character options (3.5/3.0)

[Somensjev]

so far i'm a dragonwrought kobold stp erudite 4/dragonblood sorc 7 (just 7, not 1 through 7)/dragonblood cleric 9 (just nine) and i'm venerable

i realise it's a bit cheesy, but my DM is new, the other players are new, and the DM wants me more powerful (but lower leveled) than the other players, but only if i'm mostly a support caster
if my DM sees anything she doesnt like she'll tell me, and i'll create fluff that restricts it
i spent most of my wbl on a stronghold, and staff, i believe i have 3gp left
she says if i get too overpowered tiamat will come down and destroy me
we're using unique powers/level/day interpretation

my feats are:
dragonwrought
psicrystal affinity
psionic meditation
epic toughness (DM doesnt want me to die)
frail (epic toughness) (she really doesnt want me to die)
inattentive (practiced manifester (erudite))

ability scores are
dex 13 (+1)
con 14 (+2)
str 12 (+1)
int 18 (+4)
wis 18 (+4)
cha 22 (+5)

i was wondering what the playground would suggest for the next few levels?

[Red Fel]

i realise it's a bit cheesy, but my DM is new, the other players are new, and the DM wants me more powerful (but lower leveled) than the other players, but only if i'm mostly a support caster
if my DM sees anything she doesnt like she'll tell me, and i'll create fluff that restricts it

*SNIP*

she says if i get too overpowered tiamat will come down and destroy me


So, wait.

Your DM wants you more powerful, but not too powerful. At epic levels, where by definition everything is overpowered. She wants you to be a support caster (whatever that may be). And if you get too powerful, Tiamat, a deity revered by kobolds who respects power and ruthlessness, will smite one of her worshippers for being powerful and ruthless?

I'm confused and mildly terrified. How exactly do you want help becoming "powerful at epic levels but not so powerful that I tick off the DM/ suffer a logically inconsistent smiting"?

I mean, potentially anything could be enough to set off your DM. There's really not enough information to go on, here.

[Somensjev]

i'm not epic, i'm level 6, and everyone else is level 7
thanks to some questionable writing in races of dragon, i dont need to take sorcerer 1-6 before taking dragonblood sorcerer 7, same for the cleric, for some reason, my DM allowed this, while completely understanding what it means
and i got the epic feats because i'm an old or older dragon, so i can take epic feats without being epic, DM okayed this too

and at the moment i think my fluff nerfs are
1. refuses to cast spells unless directly adjacent to enemy (to offset ridiculous hp)
2. mainly support caster (avoids blasting, and most utilities)
3. near suicidal tendencies (nerfs a lot, especially when fighting more difficult things)
i think there's more, but i cant remember

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

i'm not epic, i'm level 6, and everyone else is level 7
thanks to some questionable writing in races of dragon, i dont need to take sorcerer 1-6 before taking dragonblood sorcerer 7, same for the cleric, for some reason, my DM allowed this, while completely understanding what it means
and i got the epic feats because i'm an old or older dragon, so i can take epic feats without being epic, DM okayed this too

Absolutely not, the Core rules on multiclassing and leveling up in PHB p59-60 completely override any questionable wording in any splatbook. See page 60 under Advancing A Level:
"A multiclass character who attains a new level either increases one of his or her current class levels by one or picks up a new class at 1st level."

What you're doing is taking advantage of a new DM's ignorance of the rules, i.e. cheating.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Use buff and utility spells, with perhaps the odd BFC power. Focus on powering-up your allies as much as possible. Don't play the character like a suicidal idiot-- you'll still be too strong, but you'll also be annoying.

It does seem like kind of a weird set-up, though. The DM wants you to be strong, but not too strong. She's given you all these massively permissive boosts, but also threatened you with arbitrary death if you take too much advantage of them. Am I understanding this right?

[Somensjev]

Absolutely not, the Core rules on multiclassing and leveling up in PHB p59-60 completely override any questionable wording in any splatbook. See page 60 under Advancing A Level:
"A multiclass character who attains a new level either increases one of his or her current class levels by one or picks up a new class at 1st level."

What you're doing is taking advantage of a new DM's ignorance of the rules, i.e. cheating.

doesnt specific trump general?

ROTD says
"Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes,
racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require
the dragonblood subtype"

and it also says
"Requirements
To take a dragonblood cleric substitution level, a character
must have the dragonblood subtype and be about to take
her 1st, 5th, or 9th level of cleric."

edit: wouldn't the first bit make the character qualify for the second?


Use buff and utility spells, with perhaps the odd BFC power. Focus on powering-up your allies as much as possible. Don't play the character like a suicidal idiot-- you'll still be too strong, but you'll also be annoying.

It does seem like kind of a weird set-up, though. The DM wants you to be strong, but not too strong. She's given you all these massively permissive boosts, but also threatened you with arbitrary death if you take too much advantage of them. Am I understanding this right?

pretty much, she wants me to be as powerful as everyone in practice, but able to save people if she screws up horribly, especially since whe have about 7 or 8 people, and she doesnt know how to adjust the challenge ratings, so most of it will be her intuition

and apparently tiamat has a dislike for pot plants, which my character cherishes

IIRC, i have one damaging spell/power, mind thrust, everything else is just stuff that looked fun, i'm sure it'll be interesting

edit2: not quite a suicidal idiot, just curious almost to the point of suicidal

[Grod_The_Giant]

edit: wouldn't the first bit make the character qualify for the second?
For the level 1 substitution level? Sure. But not for the level 7 substitution level, which has the prerequisite of "the last six class levels."


pretty much, she wants me to be as powerful as everyone in practice, but able to save people if she screws up horribly, especially since whe have about 7 or 8 people, and she doesnt know how to adjust the challenge ratings, so most of it will be her intuition
... those are fairly contradictory goals. The best you can do is be overpowered and not use it.

Seriously. If it's not too late, build a Bard or something and optimize to your heart's content. Use varying degrees of Inspire Courage (OK, this one will just be the basic. For this one, I'll use the spell and the item. This one I'll also break out Words of Creation). Save your SoL spells for when you need 'em.

[Somensjev]

For the level 1 substitution level? Sure. But not for the level 7 substitution level, which has the prerequisite of "the last six class levels."


... those are fairly contradictory goals. The best you can do is be overpowered and not use it.

Seriously. If it's not too late, build a Bard or something and optimize to your heart's content. Use varying degrees of Inspire Courage (OK, this one will just be the basic. For this one, I'll use the spell and the item. This one I'll also break out Words of Creation). Save your SoL spells for when you need 'em.

i'm not really good at optimizing, my personality is exactly as my name, i take what looks fun at the time :smallredface:
and my DM really likes my current character, and strangely so do i, and since it's a more, relaxed campaign a bit of weirdness is fine

[Morphie]

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense at all. I think the best thing would be to encourage the new DM to actually learn the rules of the game and not take advantage of his ignorance.

Maybe you should read them too, because there is no way (at least that I know of) that you can take just a level of any class without having the levels that come before it. You may like the Char, the DM may like the idea of having a near-invincible helper that will never die (because, let's face it, he won't target you with the killers) and will save the party if they screw things up, but what about the rest of the group? If you just bend the rules to your liking they will have a harder time understanding the game and will think that yours is the right way of interpreting the rules-system. And I'm sorry, but it isn't.

Maybe the DM should try a low-level adventure, with the PC's starting at 1st level and having you as a DM assistant, maybe with a DMPC of 1-2 levels higher to guide them through. Baby steps, don't rush things up.
Other than that I don't know what else to say, I didn't mean to offend in any way, but that's just not how you play D&D.

[Red Fel]

Let me just go back over this stuff for a moment.

1- You're a Dragonwrought Kobold. Warning: Cheese potential detected.

2- You aged forward to Venerable for free bonuses. All aboard the cheese bus, next destination: Not Gouda.

3- You took two later class levels without taking the ones which preceded them, based on a horribly butchered reading of the RAW that you "qualify". Welcome to Muenster, all aboard!

4- You took Epic feats, based on the same tortured reading. I hope you're not lactose intolerant.

5- These epic feats directly offset your flaw (frail), rendering it completely obviated, basically granting you a feat for free. I'm running out of cheese metaphors here. Um... queso?

I think we've successfully passed the overpowered threshhold. Frankly, I think Tiamat should be eyeing you, worried that you plan to become the next Pun-Pun and eat her.

You don't need our help. This isn't just optimizing, it's abusing the DM's ignorance. If you need our help to build this character further, I shudder to think of the horrors your DM must be sending after your level 7 party.

If your DM likes the character, and the other players don't object, you don't need us. Play it as you like, and go with Tiamat's terrifying blessing.

The cheese is frightening me, mommy. Make it go away...

[Gnome Alone]

While I agree with the "O merciless ancient gods the horror the cheese the horror" consensus, mayhap some of our NON-cheaty terrifying optimizers can advise the OP of a more reasonable yet still powerful interpretation of their concept? Like, how can he do this idea but not ridiculously? Biffoniacus_Furiou, that's kinda like your whole bag, right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biffoniacus_Furiou, that's kinda like your whole bag, right?

A single-classed STP Erudite is going to be more powerful than a new DM knows how to handle as it is. The only way to improve the character is to get him to follow the actual rules.

[Gnome Alone]

Alright, you got it, OP, from the mouthkeyboard of many a folk, you need no extra options as is, you'd still be ridiculously powerful even if your lizardy dragonman wasn't a cheesebomination.

[Somensjev]

i was actually wondering if i could manage to convince my DM if i could take a few levels in commoner, to at least bring my self down a bit, or multiclass a lot, for no reason or synergy

maybe a two level dip into commoner, one/two levels into monk, one/two samurai, etc

[bekeleven]

While I agree with the "O merciless ancient gods the horror the cheese the horror" consensus, mayhap some of our NON-cheaty terrifying optimizers can advise the OP of a more reasonable yet still powerful interpretation of their concept? Like, how can he do this idea but not ridiculously? Biffoniacus_Furiou, that's kinda like your whole bag, right?

We tried asking him to dial it back in the past. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304989) The result was, he began with a StP Erudite with a wizard cohort via leadership, and ended with a StP Erudite dragonwraught kobold with epic feats and a hilarious misreading of dragonblooded.

[Somensjev]

We tried asking him to dial it back in the past. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304989) The result was, he began with a StP Erudite with a wizard cohort via leadership, and ended with a StP Erudite dragonwraught kobold with epic feats and a hilarious misreading of dragonblooded.

i dont like dialing back much :smallbiggrin:
that said, i'm perfectly open to completely rewriting my character, the only thing is, i'm keeping the race, and flaws (probably not the feats, since i wouldnt be playing venerable), and all of my wbl is going to my stronghold

[Wings of Peace]

While it's incredibly cheesey the verbatim of the Races of the Dragon entry he's using for accelerated class advancement isn't as black and white wrong as most people in this thread are saying. There is an element of ambiguity that makes his reading plausible it's more a question of why you would choose such an unlikely interpretation when the gray area is so small. For examples of larger grey areas I'm thinking of things like the spell Streamers from Shining South.

[Red Fel]

i was actually wondering if i could manage to convince my DM if i could take a few levels in commoner, to at least bring my self down a bit, or multiclass a lot, for no reason or synergy

maybe a two level dip into commoner, one/two levels into monk, one/two samurai, etc

Sometimes, the way to properly keep a character from being overpowered isn't to take classes, feats or features that will specifically render you useless (e.g. commoner). Sometimes, the way to keep a character from being overpowered is simply to play it sensibly. As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you want to keep your character from overwhelming everything, give him a reason not to use his full potential unless forced to. Choose to hold back, not unreasonably. This is fair to other players, and doesn't render your character a useless tag-along.

Taking levels in underwhelming classes for no in-character reason is basically saying to the other players, "Hey, look, my guy is so strong he'll kill the bad guys with one hand tied behind his back."

Don't be that guy. Just don't.

[Somensjev]

Sometimes, the way to properly keep a character from being overpowered isn't to take classes, feats or features that will specifically render you useless (e.g. commoner). Sometimes, the way to keep a character from being overpowered is simply to play it sensibly. As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you want to keep your character from overwhelming everything, give him a reason not to use his full potential unless forced to. Choose to hold back, not unreasonably. This is fair to other players, and doesn't render your character a useless tag-along.

Taking levels in underwhelming classes for no in-character reason is basically saying to the other players, "Hey, look, my guy is so strong he'll kill the bad guys with one hand tied behind his back."

Don't be that guy. Just don't.

i do have quite a lot of fluffy reasons for him not to do certain things, but i dont know what to take as the next level, so i'm thinking i definately dont want another level in anything i already have, and my characters entire personality is pretty much "oh, shiny" (more or less), so i'm thinking of a tier 3 or lower class, that looks cool (like monk, at first glance) problem is, he's most definitely chaotic, so monk's no good, maybe barbarian or something

of course, all of this is prone to change between now, and the hour before the first session, so if anyone could suggest a class that would help me be powerful, but not brokenly so (or broken, if you can think of something fluffy)

[Red Fel]

i do have quite a lot of fluffy reasons for him not to do certain things, but i dont know what to take as the next level, so i'm thinking i definately dont want another level in anything i already have, and my characters entire personality is pretty much "oh, shiny" (more or less), so i'm thinking of a tier 3 or lower class, that looks cool (like monk, at first glance) problem is, he's most definitely chaotic, so monk's no good, maybe barbarian or something

of course, all of this is prone to change between now, and the hour before the first session, so if anyone could suggest a class that would help me be powerful, but not brokenly so (or broken, if you can think of something fluffy)

I'll be honest, if we were sitting at a table together, and you asked me that same question, I'd refuse. Your character is so broken at this point that I'd refuse to help you get more broken unless you were able to promise me that you'd keep the character to legitimate RAW, and not tortured interpretations thereof; that you'd reduce your level of min/maxing substantially; that you'd take character levels only after completing those prior to them; and that you'd try to stay with a given class for more than one or two levels. Each of those are signs, although not guarantees, of serious optimizing; together, they can render a character outrageously broken.

I'd need to know that you were playing the same game that everyone else at your table plays before I'd offer you advice on how to continue.

[Somensjev]

I'll be honest, if we were sitting at a table together, and you asked me that same question, I'd refuse. Your character is so broken at this point that I'd refuse to help you get more broken unless you were able to promise me that you'd keep the character to legitimate RAW, and not tortured interpretations thereof; that you'd reduce your level of min/maxing substantially; that you'd take character levels only after completing those prior to them; and that you'd try to stay with a given class for more than one or two levels. Each of those are signs, although not guarantees, of serious optimizing; together, they can render a character outrageously broken.

I'd need to know that you were playing the same game that everyone else at your table plays before I'd offer you advice on how to continue.

i'm fine with that, i'm quite happy to replace most/all of my class levels for any other class people can suggest, a class that can be used for support, but has one or two things i can use to save the party if it gets itself in serious trouble (maybe cleric, and play a healbot or something?) i just like the learning spells from other peoples minds part of the spell-to-power erudite

[Grod_The_Giant]

Play a straight desert kobold StP Erudite, without any of this crap about dragonwrought or epic feats or "well, I can take only the 7th level substitution level." Load up on buffs, heals, and the like. Maybe a few d6/level blasts. Take a handful of SoL/no save, just lose spells, but only use them when things go bad. But above all, "save" the party by giving them wise in-character advice, not being a fool with too much power for anyone's good.

tl;dr: Play a normal character.

[Somensjev]

Play a straight desert kobold StP Erudite, without any of this crap about dragonwrought or epic feats or "well, I can take only the 7th level substitution level." Load up on buffs, heals, and the like. Maybe a few d6/level blasts. Take a handful of SoL/no save, just lose spells, but only use them when things go bad. But above all, "save" the party by giving them wise in-character advice, not being a fool with too much power for anyone's good.

tl;dr: Play a normal character.

done, except the powers, i'm not sure what i should take at the moment, any suggestions? :smallconfused: