Anti-PC Thread - Class Based Strategies

[StryderH]

This threads purpose is to devise strategies specifically for taking down PC and NPC type characters based on their class.

The discussion below will be taken into consideration then I will edit this first post with new strategies and info for each class. I would like to start off with specific strategies for taking down a member of each core class. Barbarians, Clerics, Pallys, etc.

Let's assume assailant level is not important.

The strategies themselves should be the most specifically overkill strategies possible exploiting every single weakness of a class, and trying to guard against every strength of that class.

Paladin - The first step of taking down a Paladin as efficiently as possible actually has to do with the roleplay value that his beliefs bring to the story. If you can somehow make it evil and immoral for the paladin to attack you, well he can't attack you. "If you touch me a bunch of villagers are rigged to explode" sorta thing. You have to emphasize that it's not your choice that makes attacking you evil, but rather there will be evil happenings if he attacks you. Don't say "I will blow them up if you touch me", say "They will blow up if you touch me."

Via this strategy the paladin should be useless. They'll either attack you and lose their powers, or they'll be unable to attack you.

This strategy only works if you have some leverage or some way of talking to the paladin though (Not to mention DM discretion). If you're outright evil you may need to out-battle a paladin.

Still working on Paladin battle strategy

Rouge - Not yet decided

Sorcerer - Not yet decided

Bard - Not yet decided

Barbarian - Not yet decided

Fighter - Not yet decided

etc...

As I said I will be editing this first post and organizing it a little better later on

[StryderH]

Strategy talk:

I'm making this thread because one NPC is trying to actually come up with a batman-esque contingency plan for every one of the members of his party.

The biggest tank is the Paladin, and the highest DPS is the sorcerer.

To take care of the paladin I was assuming there could be some sort of way to cut him off from his holy-deity powers. Forcefully change his alignment or something. I don't know much about paladins, so tell me how yours have died in the past!

[OldTrees1]

For the Paladin(Superman) there are a few options that Batman has used:
1) It is immoral to interfere with me. Batman placed a bomb that would kill someone if Superman touched Batman.
2) Kryptonite interference(The code of conduct)

However a dragon strafing with a breath weapon would do well enough against the Tank.

Damage resistance is the contingency vs DPS

Oh and most of those have a low save. Use a save or lose targeting that save?

[Story]

1) It is immoral to interfere with me. Batman placed a bomb that would kill someone if Superman touched Batman.


I don't think that would fly in most ethical systems. In fact the CoC requires that the Paladin punish this joker for threatening innocents.

[bekeleven]

The biggest weakness of the paladin is being a tier 5 martial melee class. The standard build to get around this is an ubercharger with a flying mount, which doesn't sound like a tanky build. For that reason, fly and hit him with reflex save-or-sucks like entangle, and you'll have the paladin mitigated or out of your hair. If his charisma-to-saves is high enough, you can attack through ranged damage (Orbs), or use no-save-just-sucks like forcecage and walls.

The sorcerer's weakness depends hard on his build and level. For low to mid levels, for instance, grappling will often work. Having a high-size brute or good summon spells lets you exploit it. Failing that, avoiding line of effect will keep them out of your hair. No sorcerer takes See Invisibility as a spell known, so check if he has a wand of it. A Sorcerer tends to have a high base will, high con, but little dex, so target reflex or AC. Touch or flat-footed if possible (invisibility again).

The biggest issue with going toe to toe with a party is action economy. You want to split them, or you want mooks of your own to eat their actions (and hopefully do some damage or something). For instance, there are a lot of 2- or 3-round combos that can shut down a character with a very high chance of success, but if you're being wailed on by 4 guys you won't live to perform them.

[OldTrees1]

I don't think that would fly in most ethical systems. In fact the CoC requires that the Paladin punish this joker for threatening innocents.

Wait, CoC requires that the Paladin detonate a bomb that would only ever go off if the Paladin detonated it?

[Ravenica]

Lawful Stupid for the win then I guess?

[Urpriest]

Damage resistance is the contingency vs DPS



Damage resistance is generally a terrible idea vs. DPS, unless they're the "make lots of tiny attacks" kind.

On the other hand, it's a great strategy vs. tanks. A decent chunk of DR and your "tank" Paladin likely won't be able to do anything but stand there and look pretty.

For the DPS-focused Sorceror, grab a Ring of Evasion and some save-boosters for Ref-save based spells, and Friendly Fire for Orbs and other ranged touch attacks.

[rainstorm]

For the rogue, staying 30+ feet away at all times prevents him/her from using sneak attacks. Some kind of flight spell can accomplish this since you can stay out of a rogue's range and I'm pretty sure being in the air makes it really hard for you to be flanked :smallsmile:.

Another rogue's strength is use magic device, so perhaps spell resistance or some kind of silencing spell would work (I don't remember how casting from wands/scrolls works...).

Since you'll be in the air, you'll need some good ranged attacks or spells, preferably spells that don't allow reflex saves.

[OldTrees1]

Damage resistance is generally a terrible idea vs. DPS, unless they're the "make lots of tiny attacks" kind.

On the other hand, it's a great strategy vs. tanks. A decent chunk of DR and your "tank" Paladin likely won't be able to do anything but stand there and look pretty.

For the DPS-focused Sorceror, grab a Ring of Evasion and some save-boosters for Ref-save based spells, and Friendly Fire for Orbs and other ranged touch attacks.

Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance are 2 of forms of Damage Resistance along with Hardness
(Yes I was assuming the lots of medium attacks [quicken spell, arcane fusion] rather than the single big attack)

[ArcturusV]

Fighter, and barbarian have such similar weaknesses typically (As well as potentially fighter), that you can lump them together. In particular, terrain. Choosing where to fight generally means that you can win. If they have to deal with things like squeezing, difficult terrain, and/or you having cover and concealment... they're screwed.

Of course, depending on who that NPC is, they may or may not have the ability to create these conditions on demand.

Really when it comes down to it, their strengths are:

Being in Melee where they can do as much/more damage than most casters in pure HP damage.

Making you target my Fort Save/AC as those are my best defenses.

Their weaknesses are:

Not being in melee.

Having almost no defense against Touch AC attacks, or attacks against Reflex saves (Almost guaranteed to have a lower Dex, capped by armor if nothing else, and none of them have a good Reflex save. Paladin MIGHT have a decent Will save as they need wisdom).

Combine this with standard "Battlefield Control" and AoE doom. If you're of an evil persuasion... none of those classes are likely to have ranks in Tumble so you can put out walls of minions for them to be slowed down by while you plink them with everything from Fireballs to Lightning Bolts or even Magic Missiles. Sure your minions will die... but who cares? They're sold in 24 packs anyway.

The Rogue, presuming you meant Rogue and not rouge, is the opposite really. With their stat arrays they will often have decent Will saves and great Reflex saves, harder to hit Touch ACs but normal ACs that are near the mark anyway. They want crowded, difficult terrain as that gives them places to hide and set up ambushes, and prevents them from getting swarmed and beat down, which is the last thing they want.

Oddly a simple easy bet for dealing with the rogue? Send two hulking bruisers (He might sneak attack kill just one) and grapple him unto death. Bonus points if said bruisers are Skeletons (Rogues almost never have a blunt weapon), Golems, or otherwise immune to sneak attacks.

Wizards have two big weaknesses. 1) They suck at Improv. 2) They take hits like a 15 year old school girl. This means taking them down is usually a matter of surprise and ambush, and either overwhelming firepower in that surprise round, or a disable that they aren't prepared for going off right away. Your worst case scenario is that they know who you are, and when you are coming. If that's the case? Just write off the plan and go home to think up something else, you're not going to win.

Clerics and Rangers are harder to deal with. They have the advantages of both Wizards and Fighter/Barbarian/Paladins, but lack a lot of the crippling weaknesses. A ranger will excel when he determines how a battle goes. An has some similar desires tactically to both the Rogue and the Fighter. The bigger weakness is, that he's more MAD than the Rogue will probably be easier to hit with physical attacks than the Rogue typically is. But with the advantage of magic comes a lot of power and utility. Definitely one of your bigger threats.

Same with Clerics. If they know you're coming (And since they have the cheapest, lowest level, most reliably divinations, probably more likely to), you might as well just go home. Unlike wizards though the Cleric played Tight End in Varisty Football and won't go down like a potato. Attrition is your friend here. If you can set up a series of traps and ambushes to wear away his powers, he becomes basically a less effective Fighter. And most Clerics are kinda foolish and don't realize how bad that actually is. It's easy to goad them into going onwards even when they are almost out of spells, special powers, and in real danger of being taken down. Making clerics lose their head, that's your goal.

I haven't had to take on too many Bards to really know how to handle them. Druids are... well... you just don't really find optimal positions to take them down. Too many tricks in their bag. Just be thankful that most druid players (If your groups are like mine) don't seem to realize even half the things they can do...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Standard Save-Or-Lose and Save-And-Lose spells are fairly obvious. 1st level spells are Wall of Smoke (F), Grease (R), and Color Spray (W). 2nd level spells are Web (R) and Glitterdust (W). 3rd level spells are Stinking Cloud (F) and Slow (W). 4th level spells are Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. You should get the idea. Fell Drain spells like Power Word: Pain and Black Tentacles are pretty much always going to kill everything by dealing a negative level every round. Web or Black Tentacles plus Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist is good versus multiple opponents.

Target opponents' weakest saves. It's usually not obvious what a given opponent's class is on first glance, but here's a good method of identifying what save to target:


Any spellcaster tell (spell component pouch, holy symbol/divine focus): Always good Will, good Fort if divine, this overrides anything below. Often poor Reflex, poor Fort if arcane and unarmored.
Any medium/heavy armor and/or two-handed martial weapon: Always good Fort, almost always poor Reflex, usually poor Will. The exception is the Knight, who gets poor Fort/Reflex and good Will, he's easy to spot as he'll be MMO-style Taunting everyone, don't count on killing him with HP damage.
Dual-wielding and/or primarily uses a bow: Always good Reflex, almost always poor Will, Fort is poor if they're sneak attacking, good if they're not sneak attacking, there are some exceptions but Will is a safe bet.
Natural attacks and/or unarmed strikes: Either good Fort and poor Will or good Will and poor Fort, Reflex depends on armor (heavy/medium poor, light/none good unless a Psychic Warrior). The exception is a Monk, just don't let him start his turn adjacent to anyone.
For monstrous opponents with class levels, you'll have to estimate what their good saves are based on racial HD type and how many HD they have (find out the HD by asking the Knowledge DCs, racial HD is always DC-10), combined with the class tells above.
Don't forget about racial bonuses, Dwarves get bonuses vs both poison and spells, Elves get a bonus vs enchantment, etc.


Once an opponent is sufficiently nerfed beyond usefulness, you can deal the necessary damage to kill them.

[Runestar]

No-save spells like maze (pre-hit with quickened dimension anchor), force cage, and irresistible dance (delivered via arcane reach) can shut down any character not equipped to deal with them.

[Psyren]

Damage Reduction and Energy Resistance are 2 of forms of Damage Resistance along with Hardness
(Yes I was assuming the lots of medium attacks [quicken spell, arcane fusion] rather than the single big attack)

Note that in 3.5, the energy resistance route doesn't help - energy resistance is per round, so lots of little attacks can overwhelm it just as easily as one big one.

PF changed it to be per attack, like DR.

[Telonius]

Any martial class: Rust monsters.

Rogue: Crit-immune creatures (undead, constructs, plants, etc), Fortification armor. They have ways of getting around this, thanks to Weapon Crystals; but unless they happen to have the right crystal for the occasion, they'll have trouble.

Bard: Silence spell.

Cleric: Sunder or steal their Holy Symbol, and hope they don't have Summon Holy Symbol prepared.

Arcane Spellcaster: Assume he isn't actually playing a Batman wizard. (If he is, get a bigger Wizard). Silence works as a low-level solution. Grappling can also work (assuming that the enemy gets close enough to be an issue). Higher-level fun: Polymorph Any Object. Change their clothes into a set of Mountain Plate. Follow it up with a Quickened Silence spell. 100% failure chance for any spell with a verbal component, and 60% failure for spells with a somatic component.

Ranged Combatant: Wind Wall.

[Story]

Any martial class: Rust monsters.


Totemist and Unarmed Swordsage say hi/

[AntiTrust]

Does the notes for wizards generally apply to the psion as well, and while I bring that up what about the other psionic classes

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Does the notes for wizards generally apply to the psion as well, and while I bring that up what about the other psionic classes

Psionic characters are a bit harder to shut down than casters, since they don't have any verbal, somatic, or material components, so silence, grappling/immobilization, and destroying their spell components/divine focus don't work. However, most have poor Fort saves, so Wall of Smoke and Stinking Cloud will still prevent them from manifesting. Any effect that causes blindness, namely cloud effects, will also prevent them from having line of sight to their potential targets, which also (mostly) shuts them down. They tend to use Share Pain: Psicrystal and Vigor to make it extremely difficult to kill them with HP damage, so hit them with a targeted dispel and then beat them up as hard as you can.

[Venger]

1) It is immoral to interfere with me. Batman placed a bomb that would kill someone if Superman touched Batman.



I don't think that would fly in most ethical systems. In fact the CoC requires that the Paladin punish this joker for threatening innocents.

The most important part of this (man of steel #3) is that what batman neglected to tell superman until the end of the issue was that the bomb batman had rigged was going to blow him up, so no innocent people were ever really in danger

[StryderH]

I like the whole idea of taking down a paladin via roleplay and making it immoral for him to attack you. I think I will set up two different sections under paladin. One for roleplay and one for battle. The roleplay wouldn't work if you were outright evil because the paladin could just attack you.

If you were good or neutral and had to just not be attacked by the paladin that whole "attacking me is evil" thing is great

[Story]

Don't say "I will blow them up if you touch me", say "They will blow up if you touch me."

If you were responsible for setting up the bombs, then it's the same thing and the paladin has to attack you.

[StryderH]

If you were responsible for setting up the bombs, then it's the same thing and the paladin has to attack you.

No you misunderstand : )

[3WhiteFox3]

I like the whole idea of taking down a paladin via roleplay and making it immoral for him to attack you. I think I will set up two different sections under paladin. One for roleplay and one for battle. The roleplay wouldn't work if you were outright evil because the paladin could just attack you.

If you were good or neutral and had to just not be attacked by the paladin that whole "attacking me is evil" thing is great

The fact that you are apparently endangering lives will often be enough for the paladin to just kill you anyway, since he doesn't fall until afterwards. And there is no guarentee that he will fall (this is one of those tricky situations that will vary from DM to DM) Also you have to remember that Paladins are not necessarily as anti-killing as superman they are soldiers, if they think that you present a legitimate threat to innocents or are forcing them to choose an evil act, they may very well decide to just end you anyway.

Not to mention the fact that phis strategy probably relies on making the crusading, evil-killing tank whose completely devoted to good very angry, I'd suggest trying something else first.

Also Paladins have enough troubles as it is, don't be a jerk to them.

[ArcturusV]

Pretty much. Here's how a Paladin would deal with that situation, and avoid falling if the DM isn't dead set on it happening and will listen to reason.

Bad Guy: Ah ah ah! Stop right there. I have spellbombed 50 random, innocent civilians in this city, and if you strike me dead my apprentices well set off those bombs!

Paladin: ... SMITE EVIL! *strikes him dead*

DM: Okay, you fall for endangering civilians.

Paladin: He set this up before hand. Meaning he was either A) Going to do it anyway. Or B) Bluffing and didn't actually kill anyone. C) With him dead I could try to find the apprentices to stop their plan before he can order the death of those civilians. The fact that he was smote meant he was Evil, and clearly willing to threaten others to try to get a Paladin to do something against the cause of Justice. I did the only conscionable thing by killing him, preventing him from doing this again, and again, and just killing those people as soon as he was safely out of my reach.

DM: ... well... crap.

[Trickquestion]

If you are looking at killing a party as a whole, I would believe a villain prone to Batman-style planning would think less about monsters and more about traps and psychology. A party that stays together and employs teamwork will overcome most combat challenges of appropriate level, and just slugging them with monsters with way higher stats just strikes me as bad DMing.

As such, a cunning villain would first wage extensive psychological war on his targets. If any of them have family, endanger them physically or economically (but don't kill them unless you specifically need to make the hero enraged at you) to make the party member question their commitment to adventuring. Disrupt their sleeping patterns, launching hit and run attacks anytime they bunker down for the night. Stalk them from a distance, and randomly murder innocent civilians in the towns they stop in, possibly in ways that cast suspicion on the party. Get them doubting themselves and each other.

Then, once they are ragged and paranoid, arrange a trap for them at a battlefield of your choosing. Stuff it to the gills with traps, Tomb of Horrors style, as well as few choice monsters that can do the conquering once the environment has divided them.

[Ghost Nappa]

If you are looking at killing a party as a whole, I would believe a villain prone to Batman-style planning would think less about monsters and more about traps and psychology.


Disrupt their sleeping patterns, launching hit and run attacks anytime they bunker down for the night. Stalk them from a distance, and randomly murder innocent civilians in the towns they stop in, possibly in ways that cast suspicion on the party. Get them doubting themselves and each other.

Then, once they are ragged and paranoid, arrange a trap for them at a battlefield of your choosing. Stuff it to the gills with traps, Tomb of Horrors style, as well as few choice monsters that can do the conquering once the environment has divided them.

Split the party. If you can't beat them as they are, you have to force Spellcasters to fire EVERYTHING they have. Once they are running on empty, you can't let them rest. Once they rest they get back all their spell slots. If you keep them separate from any fighters, rogues, etc. they have no one to protect them for them to get back their spell slots and it becomes a matter of just whittling down their d4's.

Melee fighters can easily be fought at range and while they have high health and strength, they have few tricks and are easy to banish to another plain.

Ranged fighters can have their main source of damage blocked by Protection from Arrows. They will probably carry a melee weapon but they will do less damage and have fewer tricks than their melee brethren.

Bards have fewer spells and less powerful ones than other arcane casters, but they have more health and are by and have any number of options for fighting back. Perhaps most importantly, are their skills of persuasion. A really high Sense Motive is important because otherwise they can make you indifferent to their existence. They don't have Level 7 to Level 9 Spell Slots but they have a couple of really good Level 6 Slot Spells and a good number of tricks to deafen and screw with you in return.

Druids are HARD to beat: they get to wear armor, shapechange to whatever animal form they wish, an animal companion, divine spellcasting, and have a LOT of options available to them. Split them and any animal buddies, then burn the Druid's spell slots through attrition.

(Also in true Batman fashion, you have to include how to beat the Batman.)

[Novawurmson]

For PF, probably the class that DMs request help with taking down is the Gunslinger. A few hints:

-Make sure to read over the firearms (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/firearms.html) section in detail, especially misfires and range increments.

-Have opponents drop prone as a free action for a quick +4 to AC vs. ranged attacks.

-For melee, keep the Gunslinger threatened - ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, and loading the gun provokes an attack of opportunity.

-The gunslinger typically dumps Strength, making them vulnerable to combat maneuvers despite their full BAB. Disarm, Grapple, and Dirty Trick (Blind) are all especially good, but Sunder, Trip, and Drag can work, too. Gunslingers also don't get uncanny dodge until level 15 and rely heavily on Dex and Dodge bonuses to AC, so flanking is very useful here (remember that you lose Dodge and Dex bonuses to CMD when flat-footed as well). Even further, you don't threaten squares when wielding a ranged weapon, so attempting these maneuvers doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity (without Snap Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat)).

-Think carefully when taking monsters from the bestiary: They often have low Dexterity and high natural armor (which touch attacks ignore), making them little more than shooting bags for most gunslingers. Look for light, quick enemies with large dodge bonuses to AC or high Dexterity.

-Since AC often isn't an effective defense against the gunslinger, use miss chance, concealment, blur and the like.

-Instead of charging in close, hit from range: Most early firearms only have a maximum range of about 100 ft. Bows start at about 100ft. for the first range increment. Medium-range spells start at 100 ft., and long-range spells start at 400 ft.

-The Gunslinger has good Fortitude and Reflex saves, and though it has a poor Will save, their Wisdom may still keep it shored up, so targeting saves isn't great.

-Avoid single-target fights - always, because of action economy, but especially with Gunslingers. Many things will die in a full attack action, so avoid giving them a giant target all the time.

-Weather (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/weather) shuts down ranged attackers pretty hard, as well as spells and effects that cause extreme weather situation.

-Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deflect-arrows-combat) can help, and is fairly easy to add to an NPC with a level of Monk.

[Slipperychicken]

If none of these guys are going for range and they're too low-level to have teleportation, then simple horse-archers (you don't even need feats to ride while shooting) in the middle of a desert can take them down by staying out of range (since most characters aren't mounted) and slowly but surely plinking them to death with arrow-fire. Even a Sorcerer's long-range spells aren't as good as the 1000ft maximum on longbows until CL 15. If the Barbarian has DR (i.e. he didn't swap it out for something else), that would help him out.

I would be surprised if any of the meleers were equipped to survive horse-archer sniper harassment before level 9ish.

[eggynack]

Yeah, druids are tricky. There are things that get you part of the way there, but I'm not entirely sure there's one stable plan that can get you all of the way there. The first thing you've gotta get, before anything else, is either protection from alignment or magic circle against alignment, as well as some kinda freedom of movement. The best thing a druid has is its spell list, and the most powerful and widely used spells on the druid list tend to be summons and BFC's. After that, you need to be able to deal with the rest of the druid spell list, which is massive, as well as two melee guys who are pretty capable of front lining.

Honestly though, the druid list is pretty broad, and its areas of competence are rather level dependent. The things you need to fight a druid, and this applies to wizards and clerics too, are going to depend on level about as much as they do on that enemy's specific tactics. You obviously have to account for the existence of higher level slots, but the things you fill lower level slots with change as well, because the high level slots take on more of an active combat role, and low level slots can do long term buffing. For example, at level one, it's better to take produce flame over longstrider. At level 20, you'd much rather prepare longstrider, just because the spell cost is worth less than the potential action cost. It's complicated, is what I'm saying.

[Pickford]

Yeah, druids are tricky.

Druids have poor reflex saves. This means most any regular trap will get them.

(However, they also don't get Mind Blank...so any non-optimized enchantment should beat their will save ~1/2 the time anyway if you wanted to go that route.)

edit: The Paladin is going to be the most difficult, if not outright impossible, to pin down. They have the best saves (+cha to saves far outpaces anyone else) immunities to many effects that might incapacitate another and access to abjuration spells that are pretty sweet (Holy Sword for example guarantees the paladin can pick up any old thing and compete).

Obviously the difficulty is level dependent but...your best bet might be to forge evidence of a crime committed by the Paladin and manipulate the justice system into locking them up. Assuming the criminal justice system in the region is respectable (legitimate authority) and is tricked, then the Paladin would have to flee or give themselves up.

edit 2: This method would probably work equally well on 'most' good or Lawful PCs.

[eggynack]

Druids have poor reflex saves. This means most any regular trap will get them.

What kinda trap? It'd pretty much have to be some kinda door related trap, because druids of decent level fly all the time, and the animal companion is a decent buffer for a good amount of traps. Thus, I wouldn't say most any trap. Summoned creatures (and summoned elementals from the reserve feat) can sometimes also act as trap bait, and your trap has to be pretty deadly or you're just facing off against a somewhat more dead druid, and you need some extra oomph to go the rest of the way. Finally, if the druid is hanging out in something like desmodu bat form, their reflex save isn't half bad. Druids aren't the absolute best trap guys, but they're far from the worst.


(However, they also don't get Mind Blank...so any non-optimized enchantment should beat their will save ~1/2 the time anyway if you wanted to go that route.)
Druids have just about the best will save in the game (probably even better than clerics, because they're more SAD), so this may not be the best thing to toss at them.

[Pickford]

What kinda trap? It'd pretty much have to be some kinda door related trap, because druids of decent level fly all the time, and the animal companion is a decent buffer for a good amount of traps. Thus, I wouldn't say most any trap. Summoned creatures (and summoned elementals from the reserve feat) can sometimes also act as trap bait, and your trap has to be pretty deadly or you're just facing off against a somewhat more dead druid, and you need some extra oomph to go the rest of the way. Finally, if the druid is hanging out in something like desmodu bat form, their reflex save isn't half bad. Druids aren't the absolute best trap guys, but they're far from the worst.


Druids have just about the best will save in the game (probably even better than clerics, because they're more SAD), so this may not be the best thing to toss at them.

Why not just a net, or anything that entangles them? Actually even a pit would work if they take enough damage from falling to knock them out. (Wildshape requires a standard action to switch, so it can't be done in the time it takes to fall)

I know the will save is as good as it gets (Same as Monk, Wizard, etc...) but even then it's possible to beat it a reasonable percentage of the time. Having to do an action twice isn't immediately fatal to plan.

[JaronK]

Paladins: target their Dex with no save attacks. Lahm's Finger Darts or Shivering Touch (perhaps delivered by a Spectral Hand) should do the trick nicely.

Rogue: Just hit them. With d6 HD, light armor, and no special defensive abilities they're squishy as all heck. If you're a caster, send a swarm of Animate Dead minions at them. Just make sure it's hard to sneak up on you.

Monk: Just hit them. Swarms of undead works on them too.

Sorcerer: Depends entirely on the spell load out they have, but in general hit them hard and fast and don't let them take a shot at you.

JaronK

[eggynack]

Why not just a net, or anything that entangles them? Actually even a pit would work if they take enough damage from falling to knock them out. (Wildshape requires a standard action to switch, so it can't be done in the time it takes to fall)
A net is pretty easy to deal with. Heart of water is sitting right there as a third level spell, and that gets out of entangling effects pretty efficiently. For a pit, I'm basically always going to be a bat. I dunno if that's every druid's philosophy as applies to wild shape, but I think it's a reasonable one. Heart of air is also pretty nice at higher levels. It's like feather fall with a pile of extra effects.


I know the will save is as good as it gets (Same as Monk, Wizard, etc...) but even then it's possible to beat it a reasonable percentage of the time. Having to do an action twice isn't immediately fatal to plan.
Their will save is way higher than that. Druids have the good will save, yes, but they also pump wisdom through the roof. That can mean anything from 18 to 40 wisdom (18 base + 6 anthro bat + 6 periapt + 5 stat boosts + 5 inherent), or more if you're bumping it with spells. That's a whole heck of a lot for that to be the save you're targeting. You'd be better off with a fortitude based save or die, though even then you're running up against a good save and a secondarily raised stat. It's not a perfect defense, obviously, but it means that these offenses just aren't good enough by my reckoning.

[Pickford]

Paladins: target their Dex with no save attacks. Lahm's Finger Darts or Shivering Touch (perhaps delivered by a Spectral Hand) should do the trick nicely.

Rogue: Just hit them. With d6 HD, light armor, and no special defensive abilities they're squishy as all heck. If you're a caster, send a swarm of Animate Dead minions at them. Just make sure it's hard to sneak up on you.

Monk: Just hit them. Swarms of undead works on them too.

Sorcerer: Depends entirely on the spell load out they have, but in general hit them hard and fast and don't let them take a shot at you.

JaronK

It's only level 2, so Break Enchantment will undo the effects.

Also:
...plus the loss of one finger per dart. A hand with one or no fingers is useless.

Not being able to cast any somatic spells at all is a pretty steep price to pay after two castings.

Eggynack: So...two nets? (One to make the Druid use heart of water up, the other to laugh at him for wasting the spell so easily)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a Druid, you hit his animal companion with a Ray of Stupidity, and maybe spam that on him as well as Int is often not his strong stat. You can use Split Ray and (Lesser Rod of) Maximize to deal 10 Int damage each time its cast. With a Circlet of Rapid Casting you can throw two of those per round, or four rays, hit him three times and the animal companion once and they're down for the count. Ego Whip with metapsionics can do the same thing. This is about as cheesy as a Maximized Shivering Touch though, and he should have a Monk's Belt for a decent touch AC so YMMV.

[eggynack]

Eggynack: So...two nets? (One to make the Druid use heart of water up, the other to laugh at him for wasting the spell so easily)
The second net would have to be within rounds/level of the first net, given that the freedom of movement effect lasts for rounds/level. I wouldn't exactly call using heart of water to get out of a net a waste of that spell, given that that's what I prepared the spell for. There's not even a real action cost to using that, so right after escaping the net, you've gotta figure that the druid is going to start doing druidish things. I mean, he knows he's under attack, and that the guy attacking him has a penchant for traps, so it's not going to be easy to get another shot at him.


For a Druid, you hit his animal companion with a Ray of Stupidity, and maybe spam that on him as well as Int is often not his strong stat. You can use Split Ray and (Lesser Rod of) Maximize to deal 10 Int damage each time its cast. With a Circlet of Rapid Casting you can throw two of those per round, or four rays, hit him three times and the animal companion once and they're down for the count. Ego Whip with metapsionics can do the same thing. This is about as cheesy as a Maximized Shivering Touch though, and he should have a Monk's Belt for a decent touch AC so YMMV.
Druids tend to have a pretty high touch AC, between a monk's belt, which you noted, and a high dexterity bat form, which you didn't, so that could prove problematic. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a druid with more than 10 intelligence, given that it's a bit of a tertiary stat for them, so you might need to hit them with two shots. Still, ray of stupidity has a decent chance of working, I think.

[Pickford]

The second net would have to be within rounds/level of the first net, given that the freedom of movement effect lasts for rounds/level. I wouldn't exactly call using heart of water to get out of a net a waste of that spell, given that that's what I prepared the spell for. There's not even a real action cost to using that, so right after escaping the net, you've gotta figure that the druid is going to start doing druidish things. I mean, he knows he's under attack, and that the guy attacking him has a penchant for traps, so it's not going to be easy to get another shot at him.

Hrm...how about thugs who just kidnap the Druid while he/she is sleeping? No spells, no escape.

Wait...I just checked heart of water/freedom of movement, neither does anything to get you out of a net. You just get out of 'grapples' automatically.

[eggynack]

Hrm...how about thugs who just kidnap the Druid while he/she is sleeping? No spells, no escape.
I think it really depends on the specifics of how they're capturing him. Wild shaping into a large enough or small enough form can sometimes help against this kinda thing. Also, druids are more protected than some against this kinda attack, given that they can take shifts with an animal companion which almost always has scent. It might even be hard to find a sleeping druid, due to the whole impossible to track in natural environments thing.


Wait...I just checked heart of water/freedom of movement, neither does anything to get you out of a net. You just get out of 'grapples' automatically.

It allows you to move and attack normally despite things that impede movement. It hits a lot more things than grapples. I mean, it gets you through web and solid fog explicitly, so I couldn't imagine it not working on a net. I've heard it argued that freedom of movement can even get you out of a forcecage, though that's something of an edge case at best. As I mentioned above, wild shape might help with this issue as well, depending on how good nets are at keeping down creatures that keep changing size and shape.

[ericgrau]

Rouge - Not yet decided

Olive oil. Acetone works even better but then you run the risk of a total moisture wipe.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Druids tend to have a pretty high touch AC, between a monk's belt, which you noted, and a high dexterity bat form, which you didn't, so that could prove problematic. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a druid with more than 10 intelligence, given that it's a bit of a tertiary stat for them, so you might need to hit them with two shots. Still, ray of stupidity has a decent chance of working, I think.

You can use Fatigue/Exhaustion and Entangle (-ing Exhalation) effects to reduce an opponent's touch AC to something manageable.

A Dire Eagle in Races of Stone is a much better form than Dire Bat, considering its three attacks/round, Str 20, 60 ft. fly speed, +8 Spot bonus, and two-rider carrying capacity.

[eggynack]

You can use Fatigue/Exhaustion and Entangle (-ing Exhalation) effects to reduce an opponent's touch AC to something manageable.
This is a whole lot of actions to take against a druid who you're trying to kill. I'm not sure what the exact break point is, but at some point you're going to get your face eaten off in some manner (possibly with spells, possibly literally).


A Dire Eagle in Races of Stone is a much better form than Dire Bat, considering its three attacks/round, Str 20, 60 ft. fly speed, +8 Spot bonus, and two-rider carrying capacity.
I was actually referring to desmodu hunting bat form, which I'd put above the dire eagle in terms of effectiveness by quite a bit. They have a much higher dexterity, which gives you good touch AC, initiative, and ability to hit with ranged attacks (I'm thinking splinterbolt or blinding spittle here). The bat also has a good flight speed, which is pretty important if you want to hover around and shoot summons at people. They're medium too, which is important for obvious and level sensitive reasons, and they can pick up 120 foot blindsight for hours/level with enhance wild shape, which is really good. Finally, I'm not sure if you're right that you get the spot bonus from wild shape. Anyways, my conclusion is the desmodu hunting bat form is really really good.

[Trickquestion]

For a Druid, you need to exploit his connection to nature. No Druid could pass up a helpless animal in a bear trap or a burning grove of oak, so you've got a wide variety of guaranteed traps to work with. Set some fire elementals loose in a forest, fireproof yourself, then take the Druid by surprise while they try to contain the blaze. Ambushing them in areas with a minimum of "nature" would also give your villain an advantage. So, cities, maybe mines. If you could get an oil rig like in the first season of Avatar, you'd be set.

[eggynack]

For a Druid, you need to exploit his connection to nature. No Druid could pass up a helpless animal in a bear trap or a burning grove of oak, so you've got a wide variety of guaranteed traps to work with. Set some fire elementals loose in a forest, fireproof yourself, then take the Druid by surprise while they try to contain the blaze. Ambushing them in areas with a minimum of "nature" would also give your villain an advantage. So, cities, maybe mines. If you could get an oil rig like in the first season of Avatar, you'd be set.
The bear trap might work, but I could easily see a druid being cool with a forest fire, as it represents the natural order of things. You also need an actual ambush, rather than one that's just vaguely alluded to. Most of the plans I've seen here assume that the enemy is getting the drop on the druid somehow, which is fine I guess, but there's not much in the way of foolproof plans once everything is in position.

As for cities and mines, druids are alright in cities, and pretty fantastic in mines. A mine might actually be one of the druid's best fighting spots. They get to use a lot of spells they might otherwise not be able to, like stone shape, and wall of salt, and summoning an oread for earthquake seems like it'd be pretty good in a mine. Also, narrow and twisty areas are pretty great for battlefield control and summons, and druids get a pile of those. They can also burrow around, if they want, so that's potentially relevant. As for the city, impeding stones is one of the few druidic first level spells that may be better than entangle, and most druid tactics work just fine in urban centers. You could even be facing a druid specialized for city fighting, due to all of the Cityscape ACF's, so that might be relevant.

[Pickford]

I think it really depends on the specifics of how they're capturing him. Wild shaping into a large enough or small enough form can sometimes help against this kinda thing. Also, druids are more protected than some against this kinda attack, given that they can take shifts with an animal companion which almost always has scent. It might even be hard to find a sleeping druid, due to the whole impossible to track in natural environments thing.


It allows you to move and attack normally despite things that impede movement. It hits a lot more things than grapples. I mean, it gets you through web and solid fog explicitly, so I couldn't imagine it not working on a net. I've heard it argued that freedom of movement can even get you out of a forcecage, though that's something of an edge case at best. As I mentioned above, wild shape might help with this issue as well, depending on how good nets are at keeping down creatures that keep changing size and shape.

Yeah, but this isn't an NPC druid, it's a PC druid. That means an adventurer who 'happens' to be a druid, i.e. they walk through the cities and sleep in inns like normal folk. Plus it has to hang around the other PCs.

[eggynack]

Yeah, but this isn't an NPC druid, it's a PC druid. That means an adventurer who 'happens' to be a druid, i.e. they walk through the cities and sleep in inns like normal folk. Plus it has to hang around the other PCs.
The animal companion is still a major factor, and trying to ambush a druid who's hanging out with his party, where one of them is presumably keeping watch, seems like a bad idea.