Help Acquiring Material Components (3.5)

[atomicwaffle]

So in a few weeks, i'll hit a lvl to get Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. One problem: The homebrew world of our DM black dragons are almost extinct. I had to pay 500 gp for a vial of black dragon's blood for 1 use of the spell (so eschew materials is out). Is there any way to maximize my use of this vial of blood (already talked to the DM, can't use a substitute component) or possibly replicate it (fabricate won't work, its not vegetable matter).

The best i could come up with is using Craft Wondrous Items to get a Circlet of the Mages. What are my options?

[Toliudar]

First, I've never seen Mnemonic Enhancer used in a game in a way that felt like it was worth the investment of a 4th level spell slot. Is there a particular reason you want to access this spell?

If you're set on having that kind of flexibility, you might want to invest in pearls of power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) instead.

As an alternative, talk with your DM about researching a variant form of the spell that doesn't have the absurd requirements?

[Fax Celestis]

Ice assassin strikes again?

[Forrestfire]

Aww, I was going to suggest Ice Assassin. In any case, a scroll of it is going to be expensive, costing 48,825 gp.

Might I suggest that instead of using Mnemonic Enhancer, you simply leave a slot open at the start of each day, and prepare spells for 15 minutes to fill it? It won't let you recover multiple level 1 slots or a level 2 and a level 1 slot, but it'll let you get a 4th level spell if you want and only takes five minutes longer than the casting time anyway.


Alternatively, ask the DM how diluted the dragon blood can be for it to work. Who knows, maybe the ratios in "ink consisting of squid secretion with black dragon’s blood" can be of homeopathic levels and still count.

[TuggyNE]

Alternatively, ask the DM how diluted the dragon blood can be for it to work. Who knows, maybe the ratios in "ink consisting of squid secretion with black dragon’s blood" can be of homeopathic levels and still count.

That doesn't mean they'll charge less for it. :smalltongue:

[Forrestfire]

That doesn't mean they'll charge less for it. :smalltongue:

Well, he said that he had to pay 500 gp for a vial of black dragon's blood, which is not what the spell asks for, so I assumed that by pointing this out to the DM, he might be able to get multiple uses out of.

Because seriously, blood's a terrible ink, so it would make sense to mix it with a liquid conducive to writing before calling it that :smalltongue:

[ryu]

There's another feat that adds a layer eschew components allowing you to replace material components that have worth with a price of five times the gold value in xp. It's a bit feat taxy, but probably the simplest way of doing this.

[ArcturusV]

Or pick up a level in Maho-Tsukai, so you can just bleed yourself instead of using any given material component.

[Thanatosia]

I don't think Eschew Materials is supposed to work off of economic principles. If the spell doens't list a spell component cost, then Eschew Materials works on it. If there is some wierd world specific market condition that is making the normal value-less item valuable, I dont see why the feat would suddenly stop functioning.

[Emperor Tippy]

Use a drop of the blood as the material component of a Simulacrum spell, bleed your new black dragon at need and then heal it up just to bleed it some more.

Problem solved.

[Invader]

Use shapesand to make all your heart desires.

[Maginomicon]

Use shapesand to make all your heart desires.

Or a Chaos Flask.

[Tim Proctor]

Use a drop of the blood as the material component of a Simulacrum spell, bleed your new black dragon at need and then heal it up just to bleed it some more.

Problem solved.

Tippy = Win

^^^That's for the sig. Would that require an Evil alignment, to torture a living creature?

[ryu]

Tippy = Win

^^^That's for the sig. Would that require an Evil alignment, to torture a living creature?

I doubt it. Compare the size of the creature and the amount of blood it must have to the actual amount necessary to use the spell. Every dose would probably be like a mosquito bite.

[Maginomicon]

I doubt it. Compare the size of the creature and the amount of blood it must have to the actual amount necessary to use the spell. Every dose would probably be like a mosquito bite.
I'm not sure because AFB, but IIRC there are rules in the BoVD for how much blood a creature has available.

[atomicwaffle]

Well, he said that he had to pay 500 gp for a vial of black dragon's blood, which is not what the spell asks for, so I assumed that by pointing this out to the DM, he might be able to get multiple uses out of.

Because seriously, blood's a terrible ink, so it would make sense to mix it with a liquid conducive to writing before calling it that :smalltongue:

i already tried that. He clearly stated that one use of the spell costs what it costs. In his world black dragons are almost all extinct. And no substitution can be used.

If it helps im a mystic theurge. c3 w3 mt3. Not really optimized. The campaign im in is 'low wealth' and wbl doesn't exist. I have enough to craft a circlet of the mages.

I want a mnemonic enhancer because im a specialist transmuter and i want that extra transmutation spell at lvl 4. Also i want to cast as many Sound Lance, Fireball, Scintillating Sphere, and Lightning Bolt as i can.

While we're on the subject, can the mnemonic enhancer or circlet work on prepared cleric spells?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There are much better things to do with a 4th level Transmutation spell slot than waste it on a Mnemonic Enhancer. There's Polymorph, Heart of Earth (CM), Celerity (PH2).... those sort of take the cake for powerful 4th level Transmutations, you can't really do any better than those.

Edit: You could also play the rules card and inform your DM that since the material component for this spell doesn't have a gp cost attached, it's intended to be free as long as you possess a spell component pouch. Regardless of how rare a black dragon's blood may be, any given spell component pouch contains an unlimited supply of the special ink that contains some of it. For all you know, a one million gallon vat of ink only needs a single drop of that blood to be usable for the spell!

[Psyren]

There are much better things to do with a 4th level Transmutation spell slot than waste it on a Mnemonic Enhancer. There's Polymorph, Heart of Earth (CM), Celerity (PH2).... those sort of take the cake for powerful 4th level Transmutations, you can't really do any better than those.

This. If your DM is making it hard to cast the spell, he probably doesn't want you casting it (and I doubt a cloned dragon farm will go over any better), so just cast something else.

[atomicwaffle]

i really like heart of earth, probably go that route. I banned abjuration and illusion (i dont like illusion spells and as a cleric, i still have access to abjuration) but heart of earth gives me access to stoneskin.

[bekeleven]

What if it was a 5-gallon flask?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What if it was a 5-gallon flask?

Doesn't matter how big the flask of dragon blood is, the component is ink containing some dragon blood. You could make a one million gallon vat of ink and stir in one drop of blood and it's good enough to be used as a component for a near limitless number of castings.

[atomicwaffle]

What if it was a 5-gallon flask?

the dm specifically stated when i asked, "how much dragon's blood is it?" he answered, "enough to cast the spell once."

I procured this vial of dragons blood by talking to a magical items dealer. She dimension doored me to a chained black dragon that she easily woman-handled and bled, claiming she also used the spell regularly. Her advice to me was if i didn't like the price, to capture my own black dragon.

Also, in this world black dragons have been hunted to near-extinction. They are exceedingly rare and most of them are survivors that grew up.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

the dm specifically stated when i asked, "how much dragon's blood is it?" he answered, "enough to cast the spell once."

I procured this vial of dragons blood by talking to a magical items dealer. She dimension doored me to a chained black dragon that she easily woman-handled and bled, claiming she also used the spell regularly. Her advice to me was if i didn't like the price, to capture my own black dragon.

Also, in this world black dragons have been hunted to near-extinction. They are exceedingly rare and most of them are survivors that grew up.

It doesn't matter, the rules state that if the spell's material components don't have a listed price, then any given spell component pouch contains enough of that component to cast the spell an unlimited number of times. The designers of the game never intended for that spell's material component to cost you anything, the part about being from a black dragon is only there for flavor, not so your DM has an excuse to be a jerk and deprive your character of a not even powerful spell.

Edit: You can also take Eschew Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials) and never need black dragon blood again.

[Story]

It doesn't matter, the rules state that if the spell's material components don't have a listed price, then any given spell component pouch contains enough of that component to cast the spell an unlimited number of times. The designers of the game never intended for that spell's material component to cost you anything, the part about being from a black dragon is only there for flavor, not so your DM has an excuse to be a jerk and deprive your character of a not even powerful spell.

Edit: You can also take Eschew Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials) and never need black dragon blood again.

It sounds like the DM basically just doesn't want him to cast the spell.

[Big Fau]

A wand works wonders, you know?

[lsfreak]

A wand works wonders, you know?

Wands require 50 times the material component cost, so that probably won't work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wands require 50 times the material component cost, so that probably won't work.

Not if the material component doesn't have a listed gp cost in the spell's description.

[lsfreak]

Yea but if the DM is requiring the OP to spend 500gp/spell when it's RAW free, do you really think he's not going to bend it to include wands as well?

[Big Fau]

Yea but if the DM is requiring the OP to spend 500gp/spell when it's RAW free, do you really think he's not going to bend it to include wands as well?

One or two vialsl should be more than enough if diluted in the squid ink. The spell doesn't call for a full vial, just a mixture of the two.


A piece of string, and ink consisting of squid secretion with black dragon’s blood.

[lsfreak]

One or two vialsl should be more than enough if diluted in the squid ink. The spell doesn't call for a full vial, just a mixture of the two.

Yea but the DM isn't playing nice.


the dm specifically stated when i asked, "how much dragon's blood is it?" he answered, "enough to cast the spell once.

[Big Fau]

Yea but the DM isn't playing nice.

Then the best answer is a scroll of Wish/Limited Wish. A DM being an ass isn't easy to deal with.

[Psyren]

Dragonblood does have a price, per Draconomicon. So I don't think the DM is being particularly unfair about this. And I'd expect dragon blood to be rare or otherwise tough to obtain.

Blah blah not core, I know, but we don't know what books the DM is drawing on for the setting either.

[atomicwaffle]

look, we're not discussing if the DM is a jerk (he isn't, he's actually really cool). And in terms of his world we are on, it makes sense given that black dragons are almost extinct. I'm ok to play by his rules, i wouldn't be invested in this campaign for over a year if i wasn't. I just wanted to know if there was a method of like, replicating the blood or something like that. I was not aware of spells like celerity or heart of earth, so i will probably change my strategy anyways and use one (or both) of those for my 4th level spell slots.

Also, where in the rules does it say that it's assumed a spell component pouch can take care of any item where the price is not listed? (i actually agree with the DM. Something like Black Dragon's Blood SHOULD be expensive)

[Captnq]

RARY’S MNEMONIC ENHANCER

- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK (3.0)
- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK 1 (3.5)
Transmutation
Level: Spell Domain 4, Wizard 4
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting this spell allows you to prepare additional spells or retain spells recently cast. Pick one of these two versions when the spell is cast. In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast).
Prepare: You prepare up to three additional levels of spells (such as three 1st-level spells, a 2nd- and a 1st-level spell, or a 3rd-level spell). A cantrip counts as 1/2 level for this purpose. You prepare and cast these spells normally.
Retain: You retain any spell of 3rd level or lower that you had cast up to 1 round before you started casting the mnemonic enhancer. This restores the previously cast spell to your mind.
Material Component: A piece of string, and ink consisting of squid secretion with black dragon’s blood.
Focus: An ivory plaque of at least 50 gp value.


Editor (Material Component): The common wisdom is, never bother with the feat Eschew Materials, because you can replace the feat with a spell component pouch and handle everything that costs less then a gold piece. What costs less then a gold piece? Anything that doesn’t have a listed price. So, my question is, how is the blood of a Black Dragon so common as to be worth less then one gold? Seriously, folks. Black dragon blood? Because I would totally make a wand out of this spell and cast it all the time. That is a great deal of dragon blood, you know? And why only black dragons? How about green dragons? Not magical enough? Sometimes I think they just pull crap out of their ass and never think about the implications. Regardless, by the RAW, the material component has no listed cost, and therefore is covered by Eschew Materials.
Editor (Wand): Now a brilliant use of this is in a wand is for any other prepared spellcaster to use it. With UMD you only need a 20 to activate, and as long as you fail by 9 or less, you don’t waste a charge. So the magic number is 10, because you’ll always roll a 1. That makes this useful to anyone who prepares spells ahead of time, if you have the UMD to take advantage of it. Do remember that you don’t have to buy a full wand. Under MIC, you can buy wands with as little as 10 charges. There is a downside. The casting time of 10 minutes renders it’s use limited to non-combat. Still, the promise of 150 levels of spells is mighty tempting.
Editor (Extend Spell): At first it looked like the metamagic feat Extend Spell would allow you to retain the spells for 48 hours. However, extend specifically excludes spells with a duration of instantaneous.
Editor (Rapid Spell): Now, sometimes you need a spell right now. Alas, the best you can hope for is within 10 rounds if you learn a rapid version of this spell. There are no other useful metamagic feats to put on this spell.
Editor (Earthbound Spell): I’m not sure if you can put a personal spell in an earthbound spell, but if you can, then this might be a good one to put into a trigger square and have another spellcaster in your party walk over.
Editor (Ring of Spell Storing): If you don’t want to tick off your DM, a 50,000 gp ring of spell storing will allow you to trade this spell around the party quite easily. No rule cheese here.
Editor (Archivist): As an archivist, you should look at this spell, since it is a spell domain spell, and therefore does have a clerical version.
Editor: A good spell, one that has many applications, but especially for non-wizards. Clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and any other prepared spellcaster can take advantage of this to stock up on extra spells when push comes to shove. Best kept in a wand for emergencies, this spell is a good mid range spell for rounding things out when you find yourself going, “Damn, I really wish I had prepared X, today.” Of course some DMs allow you to keep spell slots open and spend an hour to study your spellbook and fill it later. If this is your DM, then this spell loses it’s luster. However, that trick doesn’t work for Clerics who have to pray at the same hour each day. Luck favors the prepared, and that’s what this spell is for.

Scrolls
Rary’s Menumonic Enhancer (SL4/CL7): 700 gp
Standard.
Rary’s Menumonic Enhancer Rapid (SL5/CL9): 1125 gp
Casts in 10 rounds, not 100 rounds.

Wands
Rary’s Menumonic Enhancer (SL4/CL7): 21050 gp
Yes, you could have 150 levels of spells in your head for 15+ hours, because to use up every charge in a full wand would take over 8 hours and they start dropping off after 15 hours and 40 minutes.

-----
Your DM is shafting you. The Market can charge whatever it wants for black dragon blood, but if it doesn't have a listed price, it's less then a gp and covered by Eschewed Materials.

[Psyren]

Well, as I pointed out - black dragon blood has a price if Draconomicon is in play, and therefore the DM is not wrong to charge for it.

[Diarmuid]

Ask the DM what normally "pricey to cast" spells have much cheaper costs due to the changes he's made to his world. If his world is that different, he should have such a list available, if not then he's just being arbitrarily difficult and you are free to deal with that as you see fit.

[atomicwaffle]

Ask the DM what normally "pricey to cast" spells have much cheaper costs due to the changes he's made to his world. If his world is that different, he should have such a list available, if not then he's just being arbitrarily difficult and you are free to deal with that as you see fit.

I can understand where he's coming from. We both respect the importance of flavour. He has made some other rulings over the course of the campaign, often in my favour. But even he said, this is a special case due to the near-extinction of black dragons.

Its really not a big deal to me, i have plenty of other options available. I mainly want the spell to create a circlet of the mages, and i have the one-time cost for that.

I honestly don't feel he is being unfair. I was just wondering if there were alternatives aside from bitching.

[Captnq]

look, we're not discussing if the DM is a jerk
Also, where in the rules does it say that it's assumed a spell component pouch can take care of any item where the price is not listed? (i actually agree with the DM. Something like Black Dragon's Blood SHOULD be expensive)

Then he's changing the rules and should have told you up front before you spent gp on scribing the spell into your spellbook. (In my game I'm adding a 500 gp cost to Rary's M.E. because I don't understand the rules.) You know, that sort of thing.



ESCHEW MATERIALS [GENERAL]
You can cast spells without relying on material components.
Benefit: You can cast any spell that has a material component
costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of
the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell
requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must
have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as
normal.


If it's under a gp, you don't need it with this feat.



Spell Component Pouch: This small, watertight leather belt
pouch has many compartments. A spellcaster with a spell component
pouch is assumed to have all the material components and
focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that
have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a
pouch (such as the natural pool that a druid needs to look into to
cast scrying).


There is no listed price for RME, so therefore, the black dragon blood is less then a gp.



Material (M): A material component is one or more physical
substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the
casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the
cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components
with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you
have your spell component pouch.


I don't care what the market charges you. I could sell a wand of lesser vigor to a dying man for 100,000 gp. It don't change the fact that the wand only costs 375 gp to make. Selling it for 100,000 gp doesn't increase the cost to make it.

There is no listed price for the material components for RME. Therefore, the cost is less then a gp and covered by Eschew Materials, and should be in your pouch of spell components. Technically, If a spell called for the solid platinum balls of Bahamut, but didn't list a gp cost, you could find Bahamut's balls in any given spell component pouch you could buy at the wizard's market.

Why yes, that doesn't make sense. How is that possible?


This Should Explain It (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqqB8NjcKJU). (NSFW)

[Psyren]

Ask the DM what normally "pricey to cast" spells have much cheaper costs due to the changes he's made to his world. If his world is that different, he should have such a list available, if not then he's just being arbitrarily difficult and you are free to deal with that as you see fit.

For a third time, Draconomicon prices this stuff. It's not like he has a houserule "trap component" list to spring on his players and yell "gotcha!" He could simply be using that book.

And dragonblood costing money is not unreasonable, why is everyone acting like it is?

[atomicwaffle]

Then he's changing the rules and should have told you up front before you spent gp on scribing the spell into your spellbook. (In my game I'm adding a 500 gp cost to Rary's M.E. because I don't understand the rules.) You know, that sort of thing.



read my bloody posts. I haven't gotten the spell yet, im considering it for the future. I talked to him ahead of time BEFORE i even BOUGHT the dragons blood. i *gasp* RP'ed getting it because im researching a new spell. The DM did nothing wrong! ALL THIS IS ABOUT IS FINDING ALTERNATIVES, IF THERE ARE ANY! NOT BITCHING!

[Fax Celestis]

read my bloody posts. I haven't gotten the spell yet, im considering it for the future. I talked to him ahead of time BEFORE i even BOUGHT the dragons blood. i *gasp* RP'ed getting it because im researching a new spell. The DM did nothing wrong! ALL THIS IS ABOUT IS FINDING ALTERNATIVES, IF THERE ARE ANY! NOT BITCHING!

Relax.

People are being dumb.

Honestly the spell isn't even that good (as you've been demonstrated earlier in the thread and to my understanding actually agree with at this point).

And if you only need one use to make the item you want anyway, seems like one dose is all you really need, so wins all around.

[Artillery]

Take Improved Familiar and get a Pseudodragon.
Use Alter Self through Spell Sharing to make your Pseudodragon a Wyrmling Black Dragon.

You now have a Tiny Black Dragon to harvest from. Other options include Polymorph for a larger one.