Twin Sword Style vs Luck of Heroes [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

JoeChip

2013-09-27, 04:23 PM

Hello everyone

I want to make a human two weapon fighter, no multiclassing, for a Forgotten Realms 3.5 campaign. The only books available are Players handbook 1 & 2, Player's Guide To Faerun and Champions of Valor and I'm unsure what regional feat to take.

Twin Sword Style gives you a +2 AC bonus against a single opponent, but you lose that bonus if you are caught flat footed or loose your Dex bonus to AC for any reason. Luck of Heroes only gives you a +1 to AC but it applies against all opponents and I don't think you can ever lose it. Luck of Heroes also gives you a +1 bonus on all saving throws.

Since you can only take one regional feat am I better off taking Twin Sword Style, Luck of Heroes, a different regional feat, or just taking a regular non-regional feat?

Fax Celestis

2013-09-27, 04:25 PM

I would go with Luck of Heroes. Twin Sword Style's situationality makes it less effective, and Luck of Heroes' luck bonus will stack with pretty much anything.

JaronK

2013-09-27, 05:39 PM

Luck of Heroes, because it boosts saves, is much more useful.

Also be aware that it can be very hard to play as a single class two weapon fighting Fighter, especially with those books allowed.

JaronK

Mystral

2013-09-27, 05:41 PM

Two weapon fighter is horrible, so you'd better take luck of heroes.

Urpriest

2013-09-27, 05:46 PM

Take a normal feat. Since you're going straight Fighter (particularly with the typically suboptimal choice of two-weapon fighting), you've got a long and intricate feat chain planned out. After all, if you didn't need the feats you'd be multiclassing out of Fighter. As such, you'll do better by advancing up that feat chain earlier and getting your build-critical tricks on-line earlier than by picking up a minor defensive bonus.

TuggyNE

2013-09-27, 06:00 PM

Luck of Heroes only gives you a +1 to AC but it applies against all opponents and I don't think you can ever lose it. Luck of Heroes also gives you a +1 bonus on all saving throws.

I would have phrased that very differently, like this: "Luck of Heroes gives you an almost perfectly-stackable +1 bonus on all saving throws! Also apparently there's an AC bonus as a special extra feature? Who knew?"

JoeChip

2013-09-27, 08:01 PM

Urpriest

2013-09-27, 08:08 PM

Thanks for the advise everyone.

I'm aware that straight fighters/two-weapon fighters are not well liked but I'd really like to play one, mostly for flavor reasons. I'm not interested in making a character that's broken or optimized to hell and back, but I would like to not waste my feats and pick ones that make my character suck less. Any advise on doing that is appreciated.

Are you sure you want it to be a Fighter, though? Fighter is a class based on feats, it's meant to support another class's flavor since it doesn't have flavor of its own.

What sort of flavor are you going for? Even if you're limited to Core-only, there are options that will likely fit your intended flavor better.

Drelua

2013-09-27, 08:36 PM

I've got an idea for a TWF fighter; trade the bonus feats for sneak attack and take Martial Study and Martial Stance to get Island of Blades, then get a 'flanking' buddy (also-threatening buddy doesn't sound as good) either via Leadership, Wild Cohort, or just another party member. That gives you easily triggered bonus damage that should turn you into a much more effective blender.

Of course, the problem is that you're trading away your feats so you can do something that involves about a half-dozen feats, so it's not a perfect plan. Maybe see if you're DM will let you take Sneak Attack at some levels and bonus feats at others?

Edit: You can pretty much disregard this since I forgot about the book limitations. My bad. :smallredface:

Palanan

2013-09-27, 09:22 PM

Most of my campaigns have been in the Forgotten Realms, and Luck of Heroes is one of my favorite FR-specific feats. It's not rawr-optimized, but it's a nice boost for a low-level character. Grab it as your regional feat and don't worry about it.

:smalltongue:

Morphie

2013-09-28, 01:13 AM

The Mentalist

2013-09-28, 01:17 AM

Seriously, every time someone asks for help with something to do with the fighter people rush in to lecture him on how the fighter is bad, and how weak the class is, so send in the Tome of Battle, because blablabla...
The OP likes the Fighter and he wants to play one, so what's the problem?

Because the fighter often leads to frustration and boredom in many people's experiences. They are trying to prevent them from making a character that they won't enjoy as much as they think they will because they will have so much difficulty actually doing what their character was designed to do. Especially when someone is doing it for fluff reasons when fluff is so mutable.

But yeah, Between the two take Luck of Heroes, it's the much better feat.

JoeChip

2013-09-28, 01:20 AM

Are you sure you want it to be a Fighter, though? Fighter is a class based on feats, it's meant to support another class's flavor since it doesn't have flavor of its own.

What sort of flavor are you going for? Even if you're limited to Core-only, there are options that will likely fit your intended flavor better.

I disagree, Fighters have plenty of flavor in my opinion. They're the Badass Normals of D&D. They don't get powers from Magic, Gods, Nature or even Ki. They've just trained themselves to the point that they can kick ass without any arcane, divine or quasi-mystical special abilities and that's pretty cool. At least that's the way I see them flavor/fluff wise. Whether or not they can keep up with the other classes mechanically is a different story :smalltongue:

Flavor wise I want to make something along the line of your typical medieval fantasy master swordsman. Someone who's been training since they were old enough to lift a sword. I've always loved plate armor so I also wanted a character that wears the heaviest of armors. Think Knights of the round table as apposed to The Three Musketeers. Hope that answers your question.

WebTiefling

2013-09-28, 02:40 AM

Flavor wise I want to make something along the line of your typical medieval fantasy master swordsman. Someone who's been training since they were old enough to lift a sword. I've always loved plate armor so I also wanted a character that wears the heaviest of armors. Think Knights of the round table as apposed to The Three Musketeers. Hope that answers your question.

Two-weapon fighter who wears heavy armor? Historically (IRL, not D&D) those two have not gone together at all. The TWF's of reality were typically light and fast, that's why in D&D you have major penalties for using any sort of heavy sword for TWF.

Speed (IRL) is the name of the game for TWF. It was usually a rapier and a dagger of some sort.

Speed and super heavy armor don't go together. In D&D, I don't think heavy armors hurt TWF, but it's outside of the style, flavor-wise IRL.

But, D&D has only a passing resemblance to real life. If you think TWF and heavy armors go together, then rock on!

As a build, you might want to start it out with two levels of ranger - it gets you a bunch more skill points, better Ref save, the TWF feat, full BAB, and a favored enemy. It's a slightly slower start, if you want to get TWF started as quickly as possible, but it gets you a bunch of other goodies and doesn't drop you behind on Feats once you get past level 4. (assuming you don't count Track as a Feat you want)

Akal Saris

2013-09-28, 02:57 AM

Since Champions of Valor is allowed, there are 2 variant fighters in the book: one is the Darksong Knight, which are followers of a good-aligned drow goddess, and the other is the Zhentarim fighter (from the web enhancement to the book: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a).

Both give some free bonuses to the fighter class in return for the restriction of being a member of either an evil guild (Zhentarim) or a drow group (Elistraee).

If your party has some other members who fight in melee, I'd suggest Combat Reflexes and PHB II's vexing flanker and adaptable flanker, as two-weapon fighters often have a hard time hitting well and those feats' bonuses will help enormously. And picking up two-weapon pounce at Level 6 would be a no-brainer.

Here's a sample build to level 6:
Human Zhentarim fighter 6
Feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting [Ftr]
1: Weapon focus (short sword) [Human]
1: Luck of Heroes
2: Combat reflexes
3: Vexing flanker
3: Skill focus (Intimidate) [Zhentarim Ftr]
4: Weapon specialization [ftr]
6: Improved two-weapon fighting [ftr] (If you have the dex bonus high enough for it - otherwise adaptable flanker or power attack would be good substitutes)
6: Two-weapon pounce

Gwendol

2013-09-28, 03:44 AM

Strongly support the suggestions above. Zhent fighter is one of the better, and to further support it I would suggest trading luck of heroes for dreadful wrath. You will be full attacking a lot what with the choice of TWF, and so being able to debuff while doing that is great.

Mystral

2013-09-28, 03:58 AM

Flavor wise I want to make something along the line of your typical medieval fantasy master swordsman. Someone who's been training since they were old enough to lift a sword. I've always loved plate armor so I also wanted a character that wears the heaviest of armors. Think Knights of the round table as apposed to The Three Musketeers. Hope that answers your question.

That might well be about the worst possible way of building a suboptimal fighter I can think of.

If you wear full plate, you are gimping your dexterity bonus to armor class. But to even be remotely usefull as a two weapon fighter, you need those feats that enable you to make the iterative attacks. To even get two weapon fighting, you need a dex of 15, so you are already wasting a point of dexterity bonus. And it gets even worse the higher your dex is.

If you really want to play a badass normal who fights with two weapons, I'd suggest a rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw. Swashbuckler is like a fighter, but with abilities for, well, swashbuckling. And with daring outlaw, he gets sneak attack progression.

If you really want to play a two weapon fighter and swing two weapons while in full plate armor... well um.. I got nothing. Perhaps use a mithril full plate?

What attributes do you have? You'll need to have really godlike dex and strength.

Gwendol

2013-09-28, 04:15 AM

"Worst" in relation to what? It all depends on what your design goals are.

Mystral

2013-09-28, 05:22 AM

Worst in respect to strength of the build.

It's so bad of an idea that the samurai class fullfills the requirements of it better then the fighter itself. The samurai! At least it gives you the two weapon fighter line without you needing to invest in dexterity.

IronFist

2013-09-28, 05:25 AM

OP, see if you can't get Magic Item Compendium added to the books allowed. It's a great book for everyone and it can help you with the Nimbleness armor enchantment (+1 max Dex, -2 ACP) and Gloves of Balanced Hand (gives you TWF or ITWF if you already have TWF).

Come on guys, please read the first post: The only books available are Players handbook 1 & 2, Player's Guide To Faerun and Champions of Valor.

Seriously, every time someone asks for help with something to do with the fighter people rush in to lecture him on how the fighter is bad, and how weak the class is, so send in the Tome of Battle, because blablabla...
The OP likes the Fighter and he wants to play one, so what's the problem?

As for the question: I say go with Luck of Heroes, I thought it only gave the bonus on the saves, but with the added +1 to AC you get more for the feat than just Two-Weapon style (If you change your mind later and want to try a 2-handed weapon those bonuses will still help you out).

Have fun :smallsmile:

This, a hundred times this. Let the man play his fighter.

Also, +1 to Luck of Heroes.

Since Champions of Valor is allowed, there are 2 variant fighters in the book: one is the Darksong Knight, which are followers of a good-aligned drow goddess, and the other is the Zhentarim fighter (from the web enhancement to the book: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a).

Both give some free bonuses to the fighter class in return for the restriction of being a member of either an evil guild (Zhentarim) or a drow group (Elistraee).

If your party has some other members who fight in melee, I'd suggest Combat Reflexes and PHB II's vexing flanker and adaptable flanker, as two-weapon fighters often have a hard time hitting well and those feats' bonuses will help enormously. And picking up two-weapon pounce at Level 6 would be a no-brainer.

Here's a sample build to level 6:
Human Zhentarim fighter 6
Feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting [Ftr]
1: Weapon focus (short sword) [Human]
1: Luck of Heroes
2: Combat reflexes
3: Vexing flanker
3: Skill focus (Intimidate) [Zhentarim Ftr]
4: Weapon specialization [ftr]
6: Improved two-weapon fighting [ftr] (If you have the dex bonus high enough for it - otherwise adaptable flanker or power attack would be good substitutes)
6: Two-weapon pounce
Heed this man's words, because he speaks the truth!!

JoeChip

2013-09-28, 05:45 AM

Two-weapon fighter who wears heavy armor? Historically (IRL, not D&D) those two have not gone together at all. The TWF's of reality were typically light and fast, that's why in D&D you have major penalties for using any sort of heavy sword for TWF.

Speed (IRL) is the name of the game for TWF. It was usually a rapier and a dagger of some sort.

Speed and super heavy armor don't go together. In D&D, I don't think heavy armors hurt TWF, but it's outside of the style, flavor-wise IRL.

But, D&D has only a passing resemblance to real life. If you think TWF and heavy armors go together, then rock on!

As a build, you might want to start it out with two levels of ranger - it gets you a bunch more skill points, better Ref save, the TWF feat, full BAB, and a favored enemy. It's a slightly slower start, if you want to get TWF started as quickly as possible, but it gets you a bunch of other goodies and doesn't drop you behind on Feats once you get past level 4. (assuming you don't count Track as a Feat you want)

No offense but you've basically ignored both the topic of this thread and everything I said I wanted out of this character :smallfrown: I specifically said to think knights of the round table as apposed to the three musketeers because I KNEW people would start suggesting I play as a lightly armored rapier wielding character and that's really NOT what I want to play. I guess I should have been more blunt.

Yeah, I really like the idea of two weapon fighting while wearing heavy armor and D&D lets you TWF in heavy armor without penalties. It's like you said D&D only has a passing resemblance to real life anyway and I don't really care how TWF works or worked IRL. Like I said in my earlier post, I'm going for a medieval fantasy swordsman flavor not a historically accurate one.

Three problems with the ranger levels. I already said I don't want to multi-class. Ranger doesn't really fit the fluff I have in mind for this character. Rangers loose TWF if they wear anything heavier than light armor and I really want heavy armor.

Come on guys, please read the first post: The only books available are Players handbook 1 & 2, Player's Guide To Faerun and Champions of Valor.

Seriously, every time someone asks for help with something to do with the fighter people rush in to lecture him on how the fighter is bad, and how weak the class is, so send in the Tome of Battle, because blablabla...
The OP likes the Fighter and he wants to play one, so what's the problem?

Thank you, I was thinking the same thing.

Gwendol

2013-09-28, 05:58 AM

Go for it! Axe and sword maybe? There is a decent tactical feat you could use if that book gets allowed.

Mystral

2013-09-28, 07:00 AM

As I said, you really need to find a way to get the twf line without much dexterty. Or have very high attribute scores, because you will need super good strength to hit reliably and do enough damage.

Zombimode

2013-09-28, 07:07 AM

Here's a sample build to level 6:
Human Zhentarim fighter 6
Feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting [Ftr]
1: Weapon focus (short sword) [Human]
1: Luck of Heroes
2: Combat reflexes
3: Vexing flanker
3: Skill focus (Intimidate) [Zhentarim Ftr]
4: Weapon specialization [ftr]
6: Improved two-weapon fighting [ftr] (If you have the dex bonus high enough for it - otherwise adaptable flanker or power attack would be good substitutes)
6: Two-weapon pounce

Zentharim Fighter doesn't really do much in this build and it locks the character to be a member of the Zentharim - which is often not desirable for players and DMs alike.

Andezzar

2013-09-28, 07:20 AM

If you go with adaptable flanker, be sure to take EWP Spiked Chain and the Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Variant (not sure if SRD content flies in your group, otherwise it is in Unearthed Arcana). It gets even better if you combine it with the Thug Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug). Now you can flank and thus sneak attack any creature that does not occupy a larger space than your natural reach or is immune to flanking/critical hits, without hiding or needing a flanking buddy. With two-weapon fighting and armor spikes you get even more sneak attacks, I doubt you will have enough feats for that. Lemme see:
DEX>CON>STR>
1:EWP Spiked Chain
Human Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Vexing Flanker
9: Adaptable Flanker
12: Power Attack
15: Two-weapon fighting
18: Improved Two-weapon Fighting

Unfortunately there are not many weapons that are not light, have reach and allow you to use Weapon Finesse, so you will need at least DEX 15 for any TWF feat (dual-wielding without a feat is pretty debilitating) even if you go for STR as your primary attribute. With a more traditional Reach Weapon (Glaive, Longspear etc.) and Armor spikes you could go:
1: Combat Reflexes
B: Vexing Flanker
3: Two-Weapon Fighting
6: Adaptable Flanker
9: Power Attack
12: Improved Two-weapon Fighting (if DEX>16)/Combat Expertise (if not)
15: Greater Two-weapon fighting (If DEX>18)/Improved Trip(if not)
18: Open

Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) may be a good substitute for Combat Expertise/Improved Trip.

If you can get your DM to allow Champions of Ruin, the sister book to CoV, you may want to work Craven into either build.

Without the Sneak attack the builds will do a lot less damage, but at least you (nearly) always get +4 to your attack which can be transformed into extra damage without net penalty.

Drelua

2013-09-28, 11:50 AM

I feel like I should point out that weak is relative. Sure, a heavily armored TWF Fighter is far from that strongest build, but there's a lot of options that are much weaker. If your party's made up of you, a wood elf wizard that only prepares utility spells and uses his feat on MWP: Greatsword, and a monk, you'll probably be the strongest character in the group. I would recommend comparing your character to the other ones you'll be playing with and seeing how you compare. It's no fun being useless, but I get the impression you're probably not playing in a group with a lot of optimization, so you should be fine. I've played a PF Fighter with two weapons and full plate armor back before I knew much of anything about optimization, and it was fun. He was even an elf, and that's still one of my favourite campaigns.

I hope that was actually helpful, unlike my last post. Oh, and Luck of Heroes is definitely the better feat. I take it all the time in NWN, and it doesn't give the AC bonus in that game.

navar100

2013-09-28, 12:16 PM

Come on guys, please read the first post: The only books available are Players handbook 1 & 2, Player's Guide To Faerun and Champions of Valor.

Seriously, every time someone asks for help with something to do with the fighter people rush in to lecture him on how the fighter is bad, and how weak the class is, so send in the Tome of Battle, because blablabla...
The OP likes the Fighter and he wants to play one, so what's the problem?

As for the question: I say go with Luck of Heroes, I thought it only gave the bonus on the saves, but with the added +1 to AC you get more for the feat than just Two-Weapon style (If you change your mind later and want to try a 2-handed weapon those bonuses will still help you out).

Have fun :smallsmile:

Also, the OP wants to play a fighter. Let him play a fighter. Just because colloquial you (not Morphie) may loathe the fighter to kingdom come doesn't mean no one else is allowed to play a single class fighter. If the OP playing a fighter, a two-weapon user at that, is such a bother to you, get over it.

As for the original question, I agree Luck Of Heroes would be the better choice. The saving throw bonus is key, and you always get to use the feat where as Twin Sword Style is situational.

Uhtred

2013-09-28, 12:50 PM

If you're going Knights of the Round Table style, have you looked into maybe using a spiked shield as your off-hand? Since you've got Player's Handbook II on the table, and plenty of feats to burn as a human fighter, and don't want to compromise the concept you have of the character with things like Sneak Attack or Skirmish or the like, that may be a good place to start? With Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter, you're a relatively competent two-weapon fighter whose weapon is also a potent defense. Throw Bashing on it and your shield will deal more damage than your main hand weapon. Throwing and Returning on it and the Shield Sling feat gives you further options without compromising the flavor of the knight.

Gwendol

2013-09-28, 01:12 PM

Or play a Knight...

JoeChip

2013-09-28, 02:11 PM

Two weapon fighter is horrible, so you'd better take luck of heroes.

That might well be about the worst possible way of building a suboptimal fighter I can think of.

If you wear full plate, you are gimping your dexterity bonus to armor class. But to even be remotely usefull as a two weapon fighter, you need those feats that enable you to make the iterative attacks. To even get two weapon fighting, you need a dex of 15, so you are already wasting a point of dexterity bonus. And it gets even worse the higher your dex is.

If you really want to play a badass normal who fights with two weapons, I'd suggest a rogue/swashbuckler with daring outlaw. Swashbuckler is like a fighter, but with abilities for, well, swashbuckling. And with daring outlaw, he gets sneak attack progression.

If you really want to play a two weapon fighter and swing two weapons while in full plate armor... well um.. I got nothing. Perhaps use a mithril full plate?

What attributes do you have? You'll need to have really godlike dex and strength.

Worst in respect to strength of the build.

It's so bad of an idea that the samurai class fullfills the requirements of it better then the fighter itself. The samurai! At least it gives you the two weapon fighter line without you needing to invest in dexterity.

Wow, doom and gloom much? I already said I'm not that worried about optimization. I'm just trying to have a little fun, not win a prize for best built character. It's just that I realized that with a pure fighter I was gonna have a lot of feats. So I wanted to pick one's that are halfway useful as long as they don't violate my character concept to badly. Lighten up.

As for attributes, I haven't rolled any yet. I was just invited to join a new campaign and this was my idea for a character. We won't be playing for a couple of weeks.

I won't be playing a rogue/swashbuckler for reasons I've already given but that mithril full plate sound like a good idea, thanks.

OP, see if you can't get Magic Item Compendium added to the books allowed. It's a great book for everyone and it can help you with the Nimbleness armor enchantment (+1 max Dex, -2 ACP) and Gloves of Balanced Hand (gives you TWF or ITWF if you already have TWF).

This, a hundred times this. Let the man play his fighter.

Also, +1 to Luck of Heroes.

Heed this man's words, because he speaks the truth!!

Thanks for suggesting the Magic Item Compendium. Seems pretty useful, I'll see if I can get it included.

Go for it! Axe and sword maybe? There is a decent tactical feat you could use if that book gets allowed.

I've heard high sword low axe is good. To bad the book its' in isn't allowed. Maybe the DM will make an exception.

Or play a Knight...

I actually seriously considered going with a Knight before deciding on the Fighter. Maybe for my next campaign :smallsmile:

Thank you everyone for your suggestions on Twin Sword vs Luck of Heroes. Everyone seems to agree that LoH is better so I'll either be taking that or a non-regional feat.

WebTiefling

2013-09-28, 06:58 PM

I'm going for a medieval fantasy swordsman flavor not a historically accurate one.

I don't think you're hitting a medieval fantasy swordsman flavor, either. I've never, ever heard of a fantasy swordsman who wore heavy armor AND used TWF. Not in any books or movies, anywhere.

You have the idea, and that's cool, but you said you wanted a fantasy-style TWF and then said you wanted heavy armor. Those are mutually exclusive. If you like the idea, then go for it and don't worry about it not being an existing fantasy concept.

D&D certainly does penalize a TWF and Heavy Armor user as Mystral described. And more stuff to boot. Mystral didn't list nearly all the ways D&D doesn't work well for both heavy armor and TWF.

If you're willing to suck up the penalties to play the concept, then go for it, and just realize that you'll never get anywhere close to being as effective as even a straight Fighter with uninspired Feat selection.

Most of us play those sorts of characters at some point in our gaming.

Darrin

2013-09-28, 09:52 PM

Yeah, I really like the idea of two weapon fighting while wearing heavy armor and D&D lets you TWF in heavy armor without penalties.

This works just fine, so long as you don't get TWF via Ranger. In fact, Greatsword + Full Plate + Armor Spikes/Unarmed Strike on a Fighter chassis can be pretty darned decent.

Any particular weapon preference? With PHBII in play, you have Agile Shield Fighter, Brutal Strike, and Crushing Strike available. You could do Flail + Heavy Shield, both one-handed bashing weapons that work with Power Attack, and the Flail can be used for trip attacks.

Thanks for suggesting the Magic Item Compendium. Seems pretty useful, I'll see if I can get it included.

Gloves of the Balanced Hand was originally printed in Magic of Faerun, which you didn't list among your available sources, but is at least setting-appropriate. (Unfortunately, it was more expensive in MoF... 18000 GP instead of 8000 GP.)

I've heard high sword low axe is good. To bad the book its' in isn't allowed. Maybe the DM will make an exception.

Do you have access to online sources? There are some weapon style feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031205a) posted online from Complete Warrior (but unfortunately not High Sword Low Axe).

Thank you everyone for your suggestions on Twin Sword vs Luck of Heroes. Everyone seems to agree that LoH is better so I'll either be taking that or a non-regional feat.

Dreadful Wrath is extremely worth it.

IronFist

2013-09-29, 04:49 AM

I don't think you're hitting a medieval fantasy swordsman flavor, either. I've never, ever heard of a fantasy swordsman who wore heavy armor AND used TWF. Not in any books or movies, anywhere.
Well, we (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-okEzUU-snbc/T0klJsOyhpI/AAAAAAAAC-8/D6NSmUPYnPg/s320/Athrogate.JPG) have (http://th02.deviantart.net/fs45/150/f/2009/118/9/e/Athrogate_Bwah_ha_ha_ha_by_thethrash87.jpg) Athrogate (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/104912/3308855-athrogate+snort.jpg), from the Drizzt series. Cervantes (http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/soul-calibur-v-cervantes-1.jpg) and Hilde (http://www.renders-graphiques.fr/image/upload/normal/8018_render_hilde.png), from Soul Calibur. Masamune (http://truongton.net/forum/imagehosting/5165784e9fe6c417cee.png), from Sengoku Basara. Gimli (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080318220810/lotr/images/4/43/Gimli.jpg), from Lord of the Rings.
At the sci-fi end of the spectrum: Jango Fett (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/jango_fett01_5546.jpg) from Star Wars and Master Chief (http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/25200000/master-chief-halo-25211141-1024-768.jpg) from Halo.

There's also the thing that weapon + shield is TWF.

JoeChip

2013-10-09, 02:45 PM

Zentharim Fighter doesn't really do much in this build and it locks the character to be a member of the Zentharim - which is often not desirable for players and DMs alike.

Yeah, not really interested in playing a Zent so I'll probably pass on this.

I don't think you're hitting a medieval fantasy swordsman flavor, either. I've never, ever heard of a fantasy swordsman who wore heavy armor AND used TWF. Not in any books or movies, anywhere.

You have the idea, and that's cool, but you said you wanted a fantasy-style TWF and then said you wanted heavy armor. Those are mutually exclusive. If you like the idea, then go for it and don't worry about it not being an existing fantasy concept.

D&D certainly does penalize a TWF and Heavy Armor user as Mystral described. And more stuff to boot. Mystral didn't list nearly all the ways D&D doesn't work well for both heavy armor and TWF.

If you're willing to suck up the penalties to play the concept, then go for it, and just realize that you'll never get anywhere close to being as effective as even a straight Fighter with uninspired Feat selection.

Most of us play those sorts of characters at some point in our gaming.

Brienne from the Game of Thrones tv series fights wielding a longsword and dagger while wearing plate armor.

Gwaine from the Merlin tv series once fought using two longswords while wearing plate armor.

In The Knights of Bretonnia Omnibus by Anthony Reynolds the main character Calard duel wields a bastard sword in one hand and a long sword in the other while wearing full plate armor at one point(and it's totally badass!)

I think there are plenty of examples of fantasy swordsmen who wear heavy armor and fight with two weapons at once.

This works just fine, so long as you don't get TWF via Ranger. In fact, Greatsword + Full Plate + Armor Spikes/Unarmed Strike on a Fighter chassis can be pretty darned decent.

Any particular weapon preference? With PHBII in play, you have Agile Shield Fighter, Brutal Strike, and Crushing Strike available. You could do Flail + Heavy Shield, both one-handed bashing weapons that work with Power Attack, and the Flail can be used for trip attacks.

Gloves of the Balanced Hand was originally printed in Magic of Faerun, which you didn't list among your available sources, but is at least setting-appropriate. (Unfortunately, it was more expensive in MoF... 18000 GP instead of 8000 GP.)

Do you have access to online sources? There are some weapon style feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031205a) posted online from Complete Warrior (but unfortunately not High Sword Low Axe).

Dreadful Wrath is extremely worth it.

I recently stumbled across the Jack B. Quick build that makes use of High Sword Low Axe. I really like it because it both fits the flavor I was going for and seems pretty useful. So my preferred weapons will probably be a longsword and handaxe. To bad that build uses feats not included in the books we're using but the DM might be willing to add some books or a least let in some of the feats I need.

I definitely want those Gloves of the Balanced Hand as well as mithril full plate(preferably with Nimbleness armor enchantment:smallwink:) if the DM will allow them.

Sense Jack B. Quick is such a feat intensive build I'll probably just take a regular feat instead of a regional one if the DM lets me go for that build. If he doesn't I'll probably take luck of heroes and go for something else.

Thank you everyone for your advise!

Gwendol

2013-10-09, 02:49 PM

Sounds like a good build! Best of luck on the fields of battle!

IronFist

2013-10-09, 04:11 PM

Brienne from the Game of Thrones tv series fights wielding a longsword and dagger while wearing plate armor.
She does?! I don't remember that. In the books she uses sword and shield.

Gwaine from the Merlin tv series once fought using two longswords while wearing plate armor.

In The Knights of Bretonnia Omnibus by Anthony Reynolds the main character Calard duel wields a bastard sword in one hand and a long sword in the other while wearing full plate armor at one point(and it's totally badass!)

I think there are plenty of examples of fantasy swordsmen who wear heavy armor.
I mentioned plenty of others in the post above yours. Freaking Gimli dual wields in plate!

Urpriest

2013-10-09, 04:13 PM

I mentioned plenty of others in the post above yours. Freaking Gimli dual wields in plate!

Huh?

He certainly doesn't in the movies. And given Tolkien's historical knowledge, I doubt he would have put renaissance armor in his dark ages-esque setting. Any particular source for the idea that Gimli wears plate?

IronFist

2013-10-09, 04:23 PM

Huh?

He certainly doesn't in the movies. And given Tolkien's historical knowledge, I doubt he would have put renaissance armor in his dark ages-esque setting. Any particular source for the idea that Gimli wears plate?

Chain mail, sorry.

JoeChip

2013-10-09, 06:08 PM

She does?! I don't remember that. In the books she uses sword and shield.

I mentioned plenty of others in the post above yours. Freaking Gimli dual wields in plate!

Here is the scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX2fofPEgD4 I don't remember which episode it's from.

Akal Saris

2013-10-09, 06:42 PM

Well, we (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-okEzUU-snbc/T0klJsOyhpI/AAAAAAAAC-8/D6NSmUPYnPg/s320/Athrogate.JPG) have (http://th02.deviantart.net/fs45/150/f/2009/118/9/e/Athrogate_Bwah_ha_ha_ha_by_thethrash87.jpg) Athrogate (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/104912/3308855-athrogate+snort.jpg), from the Drizzt series. Cervantes (http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/soul-calibur-v-cervantes-1.jpg) and Hilde (http://www.renders-graphiques.fr/image/upload/normal/8018_render_hilde.png), from Soul Calibur. Masamune (http://truongton.net/forum/imagehosting/5165784e9fe6c417cee.png), from Sengoku Basara. Gimli (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080318220810/lotr/images/4/43/Gimli.jpg), from Lord of the Rings.
At the sci-fi end of the spectrum: Jango Fett (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/jango_fett01_5546.jpg) from Star Wars and Master Chief (http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/25200000/master-chief-halo-25211141-1024-768.jpg) from Halo.

There's also the thing that weapon + shield is TWF.

Frankly, any post that has Athrogate, Masamune, Master Chief, and Boba Fett together is going to win me over, regardless of the argument.