PDA

View Full Version : Are Rocks Overpowered?



Nerd-o-rama
2006-12-28, 11:56 PM
Hi, I played Scissors in a recent campaign, and noticed that another player (playing a Rock) totally powered through encounters that were an even challenge for me, and of course, you all know what happens when Rock faces Scissors in an arena campaign.

Paper's fine, though.

***

Seriously, people, the "is <class> over/underpowered" threads are getting old and extremely redundant. Some classes can do some things better than others. Some classes can do a lot of things very well, even, particularly primary casters. But everything has its place, and nothing's so lame as to be unplayable. Well, no base classes except in the worst sourcebooks that few people talk about. Not even Warlocks are unplayable.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-28, 11:58 PM
Your MOM's completely unplayable.
(Seriously, low-level Expert? C'mon, no way.)

Oh, and rocks are totally oerpowered. That Fall (Ex): everyone dies attack? Broken!

Emperor Tippy
2006-12-29, 12:01 AM
Warlocks may be playable but I'm not so sure about the CW Samurai or the ninja.

bosssmiley
2006-12-29, 12:01 AM
Rocks just have a high natural AC due to their hardness. Their touch AC is nerfed thanks to their poor Dex, so use rays and other ranged touch attacks on them.

(I'll see your parody and raise you a poker-faced fix within the RAW)

Fhaolan
2006-12-29, 12:04 AM
I just have to add this:

http://www.umop.com/rps101.htm

:smallbiggrin:

Dhavaer
2006-12-29, 12:05 AM
Rocks have hardness, which is pretty damn good. Not a lot of other things have that, it's mostly DR, energy resistance or nothing. It still doesn't make up for the fact that they can't take actions.
Remember, actions are the most important resource.

krossbow
2006-12-29, 12:17 AM
bah; adamantine scissors, now THOSE are overpowered.

Avenger337
2006-12-29, 12:39 AM
Warlocks may be playable but I'm not so sure about the CW Samurai or the ninja.

I've seen both of them played rather successfully, actually.

Amotis
2006-12-29, 12:44 AM
Your MOM's completely unplayable.
(Seriously, low-level Expert? C'mon, no way.)

Oh, and rocks are totally oerpowered. That Fall (Ex): everyone dies attack? Broken!


You're mom's face is completely unplayable.

Seriously...were you expecting meaningful discussion of your grievance? D&D is a game, so people will debate about it no matter if you like it or not.

RoboticSheeple
2006-12-29, 12:49 AM
What is unplayable about a ninja?

Nerd-o-rama
2006-12-29, 12:53 AM
You're mom's face is completely unplayable.

Seriously...were you expecting meaningful discussion of your grievance? D&D is a game, so people will debate about it no matter if you like it or not.
No. I just got tired of seeing the same argument repeated everywhere, and vented by being silly and sarcastic. I'm good now.

Maybe this board needs a stickied discussion about class balance though. It seems a popular enough topic.

Emperor Tippy
2006-12-29, 12:53 AM
...

please, please tell me that you are being sarcastic

Nerd-o-rama
2006-12-29, 12:55 AM
I'm curious, too. Other than MAD and having to know exactly how all your abilities interact with each other, it's not bad. Not as good as a Rogue, but better to take for 20 levels.

Zincorium
2006-12-29, 12:56 AM
What is unplayable about a ninja?

I wouldn't say unplayable (you could, theoretically, play even a commoner) but it is in the category of uncompetitive (also referred to by some as 'teh suck').

Depending on the individual campaign, a ninja might be perfectly fine, slightly weak, or useful only for setting off traps that the rogue is too lazy to find and balancing out the party's wealth by level through constant resurrections. I advise finding a campaign like the first one if you want to play a ninja.

Logic
2006-12-29, 01:01 AM
Oh, and rocks are totally oerpowered. That Fall (Ex): everyone dies attack? Broken!
Exactly.

PaperCut (Ex) can't even begin to compare.

Jerthanis
2006-12-29, 01:01 AM
I was in a campaign where a low level expert was a PC. One of his expert skills included Use magic device and he had a gun, so he wasn't your average expert for sure, but he contributed. Oddly, we also had a Warlock in that same campaign, and in the "mirror" campaign (it was interesting, we played two different points of view within a setting, alternating between the characters each week, playing both those who were part of the system, and those who were the unfortunate cast offs of the system) There was a C.W. Samurai and a Miniatures handbook Healer...

Somehow that campaign just happened to be a showcase of terrible classes.

In any case, I don't think anyone who argues anything on this forum really means to be derogatory towards any individual classes... except for CW Samurai, which really is THAT bad... they just see a problem with certain classes and feel the need to let people (often people who ask) know what they think about those classes. I don't think anyone really thinks it's a "good" aspect of the system that they see imbalance, and I don't think anyone would object to a rebuilding of certain aspects to allow for Fighters to mechanically excel at the things their description seems to indicate. While people tend to let their blood get hot over this issue, it's not in truth that we disagree, we are simply seeing the picture from a different point of view, and we all think she's smiling at us.

In any case, what should we talk about instead?

The experience of playing D&D varies extremely widely according to who the DM is. For example, one DM I play with has perhaps one battle per session of extremely high level of difficulty, which always take place in extremely wide, open areas on the tactical map, even if the fight is taking place inside. When I ran a D&D game a while back I used terrain issues like walls, rubble and fights with spacial limitations. Another DM I play with sends us up against almost nothing but Humans with a handful of Rogue or Wizard class levels. The experience is radically different in each case, so remember how different your experiences might be from another person's.

Avenger337
2006-12-29, 01:14 AM
...

please, please tell me that you are being sarcastic

I don't know whether to apologize for having seen a useful ninja or feel bad for you that you haven't.

vanyell
2006-12-29, 02:54 AM
sorry, when I read this thread, I thought this would be a discussion on the insane hulking hurler build that deals 7k+ damage with a large rock.

my bad

MandibleBones
2006-12-29, 03:12 AM
sorry, when I read this thread, I thought this would be a discussion on the insane hulking hurler build that deals 7k+ damage with a large rock.

You too? I thought I was the only one.

Pegasos989
2006-12-29, 03:23 AM
The thing is, that there are two equally big things in DnD - roleplaying and mechanics. (Actually, based on PHB, I would say mechanics is 90% but most of us boost that aspect up a little)

Roleplaying is hard to talk about. I won't go posting everything about my current character here and start debating how effective it is roleplaying wise.

As that leaves us to mostly talk about mechanics and combat side, class balance is a huge part of it.

I think that the conversations aren't even started by those agreeing on the facts anymore but by occasional person shouting something like "Clerics are balanced because they should only act as heal bitches!" or "Wizards are balanced because they have less hp!" in which case they are proven wrong - a conversation taking long time because people refuse to accept that they could have been wrong.

paigeoliver
2006-12-29, 05:01 AM
I have one player who is in love with the oriental classes. In our (quite large) campaign he has a monk, a samurai, AND a ninja.

They never even seem to compare to the characters with normal classes. It doesn't help much that he plays melee characters like they are Elven wizards with 6 CON, but he his non-oriental melee characters do just fine, even with his play style.

I haven't really gotten through to him that concepts don't always equal certain classes and the cool pictures in the books don't always mean your character will be cool if they take that prestige class or feat. It isn't even that he is role-playing rather than roll-playing. He is TRYING to powergame, but doing it badly.

Example is his half-orc barbarian. Only 5th or 6th level, yet has blind fight, monkey grip, and instantaneous rage as feats already.

The Ninja is a halfling, wastes lots of rounds in combat tumbling away from his enemies and drinking potions to improve his armor class. He is THE warrior in a group of spell casters, yet he gets almost none of the kills.

The (dwarf, with 6 cha) samurai he wants to take into dread pirate. Always select your prestige class by the name, never mind that you have a 6 in the primary stat of the class and the other class features you get are ones you already have.

I just talked him out of making a bard and then taking him into vigilante. Yes that is an entry point to the class, but vigilante gains a separate bard spell progression, he would be like a wizard/sorceror, except without the advantage of good spells. Nothing like a 9th level character who is down 3 BAB, and whose most powerful spell is a second level bard spell with a DC of 14.

Sorry for getting off track there. :smallsmile:

Pegasos989
2006-12-29, 05:06 AM
Hehe. I would say that it tells about the player more than about the classes. :D

But yeah. I know the type that tries to powergame but sucks in it really, really badly...

paigeoliver
2006-12-29, 05:49 AM
Yeah, he is one of the primary reasons why I want to go back to Rules Cyclopedia/BECMI D&D. It is nearly impossible to create a "worthless" character in that system. Of course I had to do my own errata to the thieve's skill table in that system. I can't believe they published the thief class in that system unchanged for 15 years without anyone noticing that thieve's were essentially incapable of using their own class abilities until they hit the mid-teens in level. I'll fork that bit in another thread though.

Fizban
2006-12-29, 06:06 AM
Anyone else loving the irony of the progression? From threads on optimizing classes to threads about how so and so class is overpowered to threads on how to "balance" so and so class to threads about threads about so and so class being overpowered. Ok, so it's not really irony, but whatever it is, I'm loving it.

Ebonwoulfe
2006-12-29, 08:54 AM
I dunno, I think I'd still play a rock instead of a samurai.

Bears With Lasers
2006-12-29, 08:56 AM
Personally, I find that a one-level dip into Samurai makes a rock much more impressive.

Pegasos989
2006-12-29, 09:13 AM
Personally, I find that a one-level dip into Samurai makes a rock much more impressive.

Chameleon PrC lets rock emulate scissors too, if you allow such.

pestilenceawaits
2006-12-29, 09:59 AM
I have noticed that the campaign or style of makes more of a difference on whether a class is playable or not than many other factors. for example if the party consistently faces undead then rogues are not very helpful since sneak attack is useless. There are certain classes that fit certain campaigns better the DMs need to work with the players to find the best fit. if you play in a city type intrigue game fighters with low social stats will be less useful. I can see a way to make any class fun and playable if you put some effort into it.

Telonius
2006-12-29, 10:21 AM
Hmm, rock wizard. Would Stoneskin stack?

Pegasos989
2006-12-29, 10:24 AM
Hmm, rock wizard. Would Stoneskin stack?

I think so, because it gives DR and being rock means you have hardness. Both are passed with adamantium scissors, though.

Thrawn183
2006-12-29, 10:34 AM
Honor dictates I admit to being the third person that thought this post was about the hulking hurler build.

Oh, and paper is the sux0rz.

Ebonwoulfe
2006-12-29, 11:02 AM
If you are paper in a party with at least a pen and an oragami master, your build is almost overpowered.

I know lots of people don't want to play a pen, but if you get the new book "Complete Mightier than the Sword" you will have access to such prestige classes as Red Ink, Blue Ink, and Clicky Top. They make a great fifth character.

Penguinizer
2006-12-29, 11:16 AM
sorry, when I read this thread, I thought this would be a discussion on the insane hulking hurler build that deals 7k+ damage with a large rock.

my bad
I think they passed into millions or trillions of damage with a rock for the hulking hurler build.

Still, its human nature to complain at something and think its more powerful than what you play.

Beleriphon
2006-12-29, 12:20 PM
If you are paper in a party with at least a pen and an oragami master, your build is almost overpowered.

I know lots of people don't want to play a pen, but if you get the new book "Complete Mightier than the Sword" you will have access to such prestige classes as Red Ink, Blue Ink, and Clicky Top. They make a great fifth character.

Actually I prefer the Fountain Tip PrC, the spray ink special feature is particularly entertaining to use on blot monsters, combined with the Felt Tipped race and you have a winner.

:biggrin:

Nerd-o-rama
2006-12-29, 12:38 PM
In case anyone was curious, this topic was inspired by a quote from the World of Warcraft forums that summarizes balance arguments in MMORPGs quite well:

"I'm paper. Rock is fine. Nerf scissors."

Just wanted to give credit where it was due.

GoC
2008-03-18, 11:15 AM
Honor dictates I admit to being the third person that thought this post was about the hulking hurler build.

Am I the only person who thought it was about the shrink item/rock trick?:smallconfused:

Rutee
2008-03-18, 11:23 AM
WTF? Is today Necro Post day? That's like, 3 necro'd threads, at least..

Charity
2008-03-18, 11:27 AM
Ressurecting ancient threads is frowned upon here GoC.... awaiting locking sequence.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 11:49 AM
I haven't seen this thread back when it first appeared, so it was a good and hilarious read for me.

ColdBrew
2008-03-18, 11:49 AM
I think they passed into millions or trillions of damage with a rock for the hulking hurler build.
*ahem* quadrillions

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 12:00 PM
Bah. Raw power is nothing compared to the sheer versatility of paper. You can even write entire RPG systems on that, just you try that with stone!

Paper is so obviously stronger than rock that it's not even funny.

Pie Guy
2008-03-18, 12:09 PM
Bah. Raw power is nothing compared to the sheer versatility of paper. You can even write entire RPG systems on that, just you try that with stone!

Paper is so obviously stronger than rock that it's not even funny.

Your're group is a party of rocks. Out in the wilderness, something begins to follow you. Your leaders dismiss it as paranoia. Not to be trusted. Suddenly, the beast pounces with intense fury! The last words you here are "OMFG! The paper found us!" And thus your petty existence ends.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 12:11 PM
Sometimes I don't like the Pen class that much because their mechanics tends to lead players into metamaging and cheatery.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-03-18, 01:19 PM
Gah! My creation has returned as a foul zombie!

Rebuke undead! Return to me my minion!

Well, at least this made me smile with memory of the loltastic responses my thread generated. And Frosty, Pen is totally overpowered. It's better than Sword at damn near everything.

But yeah, this needs a lock like I need a drink.

lumberofdabeast
2008-03-18, 01:34 PM
Wait, why should it be locked again? Because it's old? If that's reason enough, why isn't every topic locked after X time has passed? The way I see it, bumping an old topic is fine, as long as the bumper has something meaningful to contribute. And, to my mind, the great Pen/Sword debate will be well worth the bump.

Sword is great, for one burst. But it just can't match the long-term power of Pen. Pen is for thinkers, Sword is for doers.

SoD
2008-03-18, 01:58 PM
I found myself reading this and thinking I hope this is someone having a laugh at everyone else...otherwise I'm really confused...

Rutee
2008-03-18, 02:14 PM
Wait, why should it be locked again? Because it's old? If that's reason enough, why isn't every topic locked after X time has passed? The way I see it, bumping an old topic is fine, as long as the bumper has something meaningful to contribute. And, to my mind, the great Pen/Sword debate will be well worth the bump.


Thread Necromancy. It's ooold, but that's not why ti's locked; It's old and unrefered to for almost 3 months. Locking everything old like that would be annoying.

bugsysservant
2008-03-18, 02:23 PM
Thread Necromancy. It's ooold, but that's not why ti's locked; It's old and unrefered to for almost 3 months. Locking everything old like that would be annoying.

Three months? The last post before its unholy resurrection was in 2006. But yeah, at some point old threads have to die, or be restarted, or they become circular and pointless.

By the way, GoC, how did you even find this thread? Its REALLY old.

Aquillion
2008-03-18, 02:29 PM
The trick is to focus on TWF so you can use both rock and scissors at once. Then you go IotSV for seven levels so you can throw up two sheets of paper as a free action and you're gold.

Alternatively, one word: Foresight. Time Regression works too, if you want to be really cheap, but it costs XP.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-03-18, 02:32 PM
Three months? The last post before its unholy resurrection was in 2006. But yeah, at some point old threads have to die, or be restarted, or they become circular and pointless.

By the way, GoC, how did you even find this thread? Its REALLY old.

Maybe by searching all threads started by Nerd-o-rama? If you enjoy sarcasm I bet he's has some great post for you.


Am I the only person who thought it was about the shrink item/rock trick?:smallconfused:
I'm afraid you are:smallfrown:, sorry.

brian c
2008-03-18, 02:43 PM
When I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about the rocks from "rocks fall, everybody dies" being overpowered. It's a valid claim.

Zincorium
2008-03-18, 02:52 PM
Sometimes I don't like the Pen class that much because their mechanics tends to lead players into metamaging and cheatery.

Half of that is because they're arbitrarily higher powered than the Sword class, which is a holdover from previous editions when pens took more experience to advance and had drawbacks for writing and sketching.

I'm also getting tired of explaining to new people the fact that a pen can always win due to it's ability to write declarations of war, which makes it worth multiple swords, and put down a bloody good sonnet which wins social encounters.

I think they should reduce the font list for pens in 4th edition, or at least take away the flourishes.

GoC
2008-03-18, 03:03 PM
WTF? Is today Necro Post day? That's like, 3 necro'd threads, at least..

It was an accident I swear!:smallfrown:
I always open lot's of threads and then respond to them, I didn't notice that I'd been reading an old thread.:smallfrown:

Fiery Diamond
2008-03-18, 03:06 PM
I have to cast my vote for Pen being the mightiest of them all. Especially if you get ink per encounter instead of per day.

About Necro, I still don't get the reason for locking necro'd threads. Is it somehow worse to be able to see all the humor from the past than to start anew with the same topic and not get all the pleasure? (because once a thread is neglected for so long, new threads on the same topic aren't locked, if I understand correctly. It's only if the threads are still going that it's bad to make a replica. *sarcasm* Oh, that makes sense. *sarcasm*)

-Fiery Diamond

AKA_Bait
2008-03-18, 04:20 PM
About Necro, I still don't get the reason for locking necro'd threads.

Going by what some Mod friends of mine have said, pulling up really old threads, or letting them run too long, can cause problems in system. I'd be surprised if it's anything about the content of old but unlocked threads.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 04:28 PM
Thread Necromancy. It's ooold, but that's not why ti's locked; It's old and unrefered to for almost 3 months. Locking everything old like that would be annoying.

Okay, so cut/paste the last ten remarks to a new thread. Same story. A funny thread that's old is neverthelesss till funny.

Oh, and that RPS101 link was awesome <g>

sonofzeal
2008-03-18, 04:51 PM
Am I the only person who thought it was about the shrink item/rock trick?:smallconfused:
I'll second that myself.

Studoku
2008-03-18, 05:08 PM
If you are paper in a party with at least a pen and an oragami master, your build is almost overpowered.

I know lots of people don't want to play a pen, but if you get the new book "Complete Mightier than the Sword" you will have access to such prestige classes as Red Ink, Blue Ink, and Clicky Top. They make a great fifth character.

As long as you don't make the mistake I did. I took the Cheap Biro prestige class.

Cruiser1
2008-03-18, 05:17 PM
Oh, and rocks are totally oerpowered. That Fall (Ex): everyone dies attack? Broken!

Paper's "New Character Sheet (Ex)" recovers from "Rocks Fall (Ex)" and most every other attack easily. About the only thing Paper has to worry about is Scissors' "DM says this build is way overpowered and cuts your character sheet in half and tells you to stop being such a munchkin (Ex)" action. :smallwink:

Roland St. Jude
2008-03-18, 05:20 PM
Sheriff: Thread Necromancy is not allowed. Please see the Forum Rules for more detail. Thanks.