[3.5] Hellborn - Does Dragonborn Overwrite Hellbred?

[Red Fel]

Okay. Here's an interesting little inquiry.

First, take the Hellbred race from Fiendish Codex II. This is a very flavorful race with some very interesting abilities.

Next, take the Dragonborn template from Races of the Dragon. This is also very flavorful, with very interesting abilities, but rebirth as a Dragonborn also removes certain aspects of the base race. I have seen a few threads mentioning this issue, but I haven't seen one addressing this question specifically: Which Hellbred traits stay, and which ones go?

Here's what my thoughts are, but I admit I could use some clarity:
- Type and Subtype: These are explicitly retained by the Dragonborn template.
- Infernal Mien: This is a skill bonus. This is explicitly lost by the Dragonborn template.
- Evil Exception: This is... a thing. I suppose it's sort of like a spell-like ability? If so, it is lost by the Dragonborn template, but I'm not clear.
- Hellbound: Like Evil Exception, it's a very unusual thing, but possibly lost by the Dragonborn template. In fact, I've read a number of threads pointing this out, and justifying it as an in-your-face from Bahamut to Asmodeus.
- Devil's Favor: This is a bonus feat. This is explicitly lost by the Dragonborn template.
- Infernal Aspect: This is complicated. The Body aspect gets a bonus to saves against poison, bonus feats, and ability scores. The Spirit aspect gets a bonus to Sense Motive checks, improved vision and telepathy, and ability scores. Here's the issue: Save bonuses, bonus feats, and skill bonuses are all explicitly lost by the Dragonborn template. Ability scores are explicitly retained. Vision is not explicitly addressed. But these ability scores are not the flat, racial ability scores that most races get; they are a function of Infernal Aspect. If Infernal Aspect is lost, are these also lost?
- Languages and Favored Class: These are explicitly retained.
Here's the bottom line. Almost all of the functions of Hellbred are either explicitly or probably lost by Dragonborn. This may even include the ability scores; it's unclear. The two questions are: What is lost? And if everything, is there any point, from a purely mechanical perspective, to playing a Dragonborn Hellbred?

[RogueDM]

Yeah, from the looks of it you would lose just about everything, excepting Subtype, changing from Hellbred to Dragonborn. I would, were I DMing this, axe the ability modifier from Infernal Aspect as its not innate to all Hellbred, but rather a portion of an "Other Racial Trait".

The only mechanical reason to take this route would be for the Hellbred subtype... which gets you almost nothing. Still humanoid and I can't think of anything off-hand worthwhile that requires it.

Would provide some great fluff though, as the climax of a Hellbred's road to redemption perhaps.

[Red Fel]

It occurs to me that one good thing mechanically is the loss of Hellbound. It means you can be raised normally, which is a plus.

And I agree, flavorwise, it's like a double-helping of second chances.

[jedipilot24]

Yup.
A Dragonborn Hellbred is basically Bahamut giving the finger to Asmodeus and the Pact Primeval.

[Darrin]

Ability scores are explicitly retained. Vision is not explicitly addressed. But these ability scores are not the flat, racial ability scores that most races get; they are a function of Infernal Aspect. If Infernal Aspect is lost, are these also lost?


Ability scores are retained. These scores were established when the Hellbred was created. I prefer to think of this as an instantaneous effect of the Scourging, which has already happened. At least, that's the way I've always seen it played. And yes, they're not flat racial scores given to every member of the race, but then we have a couple dozen different flavors of elven subraces with different ability score adjustments, so it's not like every race must have a universal "default" adjustment.

[Kane0]

Yup.
A Dragonborn Hellbred is basically Bahamut giving the finger to Asmodeus and the Pact Primeval.

While also giving the hellbred what they actually want, some form of redemption.

Good guy Bahamut.

[Red Fel]

Ability scores are retained. These scores were established when the Hellbred was created. I prefer to think of this as an instantaneous effect of the Scourging, which has already happened. At least, that's the way I've always seen it played. And yes, they're not flat racial scores given to every member of the race, but then we have a couple dozen different flavors of elven subraces with different ability score adjustments, so it's not like every race must have a universal "default" adjustment.

So, in other words, they're still ability scores, you still retain one of the two choices. That makes sense.

But do you lose the associated benefits? It makes sense that you'd lose the Body benefits, since those are feats and a save. But part of the Spirit package includes vision, which isn't expressly dealt with in the Dragonborn template. Specifically, the template says:

You lose all other racial traits of your original race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses,save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth. However, it makes exceptions for size, speed and modes of movement, Powerful Build, and so forth. Would that also include vision?

[Darrin]

But do you lose the associated benefits? It makes sense that you'd lose the Body benefits, since those are feats and a save. But part of the Spirit package includes vision, which isn't expressly dealt with in the Dragonborn template. Specifically, the template says:
However, it makes exceptions for size, speed and modes of movement, Powerful Build, and so forth. Would that also include vision?

Vision would be lost. The Dragonborn text doesn't mention it as an exception, so however it is that your race got augmented vision, you lose it. If you want better vision, there's a Dragonborn Aspect that does exactly that.

[Red Fel]

Vision would be lost. The Dragonborn text doesn't mention it as an exception, so however it is that your race got augmented vision, you lose it. If you want better vision, there's a Dragonborn Aspect that does exactly that.

Pity. So it really does seem that all Hellbred retains through the template is flavor, a choice of ability scores, and some minor aesthetic features.

Still, flavor is worth something, I suppose.

[Zombulian]

Well I mean, not a complete loss of bonuses mechanically. Looking at the cheesy side of things, couldn't you DCS your bonus feats from Hellbred before you become redeemed as a Dragonborn?
Unless even after DCS they count as racial bonus feats, in which case you'd lose them anyway.

[Red Fel]

Well I mean, not a complete loss of bonuses mechanically. Looking at the cheesy side of things, couldn't you DCS your bonus feats from Hellbred before you become redeemed as a Dragonborn?
Unless even after DCS they count as racial bonus feats, in which case you'd lose them anyway.

Since they're bonus feats that come from race, pretty sure they're racial bonus feats. Further, the Devil-Touched Feats from Hellbred require the Devil's Favor, which is the Hellbred starting bonus feat; you lose the prerequisite once you become Dragonborn. And I don't think Shun the Dark Chaos will work either, since I'm pretty sure Devil-Touched feats aren't Abyssal Heritor feats.

[lunar2]

Since they're bonus feats that come from race, pretty sure they're racial bonus feats. Further, the Devil-Touched Feats from Hellbred require the Devil's Favor, which is the Hellbred starting bonus feat; you lose the prerequisite once you become Dragonborn. And I don't think Shun the Dark Chaos will work either, since I'm pretty sure Devil-Touched feats aren't Abyssal Heritor feats.

dark chaos shuffle is a two step process though. first you embrace the dark chaos, trading away your unwanted feats for abyssal heritor feats, then you shun the dark chaos for the feats of your choice. but since we're going the cheesy route anyway, no, they aren't the feats listed in your race description, so they aren't your racial bonus feats anymore.

[Red Fel]

dark chaos shuffle is a two step process though. first you embrace the dark chaos, trading away your unwanted feats for abyssal heritor feats, then you shun the dark chaos for the feats of your choice. but since we're going the cheesy route anyway, no, they aren't the feats listed in your race description, so they aren't your racial bonus feats anymore.

Ooh, valid point.

But this assumes that dark chaos shuffle is available before the character takes Dragonborn. Given that both spells are level 8, that's quite a long time, and I find it unlikely that a low-level PC will find a high-level NPC willing to give them basically free feats. So either you take the Dragonborn template much, much later, or you skip DCS altogether.

[Psyren]

The loss of Hellbound is, both mechanically and story-wise, a good reason to do this.

Beyond that, I just wanted to pop in and comment on how cool the name "Hellborn" sounds :smalltongue:

[IronFist]

The loss of Hellbound is, both mechanically and story-wise, a good reason to do this.

Beyond that, I just wanted to pop in and comment on how cool the name "Hellborn" sounds :smalltongue:

Funny thing: I have a friend whose surname is Hellborn.

[Red Fel]

The loss of Hellbound is, both mechanically and story-wise, a good reason to do this.

Beyond that, I just wanted to pop in and comment on how cool the name "Hellborn" sounds :smalltongue:

I know, right? Seriously, you can do it with so many races (Warborn, Mongrelborn, etc.) but somehow Hellborn just sounds way cooler.