books and editions that are d20 and I've been combining them for fun.

For an example of the power level of play I'm already at see the Dancing Broomstaff link in my sig.

Yeah so my power level isn't an issue, all those extra feats and figuring out if a 22 level character who isn't epic in his spellcasting class can tinker with epic spells are my issue. That and it's a lot of work. :smallsmile:

[Toliudar]

If it's a solo campaign, then why not just stop gestalting everything else and leave your PC the way it is? I'm confused.

[unseenmage]

If it's a solo campaign, then why not just stop gestalting everything else and leave your PC the way it is? I'm confused.

Because it's only kind of sort of a Solo campaign. It's a shared world with shared DMs. And mulch-generational to boot.

Above all, unGestalting him was the DM's request. And I agreed to do it so I could keep playing the character.

[Ssin]

tinkering with epic spells without being at the maximum of a casting class is going to be difficult, as far as I am aware epic spells can only be casted when having the feat for it which requires being at the maximum of your spellcasting progression.

[unseenmage]

tinkering with epic spells without being at the maximum of a casting class is going to be difficult, as far as I am aware epic spells can only be casted when having the feat for it which requires being at the maximum of your spellcasting progression.

That's what I thought I remembered too. Isn't there something about Artifact Spells in an Eberron book somewhere? I might talk to my DM about epic player controlled Minor Artifact creation being a feature of some sort of Chosen of Gond template. Think the Chosen of Mystra template like the what the Simbul has only from another god.

[herrhauptmann]

A common fallacy in gestalt is that a level X gestalt PC is equal in power to a level 2X nongestalt. DM wants you to make your character non-gestalt, his request. Did he say to do it by turning into a level 22 character? And what about your gear?
Is eh going to keep throwing the same old (somehow gestalted) monsters at you? Or scale them to your level? Suddenly hitting level 22 will give him a lot of work.
If you rebuilt as a level 14 or 15 non-gestalt, it won't be near as much work for the DM. Monsters also won't be near as bad.

If you're not able to cast 9th level spells of your list (cleric/wizard/artificer/whatever) you can't use epic spells. There's ways around that, but I think it involves kobolds.

[unseenmage]

A common fallacy in gestalt is that a level X gestalt PC is equal in power to a level 2X nongestalt. DM wants you to make your character non-gestalt, his request. Did he say to do it by turning into a level 22 character? And what about your gear?
Is eh going to keep throwing the same old (somehow gestalted) monsters at you? Or scale them to your level? Suddenly hitting level 22 will give him a lot of work.
If you rebuilt as a level 14 or 15 non-gestalt, it won't be near as much work for the DM. Monsters also won't be near as bad.

If you're not able to cast 9th level spells of your list (cleric/wizard/artificer/whatever) you can't use epic spells. There's ways around that, but I think it involves kobolds.

I'm the only non-epic character he's designing characters for in this world, and thanks to having nigh infinite wealth I'm equipped as a 20th level character.
Up to this point the only limit was that I wasn't allowed to buy an item with an epic gp cost. So gear isn't an issue.

The monsters I'm fighting now are already epic and a lot of work. Dialing things back to half strength just for me was one of his troubles.
When he Dmed for me he wasn't Gestalting most of what I dealt with, it's the guy who originally made the shared campaign who insists on the Gestalt-everything.

That sucks about the no epic spells but that might also be for the best. I'm already accessing the Custom Magic Item rules and you can't put Epic Spells into items anyway. Unless there's an Epic progression for the Artificer that I'm unaware of.

[Rubik]

A gestalt party is (generally) considered ECL/CR+2 for the purposes of the challenges they are capable of facing. Have you considered just doing what you're doing and having the DM bump the challenges up by +2 CR?

[unseenmage]

A gestalt party is (generally) considered ECL/CR+2 for the purposes of the challenges they are capable of facing. Have you considered just doing what you're doing and having the DM bump the challenges up by +2 CR?

I'm not sure i understand what you mean. I'm already facing epic challenges as a Gestalt 11th level character and if we go forward as planned I'll be a 22nd level character facing the same challenges instead.

[GreenETC]

The biggest problem I can see is that having a character unzipped like that and then thrown into Epic won't survive. You're not going to be able to handle a lot of what you fight, especially since you only have 6th level spells in a world where creatures come bog standard with good spells. Imagine your character, right now, fighting a Balor, a monster with a CR 2 below you, meaning it could be a mook in this sort of adventure.

What sort of Epic tier challenges are you currently fighting right now that you're surviving, because I'm amazed that a level 11, even gestalted, could handle anything in epic tier.

[unseenmage]

The biggest problem I can see is that having a character unzipped like that and then thrown into Epic won't survive. You're not going to be able to handle a lot of what you fight, especially since you only have 6th level spells in a world where creatures come bog standard with good spells. Imagine your character, right now, fighting a Balor, a monster with a CR 2 below you, meaning it could be a mook in this sort of adventure.

What sort of Epic tier challenges are you currently fighting right now that you're surviving, because I'm amazed that a level 11, even gestalted, could handle anything in epic tier.

As I mentioned in an earlier post check out the Dancing Broomstaff offensive in my sig. That's this character's solution to the epic challenge described in that thread.

This character has nigh infinite wealth and is equipped with all the best nonepic equipment and Contingency type spells.

The creature that sent me to remove the aboleth was an epic Shadow Dragon who I'm sure will be trying to kill me after I've dealt with his little errand.

[herrhauptmann]

If you're fighting epic threats as a level 11 gestalt, your game is already borked. It shouldn't even be possible for you to injure them, regardless of WBL, let alone actually threaten them.

[unseenmage]

If you're fighting epic threats as a level 11 gestalt, your game is already borked. It shouldn't even be possible for you to injure them, regardless of WBL, let alone actually threaten them.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Which is also why I'm fine with becoming a sub-par epic character as that's what I am already playing thanks to WBL-mancy.

[herrhauptmann]

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Which is also why I'm fine with becoming a sub-par epic character as that's what I am already playing thanks to WBL-mancy.

I honestly thought you were level 11, fighting challenges appropriate to a level 11 solo gestalt...

By unzipping like this, you'll get better saves, bab, hp. Your spells won't be any better though, so your survivability goes up a bit, but overall effectiveness in combat doesn't really change.
You will have access to epic feats though, only 1 or 2, so make the most of them.

[unseenmage]

I honestly thought you were level 11, fighting challenges appropriate to a level 11 solo gestalt...

By unzipping like this, you'll get better saves, bab, hp. Your spells won't be any better though, so your survivability goes up a bit, but overall effectiveness in combat doesn't really change.
You will have access to epic feats though, only 1 or 2, so make the most of them.

Sorry for the confusion. Which Epic feat would you suggest?

[herrhauptmann]

Fast Healing if you've got the Con?
PErmanent Emanation.
Tenacious Magic.


I don't normally play in Epic games, and the Epic feats really aren't that great anyway. (Besides improved spell capacity and epic spellcasting)