Pathfinder vs. 3.5 Edition War!

[Reddish Mage]

I was wondering what the members of the OOTS would look like if we set up a Pathfinder vs. 3.5 edition war in the spirit of the SSnDT Edition Wars. Also, what would the battle look like?

[Vemynal]

oh thank evil; I thought from the title this was actually meant to be a "pathfinder vs 3.5" systems thread and was all "omg nooooooo" lol.

This on the other hand seems fun, since I'm here I'd just say that I feel that the roles of characters between 3.5 and PF are very similar and so it wouldn't be nearly as different like last time.

The biggest change I suppose would be the archtypes available to the PF characters.

[ti'esar]

This on the other hand seems fun, since I'm here I'd just say that I feel that the roles of characters between 3.5 and PF are very similar and so it wouldn't be nearly as different like last time.

Yeah, I don't really see this going anywhere interesting, since the whole point of Pathfinder is to be "3.51".

[Tsyndrome]

Might be more fun to have edition wars with DnD Next, though again, it wouldn't be as different as the 4th Ed. one in SSaDT.

Maybe something about the advantage mechanic? I dunno, not much that's funny beyond,
"Okay, now try to attack me twice."
"Okay, I hit once and I missed once."
"Okay, so we're only going to count the miss."
"WHAT?"
"Disadvantage."

[Sloanzilla]

A 3.5 gnome druid shifts into a 30 str polar bear and mauls the holy snot out of a Pathfinder 14 str gnome druid polar bear.

A Pathfinder wizard crafts a bunch of stuff and then laughs at his 3.5 brother, who lost experience points in the process.

A sorcerer brags about having "eschew materials" and then realizes that nobody, throughout history, has ever enforced the rule that his class ability eliminated.

A Pathfinder rogue celebrates after sneak attacking undead, but then realizes that he still sucks.

I should probably read the original thread though.

[ellindsey]

Pathfinder doesn't really have rules for Epic levels, so Familicide, Cloister, and probably the making of the Gates couldn't happen. (Though the GM might just handwave those anyway).

[137beth]

Pathfinder doesn't really have rules for Epic levels, so Familicide, Cloister, and probably the making of the Gates couldn't happen. (Though the GM might just handwave those anyway).

Wrong. It doesn't have rules for epic spells. Epic Levels are defined and explained in the core rulebook.

But, if we are going to go RAW-silly...

In PF, books written for 3.5 "officially" work in PF, so PF OOTS would be able to use everything from 3.5 AND from PF.

But WotC never "officially" acknowledged PF, so by RAW, 3.5 OOTS cannot use PF stuff. So PF oots has an obvious advantage:smallbiggrin:

PF wizards can cast spells from their opposition schools, so PF V can summon/call/teleport

TWF and archery are both somewhat better in PF (archery much more so than TWF), and sneak attack was buffed enormously, so Haley and Belkar are both stronger in PF.

PF Elan is probably the weakest compared to his 3.5 counterpart.

LA was removed, so Durkon can now level almost as fast as the rest of the party...

So yea, I'd say PF OOTS would obliterate 3.5 OOTS.

EDIT: the paladin got possibly the biggest boost in core except at very high optimization levels, so PF ghost-martyr Soon would have been even more awesome than 3.5 Soon.

[FujinAkari]

In PF, books written for 3.5 "officially" work in PF, so PF OOTS would be able to use everything from 3.5 AND from PF.

But WotC never "officially" acknowledged PF, so by RAW, 3.5 OOTS cannot use PF stuff. So PF oots has an obvious advantage:smallbiggrin:


Nope! (Chuck Testa)

Although PF is designed to be officially compatable with 3.5, the specifics of how 3.5 spells and abilities function is still protected within the Open Game License, therefore any PF character attempting to use 3.5 content would be guilty of intellectual theft and escorted from the field of battle by our two favorite lawyers :)

You can get away with it in an ACTUAL PF game since you, presumably, own -both- sets of books.

[Reddish Mage]

In PF, books written for 3.5 "officially" work in PF, so PF OOTS would be able to use everything from 3.5 AND from PF.

But WotC never "officially" acknowledged PF, so by RAW, 3.5 OOTS cannot use PF stuff. So PF oots has an obvious advantage:smallbiggrin:

PF wizards can cast spells from their opposition schools, so PF V can summon/call/teleport

TWF and archery are both somewhat better in PF (archery much more so than TWF), and sneak attack was buffed enormously, so Haley and Belkar are both stronger in PF.

PF Elan is probably the weakest compared to his 3.5 counterpart.

LA was removed, so Durkon can now level almost as fast as the rest of the party...

So yea, I'd say PF OOTS would obliterate 3.5 OOTS.

EDIT: the paladin got possibly the biggest boost in core except at very high optimization levels, so PF ghost-martyr Soon would have been even more awesome than 3.5 Soon.


Nope! (Chuck Testa)

Although PF is designed to be officially compatable with 3.5, the specifics of how 3.5 spells and abilities function is still protected within the Open Game License, therefore any PF character attempting to use 3.5 content would be guilty of intellectual theft and escorted from the field of battle by our two favorite lawyers :)

You can get away with it in an ACTUAL PF game since you, presumably, own -both- sets of books.

So as I see the Pathfinder character will probably have a lot more disposable magic items, and due to all the buffs in addition, the Pathfinder Order will mop the floor with the 3.5 counterparts. However, before the matter can be settled, the duel will be interrupted and both sides will be dragged off by the lawyers.

[Psyren]

There are few to no ideological differences between the two so at best it would be a one-panel joke. The 4e battle made sense because (a) 4th really was trying to supplant 3.5, and (b) 4e was going in a radically different direction (i.e. towards the "G" and away from the "S" on the GNS spectrum), which gave the characters plenty of ideological stances to take. (This was most obvious with V and Roy - fitting as they represented the two ends of the power spectrum in 3.5.)


Yeah, I don't really see this going anywhere interesting, since the whole point of Pathfinder is to be "3.51".

Basically that. This is a non-starter on every level.

[F.Harr]

What's the GNS spectrum?

[Sian]

What's the GNS spectrum?

Going on a limp and guess that he means GNS theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory)

[F.Harr]

Gamist

Narritive

Simulationist.

Three goals in a role-playing game.

[MtlGuy]

I was wondering what the members of the OOTS would look like if we set up a Pathfinder vs. 3.5 edition war in the spirit of the SSnDT Edition Wars. Also, what would the battle look like?

Pathfinder OOTS would have an advantage across the board given that overall.

I think the 3.5 V would be jealous of his/her pathfinder counterpart. No xp costs for magic item construction, opposition schools aren't banned, they just take an additional spell slot and any can be chosen as opposed to different tiers of opposition.

Pathfinder OOTS would just have to make perception checks, not independent spot and listen checks. Belkar wouldn't have an XP penalty for having a gap between his Ranger and Barbarian levels. He'd merely not gain an extra HP or skill point when taking a level of Barbarian (assuming Ranger is his favored class).

[Kaiisaxo]

Pathfinder OOTS would have an advantage across the board given that overall.

I think the 3.5 V would be jealous of his/her pathfinder counterpart. No xp costs for magic item construction, opposition schools aren't banned, they just take an additional spell slot and any can be chosen as opposed to different tiers of opposition.

Pathfinder OOTS would just have to make perception checks, not independent spot and listen checks. Belkar wouldn't have an XP penalty for having a gap between his Ranger and Barbarian levels. He'd merely not gain an extra HP or skill point when taking a level of Barbarian (assuming Ranger is his favored class).

I bet the PF versions of Roy, Durkon, Belkar and V would start trashing the floor with their counterparts, just to notice they are being suddenly outnumbered by regular Haley and Elan who made short work of PF Elan and PF Haley (Both rogues and bards got badly nerfed by PF), turning the tide then V notices her spells are actually better than PF V's despite she casting from conjuration and Durkon eventually slays his pair since it has lower Hit dice. Then everything falls in place The party gangs up on PF Roy while the Belkars go drinking and looking for hookers

[137beth]

I bet the PF versions of Roy, Durkon, Belkar and V would start trashing the floor with their counterparts, just to notice they are being suddenly outnumbered by regular Haley and Elan who made short work of PF Elan and PF Haley (Both rogues and bards got badly nerfed by PF), turning the tide then V notices her spells are actually better than PF V's despite she casting from conjuration and Durkon eventually slays his pair since it has lower Hit dice. Then everything falls in place The party gangs up on PF Roy while the Belkars go drinking and looking for hookers

Uh, nothing about the PF rogue was nerfed:smallsigh:
It was buffed less than the other classes. It is still superior to the 3.5 rogue in essentially every way they differ.

[Sucrose]

Uh, nothing about the PF rogue was nerfed:smallsigh:
It was buffed less than the other classes. It is still superior to the 3.5 rogue in essentially every way they differ.

Incorrect; several notable means of getting sneak attack were removed, making several iterations of the PF rogue weaker than their equivalent in 3.5 would be.

[Reddish Mage]

I bet the PF versions of Roy, Durkon, Belkar and V would start trashing the floor with their counterparts, just to notice they are being suddenly outnumbered by regular Haley and Elan who made short work of PF Elan and PF Haley (Both rogues and bards got badly nerfed by PF), turning the tide then V notices her spells are actually better than PF V's despite she casting from conjuration and Durkon eventually slays his pair since it has lower Hit dice. Then everything falls in place The party gangs up on PF Roy while the Belkars go drinking and looking for hookers

Now that's the sort of conflict I was hoping for.

[Sloanzilla]

Pathfinder Durkon would not have the option of taking Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell and carrying a bunch of nightsticks and walking around with divine power and righteous might active for 24 hours a day.

Pathfinder closed some of the sneak attack rogue loopholes, sure, but Pathfinder Hayley would still have 12 more hit points and 4-5 more rogue talents than 3.5 Hayley. I guess it depends on her build.

Pathfinder V could have blown two spell slots to teleport outside of the cloister area, thus eliminating 100 or so comic strips.

Pathfinder Elan has a bunch of abilities I've never quite been able to understand, so I doubt he would either.

[sr123]

One important improvement in PF bards is that Bardic Performance is ridiculously easy to do. At 7th level it's a move action to start and a free action to maintain, so PF Elan can buff his party the entire time while swashbuckling or casting.

[137beth]

Incorrect; several notable means of getting sneak attack were removed, making several iterations of the PF rogue weaker than their equivalent in 3.5 would be.

PF sneak attack is still much, much better: it now works on a lot more creature types. You are no longer completely useless 80% of the time!
Note that it wouldn't help in a hypothetical duel between a human PF rogue and a human 3.5 rogue, as seems to be implied by the earlier discussion in the thread...
in an actual non-pvp game, though, sneak attack got a huge buff. Unfortunately it isn't as big as the buff they gave to Smite Evil, and the extra tricks aren't that great. But overall, the rogue is slightly buffed in PF...

[illyahr]

(Both rogues and bards got badly nerfed by PF)

How do you figure? :smallconfused:

Some loopholes were closed in Sneak Attack, yes, but the Rogue is overall more useful. The Bard? More Bardic Music abilities, their abilities activate faster and are maintained as a free action allowing Elan to actually participate in combat.

And let's not forget an important fundamental change in the overall mechanics: feats are gained every other level instead of every third level. Roy would gain a feat every level as a fighter, and each of the other characters would have a couple additional feats.

[illyahr]

Also: skills work a bit differently. There is no "1 point equals 1/2 a rank in cross-class skills" in pathfinder. You don't get the x4 skill points at 1st level, but cross-class skills aren't any more expensive than class skills. Class skills just get you a +3 miscellaneous bonus when you put a rank into it. For example, haley putting one pont into Stealth (Hide and Move Silently were combined) would leave her with 1+3+DEX Mod, assuming no armor. Her putting a point into Knowledge: Arcana would be 1+INT mod instead of 1/2 + INT Mod.

[Morty]

The thing is that most of the 'nerfs' and 'upgrades' to classes people have been arguing about are the kind of thing OotS tends to ignore. The only change Pathfinder introduces that would actually make an impact on anything is that V would be able to teleport if needed. The rest... not really.

[Kaiisaxo]

How do you figure? :smallconfused:

Some loopholes were closed in Sneak Attack, yes, but the Rogue is overall more useful. The Bard? More Bardic Music abilities, their abilities activate faster and are maintained as a free action allowing Elan to actually participate in combat

1) Inspire courage has always been sustained as a free action, moreover if Elan's lute is masterwork he would also be able to cast spells without somatic components while doing so
2) 3.5 fascinate and suggestion are way stronger than their PF versions, Elan could easily catch PF Elan and Haley and give them the command to leave the battlefield
3)The extra bardic music abilities don't quite make up for them being more fiddly and way more limited, a PF bard can run out of rounds of bardic music mid combat, a 3.5 one doesn't run that risk

[illyahr]

1) Inspire courage has always been sustained as a free action, moreover if Elan's lute is masterwork he would also be able to cast spells without somatic components

I don't think so. Even the Giant has kept this point as Elan can do nothing while Inspiring. Also, the bardic music ability states that the bard can't use any spells, spell completion items, or spell trigger items that have a verbal trigger. However, the effect of the sustained abilities last for an additional 5 rounds after the bard stops performing, so that may be where you are getting confused. (PHB, page 29)


2) 3.5 fascinate and suggestion are way stronger than their PF versions, Elan could easily catch PF Elan and Haley and give them the command to leave the battlefield

Actually, no. Fascinate doesn't work if there is combat going on. Says so in the description. The bard's suggestion ability only works on those he has fascinated, so it also doesn't work in combat. (PHB, page 29)


3)The extra bardic music abilities don't quite make up for them being more fiddly and way more limited, a PF bard can run out of rounds of bardic music mid combat, a 3.5 one doesn't run that risk

More fiddly, maybe, but a lot less limited. PF allows the bard to sustain as a free action so the bard can participate in combat, gives more abilities that are useful in combat, and generally improves his combat abilities. Where 3.5 Elan had to take a homebrewed prestige class, PF Elan would be able to fight AND support at the same time.

[CombatOwl]

I was wondering what the members of the OOTS would look like if we set up a Pathfinder vs. 3.5 edition war in the spirit of the SSnDT Edition Wars. Also, what would the battle look like?

Roy would be a million times more useful in Pathfinder. Two-handed fighters are pretty sickening. Belkar would be in the same boat--Pathfinder significantly improves both rangers and barbarians. Haley would be about the same (but could rip Xykon a new one). V would lose a bit, in both absolute terms and relative to everyone else. Durkon would be about the same, but a whole lot better with negative energy. Elan would likewise be a lot better due to the changes in bardic performance.

[Sloanzilla]

can't really agree that Pathfinder wizards got nerfed.

They lost a few (but not all) of the save or die spells in exchange for:

More hitpoints (D6 and +1)
A much more nicey-nice familiar system
The ability to cast from prohibited schools
Getting some really good class abilities (teleport, init bonuses)
More Feats

[Morty]

Roy would be a million times more useful in Pathfinder. Two-handed fighters are pretty sickening. Belkar would be in the same boat--Pathfinder significantly improves both rangers and barbarians.

Except, like I said, those are mostly numbers, which OotS ignores.

[Psyren]

The rogue argument is irrelevant - none of the ways of enabling sneak attack that didn't make it to PF are used in the comic anyway. We don't see Haley forcing Balance checks or wearing a Ring of Blinking with Seeking Arrows for instance.

Similarly, V doesn't really use SoDs (other than Prismatic Spray I guess?) so that wouldn't be much of a change either.

[Sloanzilla]

I just realized that even with a -2 wisdom penalty, a raging Belkar's wisdom save (due to Halfling luck, ranger levels and rage) would not be that bad.

Pathfinder Belkar would probably eventually make his save on a hold person!

[Kaiisaxo]

I don't think so. Even the Giant has kept this point as Elan can do nothing while Inspiring. Also, the bardic music ability states that the bard can't use any spells, spell completion items, or spell trigger items that have a verbal trigger. However, the effect of the sustained abilities last for an additional 5 rounds after the bard stops performing, so that may be where you are getting confused. (PHB, page 29)
No, Inspire courage doesn't say it needs concentration, this isn't a PF innovation for any measure. Elan could fight if he wanted or knew how to do it without using his hands. More so, special rules for masterwork instruments allow to cast spells as long as you don't need to stop playing to use your hands in the casting. And there is another feat that allows to manipulate a weapon or an item of the same size instead of using somatic components (besides still spell).
I don't know why Elan stays in the back, but that isn't because he needs to.


Actually, no. Fascinate doesn't work if there is combat going on. Says so in the description. The bard's suggestion ability only works on those he has fascinated, so it also doesn't work in combat. (PHB, page 29)

Nop, it only says it doesn't works if the target is threatened on any way, that means that as long as nobody threatens your target the world could be crumbling around and nothing would happen


More fiddly, maybe, but a lot less limited. PF allows the bard to sustain as a free action so the bard can participate in combat, gives more abilities that are useful in combat, and generally improves his combat abilities. Where 3.5 Elan had to take a homebrewed prestige class, PF Elan would be able to fight AND support at the same time.
Like I said the free sustain isn't a PF innovation, they just made it more explicit. And bards were already very capable of handling themselves on 3.5. Elan is just Elan. and a PF Elan wouldn't be too different, except his music would be overall weaker, his skill efficiency would drop, and he wouldn't be as capable of spellcasting as our Elan.

[137beth]

can't really agree that Pathfinder wizards got nerfed.

They lost a few (but not all) of the save or die spells in exchange for:

More hitpoints (D6 and +1)
A much more nicey-nice familiar system
The ability to cast from prohibited schools
Getting some really good class abilities (teleport, init bonuses)
More Feats
3.5 wizards already got really good class features and feats from prestige classes. And the prestige classes in 3.5 have better class features than a PF straight wizard. It's a substantial nerf after level 5, except at very, very, very low optimization levels (almost anyone who looks at a PrC that gives full casting progression would take it over the 3.5 base class if they were going for crunch).
And at extra-low OP, and below level 6, wizards didn't need a nerf, they needed a buff if anything.

[FujinAkari]

It's a substantial nerf after level 5, except at very, very, very low optimization levels

We're discussing a combat between OOTS as is and in PF, thus we are explicitly talking about subterranean optimization levels.

I swear, half the posts in this thread are discussing things wholly outside the scope of the OP's premise :P

[HylianKnight]

Interesting concept, but I think it'd probably turn out a bit boring.

They'd all essentially match-up, except the PF crew would have more HP and feats and a free +2 to one ability score.

The only significant issues I can see in Party v. Party combat is PF V using some perfect spell from one of his barred schools, sacrificing the two spell slots to make it happen. Also PF Haley would be getting sneak attacks on Vampire Durkon.

The rest of the changes seem negligible. PF Durkon wouldn't start with Heavy Armor Proficiency, but given that he's working with a couple extra feats, I imagine one of them would be spent on that.

Elan's Dashing Swordsman requirement of making quips would seem to preclude him fighting and supporting at the same time, even under PF rules.

Roy would be the only one to get really outclassed by gong toe to toe with his PF counterpart, I think. Beyond the whole more feats thing, PF Roy would be getting an extra +4 to attack and damage rolls (+3 from Weapon Training, +1 from the free stat boost), as well as being able to maneuver much better in armor, which I think would come up in some way for a tactician like him.

[Procyonpi]

There are few to no ideological differences between the two so at best it would be a one-panel joke. The 4e battle made sense because (a) 4th really was trying to supplant 3.5, and (b) 4e was going in a radically different direction (i.e. towards the "G" and away from the "S" on the GNS spectrum), which gave the characters plenty of ideological stances to take. (This was most obvious with V and Roy - fitting as they represented the two ends of the power spectrum in 3.5.)



Basically that. This is a non-starter on every level.

Interestingly, I think Pathfinder has done a better job of actually supplanting 3.5 than 4e.

[HylianKnight]

Interestingly, I think Pathfinder has done a better job of actually supplanting 3.5 than 4e.

Given that Pathfinder is still going strong, while there has been one new D&D book published since the announcement of DnD Next in January of 2012, I'd say that's pretty factual at this point.

Turns out when you create a system dedicated to fixing the previous one while still being backwards compatible, it keeps a lot more of the fans then the one that tries to replace it completely with a brand new design philosophy.

[Reddish Mage]

Given that Pathfinder is still going strong, while there has been one new D&D book published since the announcement of DnD Next in January of 2012, I'd say that's pretty factual at this point.

Turns out when you create a system dedicated to fixing the previous one while still being backwards compatible, it keeps a lot more of the fans then the one that tries to replace it completely with a brand new design philosophy.

IMHO PF is mainly about adding a lot of spiffy bonuses to 3.5e (the nerfings are thrown in after as a pathetic attempt to balance things). It makes 3.5, which is already extremely technical and geeky, even more technical and geeky. It does not clear up the 3.5 balance issues. 4th edition is the sort of thing that is much easier for a beginner to pick up and much easier to DM, the rules are simpler and made uniform among all the classes. On the other hand, 4th does take a make-equal-by-making-same approach quite far, and departs quite a lot farther than 3.5 in divorcing the combat and abilities from anything that looks remotely realistic.

[Sloanzilla]

I actually mechanically prefer 3.5 to Pathfinder for the reason you described (Pathfinder feels like Oprah came out on stage and said 'Everyone gets a feat! And more hit points! And no more crafting exp cost!") but Pathfinder is a living-breathing system that releases new adventure paths and has responsive developers, so Pathfinder wins.

Take 3.5- nerf druid shapechange, remove divine metamagic and a few absurd splatbook combos, and reduce the number of save or die spells and you've got an ideal system, IMO.

I like technical geeky systems, especially ones I've been familiar with for decades.

[illyahr]

No, Inspire courage doesn't say it needs concentration, this isn't a PF innovation for any measure. Elan could fight if he wanted or knew how to do it without using his hands. More so, special rules for masterwork instruments allow to cast spells as long as you don't need to stop playing to use your hands in the casting. And there is another feat that allows to manipulate a weapon or an item of the same size instead of using somatic components (besides still spell).
I don't know why Elan stays in the back, but that isn't because he needs to.


Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands). Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component (see Components, page 174), a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music.

Keep in mind, the only abilities that EXPLICITLY state concentration are the Fascinate and Freedom of Movement abilities. None of the others even mention it. I would think that the phrase "Some bardic music abilities" would imply more than two. I take this to mean any that say "as long as they can hear the bard sing" and that is the interpretation everyone I have played with has taken, however the RAW are kind of vague on that point. If you DM differently, that is your prerogative.


Nop, it only says it doesn't works if the target is threatened on any way, that means that as long as nobody threatens your target the world could be crumbling around and nothing would happen.


Fascinate (Sp): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working.


Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect,

Your argument is invalid.


Like I said the free sustain isn't a PF innovation, they just made it more explicit. And bards were already very capable of handling themselves on 3.5. Elan is just Elan. and a PF Elan wouldn't be too different, except his music would be overall weaker, his skill efficiency would drop, and he wouldn't be as capable of spellcasting as our Elan.


Bardic Performance: A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.

Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action...

So yes, a free sustain is explicitly stated for those abilities that require sustainment. The only question is whether or not the 3.5 abilities that require you to continue actually require you to concentrate on them but that is up to DM interpretation.

[Falcar]

I think we are ignoring a major aspect that V will like, PF elves gain a +2 against spell resistance. It even stacks with spell penetration. V could easily have a +4, no more shall the universe but an equalizing factor between those who can bend reality with their mind and those who cannot. :smallbiggrin: