Where is the real advantage of Spontaenous Divination?

[Lactantius]

AS this ACF is totally hyped and recommended just anywhere, I try to understand what's so great about it.

Well, let's summon up the obvious advantages first:

- the Wizard gains a spontaenous casting ability for a whole school, which sounds great on the paper;
- all divination spells on the fly available;

Did I miss something that matters?

Now, some clarifictions with this ACF:
- only works with spells known, so you have to have those divinations in your spellbook;
- this excludes temporary useable divination spells coming from other sources like the spells known, for example: spells from the spellpool, woundrous items with divination spell onto it;
-it includes spells known which you gained from other spell lists.
For example, a wizard gains the oracle domain and knows augury, divination and commune. Those spells are legit targets for spontaenous divination.

Okay, now we have the basics.
To evaluate the true power of spontaenous divination, I have listed all important wizard divination spells available. If I forgot an important spell, correct me.

The purpose of this list is to check if this ACF is really so strong.
One important rule are the open slots which can be memeorized subsequently, if desired.
Therefore, I have splitted up the divination spells into three categories to check if spont. divination is really that helpful.
We have Combat, Dungeon/Scout/Environmental and Pure Utility
The difference is the time factor. In Combat, we have no time to rememorize within 15 minutes. In category 2 we could rememorize within 15 minutes (the time factor CAN be important, but most of the time, it isn't).
Category 3 is totally independant of memorized spells since you can rememorize the needed spell (like, if you need scrying, you could just use your open 4th-level-spell slot).

Goal: the more spells we find in category 2 and 3, the less powerful and needed spontaenous divination will be since we can get the same result without wasting a wizard bonus feat.
Spells in category 1 get checked whether we would memorize them normally (and therefore, would not use spont. div. in the first place for them).


1.) Combat
1 – Combat Readiness, Know Protections (MoF), True Casting, True Strike, 2 – See Invisibility, 3 – Unluck, Vision of the Omniscient Eye, 4 – Assay Spell Resistance, 5 – True Seeing, 6 – Analyze Dweomer (?)


2.) Dungeon/Scout/Environmental
0 – Detect Magic, 1 – Detect Dragonblood (DM), Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, 2 – Detect Aberration, See Invisibility, 3 – Arcane sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Vision of the Omniscient Eye (DM), 4 – Arcane Eye, 5 – Prying Eyes, Telepathic Bond, True Seeing, 6 – Eye of Stone, Greater Prying Eyes, 9 – Eye of Power, Foresight


3.) Pure utility/Downtime/No-hurry
1 – Appraising Touch, Comprehend Languages, Identify, Scholar’s Touch, 2 – Chain of Eyes, Confluence (DL), Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, Spymaster’s Coin, Trace Magic (DL), Truth-Testing (DL), 3 – Analyze Portal, Arcane Sight, Tongues, 4 – Detect Scrying, Past-Seeing (DL), Scrying, Locate Creature, 5 – Contact Other Plane, 6 – Analyze Dweomer, Glimpse of the Prophecy (MoE p.96), Legend Lore, Probe Thoughts, Scry Location, 7 – Greater Scrying, 8 – Discern Location, Moment of Prescience, 9 - Hindsight

The abbreviations are:
DL: Dragonlance books, DM: Dragon Magic, MoF: Magic of Faerûn


Here are my personal insights:
- many divination spells act independantly of spontaenous divination and thus, gain no profit of this ACF;
- most important combat divinations are memorized anyways at the appropriate encounter level. For example, true strike will be memorized by a wizard who needs a followed up, 100%-safe attack (mostly, rays).
True Seeing will be memorized daily, I would say at ~ level 10+
- environmental spells and dungeon-related spells divide up. Most of the get meorized daily if you know that you will enter the "dungeon-mode."
Best examples: arcane eye, prying eyes, specific detect-X-spells
- category 3 spells act mostly without time pressure. They are utility spells and should therefore be used with open wizard slots.

Sure, there are some spells which would really be handy to be cast on-the-fly and which you don't wanna memorize daily.
I would see those spells in that small category:
see invisibility, assay SR, maybe comprehend languages/tongues in tight social encounters.

Okay playgrounders, did I miss an important aspect?
Maybe a certain spell or spell application?
Is spontaenous divination not just a handy luxury feature which can be achieved in the same way with clever useage of open slots and carefully memorized spells?
Even then, if we want the spontaenous casting ability, wouldn't we work with uncanny forethought and gain the same result?

[Sith_Happens]

What's that, the Fighter lost his keys? Good thing I can spontaneously cast Locate Object.

[eggynack]

We have Combat, Dungeon/Scout/Environmental and Pure Utility
The difference is the time factor. In Combat, we have no time to rememorize within 15 minutes. In category 2 we could rememorize within 15 minutes (the time factor CAN be important, but most of the time, it isn't).
Category 3 is totally independant of memorized spells since you can rememorize the needed spell (like, if you need scrying, you could just use your open 4th-level-spell slot).

Goal: the more spells we find in category 2 and 3, the less powerful and needed spontaenous divination will be since we can get the same result without wasting a wizard bonus feat.
Spells in category 1 get checked whether we would memorize them normally (and therefore, would not use spont. div. in the first place for them).

That's not really how it works. You need to leave these slots open in order to re-prepare the slots, and leaving a slot open has a cost of its own. You've basically assumed that you're leaving every slot you have open, because otherwise calling the second and third categories pointless for spontaneous divination makes no sense. When you leave slots open in this fashion, you lose the potential combat utility of the spell you would have prepared, and that's highly problematic. Having a solid fog that can turn into a scrying is like having the potential utility of both spells at once. Leaving the slot open, you basically just get the potential utility of scrying, because putting a solid fog into an empty slot in the middle of the day makes very little sense.

[Emperor Tippy]

You missed a major point.

You say that True Seeing will be memorized daily which is generally good advice but do you need it daily?

You say that there are a number of divination spells that you aren't in any necessary hurry to use.

With Spontaneous Divination you can spend that 6th level slot you would spend on True Seeing on any other spell that you want. If you need to use True Seeing then you shrug and spend the slot on True Seeing, if you need whatever other spell (say another Greater Dispel Magic) then you use that.

This applies to every spell slot and divination spell in the game.

In regards to the utility issue, how many times do you have spell slots left over at the end of the day? Going to sleep with those slots filled effectively wastes them. With Spontaneous Divination you can turn all those excess slots into Divination's.

---
Spontaneous Divination also makes you a spontaneous arcane caster with the ability to cast up to 9th level arcane spells spontaneously. This opens up a number of feats, items, and PrC's to your use that would otherwise be beyond a wizards reach.

---
Oh yeah, and a number of spells on your Pure Utility/Downtime/No-Hurry list are "I need it now" type spells.

Hell, you put Analyze Dweomer on your list. Standard action cast time, tells you with no chance of failure the magical abilities on an item or spells active on a creature once per round as a free action along with the caster level of all effects.

It should be obvious why that can be quite useful in combat.

Or Detect Thoughts. Leaving aside it's interrogation utility, it's a second level spell that lasts a minute per level and will tell you if their is anything with a brain in a room with one round of concentration, it's great for spotting ambushes.

[Zanos]

Alter fortune is a divination spell. :smallcool:

[Emperor Tippy]

Even then, if we want the spontaenous casting ability, wouldn't we work with uncanny forethought and gain the same result?

Uncanny Forethought is a feat, it does not make something a class feature.

It also takes spending another feat on Spell Mastery.

[Andezzar]

You have to weigh the benefit of not having to memorize any divination you know vs. the benefits a metamagic/item creation feat or spell mastery that are available at level 5.

Spell mastery only helps if you use a spellbook or are in danger of actually losing the spellbook you use.

Available feats from the PHB are:
Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Widen Spell.

All those feats can be taken as normal feats as well, you only "lose" one feat in total. Some can even be taken as items.

So the feat would have to be really good to give up the versatility of Spontaneous divination.

Additionally leaving any slot open prevents you from using this slot for any spell that you need right away:
When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

[Grim Reader]

It allows you to qualify for Ultimate Magus without a second csting class, and thus burn off the 1st level of UM which is single-advancement.

[TuggyNE]

I think the responses might be overstating the case a bit, and missing some of the OP's actual argument.


That's not really how it works. You need to leave these slots open in order to re-prepare the slots, and leaving a slot open has a cost of its own. You've basically assumed that you're leaving every slot you have open, because otherwise calling the second and third categories pointless for spontaneous divination makes no sense. When you leave slots open in this fashion, you lose the potential combat utility of the spell you would have prepared, and that's highly problematic. Having a solid fog that can turn into a scrying is like having the potential utility of both spells at once. Leaving the slot open, you basically just get the potential utility of scrying, because putting a solid fog into an empty slot in the middle of the day makes very little sense.

Nah, not every slot, just do as Tippy mentioned a few days ago in another thread, and fill slots on-demand with just enough spells to get through the next encounter. If you burn a solid fog, prepare a new one in one of the empty slots when you get a chance.

Now, sure, it's not a completely free tradeoff, since sometimes you'll need to use more than you expected in a single encounter, but most of the time it should work more or less OK.


You missed a major point.

You say that True Seeing will be memorized daily which is generally good advice but do you need it daily?

You say that there are a number of divination spells that you aren't in any necessary hurry to use.

With Spontaneous Divination you can spend that 6th level slot you would spend on True Seeing on any other spell that you want. If you need to use True Seeing then you shrug and spend the slot on True Seeing, if you need whatever other spell (say another Greater Dispel Magic) then you use that.

This applies to every spell slot and divination spell in the game.

I suppose it would be useful to get an estimate for various (immediate-use only) spells on how often they are not used at all in a day, which would give you a rough figure for the spell slots wasted on preparing a single copy of each.


In regards to the utility issue, how many times do you have spell slots left over at the end of the day? Going to sleep with those slots filled effectively wastes them. With Spontaneous Divination you can turn all those excess slots into Divination's.

It took me a while to realize what you meant by this, but I suppose the number of prepared/filled and non-expended slots will usually be non-zero. Whether the marginal value of all those Divinations is actually worth it is maybe a little harder to be sure, but it's something to consider.


Additionally leaving any slot open prevents you from using this slot for any spell that you need right away:

Wasn't that already accounted for?

[Andezzar]

That's a nifty trick. You would not be able to use augmented casting though. Still, CL 19 (spell slots as level 15 though) at level 15 is nice.

[Emperor Tippy]

I suppose it would be useful to get an estimate for various (immediate-use only) spells on how often they are not used at all in a day, which would give you a rough figure for the spell slots wasted on preparing a single copy of each.
A lot of it depends on the DM and your level.


It took me a while to realize what you meant by this, but I suppose the number of prepared/filled and non-expended slots will usually be non-zero. Whether the marginal value of all those Divinations is actually worth it is maybe a little harder to be sure, but it's something to consider.
I've usually found that it's at least two or three spells a day that I otherwise wouldn't cast.

Like Detect Scrying. It has a twenty four hour duration (48 with Extend spell) and provides some use but its not usually worthwhile enough to drop a 4th level spell slot on unless you have reason to believe that someone is going to try and scry on you. But at the end of the day you can dump any 4th level or higher spell slot you left into casting it once and then you are good for the next day.

Or Prying Eyes. Blow a number of 5th level spells slots on it at the end of the day and you effectively have scouts on practically every approach. Covering a thousand foot radius around you isn't too difficult.

Then there is Moment of Prescience, especially with a Greater Rod of Extend (which you probably have and may well have a use left for the day).

And, of course, the old standbys of Scrying/Greater Scrying and Contact Other Planes.

[2xMachina]

Benefit of Spontaneous Divination: Able to take Versatile Spellcaster and become pseudo-spontanenous with every spell

[Story]

Alter fortune is a divination spell. :smallcool:

This. If nothing else, Spontaneous Divination is probably worth it for that alone.

[Lactantius]

Most time I play a wizard, I leave approx. one slot each spell level open in any case. This is a win-win-situation since you can pseudo-spontaenously cast all other spells from your spellbook.
So, If I execute that routine, I must check the opportunity costs of burning a wizard bonus feat. Then I check the net gain and ask myself: do I get a real gain with this feat or can I handle the situation with some prepped div'S and some through open slots?

Certain spells win, certain lose.
- alter fortune is nice, indeed. But I'm reluctant in waisting 200 XP EACH DAY at least (since I would use that spell on da daily dose anyways, cause it rocks). That's why I stick to Insight of Good Fortune. A bit weaker, but more reliable.
- unluck is nice. So nice that I would prepped it daily anyways => no gain with spont. div.
- true strike gets important at mid and high levels as soon as you can afford quickened true strike & a followed up ray like disintegrate. Until then, it's questionable since you burn one standard action.
- combat readiness is a bit hidden (DotU sourcebook), but frankly too good to skip. Giving an ally initiative is a no-brainer.

@sith_happens: and what hinders you to cast Locate object via the unused, open 2nd level spell slot?

@eggynack: obviously I dont' leave all slots open. As mentioned, one slot each spell level is a good formula to start with (sometimes more, sometimes less).

@emperor tippy: unused slots at the end of the day: the real kicker is using unused, open slots with rary's mnemonic enhancer and create extra slots for the next day. Action economy win.
And besides that, I don't see the advantage in burning a prepped solid fog to get a 4th-level-divination-spell or greater dispel magic to get a 6th-level-divination-spell if I can do the same thing with the open slot and keep my memorized spells untouched.
One thing I agree with is that you would waste the prepped slots for solid fog, gr. dispel magic if you don't use them in the first place. But then again, you must override those unused spell slots with a divination that lasts long enough to work at the next day. Besides stuff like detect scrying, is see not that much potential in this trick.

@emperor tippy, concerning UF: I know the difference and the extra feat tax. But if I compre both and see that UF gives me the same advantage for all magic schools (instead of only one) and if we consider that the CL-penalty won't hurt divination spells the most time, then I ask myself why I shouldn't stick to UF and skip SpoDiv.

@Extra tricks to gain spontaenous casting:
yes, a nice side effect. But if I want spontaenous casting, I can stick to UF, spellpool and more stuff. I don't need SpoDiv to get that feature.

Another drawback unmentioned yet: since you burn your wizard bonus feat at 5th level, you lose the chance to get another good ACF made for wizard bonus feats. For example, granted domain power (like, inquisition).
High opportunity cost, If you ask me.

[Fax Celestis]

It allows you to qualify for Ultimate Magus without a second csting class, and thus burn off the 1st level of UM which is single-advancement.

Damn, someone beat me to it.

It also, incidentally, qualifies you for anything else that requires spontaneous casting.

[Pickford]

snip

Nothing in the ACF over-rides the fact that spellcasters can only cast spells from their spell lists. Any divination (in this case) is purely wizard divinations.

Also, this was errata'd


Page 52 – Spontaneous Divination
- Benefit [Revision]
The first sentence should instead
read, “You can spontaneously cast
any spell you know from the
divination school by sacrificing a
prepared spell of equal or greater
level.”

So no hijinks.

[Story]

- alter fortune is nice, indeed. But I'm reluctant in waisting 200 XP EACH DAY at least (since I would use that spell on da daily dose anyways, cause it rocks). That's why I stick to Insight of Good Fortune. A bit weaker, but more reliable.

Losing XP is bad, but dieing is worse. Anyway, why do you have to pick one? With Spontaneous Divination, you always have both at the ready with no cost, plus a lot more besides.

[Lightlawbliss]

Most time I play a wizard, I leave approx. one slot each spell level open in any case. This is a win-win-situation since you can pseudo-spontaenously cast all other spells from your spellbook.
...
Leaving slots open has costs too, as has already been mentioned. I can't help but notice you consider the open spell slot no cost (or at least that is what you have communicated).

...
Another drawback unmentioned yet: since you burn your wizard bonus feat at 5th level, you lose the chance to get another good ACF made for wizard bonus feats. For example, granted domain power (like, inquisition).
High opportunity cost, If you ask me.
Imo, a lot of those acfs are not very good, some are even to the point of pointless.
For example, the illusionist 5th level feat cost feature: add int to hide checks. A Factotum can add int to all str and dex checks at 3rd level at no cost. Oh, and what illusionist would be using the hide skill?
transmuter: changes a single spell to transmutation.
necromancer: +2 on some saves most necromancers make themselves immune to anyways.
evoker: a metamagic feat usable spontaneously 1/day:that's one of the better ones

[Story]

Incidentally the Domain Granted Power is available as a general feat anyway via Planar Touchstone.