[3.5] Ready Action treated as poor man's Immediate Action?

[Maginomicon]

Someone gets sick of pit traps in a dungeon and has access to spontaneously casting stone shape.

Ignoring finding a better spell/method to solve this problem, can he:

Repeatedly ready actions out of battle to cast stone shape?
Use a ready action to cast stone shape in response to a pit trap opening up underneath him?
If not #1 or #2, can he "hold a charge" on stone shape and use it in response to a pit trap opening underneath him?


It seems like as-worded the Ready Action allows you to do basically anything as a pseudo-immediate-action so long as you give up your standard action every round.

Please provide sources/page#s!

[bekeleven]

There's a prestige class in one of the completes that gives the ability to ready actions out of combat. So I assume that any time you're not playing tactically (round-based), RAW you can't ready actions.

One the one hand, this seems like an unnecessary distinction to me, since the difference between tactical play and non-tactical play is one of abstraction, and not anything in-game. On the other hand, tactical play does mean combat and that's not meaningless - your adrenaline is flowing, you get tunnel vision, you ignore nonlethal wounds... You can do things you can't do otherwise. Maybe walking around all day with a readied action is like walking around all day with your muscles tensed. You can do it for a minute when your life depends on it, but good luck doing it longer.

[Curmudgeon]

Ready is basically a mentally rehearsed plan to perform some action in the next few seconds. To focus on executing that plan when you detect some trigger, you give up everything else: no movement, no standard actions, and no free actions (including talking). So if you're intending to walk along with this plan ready to execute, you're already out of luck; you can't move with a readied action. You have to finish the movement, then plan what you'll do if some trigger (such as a pit trap opening) occurs.

Do you have pit traps that only open when you're stopped rather than walking? Then you might have a point to make with your DM. Otherwise, you can't do what you want without Quicken Spell: i.e., a much higher level (+4 levels, actually) spell.

Spells, and the rules for how and when you can use those spells, don't have any more power than just what's written in the rules. If you're having trouble with traps and your magic is andequate to the task, you need a Rogue. If you don't have a Rogue, expect to suffer. Magic solves may problems in D&D, but not all of them.

[Story]

Magic solves may problems in D&D, but not all of them.

It does solve traps just fine however, and usually better than a Rogue can. But not with Stone Shape specifically.

[jaydubs]

Ready is basically a mentally rehearsed plan to perform some action in the next few seconds. To focus on executing that plan when you detect some trigger, you give up everything else: no movement, no standard actions, and no free actions (including talking). So if you're intending to walk along with this plan ready to execute, you're already out of luck; you can't move with a readied action. You have to finish the movement, then plan what you'll do if some trigger (such as a pit trap opening) occurs.

Do you have pit traps that only open when you're stopped rather than walking? Then you might have a point to make with your DM. Otherwise, you can't do what you want without Quicken Spell: i.e., a much higher level (+4 levels, actually) spell.


You could have someone carry/drag/roll you on a cart. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

Spells, and the rules for how and when you can use those spells, don't have any more power than just what's written in the rules. If you're having trouble with traps and your magic is andequate to the task, you need a Rogue. If you don't have a Rogue, expect to suffer. Magic solves may problems in D&D, but not all of them.
Well, unless you have the summon elemental reserve feat. That'll solve this problem right quick.

[Deophaun]

Well, unless you have the summon elemental reserve feat. That'll solve this problem right quick.
Or just have another party member walk ahead of you. Gotta give the BSF some reason to be there. :)

[Sephoris]

You should be able to hold the charge on stone shape, since it's a touch spell without multiple targets. The trick is expending the charge. If you're going to hold the charge, I think you'd have to treat it the same way you treat holding a charge with any other spell; you get a free touch when you cast the spell, and if you don't use it then, it's a standard to do so in a later round. And a standard action is probably too slow to react to a pit trap unless it is a very, very deep one.

[Flame of Anor]

To simplify what I think Curmudgeon said, you would have to take your move actions between the times when you have a readied action--so unless pit traps open under you while you're standing still, it's useless.

Your round would go:

Action no longer readied
Take move action (fall into pit?)
Ready stone shape
Stand around with readied action while other characters take turns

[TuggyNE]

And a standard action is probably too slow to react to a pit trap unless it is a very, very deep one.

Nah, readied actions are magic like that, and would work fine. As Curmudgeon said and Flame of Anor clarified, though, it's gonna be a pain to actually maintain a readied action, since you can't take any actions except between readying.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I may have just missed something, but it looks like you can move while readying fine. It's only a standard action, and there's even a clause about taking a 5' step as part of the readied action but only if you don't otherwise move during the round.

[TuggyNE]

I may have just missed something, but it looks like you can move while readying fine. It's only a standard action, and there's even a clause about taking a 5' step as part of the readied action but only if you don't otherwise move during the round.

I believe the issue is that you can't really act after you ready until either the readied condition comes up, or a full round is over, so while you can move and then ready, I don't think you can ready and then move.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Ah wait, I see what I'm doing. I'm reading "at any time before your next action" as "at any time before your next turn." My mistake :smallredface:.

[Tvtyrant]

Why not just get a wand of Tenser's Disk and float over the traps?

Heck if you wanted to go really crazy make a Cube: Flying and Burrowing fortress with walls augmented by layered prismatic and force walls. It literally destroys the dungeon as it drills through it.

[Curmudgeon]

Why not just get a wand of Tenser's Disk and float over the traps?
So what happens when the person towing your Tenser's Floating Disk drops into the pit with spikes more than 3' long?
The disk floats approximately 3 feet above the ground at all times ...

[TuggyNE]

So what happens when the person towing your Tenser's Floating Disk drops into the pit with spikes more than 3' long?

Make your flying familiar tow it?

That said, this is kind of off the topic, which is pretty much just about whether stone shape can do this with readied actions.

[A_S]

You can, of course, move at half speed and ready an action at the end of each of your turns to use Stone Shape to save the fighter (who is walking in front of you) from any pit he falls into, since nothing stops you from having your action readied while he moves.

[Curmudgeon]

You can, of course, move at half speed and ready an action at the end of each of your turns to use Stone Shape to save the fighter (who is walking in front of you) from any pit he falls into, since nothing stops you from having your action readied while he moves.
Yes, you can Ready an action, but casting Stone Shape isn't going to be helpful for the Fighter; the range of the stone you can affect with that spell is touch, and you won't be able to move and cast the spell where it's needed.

[Story]

Why not just get a wand of Tenser's Disk and float over the traps?


Or an Amulet of the Disc.

Like I said, there's a lot of ways magic can solve traps. Stone Shape just isn't one of them (when used reactively at least).

[Flame of Anor]

Yes, you can Ready an action, but casting Stone Shape isn't going to be helpful for the Fighter; the range of the stone you can affect with that spell is touch, and you won't be able to move and cast the spell where it's needed.

It could work with the reach spell metamagic feat.

[Curmudgeon]

It could work with the reach spell metamagic feat.
Yes, but (again) that's a higher-level spell. Reach Spell with the aid of a a proxy (the Fighter) tripping the traps is +2 levels higher; Quicken Spell with the spellcaster tripping the traps is +4 levels higher.

You can solve most problems in D&D with spells; the question is how much spell power is going to be required. Conversely, a Rogue can take care of traps like this all day without breaking a sweat or using up any resources.

[ericgrau]

Actionwise I think this is specifically what readied actions are for, bad splatbooks be darned. But spellwise I don't think stone shape affects a large enough volume to work against 95% of traps. Wall of stone to make stone bridges could work.

How you move at the same time is a good point. Readying an action is a standard action. You could move and then ready, but during the movement you'd be vulnerable to pit traps. Maybe someone could carry you and proceed forward while you stare at the ground.

Since readied actions have triggers like "when a pit trap opens", you could still be vulnerable to other traps. The specifics are up to the DM, because the rules don't say much specifically. "When any trap goes off" seems a bit far fetched to describe what you're watching for (how?), as is declaring that you "cast a spell" rather than doing a specific thing with a specific spell.

Agreed that magic needs to be at-will and general purpose to actually replace other class features. Even if there is only one trap in the whole dungeon you need to match the challenge type and be able to constantly check for it. So spells like find traps need to be persisted to be worth more than a copper piece. The OP's trick gets screwed by all the other trap types, which are the majority. Even then it comes at the expense of other spells (and possibly persist uses), making your remaining class features that much less impressive.

[Lafaellar]

I would simply not allow this because it makes the mere concept of a trap obsolete.
Imho you can't ready an action to something that generic like a trap. There is a reason you have to take a reflex saving throw against it.

[Story]

Imho you can't ready an action to something that generic like a trap. There is a reason you have to take a reflex saving throw against it.

That is a good point. If readying an action against a trap were possible, you could just as easily ready an action to jump out of the way. The point of the reflex save is that you won't always notice in time.

[TuggyNE]

That is a good point. If readying an action against a trap were possible, you could just as easily ready an action to jump out of the way. The point of the reflex save is that you won't always notice in time.

Um. This thread has already amply explained why readying an action to jump out of the way will not work in the rules. And it's not because "pit trap opens under your feet" is too vague, but because readying does not allow you to take any other actions before the readied action goes off. If you can solve that, for example by being carried in a cart with your arm almost touching the ground, then you can make it work; otherwise no. Notably, there is no way you could use your astonishing jumping-out-of-the-way powers on behalf of someone else, so there are no such solutions for the purely mundane course of readying to jump. (Readying to grab someone's belt if they start to fall, now, that might work, subject to being forced to move very slowly.)

[Piggy Knowles]

Ready is basically a mentally rehearsed plan to perform some action in the next few seconds. To focus on executing that plan when you detect some trigger, you give up everything else: no movement, no standard actions, and no free actions (including talking). So if you're intending to walk along with this plan ready to execute, you're already out of luck; you can't move with a readied action.

Wait, what?

Readying is explicitly a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm) - you can absolutely move and ready an action. You'll just have to keep yourself down to a single move and re-ready the action each round. It'll slow your group down for basic travel, but it's doable.

For a bit of a readied action hack, tie your trigger to a verbal command, and coordinate with the party. This lets you remain imprecise about the exact trigger for your readied action - instead of saying "I ready an action to cast mass snake's swiftness when the ogre swings his club," you can say "I ready an action to cast mass snake's swiftness when Joe the Paladin shouts 'Now!'" This way, Joe can shout the command in response to a variety of scenarios where your readied action might be applicable, and you aren't tied down to a single triggering action for your ready.

It won't really help for something as specific as casting Stone Shape to close a pit trap, but if you have more general actions that might benefit from happening off-turn, it's an option.

[nedz]

Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) would allow you to do this, but that is a 9th.

[Curmudgeon]

Wait, what?

Readying is explicitly a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm) - you can absolutely move and ready an action.
I think you misinterpreted my post: you give up everything else "to focus on executing that plan", so the restriction applies when you've already used Ready.

If you want to be able to use Ready for a trap that will only be triggered while you're moving, you run into the limitation that you can't be walking along using move actions after you use Ready. But if instead you're using a move action to run into the trap, you finish that move action — and the trap finishes whatever it's doing to you on that move action — before you start the standard action required for Ready.

[TuggyNE]

Readying is explicitly a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm) - you can absolutely move and ready an action. You'll just have to keep yourself down to a single move and re-ready the action each round. It'll slow your group down for basic travel, but it's doable.

The crucial thing to remember is that Ready prevents you from taking any other actions between the moment of readying and the moment of taking the readied action, so you cannot move with an action readied.


Any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.