Wizard vs Sorcerer

[Melcar]

Hi...

What is more powerful, by RAW at level 20, with the same items? Wizards or Sorcerers?

[Lightlawbliss]

Wizard, 95% of the time or more, is better then sorcerer.

[Namfuak]

Powerful in what way? In an unexpected duel, they both have the same spell lists, so it depends on which makes better use of what they have prepared/learned. In terms of general utility, wizards tend to be more useful since they can change spells from day to day, and even leave slots open if they want to be able to adapt to out of combat situations (or combat situations where they have at least 15 minutes to prepare). In terms of ability to break the game, sorcerers are tier 2 and wizards are tier 1 because while sorcerers can choose to learn a subset of gamebreaking spells and combos, wizards can learn all the spells and break the game in every way available to them from day to day. One other thing is that wizards are more likely to write down a spell that's only situationally useful or useful in the long term, like that Magnificent Mansion spell, while sorcerers will probably have to spend their known spells on more generally useful spells and try to keep a few scrolls of the less-used spells on them.

[galan]

wizard can destroy more campaigns every morning, but on a PVP the sorc have a good chance.

[Lord Haart]

What is more powerful, by RAW at level 20, with the same items? Wizards or Sorcerers?

By RAW, if they were monsters they would both be of the same CR, and that's the only way Rules As Written esteem how powerful a character is.

Your question has nothing to do with non-existant "A pure-classed level 20 Wizard is regarded as more powerful than a pure-classes level 20 sorcerer in all regards, except for the purpose of divinations addressed to rain gods with power to soak wizard's spellbook" sidebar and everything with players' opinions, whether well-founded in side-by-side and real-game-experience comparison or not.

[Chronos]

There are a number of spells that are really useful once per day, but not really more than that, such as Rope Trick. There are also spells that occasionally come in handy, but which usually don't, like Legend Lore or Identify. It doesn't cost a wizard much to put those spells in their book and maybe spend one slot on them, but it's a waste for a sorcerer to spend Spells Known on them. Wizards are also better at crafting magic items, since those sometimes require the use of an obscure spell that isn't really useful for much besides making that item.

And then there's the option of changing out your list, depending on what you're going to be facing: A wizard who expects to be fighting undead, for instance, can skip all of the mind-effecting spells and replace them with Sunbeam, Undeath to Death, Disintegrate, and the like, or the reverse if he knows that he's not going to be facing many undead. A sorcerer doesn't have that option: If he takes any spells that are useful primarily against undead, they're not going to be so useful if you don't meet any that day.

This is in addition to all of the other little things that wizards get over sorcerers, like bonus feats, earlier access to each level of spell, and standard-action metamagic.

[Vortenger]

We've talked this into the ground a million times. Really either will feel strong at all levels with smart choices, but mechanically? Here's the work of hundreds of deliberations boiled down for your enjoyment:

The Tiers (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0)!

[DeAnno]

The two main reasons to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard are

1) If you don't want the bother of a spellbook.

2) Sorcerer specific or favored spells. This is basically the Arcane Fusions, Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover, and to an extent Arcane Spellsurge.

Usually #2 is not worth it, from a purely mechanical standpoint, unless you wish to be a focused blaster, or possibly some kind of very focused in-combat summoner/buffer

[Kristinn]

The two main reasons to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard are

1) If you don't want the bother of a spellbook.

2) Sorcerer specific or favored spells. This is basically the Arcane Fusions, Wings of Flurry, Wings of Cover, and to an extent Arcane Spellsurge.

Usually #2 is not worth it, from a purely mechanical standpoint, unless you wish to be a focused blaster, or possibly some kind of very focused in-combat summoner/buffer

No. The main reason to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard is not having to prepare spells, just choose them on the fly. A lot of players don't enjoy having to make the choice of prepared spells every morning, and really prefer being able to use them as needed. Remember, you're not trying to "win" DnD, your trying to have fun.

[Squark]

No. The main reason to play a Sorcerer over a Wizard is not having to prepare spells, just choose them on the fly. A lot of players don't enjoy having to make the choice of prepared spells every morning, and really prefer being able to use them as needed. Remember, you're not trying to "win" DnD, your trying to have fun.

See #1. Unless he was talking about having to protect the book from the DM. But that wasn't the way I interpreted it, at least.

[Jormengand]

"Our ability to prepare spells is our greatest strength, but it is also our greatest weakness." :vaarsuvius:

For the reason that was shown in the comic, a wizard can easily lose to a sorcerer if both of them believe that they're going to be fighting, say several lower-level fighters.

Also, a sorcerer based around counterspelling wins on pure number of spell slots per day.

[Segev]

One thing that I always like to toy with when these sorts of questions come up is to approach it from a different angle. Accepting that wizards are, as written, "better" than sorcerers (however one defines this), what changes would have to be made to the sorcerer to allow them to remain a spontaneous caster that can nonetheless stand side-by-side with the wizard in Tier 1?

The primary thing that seems to aid wizards is the ability to alter load-out entirely, day-to-day, especially since they can use down-time to have a "cost-less" casting of long-term spells such as Planar Binding.

In real play, I have seen wizards wind up wishing they had one (or a few) more castings of given spells, which is where Sorcerers shine: they can finagle how many of a given spell they've got that day on the fly. But in long-term optimization, that is generally weaker than the Wizard's capabilities, particularly when wands and scrolls come in.

[D_Lord]

If the same items rule is in place, the sorcerer. People forget the wizard has a limit of spells they normally get a level however with other items they can learn more. In these case, they have only the spells they would by level, if they have more than that means the sorcerer has ways of casting those spells too, just with a magic item check, instead of spell slot.

[Thanatosia]

They are very close. I think their spellcasting systems are about equally balanced, wich gives Wizards a minor advantage due to their bonus feats and the fact that the peripheral benefits of a high int score (more skillpoints) is more useful then the bonuses of a high cha score (small flat boost to social skills). There are ways to increase the utility of the cha score such as dipping into paladin or cleric, but generally the cost of doing so is not worth the results.

I actually prefer the spellcasting system of sorcerors to Wizards because they get more spells per day and dont have to assign them in advance. It's fairly easy to get scrolls and other magic items to cover the odd situational spell, it's much harder to make up for only being able to cast a given spell once or twice between rest sessions on an ongoing basis IMO.

And that is probably the biggest divider between them, is your campaign one where your DM basically lets you get away with resting between every encounter 'the 15min dungeon crawl' - then the wizard pulls way, way ahead. If your DM is active in making sure you don't get a full recharge every encounter, the Sorceror begins to shine much more strongly.

[The Mentalist]

Also, a sorcerer based around counterspelling wins on pure number of spell slots per day.

Not strictly true. A focused specialist wizard gets more slots than a Sorcerer, he also gives up three schools to do it, but it could happen.

As for the question: Even if they had identical spells and the wizard hadn't gone scroll hunting the Wizard gets 4 bonus feats and metamagic is nice.

Most of the time it does come down to spells with versatility breaking the game more than numbers. I would say for practical "oh bloody hell" purposes where you have no idea what you're facing and the Wizard can't prep a Sorc with a good spell selection could shine but a Wizard with some genre savvy can probably beat him out if they have time re-prep their spells.

With some wands and scrolls the Sorcerer bridges a lot of that gap.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hi...

What is more powerful, by RAW at level 20, with the same items? Wizards or Sorcerers?

This is an extremely unfair presumption, considering there's a specific item (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) that makes a Sorcerer absolutely better than a Wizard, which a Wizard wouldn't get much benefit from. Granted a Wizard could also use that same trick and spontaneously convert prepared spells into spells that the runestaff contains, but it's not as much an improvement to him as it is for a Sorcerer. Sort of reminds me of when Gandalf is walking up to Theoden and Gríma Wormtongue tells his thugs, "I told you to take the wizard's staff!"

[Ellye]

A Wizard is generally a more versatile, more useful and all-around more powerful character in a larger scale.

But a Sorcerer actually stands a very decent chance against a Wizard on a one-on-one fight, specially if the Wizard wasn't expecting such a fight when he prepared his spells for the day.

Either way, at level 20, both characters are world-shattering powerhouses. Either one of them could easily rip a campaign apart.

[Chronos]

That runestaff trick assumes that you can remove properties from an Ancestral Relic to make room for new ones. That might be the case (the RAW doesn't explicitly say you can't), but I can easily see a DM ruling otherwise.

As for the sorcerer getting more spells per day, well, yes and no. At any odd-numbered level, a specialist wizard (not even focused specialist) will have more useful spells per day, due to having access to an entire level of spells (and associated bonus spells from ability score and specialization) that the sorcerer lacks.

[Jormengand]

At any odd-numbered level,

Which is funny, because I thought we were dealing with 20th level.

[Segev]

As a thought experiment...

Given that Sorcerers (and other spontcasters) typically get the 1-level-delay on spell level acquisition because it was assumed they'd be MORE powerful than their prepped counterparts without it, what would happen if it were inverted? If Sorcerers got 2nd level spells at 2nd, rather than 3rd level, and 3rd level spells at 4th, rather than 5th, and 9th level spells at level 16?

[Ansem]

Wizard, 95% of the time or more, is better then sorcerer.

Always amazes me how people make this easy mistake.

Simple rule is:
Wizard -> DPS
Sorcerer -> (de)buff / Controller

The Wizard gains specialized school which you need... and earlier access to spells, also the free metamagic bonus feats add to this power, but it lacks access to the right spells at the right time if it can't do or has not prepared damage.
A Sorcerer always has the right spell for the right moment, it may not know all spells but it doesn't need to either.
And a key failure in the Wizard is dependancy on prepared spell and not using a spell because you didnt need it or couldnt use it and going to rest with that one is a spell slot wasted.

Damage is always useful, but utility is for the right spell/right moment combination and you'll rarely have enough information to prepare yourself completely.
Even if your DM gives you intel on the complete situation ahead, encounters are a variable as they will never go completely as expected (both enemy and allies).

So there is no real winner.
And I know the Wizard knows more spells, but the endless debate of efficiency vs versatility, efficiency wins. It's better to be good and excel at a few things and let others fill the rest of the parts that need to be done, than be able to do everything but never good at even one thing.
I bet I can make a Sorcerer build who'd easily kill a Wizard of higher level and the Wizard won't be able to kill the Sorcerer so easily, as he can't be prepared enough. Because reality is, in an encounter, a Sorcerer knows more spells than a Wizard.

I hope you understand the above message and it gives enough insight in the pros and cons of each class.

My vote goes to Sorcerer since it can fill in more roles and controller/debuff is so much more valuable than plain DPS. An enemy can block the Wizards ability to prevent him from casting spells or doing damage. A sorcerer still has plenty up his thumb to work around this.

[Felandria]

Wizards know magic.

Sorcerers ARE magic.

(Go Team Sorcies!)

[The Mentalist]

As a thought experiment...

Given that Sorcerers (and other spontcasters) typically get the 1-level-delay on spell level acquisition because it was assumed they'd be MORE powerful than their prepped counterparts without it, what would happen if it were inverted? If Sorcerers got 2nd level spells at 2nd, rather than 3rd level, and 3rd level spells at 4th, rather than 5th, and 9th level spells at level 16?

It would give them the early edge and they would be cool to play but as for 2nds at 2nd that may be a bit much, maybe if you just reversed when the Sorcerer and the Wizard gained new spell levels.

The real problem though isn't when they get access to the higher level spells though as that's only a temporary boost. It's a lot more about how straight-jacketed they are by spell selection and a Wizard is the arcane with an ability to re-write his spell-list for some gold + time.

Now Psionics on the other hand...

[Coidzor]

Which is funny, because I thought we were dealing with 20th level.

Indeed, I believe it was some kind of illustration of the flaws of looking only at 20th level in a vacuum or something.

[Story]

One thing that I always like to toy with when these sorts of questions come up is to approach it from a different angle. Accepting that wizards are, as written, "better" than sorcerers (however one defines this), what changes would have to be made to the sorcerer to allow them to remain a spontaneous caster that can nonetheless stand side-by-side with the wizard in Tier 1?

The primary thing that seems to aid wizards is the ability to alter load-out entirely, day-to-day, especially since they can use down-time to have a "cost-less" casting of long-term spells such as Planar Binding.

In real play, I have seen wizards wind up wishing they had one (or a few) more castings of given spells, which is where Sorcerers shine: they can finagle how many of a given spell they've got that day on the fly. But in long-term optimization, that is generally weaker than the Wizard's capabilities, particularly when wands and scrolls come in.

Perhaps a limited Psychic Reformation ability? Of course you'd have to find a way to make it avoid becoming too powerful.

[Jormengand]

Indeed, I believe it was some kind of illustration of the flaws of looking only at 20th level in a vacuum or something.

Yeah, but I was answering the question.

And spending a good time questioning the answer.

[SinsI]

Hi...

What is more powerful, by RAW at level 20, with the same items? Wizards or Sorcerers?

Why on Earth would a level 20 wizard and sorcerer have the same items? Do we consider Wizards's spellbook to be one of those items? Without it he is pretty much screwed, and sorcerer don't need that useless luggage.

[angry_bear]

At level 20 they're about even in practice; maybe a slight edge to the sorcerer. Wizards get more spells, but they both have access to the same go to methods of breaking the game. Chances are though in a fight it depends on who wins initiative.

[Lord Raziere]

Hi...

What is more powerful, by RAW at level 20, with the same items? Wizards or Sorcerers?

depends highly on what spells they both took. spell list is everything here. they are basically almost the same class, the wizard just has the potential to learn more spells than the sorcerer. assuming that the wizard doesn't get any extra spells from scribing them down? it still can go either way depending on what spells they selected.

I mean lets say they both knew disintegrate, and didn't bother to cast any spell to defend against it beforehand. who would win would probably come down to whoever wins initiative and fires disintegrate first.

but thats assuming that is a straight up battle, if they are illusionists or enchanters or whatever, this fight can go in many different ways, and if they are different kinds of casters? then it really starts getting unknown, because their capabilities vary widely, you'd have to get highly specific about what kind of sorcerer and what kind of wizard is fighting one another, and HOW they are fighting one another. a political scheming duel is different from outright blaster battle or a summoner war.

sure, optimized says that the wizard wins most of the time but, realistically nothing is ever truly optimized.

[Emperor Tippy]

A wizard can completely re-pick all of his prepared spells with a single standard action (or a Swift if they really want to) at level 17+. Without cheese it is a bit expensive but with a bit of shapechange abuse it has no cost.

A Sorcerer has no such capability.

[Astral Avenger]

A wizard can completely re-pick all of his prepared spells with a single standard action (or a Swift if they really want to) at level 17+. Without cheese it is a bit expensive but with a bit of shapechange abuse it has no cost.

A Sorcerer has no such capability.

wait, what? I thought that didn't work until they hit epic :smallconfused: How are you doing that at 17th?

[Clistenes]

A wizard can completely re-pick all of his prepared spells with a single standard action (or a Swift if they really want to) at level 17+. Without cheese it is a bit expensive but with a bit of shapechange abuse it has no cost.

A Sorcerer has no such capability.

Explain how to do it with and without cheese.

[Eldariel]

Perhaps a limited Psychic Reformation ability? Of course you'd have to find a way to make it avoid becoming too powerful.

Well, they can Limited Wish Psychic Reformation already under the transparency.

[Chronos]

Be warned that Tippy's standard of "without cheese" is a little different from most folks'.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A wizard can completely re-pick all of his prepared spells with a single standard action (or a Swift if they really want to) at level 17+. Without cheese it is a bit expensive but with a bit of shapechange abuse it has no cost.

A Sorcerer has no such capability.

Actually, a Sorcerer with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff can switch which spells it grants any time he wants (in the area of a consecrate or hallow spell). As long as the resulting item has a value exactly equal to what it started out as, the time it takes to do this gets multiplied by zero. So get an item that projects a continuous Consecrate effect for 12k gp, even put it on the ancestral relic, and a Sorcerer can completely repick what spells his Runestaff gives him as no-action, as a free action would be greater than zero. This is available from 3rd level if you want to buy a few Oil of Consecrate or get a party member to cast it, ~8th level to get it as a continuous effect.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, they can Limited Wish Psychic Reformation already under the transparency.

No, they can't.

First Transparency only covers a very limited number of things, it is not anywhere near as broad as most people make it out to be.

Second, Psychic Reformation doesn't let a Sorcerer repick his spells known by the RAW.


wait, what? I thought that didn't work until they hit epic :smallconfused: How are you doing that at 17th?

No cost way.

Shapechange, Shift into Zodar form, use Wish Su to replicate Spell Engine.

Casting Time comes from Wish, which is a standard action. Since Wish is Su the XP cost it ignored.

As a swift action, Quickened Wish with a greater rod of quicken to do the same thing, this time you eat the 5,000 XP cost.



Actually, a Sorcerer with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff can switch which spells it grants any time he wants (in the area of a consecrate or hallow spell). As long as the resulting item has a value exactly equal to what it started out as, the time it takes to do this gets multiplied by zero. So get an item that projects a continuous Consecrate effect for 12k gp, even put it on the ancestral relic, and a Sorcerer can completely repick what spells his Runestaff gives him as no-action, as a free action would be greater than zero. This is available from 3rd level if you want to buy a few Oil of Consecrate or get a party member to cast it, ~8th level to get it as a continuous effect.

Requires that the Sorcerer have a Good alignment. Can be removed with a simple Greater Dispel Magic + Shatter combination. Or a Selective Antimagic Field + Shatter combination. Or a Disjunction.

[Story]

Second, Psychic Reformation doesn't let a Sorcerer repick his spells known by the RAW.



Well by RAW it doesn't, but it is a pretty reasonable houserule. And if we're discussing how to fix the class, we're already pretty far into ask the DM territory.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well by RAW it doesn't, but it is a pretty reasonable houserule. And if we're discussing how to fix the class, we're already pretty far into ask the DM territory.

The OP asked for most powerful by RAW.

RAW a Sorcerer can't reselect his Spells Known with Psychic Reformation, or in point of fact any other method.

You can bypass this with a runestaff but that has its own downsides.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Requires that the Sorcerer have a Good alignment. Can be removed with a simple Greater Dispel Magic + Shatter combination. Or a Selective Antimagic Field + Shatter combination. Or a Disjunction.

Only a few specific builds require a nongood alignment, though it does exclude a Mindbender dip. Plus that's a basic good alignment and not an exalted status or anything with a code of conduct.

If you make it an intelligent item then none of those things can remove it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Only a few specific builds require a nongood alignment, though it does exclude a Mindbender dip. Plus that's a basic good alignment and not an exalted status or anything with a code of conduct.
Still limitations. And the OP said identical items for both the Wizard and Sorcerer. I find that a bit stupid but it was the question.

Incidentally, a Wizard can do the same exact thing with a Runestaff if he wants to (and actually has more feats to burn doing it than a Sorcerer does).


If you make it an intelligent item then none of those things can remove it.
No, but it becomes a valid target for the Transport Travelers clause of Wish. And now your Ancestral Relic is sitting inside the sun.

[Jormengand]

A wizard can completely re-pick all of his prepared spells with a single standard action (or a Swift if they really want to) at level 17+. Without cheese it is a bit expensive but with a bit of shapechange abuse it has no cost.

A Sorcerer has no such capability.

And a kobold psion can have infinite stats. For the purposes of this debate, I would assume that the said wizard and sorcerer aren't meant to be stupidly high-OP.

[Emperor Tippy]

And a kobold psion can have infinite stats. For the purposes of this debate, I would assume that the said wizard and sorcerer aren't meant to be stupidly high-OP.

This isn't stupidly high OP.

[DeAnno]

Even without the Runestaff trick, its worth noting Sorcs are much more playable with access to Knowstones. They are a Dragon Mag wonderous item that gives a spell known for the price of 1000*Level^2.

Also FWIW I doubt any actual serious game has ever existed where the Zodar trick was legal and Psychic Reformation into spells was not. I also believe there is an online wizards article of some sort which talks about using Limited Wish to change spells known, but I don't have the link or the specifics.

[Emperor Tippy]

Also FWIW I doubt any actual serious game has ever existed where the Zodar trick was legal and Psychic Reformation into spells was not.
Plenty. I got tired of people thinking transparency was super broad and now generally don't allow things like Psychic Reformation to change spells known, and I have no real problem with Zodar wish's so long as the PC's stay within my own wealth rules. And if you break WBL by too much you blow up and your soul is eradicated.


I also believe there is an online wizards article of some sort which talks about using Limited Wish to change spells known, but I don't have the link or the specifics.

That article gives it as an example of something that the DM could allow, it doesn't actually add it to the list of valid Limited Wish options.

[Chronos]

Well, it depends on how you interpret "...or other effects of comparable power".

And honestly, you'd probably have a hard time finding games where zodars even exist. How many people have a copy of, what is it, MM4?

[DeAnno]

Not strictly true. A focused specialist wizard gets more slots than a Sorcerer, he also gives up three schools to do it, but it could happen.


Also, about the Counterspelling War, if Greater Arcane Fusion and Battlemagic Perception are in play the Sorc wins hard by spamming the BMPs into the 4th level Fusion slot every round and getting free action counterspells. Wizards usually have better defenses and in general like to work through proxies, but if both the Wizard and Sorcerer are locked (warded...) in a room the Wizard is kind of in a bad way.

[Astral Avenger]

Thinking about it some more, both are perma-mind-blanked & astral projected from a deplane of their own making, probably with a clone or two as backup, so the real question is who can get epic scrying first to actually find the other one.

[Harbinger]

Wizards know more spells and can change them every day, so wizards.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Ok re we talking "usefulness in the myriad situations of a D&D game" or "Who wins in a bare knuckle brawl"?

Because in the many situations that could arise in a D&D game a Wizard is best able to prepare for every eventuality and a sorcerer generally isnt

In a bare knuckle brawl a Wizard not only knew the fight was coming but knew the Sorcs spell list and prepared accordingly