Assumptions about Team Tarquin

[Newwby]

Up until this point we've assumed that Team Tarquin is a well-oiled machine, exactly as Tarquin presented it. Comic 921 suggests a dynamic that is more agitated politically, is it possible that TT has individuals who want nothing more than a simpler life yet are stuck in Tarquin's ever-cycling plan?

Sure they were all great compatriots a few decades back but throw in the recent death of a teammate and the growing instability of a lead party member (if not the absolute leader) and there exists a definite possibility for a mutiny.

[Xelbiuj]

*you've assumed.

Malack's changes little, they're a roundtable, business as usually is in all of their best interests.

[Muenster Man]

I would like a mutiny to be the end of Tarquin (it's a satisfying end to him), however, given the current placement of their party, no one would be able to manipulate the Empire of Blood since Malack is already dead and deposing of Tarquin would only leave them in direct control of two empires instead of three.

Maybe the rest of the party is ready to get out of the business soon, but right now, taking out Tarquin would seem to hurt Tar-co even more than they would be comfortable with.

[Sir_Leorik]

Here's my assumption: unless we are given evidence otherwise, I am working under the assumption that every single member of Team Tarquin are Evil. Other than that, we barely know anything about Miron or Jacinda, and we don't even know Shoulder-Pad Guy's name.

[Bulldog Psion]

I doubt they want a simpler life, or they'd just leave.

It appears to me that they are quite fine with the plan also. It's just that they're allies with independence of thought and action, not servile mooks of Tarquin. It's a partnership, not something where Tarquin says "jump" and they ask "how high?"

And let's be realistic here; there aren't too many people who would give up all that power, pomp, luxury, and wealth willingly, once they had it.

[rbetieh]

You know, I think people have been mis-interpreting this last comic. As far as I can tell, Miron is claiming that Tarquins "Rile up my own son by killing greatsword dude so that he will have to come back and confront me later" plan is not profitable. Which, it isn't. Involving yourself in this fight almost certainly means that a bunch of angry adventurers are going to come knocking on your door eventually, and what exactly do you gain? Best case scenario is a starmetal sword, which he probably can't use.

As for "Auntie" Laurin, she just flat out said "I don't approve of how you raised your first son, and I wont help you mess up this one". A reasonable statement for someone whom Nale must have at one time considered family, from his Auntie comment.

The geo-political ramifications of what they were saying were simply this: if the plan requires constant war, then using any conventional resources on 3 dudes is an awful waste, when you consider that one assassin could fix the problem in a lot less time for a lot less cost.

None of this indicates a fractious relationship at all. This is just reasonable adults disagreeing reasonably. Just the same as Tarquin and Malack.

[F.Harr]

I doubt they want a simpler life, or they'd just leave.

It appears to me that they are quite fine with the plan also. It's just that they're allies with independence of thought and action, not servile mooks of Tarquin. It's a partnership, not something where Tarquin says "jump" and they ask "how high?"

And let's be realistic here; there aren't too many people who would give up all that power, pomp, luxury, and wealth willingly, once they had it.

Why would we start being realistic now?

[Olinser]

Here's my assumption: unless we are given evidence otherwise, I am working under the assumption that every single member of Team Tarquin are Evil. Other than that, we barely know anything about Miron or Jacinda, and we don't even know Shoulder-Pad Guy's name.

Evil is a fairly safe assumption. Miron was shown on-panel torturing a woman into being Tarquin's wife, and Jacinda murdered Monocle Lizard Guy in cold blood. Both are pretty Evil acts.

Every one of them has worked for an extended period of time with Malack, a Lawful Evil Vampire.

Good is right out, and I have a hard time believing any of them is Neutral, Laurin would arguably be a candidate at this point, though her level of sympathy for Malack being killed leans her heavily towards Evil as well.

[Haleth]

Evil is a fairly safe assumption. Miron was shown on-panel torturing a woman into being Tarquin's wife, and Jacinda murdered Monocle Lizard Guy in cold blood. Both are pretty Evil acts.

Every one of them has worked for an extended period of time with Malack, a Lawful Evil Vampire.

Good is right out, and I have a hard time believing any of them is Neutral, Laurin would arguably be a candidate at this point, though her level of sympathy for Malack being killed leans her heavily towards Evil as well.

Keep in mind that although Malack was evil, he was Laurin's friend for a long time. It's reasonable that she would be very upset about his death, especially since Nale deliberately described his death in order to upset her and Tarquin.

[Olinser]

Keep in mind that although Malack was evil, he was Laurin's friend for a long time. It's reasonable that she would be very upset about his death, especially since Nale deliberately described his death in order to upset her and Tarquin.

That's the point. No Good character, and probably no Neutral character, would have ever been friends with a Lawful Evil vampire to begin with.

And before somebody brings up Durkon, unlike Durkon, Laurin was fully aware of Malack's vampirization from the start. The second Durkon realized what Malack was, pretty much his first words were, "And I think I be no brother of yours."

[Trillium]

That's the point. No Good character, and probably no Neutral character, would have ever been friends with a Lawful Evil vampire to begin with.

And before somebody brings up Durkon, unlike Durkon, Laurin was fully aware of Malack's vampirization from the start. The second Durkon realized what Malack was, pretty much his first words were, "And I think I be no brother of yours."

Roy is friends with a Lawful Evil vampire. =P

[Forikroder]

Up until this point we've assumed that Team Tarquin is a well-oiled machine, exactly as Tarquin presented it. Comic 921 suggests a dynamic that is more agitated politically, is it possible that TT has individuals who want nothing more than a simpler life yet are stuck in Tarquin's ever-cycling plan?

Sure they were all great compatriots a few decades back but throw in the recent death of a teammate and the growing instability of a lead party member (if not the absolute leader) and there exists a definite possibility for a mutiny.

Tarquins not the lead they all have equal responsibility


That's the point. No Good character, and probably no Neutral character, would have ever been friends with a Lawful Evil vampire to begin with.

And before somebody brings up Durkon, unlike Durkon, Laurin was fully aware of Malack's vampirization from the start. The second Durkon realized what Malack was, pretty much his first words were, "And I think I be no brother of yours."

lets ignore that Belkars been with the party since day one

Durkon turned on Malack because he recently learned that Malack was a vampire who was eating his friend and was far more involved in Tarquins scheme then he originally though

[Olinser]

Tarquins not the lead they all have equal responsibility



lets ignore that Belkars been with the party since day one

Durkon turned on Malack because he recently learned that Malack was a vampire who was eating his friend and was far more involved in Tarquins scheme then he originally though

Yes - and they all pretty much see Belkar as a cross to bear because he happens to be useful. None of them have ever called him their friend, and none of them are particularly conflicted about the fact that they think the Oracle has told them Belkar is going to die soon. Hell, Roy and Haley had a frank conversation about 'running out the clock' on him. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Contrast that with Laurin having an emotional reaction to Malack's demise.

Belkar isn't their friend and never has been.

[Smolder]

Tarquin is the Elan of his team. His team members treat him with the same barely-tolerating-his-nonsense attitude.

[Kish]

Can we take the references to Malack's, ah, physical state and resulting debate out and replace them with, "Laurin was apparently very fond of someone who planned to turn the continent into a sapient-being cattle farm"?

[Olinser]

Can we take the references to Malack's, ah, physical state and resulting debate out and replace them with, "Laurin was apparently very fond of someone who planned to turn the continent into a sapient-being cattle farm"?

Not really, because we don't have any confirmation she actually knew about it.

Tarquin definitely did, but Malack wasn't going to do it until he was dead, and he seems like the kind of guy that wouldn't see the need to share that information with any of his equally short-lived teammates.

If they did, that's inarguable proof they were all Evil.

[Peelee]

I think the biggest assumption about "Team Tarquin" is that Tarquin is the leader.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes - and they all pretty much see Belkar as a cross to bear because he happens to be useful. None of them have ever called him their friend, and none of them are particularly conflicted about the fact that they think the Oracle has told them Belkar is going to die soon. Hell, Roy and Haley had a frank conversation about 'running out the clock' on him. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Contrast that with Laurin having an emotional reaction to Malack's demise.

Belkar isn't their friend and never has been.

Actually, V came close to referring to Belkar as a friend.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html

[TSED]

Actually, V came close to referring to Belkar as a friend.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html

Interestingly enough, V is definitely neutral, and is still recovering from a dive into the deep end of the alignment pool.

Meaning V is by far the closest to Belkar's alignment in the order, debatably as far removed as Durkula is.

[AKA_Bait]

That's the point. No Good character, and probably no Neutral character, would have ever been friends with a Lawful Evil vampire to begin with.

Consider, though, the amount of time. If Laurian was, say, ?E thirty years ago when she became friends with Malack, it is entirely possible that her alignment migrated a step to ?N in the intervening time even though she was still friends with Malack. Don't you have any old friends that don't mesh well with your current approach to life?


Can we take the references to Malack's, ah, physical state and resulting debate out and replace them with, "Laurin was apparently very fond of someone who planned to turn the continent into a sapient-being cattle farm"?

That's a better argument. Although, do we know that she was aware of that? We know that Tarquin was, but I don't recall that Malack said he discussed it with every member of the team.


That said, ?E is still the most likely outcome. She is still working with a group of people systematically orchestrating wars for the personal gain of herself and her family.

[Forikroder]

Yes - and they all pretty much see Belkar as a cross to bear because he happens to be useful. None of them have ever called him their friend, and none of them are particularly conflicted about the fact that they think the Oracle has told them Belkar is going to die soon. Hell, Roy and Haley had a frank conversation about 'running out the clock' on him. Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Contrast that with Laurin having an emotional reaction to Malack's demise.

Belkar isn't their friend and never has been.

did you jsut not read the last dozen strips?

also Elan and Belkar are quite clearly friends and Belkar and V are getting along better and better

[stavro375]

That's the point. No Good character, and probably no Neutral character, would have ever been friends with a Lawful Evil vampire to begin with.

This I disagree with. I personally don't get what's so important about Malack being a vampire (is there some sort of cultural context I'm missing here?), and secondly -- imagine what Elan would think if Belkar ever died. Even Haley cared enough about "Death's li'l helper" to cart him around when he was incapacitated by some mysterious illness (as far as she knew).



And before somebody brings up Durkon, unlike Durkon, Laurin was fully aware of Malack's vampirization from the start. The second Durkon realized what Malack was, pretty much his first words were, "And I think I be no brother of yours."
Durkon also occupies the extreme end of the Lawful Good pool. Not as extreme as Miko, but certainly far enough that he refused to attack the paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) -- twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) -- and refused to lie to her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html). (To be fair, his actions may have been influenced more by his piety & lawfullness than his goodness)
There's no reason a neutral, or even really pragmatic good, character wouldn't feel bad about the death of a longtime (vampire) colleague.

[Forikroder]

This I disagree with. I personally don't get what's so important about Malack being a vampire (is there some sort of cultural context I'm missing here?), and secondly -- imagine what Elan would think if Belkar ever died. Even Haley cared enough about "Death's li'l helper" to cart him around when he was incapacitated by some mysterious illness (as far as she knew).


Durkon also occupies the extreme end of the Lawful Good pool. Not as extreme as Miko, but certainly far enough that he refused to attack the paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) -- twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) -- and refused to lie to her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html). (To be fair, his actions may have been influenced more by his piety & lawfullness than his goodness)
There's no reason a neutral, or even really pragmatic good, character wouldn't feel bad about the death of a longtime (vampire) colleague.

Elan felt bad about Nale dieing, just because there good doesnt mean they dont care about anyone who isnt

[skim172]

My argument - Team Tarquin is actually a business.

The enterprise: Manipulating the conflict of the Western Continent, for shared returns on profit and influence.

By working together, the members of the Team make a lot of money. That's their business. It's an organized crime racket.

So, I don't think they're friends, so much as they are business partners. They don't have to get along in their personal lives, as long as it doesn't interfere with the revenue stream.

Which suggests that maybe they don't have the same agendas, either. Tarquin has dreams of becoming a grand evil dictator to go down in history - but that's only his personal endgame. Just as Malack's endgame was building a super-mega-death-sacrifice empire. Laurin's motivation is for her daughter to "have a good life far away from all this." I'm thinking that this partnership of theirs is not founded with the goal of realizing Tarquin's megalomaniac dreams - it was founded to provide its members a lot of money and power. Each one has their own individual goals, which - if they don't interfere with the revenue stream - is all fine and good.

"Business before pleasure."

[AKA_Bait]

I'm thinking that this partnership of theirs is not founded with the goal of realizing Tarquin's megalomaniac dreams - it was founded to provide its members a lot of money and power. Each one has their own individual goals, which - if they don't interfere with the revenue stream - is all fine and good.

Good point. Also supporting it is that the other TT members don't appear to consider their resources entirely shared. "Do what you want with your own country's resources, but I see no reason to enable you."

[Darth V.]

I think one possible interpretation of Laurin's line about how she does what they do so that Hannah can have "a good life far away from all this" is that Laurin actually agrees with Tarquin's rationalization that their shadow dictatorship is actually necessary to prevent conflict.

Based on Laurin's skin color, it seems possible that she was born on the western continent herself. If that is the case she might have had experiences with the political violence that make her view an orderly tyranny as a better alternative. When she talks about what she's doing for Hannah, she may also be referring to all future generations of westerners who are being spared the violence.

None of this means I think Laurin is Neutral, I think it most likely that she is a Redcloak-Style LE. Someone who started out with good intentions, but fell too deeply into the ends-justify-the-means. I'm one of the ones who think the friendship with Malack more or less damns them all whether they knew about his genocidal plans or not. All of them knew that Malack murdered innocents in order to survive (legalistic wordplay notwithstanding). To my mind it's possible for good characters to ally with such a creature in the short term in order to accomplish the greater good, and a darker neutral character would probably be able to accept a permanent alliance with it, but I think you'd either have to be evil or deluded to consider it a close friend and Laurin doesn't seem delusional.

Laurin's failing was probably that she bought into Tarquin's views on how to make an omlette. I suspect that the Empire of Tears under Laurin is policed by inspector Javert types who will lay down their lives to protect law abiding citizens and torture you to death if you steal a loaf of bread.

[shadowsedge]

Evil is a fairly safe assumption. Miron was shown on-panel torturing a woman into being Tarquin's wife, and Jacinda murdered Monocle Lizard Guy in cold blood. Both are pretty Evil acts.




Killing someone who deliberately threatens the stability/security of the state is not neccesarily evil. It is more like killing enemy soldiers at war.
But Jacinda stealing the flying carpet from under the feet of its owner clearly qualifies her as evil.

[skim172]

Killing someone who deliberately threatens the stability/security of the state is not neccesarily evil. It is more like killing enemy soldiers at war.
But Jacinda stealing the flying carpet from under the feet of its owner clearly qualifies her as evil.

Killing someone who deliberately threatens the stability/security of your oppressive slave-based despotism is kinda evil. :smallwink:

[Paseo H]

Killing someone who deliberately threatens the stability/security of the state is not neccesarily evil. It is more like killing enemy soldiers at war.
But Jacinda stealing the flying carpet from under the feet of its owner clearly qualifies her as evil.

To quibble a bit, to forestall the quibbling to come:

It was that 1. Jacinda enjoyed herself way too much, and 2. From the context, Tarquin was choosing his words carefully to satisfy Elan, so it was clearly murder and not the just and necessary destruction of a villain.

[Haleth]

To quibble a bit, to forestall the quibbling to come:

It was that 1. Jacinda enjoyed herself way too much, and 2. From the context, Tarquin was choosing his words carefully to satisfy Elan, so it was clearly murder and not the just and necessary destruction of a villain.

I agree. Jacinda has been shown assassinating people twice, and both times she had a smug smile on her face as she did it. It seems like she definitely has no qualms about murder.

[Kish]

Also? Ambassador Gourntok didn't deliberately threaten the security of the state. Just the opposite: He was murdered for trying to inform the ruler of the state that her chief advisor was a traitor, by one of the allies of said traitor.

Suggesting that the Empire of Blood, with all its oppression, cruelty, slavery, and death, is a legitimate society and it's not evil to kill to preserve it would be bad enough. Suggesting that the scam underlying it is either legitimate or a society and it's not evil to kill to preserve that manages to be much worse.

[shadowsedge]

It was that 1. Jacinda enjoyed herself way too much

Okay, thats a valid point.

[Gil-Galad II]

My feelings would be:

Tarquin...LE (yeah, surprising, huh?)

Malack...LE

Jacinda...NE. The evil bit is fairly cut and dry, and I doubt she's Lawful...but also don't think Tarquin would work with her if she was Chaotic - in fact, if she was Chaotic, I doubt she'd work with Tarquin, either.

Miron...NE? I can't really decide between that and LE. The only reason I'd bet on him being Neutral if I had to is that he was happy to play both Bozzok and Haley over Ian's release. Which is kinda weak evidence, I know.

Laurin...LN, but close to LE. Her motivations feel fairly neutral, and she's done the least 'evil' stuff out of the five we've seen. So, I reckon she thinks of herself as LN, but that the LN afterlife will probably force her to defend her actions - and I doubt her case is as strong as Roy's was.

Sword Guy...CG! Why?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png The foil...it'd get terribly dull without a little internal conflict, you know.

[F.Harr]

Killing someone who deliberately threatens the stability/security of your oppressive slave-based despotism is kinda evil. :smallwink:

So you're saying the ends condemn the means?

[Paseo H]

Okay, thats a valid point.

Point was that there's plenty of people here who, whether because they love to hear themselves talk, or they honestly believe the argument they're making, will try to make any point at all sound plausible.

In this case, I was afraid someone would try to say "We don't know the situation, maybe the dude she killed was a monster even more evil than Tarquin or Malack and so she did a good thing!"

Such absurdities, sadly, are not as uncommon on this board as they should be.