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View Full Version : Breaking the Action Economy Back in My Favor? (or, a 1v3 fight)



ChaoticDitz
2013-09-29, 02:07 PM
Hey guys! Here today with a predicament from one of my two IRL gaming groups, both of which I am a player of.

Last time, I came to you guys with how to screw over another player (and become an eternal jerkwad in the process). Because that character is very much the kind of person to do that, and I had motivation. But now I'm in an opposite predicament.

No, I'm not about to say that another player is trying to screw me over. I got advice here about doing bad things to other characters, so I'm man enough to accept karmic retribution. Actually, what I need help with is protecting my party.

Allow me to explain. This group is Level 18 right now, and we've been playing all the way from level 2. It's been an eventful and fun campaign, and both I and my character have grown very attached to the rest of the party. The party makeup is as follows: Me, a Dragonborn Gray Elf Transmutation Wizard/Master Specialist/IoSV with Enchantment and Necromancy banned; a Human Psion/Meditant/Crystal Master; a Dragonborn Half-Ogre Warblade (planning to go straight 20 for capstone); a Gold Dwarf Spontaneous-Domain Cleric/Malconvoker/Contemplative/Thaumaturgist; and a Strongheart Halfling Ardent/Good-version Psychic Assassin/Slayer.

Back two levels ago, we encountered the BBEGs of the campaign as we were attempting to save an alternate universe's Material Plane from being sacrificed to revive Krastis, some sort of Fiend with the power to destroy the essence of magic itself. So yeah, being a party made of casters and manifesters, alignment wouldn't even matter, we don't want that thing revived.

The BBEGs were, surprisingly, not some terrifying embodiment of everything vile and wicked, but actually three Human Wizards (likely with PrCs, but I'm unsure). Although I don't have access to actual stats, we found out during our following fight against them that one of them generally focuses on using transmutation and conjuration (both effects and summons) for battlefield control and then spams save-or-Xs, one of them uses complex illusion tactics and chains of Contingencies to trip up the opponent (read: us) while also spamming Save-or-X, and the third wizard uses several tricks to break the action economy and uses a mixture of defensive spells, to protect himself and his allies from things we try to do to them in between dealing with the summons and illusions and crap, and area-effect spells for whenever some of us end up clustering to cover each other during the fight (only really a problem for the Slayer and the Warblade, since they're the melee'rs).

Most of the campaign up to this point had been much less optimized than this on the DM's side, so we weren't expecting nearly such a powerful onslaught of magical lockdown (most of our high-end opponents up to that point were Sorcerers with decently strong minions and stuff). Despite the fact that both sides started the battle totally fresh, we ended up way on the losing end, and I had to magically cover for the entire team except the Cleric just to keep our entire party from getting slaughtered, preventing us from taking the offense against them in any meaningful way. Thankfully for us, the Psion managed to persuade the group not to freak out and fight blindly, so we were able to survive by the skin of our teeth in the protracted battle by conserving our spell slots/power points, maxing out at about the same time our opponents ran out of juice. (Yeah, the fight lasted for over 40 in-game minutes; Too many hours IRL for me to remember them exactly).

Needless to say, I could've been of more use in that fight if the weaker members of the party weren't a concern, and... To be frank, I don't want them to die. Both in-character and out, I just really want to keep the party safe from these guys.

At the moment, we're back on the regular Material Plane, protected completely from their attempts to use Divinations on us, but they also have some strong Divination blockers; only thing I've been able to discern is the building they're generally in (not even sure if they're usually there, what with how easy Rope Trick and the like are). Just that that's their home-base. I know that it has Anti-Magic layered and inverted Plane-locked walls (basically, things can Plane Shift/Gate/DimensionDoor/etc. in, but not out). That's about all the information I've got.

So, here's what I need help with. Given my spell repertoire (some super-cheesy stuff is banned, but most of it's there, so say anything and I'll see how it works; I have nearly every spell I could access from non-third party and non-Dragon magazine) and basically half of the party's WBL for magic items and the like, how can I break the action economy hard enough to be able to match up against three powerful wizards at once with no party help? I just want to teleport in, have ourselves a crazy fight, and get back out without the party knowing, because them getting involved will likely end with their souls being destroyed or otherwise locked where there's no chance to revive them.

I can also reasonably assume I'll get some buffs before-hand from the party if I simply say I'm going out and want to be safe in case I should "just happen" to get involved with those wizards. Of course, the Cleric is the only one with any real buffs, since the Psion doesn't deal much in that area and the other two have to focus on doing everything in their power simply to stay relevant around three high-level casters.

Thanks in advance for any advice! :)

LogosDragon
2013-09-29, 03:08 PM
That's unnecessarily noble of you. You're the wizard! Let the silly mortals take the hit for you!

If you want an idea to take them out with lots of cool points involved, Two-Wand Fighting, metamagic-reduced Quickened Magic Bullet Wands at CL 18 with Empower Wands feat (I believe that's what it's called; uses more charges but makes wands more powerful?). Suddenly, you have a Force Gatling Gun.

Now, that won't actually win, and against that caliber of wizards, it probably won't even let you go out in style. But I have no idea how you can win this, so I just wanted to post the above idea. Maybe Time Stop -> Greater Teleport in -> Disjunction? If I remember correctly, crafted Contingencies can be disjoined, so that might be enough for you to out-play them. I really don't know otherwise, though.

Emperor Tippy
2013-09-29, 03:22 PM
Well first, Shapechange into a Zodar and use Wish to get a Scroll of Ice Assassin of X where X is each of the human wizards.

Use those scrolls and order the Ice Assassins to tell you absolutely everything about the BBEG's capabilities and defenses. Or to just lower their defenses and then Mind Rape the Ice Assassins so that you know everything.

Next you want to find a creature with more than 20 HD and the ability to cast Anti-Magic Field. A Solar works. Now make an Ice Assassin of the monster. Then use Psychic Reformation or Embrace/ Shun the Dark Chaos to give it the feats Selective Spell and Permanent Emanation: Selective Anti-Magic Field (ignoring you). Selective Planar Bubble with a Dead Magic and time locked demi-plane is better but getting the appropriate monsters is more of a pain.

Now run off enough copies of said monster to completely blanket the entire enemy fortress. Then have them all Wish themselves into place to blanket the whole fortress. Now invade, you are the only one who gets to use any magic, winning should now be trivial.

LogosDragon
2013-09-29, 03:34 PM
Ok, everyone, go home, Tippy won the thread again.

Now I'm envisioning a world where wizards do this kind of thing as a matter of triviality... Oh wait, the Tippyverse already exists. :|

ChaoticDitz
2013-09-29, 11:58 PM
That is... I just...

Tippy, I think you just blocked the chance of me getting any more responses on this :smalleek: Darn you. While I appreciate the Tippyverse invading my world and being helpful in its own sadistic way, I think I'm going to keep trying to find an option that doesn't involve me never being allowed to game with this group again. Seriously, thank you, though.

Red Rubber Band
2013-09-30, 02:50 AM
Lol. You know it's going to be over the top and get you banned at a regular table when Tippy starts off with "First, Shapechange into a Zodar". :smalltongue:

TuggyNE
2013-09-30, 03:09 AM
Lol. You know it's going to be over the top and get you banned at a regular table when Tippy starts off with "First, Shapechange into a Zodar". :smalltongue:

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

Red Rubber Band
2013-09-30, 04:14 AM
Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

Lol :smalltongue:

Maybe
Me: You know it'll be banned at a regular table when Tippy-
DM: No.
Me: But I-
DM: No.

Astral Avenger
2013-09-30, 12:22 PM
Figure out if there are any demiliches on planes other than the material plane
Gate one in.
Couple rounds of buffing
Teleport it to your three wizard friends
It either wins or your spell expires.
Pay demilich with the souls of however many of the three wizards it kills
Rinse and repeat


Alternately:

Become a lich
Become a demilich
Hide phylactery on a plane you made with selective dead magic/other cheezy stuff. Also about 1000000000000 identical looking things, just to piss off anyone looking for it
Buff up (including astral projection)
Gate in and blast them
Loot the smouldering remains of their tower
Rinse and repeat.


Alternate plan 2:

Craft a self resetting trap that summons something decently powerful (SM IV-VI range should do)
Craft a self resetting trap where the first one summons the creatures, that teleports whatever springs the trap to a predetermined location (aka the other 3 wizard's place)
Find a way to set off the first trap every half hour or more.
Wait a week
Attack when the other three wizards have no spells and haven't slept for a week.

ChaoticDitz
2013-09-30, 07:37 PM
Gate idea: Seems good, I might even try that one. Demilich would certainly help even the odds.

Lich idea: Jeez, if I was gonna be Evil about it, I'd just throw my party members in and get the wizards from far away before they realize I'm even part of the fight. Though admittedly hilarious idea to scatter fake phylacteries about. Though wouldn't the whole Dead Magic deal prevent me from reforming at my phylactery if I died anyway...?

Trap plan: Wizards happen to be slightly smarter than your average bear. They could very easily leave and create another similar place elsewhere. Or Planar Bind a powerful bodyguard. Or any number of things, really. I don't know their capabilities well enough to trust this plan.

Astral Avenger
2013-09-30, 08:22 PM
Gate idea: Seems good, I might even try that one. Demilich would certainly help even the odds.
Glad to help.


Lich idea: Jeez, if I was gonna be Evil about it, I'd just throw my party members in and get the wizards from far away before they realize I'm even part of the fight. Though admittedly hilarious idea to scatter fake phylacteries about. Though wouldn't the whole Dead Magic deal prevent me from reforming at my phylactery if I died anyway...?

There is a good lich in Libris Mortis, and demilich doesn't specify alignment :smallbiggrin: The dead magic thing is a selective dead magic, so you can cast (and reform at your phylactory), but others can't (and their magic items are just masterwork whatever). I'm not sure about how exactly you set it up, I believe it is done with the genisis spell, based on the ambiguous "reflecting most any desire he or she can visualize" clause of the spell. Alternately, you can use Tippy's method to have a selective anti-magic field around you at all times (I think, I'm not sure how much of a handicap it would be to do it to yourself, or if its impossible for some reason) Also, if you're looking for other liches to summon/bribe into helping you, I give you this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15855355&postcount=1).

Trap plan: Wizards happen to be slightly smarter than your average bear. They could very easily leave and create another similar place elsewhere. Or Planar Bind a powerful bodyguard. Or any number of things, really. I don't know their capabilities well enough to trust this plan.

Trap plan v2:
1) find something you can make a trap to summon that can teleport
2) give it orders to grab any papers/spell components/ other small but valuable things it can and then teleport as far away in a random direction as it can.
3) push it into a teleport trap (as before)
4) laugh as wizards can't just pack up and move 'cause their stuff is scattered across a huge area.