BBEG help

[Somensjev]

i want to make a level 10 to 15 BBEG that is designed for level 17-20 characters to fight

i want him to only use as much cheese as i'd allow my players to use (pretty much only disqualifies punpun, ice assassin of an aleax of you, shapechange into a zodar, and a couple others)

i dont really have a plan for the character yet or anything, so possible ideas would also be appreciated

[Emperor Tippy]

So you want a BBEG that doesn't have access to 9th level spells and yet can stand against a party with access to 9th level spells?

Unless the party sucks pretty badly that means either fairly extreme cheese.

CR 15 that can hand most ECL 17-20 parties their heads is doable but ECL 15 that can do the same thing is only doable if the PC's mess up and/or are low op or the BBEG gets to bring the cheese.

[Somensjev]

So you want a BBEG that doesn't have access to 9th level spells and yet can stand against a party with access to 9th level spells?

Unless the party sucks pretty badly that means either fairly extreme cheese.

CR 15 that can hand most ECL 17-20 parties their heads is doable but ECL 15 that can do the same thing is only doable if the PC's mess up and/or are low op or the BBEG gets to bring the cheese.

they're not very good at op-fu (i'm not very good either though), so there's no problem there, they're the kind of people who take something because it looks cool (i'm slowly changing that)

i want this BBEG to be a viable threat to them, and then tell them he's anywhere from 2-10 levels below them, so they'll at least listen to me when i try offering some help

[Red Fel]

So, wait... You want to force your characters to optimize more than they would otherwise want to... by designing a boss below their CR who can kick their butts?

That doesn't say "You guys need to optimize or else," to me. That says "I'm going to tell you how to play your players, and if you don't play them how I tell you I can kill your guys with a kobold."

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

... Oh, wait, yes I am. :smallmad:

[Emperor Tippy]

Gray Elf Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Rogue 6

Take Font of Power for most of your feats.

Use scrolls of Persistent Wraithstrike, Persistent Greater Invisibility, Persistent Lesser Ironguard, Persistent Divine Favor, Persistent Favor of the Martyr, Persistent Foresight, and Persistent Selective Anti-Magic Field set to exclude the BBEG.

Use Celerity to go first if you don't with initiative (you should win Initiative). Get within melee range of your foe, use Cunning Strike combined with Assassins Stance and Rogue 7 along with the feat Craven and Inferno Blade from a Desert Wind Cloak and Cunning Insight for Int to Damage (and Shadow Blade to add Dex to damage). Use Cunning Surge to get another standard action to attack the next PC, again spend points on Cunning Strike and Cunning Insight. Repeat until you are down to 3 IP or out of PC's.

At 3 IP use a scroll of greater teleport to retreat to your moon base to rest up.

Make sure that you use Thinaun weaponry so that they can't be resurrected.

That should work against low op PC's in the ECL 17-20 range.

For extra fun, arrive at their location via a Wish while they are asleep.

[Somensjev]

So, wait... You want to force your characters to optimize more than they would otherwise want to... by designing a boss below their CR who can kick their butts?

That doesn't say "You guys need to optimize or else," to me. That says "I'm going to tell you how to play your players, and if you don't play them how I tell you I can kill your guys with a kobold."

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

... Oh, wait, yes I am. :smallmad:

the point is, they want more powerful characters, but never accept outside help when making them, then they complain that the monsters, of an appropriate or lower CR than is recommended, are too powerful

so i'm making a BBEG, that is a lower level than them, that can at least stand a good chance against them, so that they know there are ways to have stronger characters, as opposed to their clerics of pelor who do nothing but heal, and their wizards who never use anything but fireball

[Emperor Tippy]

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10

Persistent Selective Antimagic Field, Persistent Selective Lesser Ironguard.

Starts combat with an Orb of Fire that has benefited from the Maximize, Searing, Twin, Energy Admixture, Chain, Fell Drain, Invisible, Energy Substitution, Sanctum, Co-operative, Easy Meta: Chain, Easy Meta: Maximize, Easy Meta: Twin, Easy Meta: Energy Admixture, and Arcane Thesis metamagic feats.

Kill the whole party in one standard action. To add insult to injury, throw on Nonlethal Substitution.

[Somensjev]

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10

Persistent Selective Antimagic Field, Persistent Selective Lesser Ironguard.

Starts combat with an Orb of Fire that has benefited from the Maximize, Searing, Twin, Energy Admixture, Chain, Fell Drain, Invisible, Energy Substitution, Sanctum, Co-operative, Easy Meta: Chain, Easy Meta: Maximize, Easy Meta: Twin, Easy Meta: Energy Admixture, and Arcane Thesis metamagic feats.

Kill the whole party in one standard action. To add insult to injury, throw on Nonlethal Substitution.

tippy, as awesome as the builds are, is it possible for you to avoid killing them outright? (or at least wait ten rounds first)

[Emperor Tippy]

tippy, as awesome as the builds are, is it possible for you to avoid killing them outright? (or at least wait ten rounds first)

Give the Factotum a merciful weapon. Have the Incantatrix use Nonlethal Substitution.

The PC's are now unconscious instead of dead.

The BBEG's can also just use a Persistent Ghostform as well and then just stand there for ten rounds laughing at the PC's futile attempts to do anything at all to him before slaughtering them.

[Taveena]

That's what Nonlethal Substitution is for. I'd recommend screwing around with Save-or-Sucks for ten rounds if you want to stall. Just... leave them utterly screwed over. Flesh to Stone could be fun if you deliberately avoided shattering them. Hell, just try to petrify everyone save one person who has to drag the statues back to town to have someone undo it.

[Somensjev]

Give the Factotum a merciful weapon. Have the Incantatrix use Nonlethal Substitution.

The PC's are now unconscious instead of dead.

The BBEG's can also just use a Persistent Ghostform as well and then just stand there for ten rounds laughing at the PC's futile attempts to do anything at all to him before slaughtering them.

these are just evil, but pretty awesome, and i guess it is the BBEG, they'll probably enjoy torturing the party

[johnbragg]

the point is, they want more powerful characters, but never accept outside help when making them, then they complain that the monsters, of an appropriate or lower CR than is recommended, are too powerful

so i'm making a BBEG, that is a lower level than them, that can at least stand a good chance against them, so that they know there are ways to have stronger characters, as opposed to their clerics of pelor who do nothing but heal, and their wizards who never use anything but fireball

Maybe they consider anything outside of Core cheesy?

If they're already level 17-20, it's going to be hard to torment them with creative opponents without it looking like the opponents are just tough because of their stats. An atypically smart Ogre named "Pofessarr" with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and a dire flail could have rocked their world at maybe level 9.

I think near-epic levels is too late to be teaching characters completely new approaches to adventuring, storywise.

EDIT: MAybe throw an optimized level 12, core-only party at them. Maybe mirror their classes?

[Somensjev]

Maybe they consider anything outside of Core cheesy?

If they're already level 17-20, it's going to be hard to torment them with creative opponents without it looking like the opponents are just tough because of their stats. An atypically smart Ogre named "Pofessarr" with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and a dire flail could have rocked their world at maybe level 9.

I think near-epic levels is too late to be teaching characters completely new approaches to adventuring, storywise.

they dont know what cheese is, and most of them dont like the players handbook, i'm glad that most of them at least understand that monks are (usually) bad

they're not at level 20, or anywhere close, we havent started the campaign, because they always get distracted whenever we start playing a campaign

i thought it might be more effective when they feel they could accomplish most things, but lower leveled builds would also be appreciated

[Red Fel]

the point is, they want more powerful characters, but never accept outside help when making them, then they complain that the monsters, of an appropriate or lower CR than is recommended, are too powerful

so i'm making a BBEG, that is a lower level than them, that can at least stand a good chance against them, so that they know there are ways to have stronger characters, as opposed to their clerics of pelor who do nothing but heal, and their wizards who never use anything but fireball

Again, this doesn't make sense.

They want powerful characters, but won't accept advice as to how to make their characters more powerful. That's fine; that's player stubbornness. I can see your frustration there.

But then they complain that monsters "of an appropriate or lower CR than is recommended" are too powerful... So your solution is to give them a lower-CR monster that is WAY too powerful?

I appreciate from your responses to Tippy's... Tippiness... that you don't want to kill them outright. But it seems you're just trying a ramped-up version of stuff that hasn't worked in the past. If they didn't want to beef up because weaker monsters were too hard, they won't want to do it because a weaker monster is near-lethally hard.

And worse, whereas other encounters being "too hard" falls on them as bad players, if this thing goes south - and it will - it falls on you for being heavy-handed.

I think it's probably more important that you take them aside OOCly, and ask them, upfront, why they are so opposed to making their characters effective enough to handle CR-appropriate encounters. If they are hell-bent on remaining as they are, it leaves you with two choices. You could put the campaign on safety rails, guaranteeing low-CR encounters and low-risk to the PCs, or you could throw in the towel.

What I don't recommend is what you're suggesting - ramping up the difficulty in an attempt to "teach the players the error of their ways." I don't see any happy feelings resulting from that.

Tell me which of these two scenarios is more likely:

1:
- DM: The Wizard's Orb detonates. Everyone make your saves... you fail. You all die.
- Players: Wow, that was tough! I guess we should all make better characters and think more carefully about our build decisions, huh?

Or 2:
- DM: The Wizard's Orb detonates. Everyone make your saves... you fail. You all die.
- Players: What the crap, man? How many freaking metamagic feats were on that thing? What the heck was the point of that? This sucks! You suck! That was crap! I quit! Other exclamations!

Or maybe your players are just very, very mellow and understanding. Anything's possible, I suppose.

[Somensjev]

1:
- DM: The Wizard's Orb detonates. Everyone make your saves... you fail. You all die.
- Players: Wow, that was tough! I guess we should all make better characters and think more carefully about our build decisions, huh?

Or 2:
- DM: The Wizard's Orb detonates. Everyone make your saves... you fail. You all die.
- Players: What the crap, man? How many freaking metamagic feats were on that thing? What the heck was the point of that? This sucks! You suck! That was crap! I quit! Other exclamations!

Or maybe your players are just very, very mellow and understanding. Anything's possible, I suppose.

honestly, it'd probably be something like this

3:
- DM: The Wizard's Orb detonates. Everyone make your saves... you fail. You all die.
- Players: I DEMAND A REMATCH!!

however, i appreciate the advice

edit: actually, i could see this happening too

4:
-DM: The Wizard's Orb detonates. Everyone make your saves... you fail. You all die.
- Players: how did he do that, i wanna do it, HOW DID HE DO IT!!

[Khatoblepas]

Killing your PCs is the worst idea I have ever seen.

You don't want to overwhelm your party with power. You only teach them that the only solution to problems is a larger hammer.

If the cleric only heals and the wizard only uses fireball, that's because those are spells that have worked for them in the past. Present them with situations where another spell would work better, give them scrolls of spells so that they don't have to pre-empt your scenarios. Have NPCs ask for certain useful spells if they get stuck, and if the players don't have them, have them do a little quest for them. Players need a little coaxing to come out of their shell and be a little bit more creative with their solutions. Killing their characters won't do jack for that.

Really this would have worked better 17 levels ago. Tutorialise your first missions. Otherwise they have almost got to epic levels without learning anything.

[johnbragg]

they dont know what cheese is, and most of them dont like the players handbook, i'm glad that most of them at least understand that monks are (usually) bad

they're not at level 20, or anywhere close, we havent started the campaign, because they always get distracted whenever we start playing a campaign

i thought it might be more effective when they feel they could accomplish most things, but lower leveled builds would also be appreciated

So start them at low levels. Let them have a generous method for rolling stats. Start them with double wealth and let them shop for magic items. Then kick their asses with low-level stuff using good tactics, or a little bit of optimization. Then the monsters take them prisoner, and either take their stuff or make them actually earn it.

5th level characters vs a house full of animated objects because of an accident involving Positive Energy Plane research, and the PCs have to recover the book the guy was using for the Great Library of McGuffinia.

1st, 2nd level characters vs hobgoblin Fighter and Barbarian 1's and 2's using the good feats. Stuff that has the same number of hit points they do, same number of levels they do, but, as Charlie Sheen would put it, planned better.

Torture them with a mid-level Druidzilla, who whenever the party gets the advantage, wildshapes into a snake with a crazy Hide bonus after beatin on them with Natural Spells.

[Tim Proctor]

Without cheesing it, I would look at the gold aspect first, because that doesn't matter what class the BBEG has.

The best way to make lots of gold for literally doing nothing except an initial investment is Businesses from the DMGII.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305070 (Guide to Running a Business)

Once you've established that he can have a whole lot of money, he can afford all those spellcasting benefits on him, those wish spells, etc. Without doing any cheese regarding chain gating wishes. Once he has the gear all you need to do is pick a powerful build (I suggest summoner type so that the action economy doesn't work against him).