Vampire/Paladin

[ZhanStrider]

I'm curious how making a vampire cleric of Pellor could be optimized. What Weapons should be used, what feats to take, how to prevent that whole "sunlight death" thing. Any ideas?

[AutumnLotus]

Both the Vampire template (with its ridiculously high level adjustment and mediocre abilities) and the Paladin class (with its MADness, general weak abilities, and counter-intuitive powers for an undead) make this build rather difficult to optimize.

Might I ask what about this concept that you find interesting? Is it the contrast of being an undead being a holy warrior of justice? What sort of party would this be played in?

EDIT: Noticed you mention Cleric, rather then what your title states. The problem still persists with that +8 LA, though

[Vin Robinson]

+8 LA hurts like nothing else, but you run into a host of other problems trying to combine your class and racial features here. I'm pretty sure draining blood from most things is considered an evil act, and you have aversion to your own holy symbol, and your Lay on Hands can kill you.

What could be interesting is to just build a Paladin normally, and then start taking levels in the Savage Progression here:
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Which doesn't gain full status as Undead or the ability to be destroyed by the sun until later in the eight level class as you become more and more vampire-like. This leaves you room to either grow as a character and decide whether to keep your Paladin nature, or embrace these new changes and then take a level of Blackguard, and BAM you are the baddest mother ever.

Using Paladin as a basis, my absolute favorite thing to do is to do a Harmonious Knight / Paladin of Freedom. This gives you +1 Inspire Courage as a Bard, which is frighteningly easy to optimize. Badge of Valor, Song of the Heart, Masterwork Natural Horn, and then Words of Creation. Bam you are getting +8 to attack and damage, which is also a great fuel for power attack.

Reducing a Paladin's MAD, if Dragon is Allowed I am also quite fond of Serenity(shifts your charisma-based abilities) to Wisdom, and then Insightful Strike which gets your Wisdom to Attack rolls with Simple Weapons. Get 13 Str and 14 Dex, and again grab Power Attack and then Combat Reflexes, get yourself a Longspear and you are in business. It's easy to end up with a 20-22 Wisdom by even low to mid levels. There's a SAD Paladin if I ever saw one.

[ZhanStrider]

Both the Vampire template (with its ridiculously high level adjustment and mediocre abilities) and the Paladin class (with its MADness, general weak abilities, and counter-intuitive powers for an undead) make this build rather difficult to optimize.

Might I ask what about this concept that you find interesting? Is it the contrast of being an undead being a holy warrior of justice? What sort of party would this be played in?

EDIT: Noticed you mention Cleric, rather then what your title states. The problem still persists with that +8 LA, though

Damnit. Its SUPPOSED to be Paladin. my B. It's mostly interesting to me for the undead being a champion for the god of the sun, and also that the idea makes my DM mad but he cant find a reason to say no. he's a secondary character I'm using in his campaign if my first guy dies.

[AutumnLotus]

Well might I ask what materials you are allowed to use, and if dragon magazine material is allowed? And what the party layout is currently. This will help immensely.

[ZhanStrider]

Well might I ask what materials you are allowed to use, and if dragon magazine material is allowed? And what the party layout is currently. This will help immensely.

DMG MM PHB and ToB are what's allowed. Nothing else, yet. The party is currently a monk, a ranger, a fighter(bow) and a Druid.

[Pickford]

I'm curious how making a vampire cleric of Pellor could be optimized. What Weapons should be used, what feats to take, how to prevent that whole "sunlight death" thing. Any ideas?

You have a bigger problem.


Vampires as Characters
Vampires are always evil, which causes characters of certain classes to lose some class abilities, as noted in Chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook. In addition, certain classes take additional penalties.

It goes on to mention the extra problems for Clerics, and Sorcerers and Wizards. But obviously this would be an issue for the requirement that Paladins be Lawful Good. I suppose you could be an Ex-Paladin (Effectively a Fighter without the feats), though that would prevent you from gaining any further Paladin levels, or Blackguard (DMG).

[ShurikVch]

You have a bigger problem.
...
Not so big problem as long as Atonement, Helm of Opposite Alignment or MindrapeSanctify the Wicked are accessible.

But I have (probably) even better idea. Crusader/Paladin went Shadow Sun Ninja, overused Balance of light and dark, turned vampire, then someone ventured into the Iron City of Dis and rescued the paladin's soul.

[Red Fel]

But I have (probably) even better idea. Crusader/Paladin went Shadow Sun Ninja, overused Balance of light and dark, turned vampire, then someone ventured into the Iron City of Dis and rescued the paladin's soul.

Doesn't that just bring you back with your prior class levels? I mean, that's fine for an endgame concept - especially considering that the SSN vampire (if I recall) lacks a sunlight weakness - but unless you somehow fluff that to lose all of the Crusader/Paladin/SSN levels leading into it, you've already got most of your levels spelled out.

That said, echoing what's been said before; even if you have an understanding DM who will let you play a non-evil Vampire, you've shot yourself in the foot severely. You need to commit evil (read: bloodfeeding) to survive, which hurts your class-related abilities. Oh, and your patron deity - Pelor - HATES YOUR GUTS. Remember? Guy who loathes the undead with literally the fiery passion of the sun? He's not going to grant you spells willingly.

Stack on top of that the massive level adjustment and the poor class chassis you're starting with... It's just a really bad combination, both in terms of fluff and in terms of mechanics.

But, on to constructive things: is there a way to do this? I think so, yes.

1: Does the character have to be a Vampire proper? Are there other undead that will suffice? Or perhaps consider a Deathless, which are basically holy not-quite-undead undead?

2: Does the character have to worship Pelor? Could there be another good deity slightly less inclined to introduce you to FLAMING MURDER for the capital offense of living after death? There are plenty of good deities who might fit the bill.

3: Does the character have to be a Paladin/Cleric? There are other noble, chivalrous classes. If you must have casting, Cleric is generally preferable to Paladin, but even then there are other options.

Remember, with divine casters, your patron deity has to NOT HATE YOU. That's kind of important. And Pelor really, REALLY dislikes the undead. You'd have to overcome a lot just to be able to set foot in his temples. If you must play undead, I'd strongly suggest looking into the Deathless race. It gives more of a vibe of "risen to right wrongs" than "risen to feed on the innocent".

[ZhanStrider]

Doesn't that just bring you back with your prior class levels? I mean, that's fine for an endgame concept - especially considering that the SSN vampire (if I recall) lacks a sunlight weakness - but unless you somehow fluff that to lose all of the Crusader/Paladin/SSN levels leading into it, you've already got most of your levels spelled out.

That said, echoing what's been said before; even if you have an understanding DM who will let you play a non-evil Vampire, you've shot yourself in the foot severely. You need to commit evil (read: bloodfeeding) to survive, which hurts your class-related abilities. Oh, and your patron deity - Pelor - HATES YOUR GUTS. Remember? Guy who loathes the undead with literally the fiery passion of the sun? He's not going to grant you spells willingly.

Stack on top of that the massive level adjustment and the poor class chassis you're starting with... It's just a really bad combination, both in terms of fluff and in terms of mechanics.

But, on to constructive things: is there a way to do this? I think so, yes.

1: Does the character have to be a Vampire proper? Are there other undead that will suffice? Or perhaps consider a Deathless, which are basically holy not-quite-undead undead?

2: Does the character have to worship Pelor? Could there be another good deity slightly less inclined to introduce you to FLAMING MURDER for the capital offense of living after death? There are plenty of good deities who might fit the bill.

3: Does the character have to be a Paladin/Cleric? There are other noble, chivalrous classes. If you must have casting, Cleric is generally preferable to Paladin, but even then there are other options.

Remember, with divine casters, your patron deity has to NOT HATE YOU. That's kind of important. And Pelor really, REALLY dislikes the undead. You'd have to overcome a lot just to be able to set foot in his temples. If you must play undead, I'd strongly suggest looking into the Deathless race. It gives more of a vibe of "risen to right wrongs" than "risen to feed on the innocent".

...this is all fair. So say I went nuetral and had a different deity, how would you suggest overcoming the "dies in sunlight" clause?

[Red Fel]

...this is all fair. So say I went nuetral and had a different deity, how would you suggest overcoming the "dies in sunlight" clause?

Well, it sounds to me like you want a Vampire, heroic/chivalrous type, regardless of deity. While I still think that other undead would do better, that's your call.

There are certain ways a character can get protection from sunlight. Ideally, a parasol would be lovely if it worked. But let's say that's out of the question.

While there have probably been other threads on the subject - and I would recommend looking for them - a casual review has brought a few items to my attention.

- Cloak of Dark Power is a Drow spell from 3.0 that protects a character and everything they carry from the effects of full sunlight. That might include vampiric vulnerability. Find a way to permanence it if 3.0 spells are allowed.

- Similarly, Night's Mantle is a 3.0 Cleric spell that allows a sunlight-vulnerable creature to function safely in sunlight. Permanence is a help.

- Endure Sunlight is a feat from Libris Mortis that lets you withstand sunlight for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Cha modifier. It's not a permanent solution, but it allows you to move quickly from place to place if you have to.

- Vampire Lord is a template on top of a regular Vampire, which probably isn't designed for players, but it loses a lot of the Vampire vulnerabilities, including sunlight. A Vampire Lord is not harmed by sunlight, but instead takes -4 penalty to ability scores, attacks, saves, and skill checks while exposed; it cannot use its supernatural powers, but may command those it has already dominated.

- Alternatively, the Nosferatu from Ravenloft can tolerate sunlight.

Just a few ideas. I'd recommend searching for threads on the subject, since a lot of my suggestions are either 3.0 or at least highly situational.

[Gemini476]

You do realize that you want to make a Vampire, a type of undead, who worships Pelor, a god who hates undead?
While I could certainly see it working for a Burning Hate, I-Worship-He-Who-Brings-All-To-Dust interpretation of a follower of Pelor, it does kind of go against everything Pelor stands for.
Although by the rules you could be a Neutral Evil cleric of the concept of an evil Pelor and still get spells (although not from the big P himself).

What level is this for? +8 LA is a killer, and while you could go for the Vampire template class... That's eight levels of not really getting levels.
Oh, and a Paladin 1/Vampire LA+8 has 10+CON HP and is up against guys who do that much damage when they sneeze. A CL10 Fireball does your health as its minimum damage!

[ShurikVch]

Vampire Lord template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)
Relevant post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14826192&postcount=28)
Another one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14826953&postcount=32)

Vampire - fallen Shadow Sun Ninja is immune to sunlight.

A vampiric dragon can survive exposure to direct sunlight for a number of consecutive rounds equal to its age category, after which it is utterly destroyed. So, dragonwrought great wyrm kobold must be safe for 12 turns. He also lacks weakness to water, garlic and mirrors. And LA only +5.

[Firebug]

You might consider asking your DM if he'll allow the Monsters of Faerun book. It has rules for good Liches, ie you don't have to be evil.

[ArcturusV]

Course, part of it is also a level concern. If you're starting at high level, with the requisite WBL (Likely if you're using LA), then knocking back those Alchemical Items from Libris Mortis which give you an hour of sunlight immunity is an option. Expensive though. And as a LA adjusted Paladin you're going to want a lot of magical gear to help you survive adventures with 12 HP where your party members are more likely to have 42+ish. Which is really the killer in this scenario. Though I think too much is being made of the Sunlight Weakness compared to other, also crippling adventurer weaknesses like being unable to enter most buildings, cross water, fended off by anyone with a couple of twigs and berries, and lug around a specific pine box everywhere you go.

Your best option for this really is to take the Vampire Spawn Monster Class from Libris Mortis for 1 level. Which doesn't carry the "Always Evil" tag of the Monster Manual Template by the way. You don't get all the powers, you do get all the crippling flaws however. But you won't be eating 8 LA, so you won't fall into that point where you only have 1/4th the HP of your average teammates. The only real downside with that is that Paladins want.... more levels of Paladin. Almost all their features are keyed off "Levels of Paladin", after all.

If you wanted a more interesting thing? Well I did just kitbash a version of the Vampire Monster Class up. Link is in my signature. If your DM is willing, go ahead and try it out. Taking 3 levels (Maybe four for Vampiric Resilience II) of that, then going into Paladin will provide you with only minor weaknesses from your Vampiric Nature, minor vampiric powers (Including some stat boosts that a MAD Paladin would appreciate), and will still let you pick up a lot of Paladin Levels later on. If you do, let me know how it played out as I am trying to collect Playtest data for it.

You could end up taking your cue from say... Nathaniel... crap forgot the last name from... Blood Oath, and be very much a Vampiric Paladin in concept, backstory, and execution.