[PF] Battle Oracle without Skill at Arms

[YWQMD]

Is that a horrible idea?

I'm wanting to build a Battle Oracle without taking the Skill at Arms revelation. Let me attempt to justify it. I want go with Human, take Racial Heritage for Ancient Lorekeeper, and pick up spells that are utility/buffs/Black Tentacles. Also wanting to go with Combat Reflexes and a Longspear to poke all who dare to approach me. Figure that I could keep a Morningstar on hand for backup.

We're starting at fifth level, so I'm thinking of going with this-

STR: 17 [+2/Human, +1 at fourth, for 20 total]
DEX: 14
CON: 13
INT: 7
WIS: 7
CHA: 15

Oracle 1: Racial Heritage (for Ancient Lorekeeper), Improved Initiative, Weapon Mastery - Longspear [Revelation]
Oracle 3: Combat Reflexes, War Sight [Revelation]
Oracle 5: Power Attack

I'm hoping that this build makes sense. I'm mainly trying to bypass Skill at Arms since I don't want Full Plate all that much. I see myself going with a Mithral Breastplate, which tops out at 11 AC (+6 armor and +5 max dex). A Mithral Fullplate maxes out at 12 AC (+9 armor and +3 max dex). If that math is all wrong, please correct me. But I don't see 1 AC being worth more movement.

So I'm wondering, does this build seems reasonable? Or is it going to be horrible for reasons that I'm not yet aware of?

[grarrrg]

There's nothing wrong with not wanting/needing Skill at Arms.
The two main reasons to take it are for the Martial Weapon profs, and Heavy Armor prof.

Medium armor can be just as good, and better in some cases that Heavy, as you've said.

The only other reason is for the Martial profs. Which are slightly better than simples, but by no means "uber awesome" in comparison. At most you're looking at 1 avg. damage lost, and maybe a semi-useful bonus.

So you should be fine with what you have.


Out of curiosity, what Curse are you going with?

[Squirrel_Dude]

I've never really used heavy armor past early levels, when I'd rather have mithral medium, so you should be fine. Beyond that, the morningstar does 1d8 damage, and there the longspear has Reach, so you don't necessarily need skill at arms.

It's nice, but you also have spells, so you should be fine.

[YWQMD]

Happy that I'm not crazy for wanting to go hamburgers with simple weapons.

I plan on going with the Haunted Curse, since the spells it gives are pretty robust.

On a related note, how well would a familiar pair with this sort of Oracle? I sort of want to bump Improved Initiative back to 7 and pick up Focused Study at first level, to get into the Arcane Bloodline. For something like-

Oracle 7 - Improved Initiative, Surprising Charge [Revelation]
Oracle 8 - Improved Critical (Longspear) [Revelation]
Oracle 9 - Eldritch Heritage [Arcane Bloodline - Familiar]
Oracle 11 - Improved Familiar, Battlefield Clarity [Revelation]
Oracle 12 - Greater Weapon Focus (Longspear) [Revelation]
Oracle 13 - Divine Interference
Oracle 15 - Quicken Spell, Iron Skin [Revelation]
Oracle 17 - Improved Eldritch Heritage [Arcane Bloodline - New Arcana]
Oracle 19 - (what to put here for a last feat?), Combat Healer [Revelation]

Noticing that my feats are pretty light on Metamagic, but I'm hoping that won't be an issue as long as I focus on spells that don't rock saves. I'm also obviously pretty light on martial feats, but I feel like the Battle Revelations pick up the slack there.

Is a familiar a good idea? Just, being Haunted at all, I want to use wands/rods eventually. And having a little friend that can UMD for me, while throwing SLAs around, seems decent.

Again, wondering if I'm on the right track here.

[avr]

Oracles get revelations at 1st, 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th levels. You seem to have added revelations at 8th & 12th as well. I think this is a mistake.

Nevermind, the Weapon Mastery revelation you took at 1st is paying off.

Just a thought though, if you can squeeze in the Pushing Assault feat you might find it useful.

I'm sure your non-Haunted familiar can handle wand duties.

[YWQMD]

Pushing Assault looks pretty solid, but I don't want to push other feats back. Though maybe our game won't even get to 19 (likely), so the 19th level feat may never be an issue. Maybe Furious Focus would be decent for 19, should I get there. Or Great Fortitude/Iron Will.

Also wondering about my spell list from the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype. I'm thinking something along these lines, and I'm torn in a few places. Hoping for help with finalizing the list, and I'd like to know if I overlooked any spells that would help this build.

Prestidigitation (2nd), Enlarge Person (4th), Invisibility (6th), Sleet Storm/Haste (8th), Black Tentacles(10th), Overland Flight (12th), Contingency (14th), Grasping Hand/Project Image (16th), Form of the Dragon III (18th)

[stack]

Remember that haunted is asking the dm to send a disarm-focused build against you.

[avr]

Forget Haste, you're getting Blessing of Fervor at the same level.

Edit: also, you'll like this. You don't (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c) need the Racial Heritage feat any more.

Info courtesy of Psyren.

[YWQMD]

Remember that haunted is asking the dm to send a disarm-focused build against you.

Knowing my DM, that's is a very real possibility. I expect him to go full Dark Souls and murder us all.


Forget Haste, you're getting Blessing of Fervor at the same level.

Edit: also, you'll like this. You don't (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9r7c) need the Racial Heritage feat any more.

Info courtesy of Psyren.

So what you're saying is that Half-Elf just got way better? I assumed that Half-Elf would have to burn a feat on Racial Heritage, putting it a feat behind Human. But now I can just swap Skill Focus for a weapon proficiency at first level, and then pick up Skill Focus anyways for my beloved familiar?

Going Half-Elf means losing Focused Study and the bonus skill points to get into a trip weapon, and perhaps pick up Maneuver Mastery at 7 . . . I'm intrigued.

If my DM lets me take Fauchard I might go that route instead.

And speaking of disarm, is it worth pursuing as a combat maneuver? Or is tripping still where it's at?

Edit: And good call on Blessing of Fervor. Totally forgot about that. Even though I just cast it in a game a few weeks back, leading to all kinds of bloodshed.

[avr]

Disarm's OK when your enemies wield weapons. Most undead, animals, dragons, aberrations etc aren't troubled by it.

I'd just move all your planned feats up one - if there are any which can't, then you slip in whatever you couldn't fit in to the build previously.

[stack]

Disarm's OK when your enemies wield weapons. Most undead, animals, dragons, aberrations etc aren't troubled by it.

I'd just move all your planned feats up one - if there are any which can't, then you slip in whatever you couldn't fit in to the build previously.

Disarming is great when you are the dm and the player can't draw weapon quickly and they fly away when dropped, per the haunted curse.

[YWQMD]

Disarming is great when you are the dm and the player can't draw weapon quickly and they fly away when dropped, per the haunted curse.

I get the feeling you don't like the Haunted curse . . .

With the recent Half-Elf buff, is there any reason to not go Half-Elf as an Oracle? Between Ancient Lorekeeper and Paragon Surge, it seems like it would always be the best option for any Oracle.

[stack]

Its fine if you focus on casting, but risky for melee, so it wouldn't be my first choice for a battle oracle. I rather like it for casting-focused oracles.

[grarrrg]

With the recent Half-Elf buff, is there any reason to not go Half-Elf as an Oracle? Between Ancient Lorekeeper and Paragon Surge, it seems like it would always be the best option for any Oracle.

Short answer: Paragon Surge requires more than just the Spell to make best use of.
Ancient Lorekeeper is not the most optimal choice for some builds.

To make good use of Paragon Surge you need to take 2 other feats (Skill Focus, and Eldritch Heritage).
To make fully optimal use requires being able to Quicken Paragon Surge at 'cheaper' than +4.
Also, Paragon Surge doesn't really "pay off" until higher levels anyway, so depending on the campaign, you may be better off skipping it.

Ancient Lorekeeper prevents you from taking any/every other Oracle Archetype except for Black-Blooded.
The Bonus Skills gained/lost is pretty minor (unless you're Knowledge checking Elves a lot).
The Bonus spells, while quite nice, do come with a 1 level penalty, and some Mysteries have Wizard spells with no level penalty, and/or Oracle spells with a level Reduction (Lore Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) is a good example of both).

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'd argue that Paragon surge is still helpful for someone that's entering melee. Take combat expertise and then cast a spell to use any maneuver without provoking an AOO, etc. Same can be said for critical feats later on. Still useful in a pinch for getting you access to spells that you normally wouldn't have access to. Cleric spell list if filled with situationally useful spells, after all.

[YWQMD]

To make good use of Paragon Surge you need to take 2 other feats (Skill Focus, and Eldritch Heritage).
To make fully optimal use requires being able to Quicken Paragon Surge at 'cheaper' than +4.
Also, Paragon Surge doesn't really "pay off" until higher levels anyway, so depending on the campaign, you may be better off skipping it.

Ancient Lorekeeper prevents you from taking any/every other Oracle Archetype except for Black-Blooded.
The Bonus Skills gained/lost is pretty minor (unless you're Knowledge checking Elves a lot).
The Bonus spells, while quite nice, do come with a 1 level penalty, and some Mysteries have Wizard spells with no level penalty, and/or Oracle spells with a level Reduction (Lore Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) is a good example of both).

Wanting to update where I'm at, and again hoping for input. :smallsmile:

I've played a few sessions with the character, but this post got me thinking. Wondering if I can have my cake and eat it too, if i went with something along these lines.


Dual-Cursed Half-Elf Oracle of Battle

Oracle 1 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard), Weapon Mastery (Weapon Focus - Fauchard) [Revelation]
Oracle 1 - Skill Focus [Knowledge: Planes]
Oracle 3 - Power Attack, Maneuver Mastery [Revelation]
Oracle 5 - Combat Reflexes, Misfortune [Revelation]
Oracle 7 - Eldritch Heritage - Arcane Bond (Compsognathus Familiar), War Sight [Revelation]
Oracle 8 - Improved Critical (Fauchard) [Revelation]
Oracle 9 - Extend Spell
Oracle 11 - Quicken Spell, Surpising Charge [Revelation]
Oracle 12 - Greater Weapon Focus (Fauchard) [Revelation]
Oracle 13 - (Undetermined Metamagic Feat), Fortune [Revelation]
Oracle 15 - Spell Perfection (Paragon Surge), Battlefield Clarity [Revelation]


Misfortune looks pretty solid. Also, my girlfriend is playing a Witch, and since our characters are related in-game it makes sense (we are definitely not related in real life though, that would be weird for obvious reasons). Again, I'm still light on combat feats, but those Battle Revelations are business. Was tripping a bunch of bad dudes in my last game, and that was with a build that hadn't gotten the Maneuver Mastery revelation yet.

Kind of thinking that Improved Familiar isn't something I want to do, as it looks like a pretty decent gold-sink, in terms of stocking it up on wands. Especially since our game doesn't have a ton of gold flying around. Hoping that I can use my familiar to scout around before fights and buff myself up pre-combat. Also wondering how you get the most out of a non-improved familiar.

I'm kind of wanting to go all-in on the Paragon Surge plan though. Could go with the toolbox spellcaster route, picking up Improved Eldritch Heritage or Expanded Arcana on the fly for whatever spell I need.

Also, regarding my 13th level feat, what'd be a good metamagic feat here? Since I need three to pick up Paragon Surge. Thinking maybe Reach Spell for long-range Heal, but not sure.

Regarding curses, thinking of doing Haunted/Tongues, with Haunted advancing. Reasonable or not?