[PF] Monk/Druid build. Is a 2 level dip unreasonable?

[magotter]

Hey guys, I've run into a bit of a conundrum for an upcoming PF-Only game I'm about to start, and I'd really appreciate any feedback from the community. A bit of background:

- Setting is tower based. The ground is poisoned so all the major cities are giant tower structures, like Sharn. Mineral resources are scarce as there are only a few viable mining spots. Metal items are expected to be rather rare.
- Players are not being informed of who else is playing in the game, nor are they allowed to discuss character builds if they find out. GM wants to encourage us to play what we want, not what offers the best party combination.
- Starting level 1, 15-pointbuy, any PF Race that's 10 RP or less, any 1st party PF material (including Non-core / SRD stuff).

As there's a need for non-gear-dependant PCs, and because it's been ages since I've played one, I'm shooting for druid. Focus on casting, but I want to be able to go toe-to-toe in melee if needed.

Dwarf Race, Stats are:
Str 13
Dex 14
Con 11 -> 13
Int 10
Wis 16 -> 18
Cha 7 -> 5

Following a lot of advice threads, particularly from StreamoftheSky, I'm starting with Monk 1 and then investing heavily in Druid. Monk will be Master of Many Styles, taking Crane Style as the bonus feat (haven't chosen a level 1 feat yet). Then comes at least 4 levels of Menhir Savant Druid, with Feather domain, Boon Companion as 3rd level feat (GM gave me an okay on this, since it doesn't actually apply until 4th level) and Natural Spell at 5th Level. So by 5th level I've got a good chunk of my power.

Now, here's my inquiry: If I add the Monk of the Sacred Mountain archetype, is it worth it to take a second level of monk at level 6 before finishing off with 14 more levels of Druid? Sacred Mountain gives me the Iron Monk power, which is exactly the Toughness feat and an additional +1 to Natural Armor (not and enhancement, so just stacks with any racial/wildshape Nat. AC). This is in addition to a second Bonus Style Feat, letting me get Crane Wing and circumventing the requirements.

The way I see it, I'm looking at some Pro and Cons for the 2nd-level dip:

Pro: +1 to all saves, Toughness, +1 AC, Crane Wing feat without prereqs.
Con: Delaying my casting down to 2 levels behind instead of 1 level behind.

I admit, I'm really kinda torn about this. Like I said, I intend to focus a bit more of the caster side with melee as a backup option, but the benefits of Monk 2 seem really rather good for bolstering myself as a fighter. I also think it'd be less of a conundrum if I knew I'd be able to get, say, an Agile or Guided Amulet of Natural Fists, but from the way the GM talks I don't think I can rely on being guaranteed any gear.

[Mjollnir075]

Personally, I say go for it. Too many people I believe think that their characters are going all the way to 20, which if I'm not mistaken, happens pretty rarely (barring starting at higher levels, but that's not applicable).

If you do make it to 20, then as long as you still get 9ths, you should be alright. That is usually the hard rule around here anyway.

I have to ask though.. If you are taking the Feather Domain, how are you getting an animal companion? and if you aren't, why take Boon Companion?

[grarrrg]

Pro: +1 to all saves, Toughness, +1 AC, Crane Wing feat without prereqs.
Con: Delaying my casting down to 2 levels behind instead of 1 level behind.


Don't forget the WIS-to-AC, that's especially handy.


I have to ask though.. If you are taking the Feather Domain, how are you getting an animal companion? and if you aren't, why take Boon Companion?

Feather is a Sub-Domain of Animal, he still gets the Animal Domain companion. Boon companion is to make up for the -3 level penalty from the domain, plus a level of Monk.

[magotter]

Feather is a subdomain of Animal; instead of getting a Speak with animals power, you gain a bonus to Perception that scales with Druid level. This is entirely a better option. The Animal domain itself grants you an animal companion at your Druid Level -3, and Boon Companion gives you a +4 to the same level for animal companion. By taking the domain and the feat, I'm actually 1 level higher with my companion than my actual druid level. and on top of that I've got an extra slot per day for my domain spells; and while the Feather/Animal domain isn't as awesome as, say, Weather domain, the ability to get the slots and a companion is too good to pass.

[magotter]

Don't forget the WIS-to-AC, that's especially handy.



Feather is a Sub-Domain of Animal, he still gets the Animal Domain companion. Boon companion is to make up for the -3 level penalty from the domain, plus a level of Monk.

Well the Wis to AC is a given. Like I said, I'm taking at least a 1 level dip in monk no matter what; it's whether or not to dip a 2nd level in, granting the listed benefits in exchange for delaying my casting by 2 levels instead of 1.

[Mjollnir075]

Feather is a Sub-Domain of Animal, he still gets the Animal Domain companion. Boon companion is to make up for the -3 level penalty from the domain, plus a level of Monk.

Ah. Apparently I had forgotten how subdomains work. Derp.

As for the 1 or 2 level dip, I would say go for the two. Some of the bonuses are pretty minor, but getting feats is always nice. Doing so without Pre-reqs is even nicer. More importantly, though, is whether or not it fits how you imagine your character. Personally, I think the idea you have is pretty flavorful. Feather Domain and Crane Style, get a flying animal companion and practice "Wing-chun".

Then I look at the race, and I am confused. Stat bonuses are fitting for the character, but still..

[magotter]

I think the idea you have is pretty flavorful. Feather Domain and Crane Style, get a flying animal companion and practice "Wing-chun".

Then I look at the race, and I am confused. Stat bonuses are fitting for the character, but still..

Oh come now, what's not flavorful about a Dwarf, eccentric already in that he's a monk and a tree hugger (Durkon would be aghast) who obsesses over birds in every form and fashion; yearning for the power of flight while most of his racial kin are just as happy if they never saw the sun again in their lives?

[Drelua]

It seems to me that you might want to reconsider when you're taking those monk levels. I have a plan for a Brawler Fighter/Master of Many Styles Monk that starts with 3 fighter levels then 2 monk levels so I can take Dragon Style and Snake Style with my level 3 and 5 feats, and use my Monk bonus feats to get Dragon Ferocity and Snake Fang. It's nice to be able to get both styles at going at once quite a few levels before you normally could, especially when it lets me skip right past Snake Sidewind.

[magotter]

It seems to me that you might want to reconsider when you're taking those monk levels. I have a plan for a Brawler Fighter/Master of Many Styles Monk that starts with 3 fighter levels then 2 monk levels so I can take Dragon Style and Snake Style with my level 3 and 5 feats, and use my Monk bonus feats to get Dragon Ferocity and Snake Fang. It's nice to be able to get both styles at going at once quite a few levels before you normally could, especially when it lets me skip right past Snake Sidewind.

Do you think I should take Monk-2 as my second level, then? I was gonna take it at level 6 so I could still get Natural Spell at level 5 (In line with Druid-4 when I get Wild Shape). I suppose by Level 7 it doesn't matter either way, but it does Delay Natural Spell into my Level 7 feat slot instead of my 5th. I suppose a bit more melee prowess couldn't hurt since I'll be lacking a companion in low levels and casters are at a disadvantage pre-5th level.

[Drelua]

Do you think I should take Monk-2 as my second level, then? I was gonna take it at level 6 so I could still get Natural Spell at level 5 (In line with Druid-4 when I get Wild Shape). I suppose by Level 7 it doesn't matter either way, but it does Delay Natural Spell into my Level 7 feat slot instead of my 5th. I suppose a bit more melee prowess couldn't hurt since I'll be lacking a companion in low levels and casters are at a disadvantage pre-5th level.

Actually, I meant just the opposite. Taking those monk levels no earlier than level 3 would mean you can take the Style feats the normal way, continuing the feat chain with your bonus feats.which you usually have to be at least level 3 to do. This makes it a lot easier take advantage of the MoMS' ability to combine two styles, since you can get ahead in the feat chains faster. Crane Style would be good for you, possibly combined with Snake Style to make you really hard to hit so you can cast your spells safely.

This might make the character a bit weaker at first, but it should make you a bit stronger further down the line. I mean, this gets you Snake Fang as early as level 3, which you'd normally have to wait until level 9 for.

[magotter]

Actually, I meant just the opposite. Taking those monk levels no earlier than level 3 would mean you can take the Style feats the normal way, continuing the feat chain with your bonus feats.which you usually have to be at least level 3 to do. This makes it a lot easier take advantage of the MoMS' ability to combine two styles, since you can get ahead in the feat chains faster. Crane Style would be good for you, possibly combined with Snake Style to make you really hard to hit so you can cast your spells safely.

This might make the character a bit weaker at first, but it should make you a bit stronger further down the line. I mean, this gets you Snake Fang as early as level 3, which you'd normally have to wait until level 9 for.

I see where you're coming from; utilizing the prereq-bypassing of my bonus feats. It's a solid idea, but I think If I were gonna make the most of it, I'd have to avoid monk all together until level 7. The reason being that Natural Spell and Boon Companion are, if I'm honest, worth more to me, so they're definitely going in my level 3 and 5 slots.

It'd also require me to spend my level 1 slot to get Dodge (never a terrible feat to have) so i can get Crane Style in my level 7 slot, and crane wing as a level 7 bonus slot. Then at level 9 get Snake Style in my normal and Snake fang in my bonus slot.

Yeah, like you said, in the long run it bolsters my power by letting me be more efficient with my bonus slots and prereq circumvention, but do i really wanna delay getting my crane style until level 7?

...Seriously, I'm asking...

[magotter]

Actually, yanno, after fiddling with this for a few hours, I think I've got a build I like:

Lvl Class Feats
1 Druid 1 Dodge
2 Druid 2
3 Monk 1 Crane Style / Bonus: Crane Wing
4 Druid 3
5 Druid 4 Natural Spell
6 Monk 2 Bonus: Crane Riposte
7 Druid 5 Boon Companion
8 Druid 6
...

I think I like Crane Riposte better than Snake Fang, though it was a good recommendation. Both give an extra attack against a foe (Snake on a missed attack, and Crane on a Wing-Deflection).

The thing is that Snake Style does minimal good for me, since my claws will be slashing or piercing anyway. Snake Fang could be good -if- I also took Combat Reflexes, had a bit higher Dex, and was surrounded by foes, since I could get an extra attack against each.

But even with Combat Reflexes, you can only still make one AoO against a foe each round. So I think I'd rather save the feat slot and take Crane Riposte. Even better, Crane Style and Riposte together lower the penalty for Fighting Defensively from -4 to -1 (and still giving me +3 AC). This is great, since I can only use Crane Wing while fighting defensively.

All the same, I really appreciate the feedback, and Drelua for making me look further into Style Feats. Snake Style is still entirely viable, but I think I'm just going to use normal slots for it. I know I'm being sub-optimal with my bonus slots, but I think it works better for y overall power progression.

[grarrrg]

If Snake is no good, there's always Turtle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-style-combat-style).
Basic is +1 Shield bonus to AC as long as you have a free hand.

Clutch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-clutch-combat) applies the Turtle-Shield bonus to CMD and Touch AC (also something about Grapples, but, meh).

Shell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-shell-combat) boosts it up to +2 Shield bonus, and opponents get -4 on Crit Confirms.

[Drelua]

Yeah, I see what you mean about other feats being more important. I was mostly looking at it for a Fighter/Monk, so I guess having enough feats wasn't really a concern for my character. Boon Companion is Great, definitely my 5th level feat on my Barbarian 1/Ranger 1.

I do think Snake Fang is much better than Crane Riposte if you take Combat Reflexes, because you can in fact make more than one attack of opportunity against a given foe per round. The only limitation is listed on page 180 of the CRB:
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

I also think you're focusing on the wrong aspect of Snake Style; the piercing damage isn't important, it's replacing your AC with a sense motive check that's useful, especially for a character with such a heavy focus on Wisdom. Crane Wing is certainly much better at this though, since it automatically works instead of relying on a skill check, but then it's also much more restricted in use since you have to be fighting defensively and it only applies to melee attacks.

You should also note that having 3 ranks in Acrobatics increases the bonuses from fighting defensively and total defense by half.

[Mjollnir075]

Another Style feat to consider might be the Boar Style feats combined with Hamatula Strike/Grasp. I mean, its pretty feat intensive, but with Druid you only really need Boon Companion/Natural Spell anyway.

Well, considering your low Cha, this may not be the best advice, but if the Style feats work while Wildshaped, it might not be too bad..

[magotter]

Another Style feat to consider might be the Boar Style feats combined with Hamatula Strike/Grasp. I mean, its pretty feat intensive, but with Druid you only really need Boon Companion/Natural Spell anyway.
That certainly is an interesting way to get in some Grab attacks, but somehow I see that being more useful on a Maneuver Master. While my wisdom adds to almost all my defenses, it really doesn't do anything for my CMB, and both my Str and Dex are kinda low to focus it. A great suggestion, but perhaps not suitable for my build.



If Snake is no good, there's always Turtle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-turtle-style-combat-style).
Basic is +1 Shield bonus to AC as long as you have a free hand.


I was definitely considering that if not Snake as a secondary. Still, that's level 9+ territory.


I do think Snake Fang is much better than Crane Riposte if you take Combat Reflexes, because you can in fact make more than one attack of opportunity against a given foe per round.

Okay, yeah, that is definitely something I didn't recall for Combat Reflexes. I thought it was 1 foe/round period. So, yeah, that could be a lot of Retaliation/Reflect attacks against multi-attacking foes.

I think I -still- like getting Crane Riposte, since it lowers the Fighting Defensively penalty even more, and can stack with Snake Fang if I get it later (Since it triggers off Crane Wing instead of a miss). And as Mjollner implied, it's not like I'm hurting at all for feats once I've got my main two. But since I've only got two levels of monk, I can only use two styles at once.

The Turtle line would gives me an extra +3 to AC, CMD, and Touch AC, and extra Touch AC is always great. Combine this with the +4 Dodge AC due to Crane Style and the Dodge Feat, as well as my Wisdom to every AC and CMD and I'm basically the world's greatest Evasion Tank. and +1 extra if/when I get some monk's robes.

However, Snake Style gives me Sense-Motive-as-AC. I'd call that broken if it weren't only 1/round and used up my Swift Action as an Immediate, but it'll stack with my Crane Wing negate, blocking 2 attacks each turn. and then it has its own Riposting line.

Regardless, Both are gonna require 4 feats if I use my normal slots, which means at earliest I'll get them by level 15. A nice capstone, but of the two I'd rather get the Snake line. Really, taking a second look, it might be worth it to use my bonus slots on Snake Fang after all and get Crane Riposte through normal slots.

Oh well, back to the scribble pad.


Edit: my grammar is terribad.

[Psyren]

Personally, I say go for it. Too many people I believe think that their characters are going all the way to 20, which if I'm not mistaken, happens pretty rarely (barring starting at higher levels, but that's not applicable).

If you do make it to 20, then as long as you still get 9ths, you should be alright. That is usually the hard rule around here anyway.

It's not really about getting or not getting to 20 - rather, it's about being 2 levels behind in your spellcasting forever. That can be worth it for Wis to AC, but then again just wearing Wild armor works just as well and continues to benefit you while flatfooted/paralyzed/etc.

[magotter]

It's not really about getting or not getting to 20 - rather, it's about being 2 levels behind in your spellcasting forever. That can be worth it for Wis to AC, but then again just wearing Wild armor works just as well and continues to benefit you while flatfooted/paralyzed/etc.

A valid point on the spellcasting, and it was one of my primary concerns to start. Still, I knew I was gonna be at least 1 behind; at least a 1 level dip in monk is too damn good to pass up. The question was whether or not to go 2 behind. Wis to AC does, however, still benefit my Touch/Flat ACs in addition to normal, something actual Armor lacks, wilded or otherwise. And more to the point I get the impression the game is going to be gear-light, so I don't think I can even depend on getting a wand of Mage Armor, much less some Wilded leather.

[Mjollnir075]

It's not really about getting or not getting to 20 - rather, it's about being 2 levels behind in your spellcasting forever. That can be worth it for Wis to AC, but then again just wearing Wild armor works just as well and continues to benefit you while flatfooted/paralyzed/etc.

That's very true. I guess it just boils down to preference and party op level. The players in my games I run are pretty new and they can already see the difference in power between mundane and spellcasters, but I try to encourage them to dip and dabble to make their characters theirs. I guess some of my personal preference bled through to my suggestions.

In this specific scenario though, I think that the front loaded goodies you get from 2 monk levels is worth being behind a few spell levels though. If your other teammates are playing full spellcasters, you'll see a decent power jump between you to them, but thats never stopped anyone from playing a cool character idea.

As for more character building help, are you still considering Monk of the Sacred Mountain? I always felt pretty underwhelmed by it. Upon cursory glance, Maybe try out Monk of the Lotus? Touch of Serenity could be pretty useful for shutting down enemies with low will saves, or if you get lucky maybe shutting down an enemy spellcaster. The DC scales with wisdom, so there is some synergy there. It also has the caveat of giving you more uses per day from non monk levels as well (though not many).

Edit: As much for my knowledge as for helping Magotter, can you use the Touch of Serenity on an attack of opportunity? It requires calling it before an attack roll, not in place of an attack. Could you build an AOO based Monk around this? It could be an effective way to shut down enemies for a few rounds.

[magotter]

As for more character building help, are you still considering Monk of the Sacred Mountain? I always felt pretty underwhelmed by it. Upon cursory glance, Maybe try out Monk of the Lotus? Touch of Serenity could be pretty useful for shutting down enemies with low will saves, or if you get lucky maybe shutting down an enemy spellcaster. The DC scales with wisdom, so there is some synergy there. It also has the caveat of giving you more uses per day from non monk levels as well (though not many).

Edit: As much for my knowledge as for helping Magotter, can you use the Touch of Serenity on an attack of opportunity? It requires calling it before an attack roll, not in place of an attack. Could you build an AOO based Monk around this? It could be an effective way to shut down enemies for a few rounds.

I don't disagree that Monk of the Sacred Mountain is underwhelming.... for a full monk progression. But for the dip? I like the minor benefit more than what it replaces. I mean, the initial reason to take Monk-2 was for the second bonus feat. I picked Sacred Mountain because 1) it was one of the few stackable Archetypes with Many Styles, and 2) evasion isn't as great as a lot of people think it is, and while minor, Iron Monk is a good replacement (granting Toughness for 20 HP and +1 Racial Natural AC).

I saw Lotus, and Hungry Ghost's Punishing Kick. Touch of Serenity is a nice alternative to Stunning Fist in that that it targets Will instead of Fort. This is great for any non-caster enemy, but I think I prefer Stunning Fist. After all, when affected by Touch of Serenity, foes can't make hostile actions, but they can still withdraw, forcing you to chase them. Stunning Fist has the same DC, does full punch damage, and not only is the enemy unable to attack, but he can't move -and- takes a huge AC penalty. And I already have Stunning fist just by being a monk. and finally, any Stun/Serenity/Kick maneuver is cool, but still limited to attempts per day, while the feats Sacred Mountain gives are 24/7, even if they are more minor.

As for Serenity as an AoO? a quick glance at the power description (and Stunning Fist, and Punishing Kick) all only mention an Attack Roll, not an Attack Action. Consensus seems to agree looking over various PF forums on the nets. RAI seems to indicate you can make the attempt any time you make a roll to hit, so, yeah, that could be the set up for a really good melee build. (Enlarge, Reach, Combat Reflexes, Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Finesse and a High Dex, then go to town punching everyone in the head or sternum as they get within range).