A thought about goats

[CletusMusashi]

The following is a Terry Pratchett quote from "Small Gods."

"Goats are intelligent and need to be led, while sheep are stupid and must be driven. How much different would this religion be if it were started by a goatherd and not a shepherd?"

Please note, the statement is about a religion that exists only in the Discworld series. Any similarities, perceived or otherwise, to actual religions are outside the topic of this discussion.

However, the "good shepherd" leading his flock of people is certainly a well-established trope. One might say that pre-vampirism Durkon, for example, was a good example of a shepherd character. Roy... maybe not so much.

The Order of the Stick is not composed of sheep. It is composed of diverse personalities who can be distracted by many different things. Only Roy holds them together, and he does it by focusing on them as a group of individuals, rather than trying to march them in unison.

This makes it completely brilliant that the reason he didn't take horseback riding in school was that he opted for Goat Herding 101.

[Forikroder]

thanks... for sharing... i guess?

[Bird]

The goat herding also helps Roy with other assorted problems the Order experiences, such as when Durkon tries to assert dominance by head-butting Elan, Vaarsuvius coming down with foot-and-mouth disease, or Belkar trying to eat tin cans and plastic bags. Halflings always do that.

[CletusMusashi]

I think the head-butting would be more of a Belkar-handling technique.

Elan would be the one trying to eat plastic bags.

V is a special case. The reason he wanders off so much is that Roy was never trained for half-camels.

[The_Weirdo]

Okay, who else came here only for the title and for the name Cletus Musashi?

[Copperdragon]

Please note, the statement is about a religion that exists only in the Discworld series. Any similarities, perceived or otherwise, to actual religions are outside the topic of this discussion.

No, it is not. You cannot separate something that explicitly is there to be an allegory about a RL religion from that said RL religion. The quote you gave is simply about that religion. It's a joke but it also is a serious philosophical stab at something that exists but by bringing this here - Pratchett is really great at doing those allegories and does them in full conscience of what he is doing - you are talking about RL religions.
I think you simply cannot bring a metaphor that is about cars and then claim you want to talk about everything but cars.

Apart from that I am not sure how a Discworld religion that exists within Discworld and not the OotSverse has an impact or relevance in the OotSverse. We know the religions of the characters involved, none of which is a "shepherd religion" (or "goatherd religion", if you want).

Durkon was not a shepherd, he kills and smashes too much for it. Roy is as a-religious as it can get in a world with existing, active gods and beyond that, we know he was brought up with the northern gods. Durkula now is tied to a concept than an actual god, Haley and Elan are also northerners but do not seem very active to workship any god (in case of Elan he worships the one he invented himself).
Belkar surely is in no way related nor interested in "Shepherding" (or getting shepherded and also not goated), if anything, he is evil.

You're opening a very interesting debate but I do not really see where it has ties into OotS (and I see many ties that explicitly are not wanted here OR that are not forbidden but that don't really relate to the characters at all as OotS has simply nothing that resembles what Pratchett was writing about - being a D&D-Setting, you always have the violence that is an issue, even if some gods seem to do some shepherding (the Dark One, but I see him to be more like a goatherder)).

[DaggerPen]

No, it is not. You cannot separate something that explicitly is there to be an allegory about a RL religion from that said RL religion. The quote you gave is simply about that religion. It's a joke but it also is a serious philosophical stab at something that exists but by bringing this here - Pratchett is really great at doing those allegories and does them in full conscience of what he is doing - you are talking about RL religions.
I think you simply cannot bring a metaphor that is about cars and then claim you want to talk about everything but cars.

Apart from that I am not sure how a Discworld religion that exists within Discworld and not the OotSverse has an impact or relevance in the OotSverse. We know the religions of the characters involved, none of which is a "shepherd religion" (or "goatherd religion", if you want).

Durkon was not a shepherd, he kills and smashes too much for it. Roy is as a-religious as it can get in a world with existing, active gods and beyond that, we know he was brought up with the northern gods. Durkula now is tied to a concept than an actual god, Haley and Elan are also northerners but do not seem very active to workship any god (in case of Elan he worships the one he invented himself).
Belkar surely is in no way related nor interested in "Shepherding" (or getting shepherded and also not goated), if anything, he is evil.

You're opening a very interesting debate but I do not really see where it has ties into OotS (and I see many ties that explicitly are not wanted here OR that are not forbidden but that don't really relate to the characters at all as OotS has simply nothing that resembles what Pratchett was writing about - being a D&D-Setting, you always have the violence that is an issue, even if some gods seem to do some shepherding (the Dark One, but I see him to be more like a goatherder)).

I'm... fairly certain that the OP simply wanted to suggest that herding goats is more akin to herding cats than to herding sheep - e.g., herding a group of individuals loath to cooperate vs. a group where the members fall readily into cooperation - and that keeping the Order in line is very much like herding goats, making it fitting. Pre-vamping Durkon, meanwhile, seemed to do well at taking charge of groups where the individuals readily behaved as one unit - the bandit camp, etc. - but really can't keep the Order in line. The Terry Pratchett quote is a quote that outlines the difference in herding sheep vs. herding goats, but includes a reference to a fictional religion that is in turn a reference to some real religions that the OP probably did not really want involved in the discussion, so OP put in a disclaimer that the quote is more about the dynamics of "herding" different groups and why Roy taking goat herding may be a cute nod to his comparatively effective handling of the Order.

[Copperdragon]

I'm... fairly certain that the OP simply wanted to suggest...

Yes, I got that. But as I outlined I disagree this has relevance in OotS, as the allegory does not really fit the characters beyond very broad strokes (where basically everything fits) and that, on a meta-level, you simply cannot separate this quote from what it is meant to be by the original author and as such have a very, very big elephant in the room. That's all I say, and that's only my very personal opinion.

[marq]

Yes, I got that. But as I outlined I disagree this has relevance in OotS, as the allegory does not really fit the characters beyond very broad strokes (where basically everything fits) and that, on a meta-level, you simply cannot separate this quote from what it is meant to be by the original author and as such have a very, very big elephant in the room. That's all I say, and that's only my very personal opinion.

...what?

I think the OP was just saying that Roy taking goat herding 101 was a subtle joke that the rest of OOTS is like goats.

[Copperdragon]

I think the OP was just saying that Roy taking goat herding 101 was a subtle joke that the rest of OOTS is like goats.

Roy is an able leader due to him herding goats once in his life? I do not really sound convinced... but good this is settled now.

[Clistenes]

I'm... fairly certain that the OP simply wanted to suggest that herding goats is more akin to herding cats than to herding sheep - e.g., herding a group of individuals loath to cooperate vs. a group where the members fall readily into cooperation - and that keeping the Order in line is very much like herding goats, making it fitting. Pre-vamping Durkon, meanwhile, seemed to do well at taking charge of groups where the individuals readily behaved as one unit - the bandit camp, etc. - but really can't keep the Order in line. The Terry Pratchett quote is a quote that outlines the difference in herding sheep vs. herding goats, but includes a reference to a fictional religion that is in turn a reference to some real religions that the OP probably did not really want involved in the discussion, so OP put in a disclaimer that the quote is more about the dynamics of "herding" different groups and why Roy taking goat herding may be a cute nod to his comparatively effective handling of the Order.

Goats are browsers (unlike sheep, that are grazers), so once they start eating, they spread around in search of tasty bushes instead of keeping a tight group.

A shepherd who wants to guide a flock of sheep only needs to make his dog scare them from the opposite direction he wants them to walk, and they will move as a group. A goatherd, on the other hand, needs to round the goats into a group before starting to move, so they need to be sort of trained to follow his lead: The goatherds usually keep a trained dominant male that follows them as pet would do, and the rest of the goats follow the dominant male; dogs are made to chase those who stray away.

[martianmister]

Okay, who else came here only for the title and for the name Cletus Musashi?

I came for goats.

[sengmeng]

I came for goats.

I came to see what a guy named Cletus had to say about goats.

[DiamondHooHaMan]

I came to see what a guy named Cletus had to say about goats.

I came for the goats. I stayed for the words of Cletus.

[Orm-Embar]

Goats are browsers (unlike sheep, that are grazers), so once they start eating, they spread around in search of tasty bushes instead of keeping a tight group.

A shepherd who wants to guide a flock of sheep only needs to make his dog scare them from the opposite direction he wants them to walk, and they will move as a group. A goatherd, on the other hand, needs to round the goats into a group before starting to move, so they need to be sort of trained to follow his lead: The goatherds usually keep a trained dominant male that follows them as pet would do, and the rest of the goats follow the dominant male; dogs are made to chase those who stray away.

So Roy needs a dog. The parallels with Thog continue to pile up.