How to kill someone permanently [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Eaglejarl

2013-09-30, 10:21 AM

Considering the existence of True Resurrection, is there a way to actually kill someone enough such that they can't come back through any means?

Putting them in a Bag of Holding and then puncturing the Bag (which destroys the contents), but I'm not sure that would cut it.

A sphere of annihilation will destroy them, but divine intervention could bring them back.

If you could cause them to die of old age they would be unrecoverable, but I don't know of any means to age someone, aside from one particular epic monster which I don't want to use.

Anything else?

Deca4531

2013-09-30, 10:23 AM

The only way to to destroy the soul, which IIRC there are a few spells that do just that.

Namfuak

2013-09-30, 10:24 AM

Mindrape them so that they will refuse the resurrection, then kill them.

atomicwaffle

2013-09-30, 10:27 AM

Send them to the Gray Wastes of Hades. The only way out is for someone to enter and physically remove you. Problem: you must make constant saving throws while there to not forget about everything you ever knew or cared about.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 10:28 AM

ZamielVanWeber

2013-09-30, 10:33 AM

There is an item in the ELH that traps someone's soul in a pocket dimension. It is beyond even a deities reach.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 10:35 AM

There is an item in the ELH that traps someone's soul in a pocket dimension. It is beyond even a deities reach.

1) The Divine Salient ability Life and Death ignores soul-trapping effects.
2) Even if it didn't, the deity (or even just a high-level caster) can wish itself to where the item is and break it.

Red Fel

2013-09-30, 10:35 AM

Thinaun weapons are a popular choice. If a thinaun weapon is touching something when it dies, its soul is trapped in the weapon rather than passing on.

Other methods that trap a soul are also fairly effective.

An alternative is simply not to kill the target - there are ways to trap a living target, potentially indefinitely, such as Imprisonment. I think there was something about cysts, also...

And if you're daft enough to go with Truenaming, in theory someone can be Unnamed.

NEO|Phyte

2013-09-30, 10:36 AM

Solution: don't actually kill them. There are loads of ways to leave someone indefinitely disabled. Microcosm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm) + ring of sustenance is a good one, though fairly high level. Dropping them in a barrel of quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm) works too.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 10:37 AM

NEO|Phyte

2013-09-30, 10:49 AM

If they're not dead they can simply be wished to your location.

Assuming you aren't dealing with a 20 questions diviner situation, as long as the other guys THINK the guy is dead, they'll be too busy trying to bypass your nefarious anti-res scheme to think "What if we just Wish him to us?"

FearlessGnome

2013-09-30, 10:49 AM

Ultimately, any Divine Rank 20 life or death god is going to be able to undo the soul erasing powers of any other Divine Rank 20 god. That's just how the books handle gods.

Short of divine intervention, however, not even a wish or miracle can bring back a soul that has been destroyed with Necrotic Termination (Ninth level spell, Libris Mortis)

NEO|Phyte

2013-09-30, 10:54 AM

Also, looking at what divine intervention can handle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife), I'm pretty sure old age is the only unrecoverable death state, unless you can get the highest-ranking god to Hand of Death the target and not let anyone restore them.

Gemini476

2013-09-30, 11:12 AM

Truenaming has some options. You can Unname them, but then they can be brought back through the Ritual of Renaming + True Resurrection.
That's a DC 15+2*CR Truenaming check, by the way, and very few people bother with Truenaming. It's like Forgery in some aspects.

Otherwise, if you want to go more cheesy, have a Truenamer Transmute Weapon a weapon into Thinaun, kill someone with the weapon, and then have their soul vanish as the Thinaun transmutes into its original form.

The Vile feat Harvester of Souls from Elder Evils lets you coup de grace a foe, get 2*HD in temporary HP, and makes them unable to be resurrected by anything less than a Wish or Miracle.

If you feel sufficiently sui- and omnicidal, you may consider awakening Leviathan.

True Death
The presence of an elder evil that has this property weakens
the souls of living creatures so that they are lost on death.
Benefit: Any creature that dies within the area of this
malefic property is forever dead. Its soul has not passed to
the Outer Planes but has died with the body; the creature
cannot be raised by any means. In addition, all spells and
spell-like effects that have the death descriptor are cast at +4
caster level.
This ability is always active.

True Death (Su)Any creature that dies within 1,000 miles
of an aspect of Leviathan cannot be raised by any
means. In addition, all spells and spell-like effects that
have the death descriptor are cast at +4 caster level.
This property does not come into effect until the Leviathan truly wakes (when its overwhelming eerie weather
sign manifests).

Do note that awakening Leviathan is only a good idea if you for whatever reason don't mind your local material plane to be destroyed and then remade.

Speaking of omnicide and Elder Evils, you could free Pandorym. While he doesn't have a special ability to keep people dead, he will kill everything in existence. If no one can cast True Resurrection, that's pretty much equivalent to being unresurrectionable, right?
I'm pretty sure the only way to survive is to be in the Far Realm while Pandorym does his stuff, although depending on his origin that might not work.

If you want a cheap way to destroy a soul, Trap the Soul combined with using the soul as a material component works nicely. The rules for that are in Book of Vile Darkness, unsurprisingly.

Oh, and if you don't want a god to resurrect the guy, buddy up with the gods that oppose that god.

dantiesilva

2013-09-30, 11:29 AM

I have found it amusing to trap the soul into a gem. Steal the archdevils spellbook, Polymorph any object the crystal into his spellbook. Put it back. Now you are facing the devil for your friends soul. Also make a shadesteel golem and attach the crystal to it somewhere and send it to the grey wastes, or the prison plane.

NEO|Phyte

2013-09-30, 11:33 AM

If this archdevil is sufficiently unparanoid that you can just casually steal his spellbook, he's not gonna make a good guardian for the hidden soul.

CarpeGuitarrem

2013-09-30, 11:34 AM

Side note: this is one of the many D&D thread titles which, out of context, sounds absolutely horrifying.

ShurikVch

2013-09-30, 11:38 AM

Aging Touch (Dr#350) him into venerable, then Bestow Greater Curse for +1 age category. Venerable+1=dead from old age, right?

Similar method: custom-made plane with very fast timeflow. Say, microsecond on Material Plane equal billion of years. Open Gate, throw him in, close Gate.

Non-lethal decision: use Ritual of Vitality (Sav. Sp.) to turn him into ... Unseen Servant! He is not dead technically, and even if someone wish it away... So what? Unseen Servant is invisible, mute and mindless. They are simply just will not understand where is their former friend.

Chronos

2013-09-30, 11:48 AM

Quoth Gemini476:

Otherwise, if you want to go more cheesy, have a Truenamer Transmute Weapon a weapon into Thinaun, kill someone with the weapon, and then have their soul vanish as the Thinaun transmutes into its original form.
Nothing about either Thinaun Steel nor Transmute Weapon says anything to suggest that the soul would vanish. Either Thinaun Steel is only necessary for trapping the soul, but any material can contain it, in which case the soul remains trapped in the re-transmuted weapon and can be released by destroying it, or Thinaun Steel is necessary for both trapping and containing the soul, in which case it's released immediately upon the weapon re-transmuting.

Emperor Tippy

2013-09-30, 11:51 AM

Unname, even deities can't directly bring you back and arguably there is no way at all to come back that actually works.

Der_DWSage

2013-09-30, 12:03 PM

Jormengand

2013-09-30, 12:07 PM

Unname, even deities can't directly bring you back and arguably there is no way at all to come back that actually works.

Unname specifically states in the spell description that the Ritual of Renaming allows you to return someone's soul.

Dangit, Shurik stole my general idea and then added onto it.

But yeah-if the only way to permanently kill someone is old age...why not just magick up some age to throw at him? It seems a simple enough thing.

Reincarnation works on old age. They would have to be level 1 when you destroyed their soul to work.

Red Fel

2013-09-30, 12:09 PM

Unname specifically states in the spell description that the Ritual of Renaming allows you to return someone's soul.

Yes, but that requires Truenaming and spellcasting.

Those capable of casting such high-level spells are likely to have high Int, high Wis, or both.

Such people are generally smart enough to have not taken Truenaming.

Ironic, no?

Der_DWSage

2013-09-30, 12:13 PM

Reincarnation works on old age. They would have to be level 1 when you destroyed their soul to work.

Ah, right. Energy Drain + Magick Age through some source, then. Or summon a Wight to play patty-cake with them until they're almost dead.

Jormengand

2013-09-30, 12:13 PM

Yes, but that requires Truenaming and spellcasting.

Those capable of casting such high-level spells are likely to have high Int, high Wis, or both.

Such people are generally smart enough to have not taken Truenaming.

Ironic, no?

Which is funny, really, because Tippy's way of doing it requires a spell with a truespeech component.

Take an untrained knowledge (What you're talking about) check, because you clearly haven't put points in it.

ShurikVch

2013-09-30, 12:15 PM

Reincarnation works on old age. They would have to be level 1 when you destroyed their soul to work.
Nope.
Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm)

The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.

Clistenes

2013-09-30, 12:15 PM

Dangit, Shurik stole my general idea and then added onto it.

But yeah-if the only way to permanently kill someone is old age...why not just magick up some age to throw at him? It seems a simple enough thing.

I would say that artificially aging somebody with a spell would be treated as murder, not death due to old age.

I think the reason people who died due to old age can't be brought back is some kind of covenant among deities, who vowed to not do that. But If your god knows that you were killed with an aging spell, it's kosher to send you back.

At least that's the way I see it.

SiuiS

2013-09-30, 12:16 PM

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-30, 12:17 PM

Magic Jar an enemy, forcing their soul into a gem. Take said gem and use it as a material spell component or as a small XP boost while crafting (there are rules for both in BoVD). Said soul is irrevocably destroyed, and all it took was a fifth level spell.

Jormengand

2013-09-30, 12:18 PM

Nope.
Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm)

Uh, there is a spell that does it. Something like rebirth, maybe? There's definitely a way to keep someone from dying, even of old age.

ahenobarbi

2013-09-30, 12:18 PM

If gods get involved then anything can be undone. Even if you found some way to erase the soul beyond all recovery, an epic spell could Ship of Theseus a new individual into being with all of the old individual's abilities and memories.

Effectively can't be done. Even if you make it impossible to restore original individual epic caster can just make a perfect copy.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-30, 12:20 PM

Level drain to level 1, then put them through crucimigration, which would make their HD become 0, thereby killing them and making them ineligible for resurrection.

Alternatively, find a way to permanently reduce your target's CON to 0 (not damage, because true resurrection will clear that). They can get resurrected but will instantly die again.

Der_DWSage

2013-09-30, 12:21 PM

I would say that artificially aging somebody with a spell would be treated as murder, not death due to old age.

I think the reason people who died due to old age can't be brought back is some kind of covenant among deities, who vowed to not do that. But If your god knows that you were killed with an aging spell, it's kosher to send you back.

At least that's the way I see it.

That's RAI, skippy. RAW is a whole other beast, and is quite silly at its core. But if the old age is permanent, it's still something that fulfills the 'old age' clause of most of the spells.

Also, it's murder either way. It's just a question of the means, and how difficult it is to bring you back afterwards.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 12:22 PM

Effectively can't be done. Even if you make it impossible to restore original individual epic caster can just make a perfect copy.

Precisely. Once you can create life to your exact specifications, truly killing people is utterly impossible.

Eldest

2013-09-30, 12:24 PM

\I think the reason people who died due to old age can't be brought back is some kind of covenant among deities, who vowed to not do that. But If your god knows that you were killed with an aging spell, it's kosher to send you back.\

[Citation Needed]

I think that the only thing that kills permanently is the old age thing, which surprises me. Or you might be able to throw them at the top layer of Celestia?

Yuki Akuma

2013-09-30, 12:29 PM

Uh, there is a spell that does it. Something like rebirth, maybe? There's definitely a way to keep someone from dying, even of old age.

Reincarnate can be used to prevent someone from dying of old age - kill them and then Reincarnate them back into a young adult.

Once they're venerable again, they've probably regained that level they lost, so do it again.

And so on.

But it doesn't work if they've already died of old age.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-30, 12:39 PM

Alternatively, find a way to permanently reduce your target's CON to 0 (not damage, because true resurrection will clear that). They can get resurrected but will instantly die again.

Mind rape or your mental control preference here. Force your victim to activate an item of psychofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychofeedback.htm), and burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn) their CON down to 2 to boost their STR up. Then force them to submit to the dark chaos shuffle, and trade out two of their feats for Evil Brand and Willing Deformity (Gaunt), thereby penalizing their CON for two points and reducing it to 0.

True resurrection can't clear ability burn, nor can wish, or any magic, actually--only natural healing can fix it. However, dead creatures don't heal naturally, and you can't resurrect someone who's CON is 0. True resurrection also can't remove Willing Deformity (Gaunt).

Congratulations, you've reduced someone to an object.

You monster.

Aharon

2013-09-30, 12:39 PM

Feed the victim to a Barghest - 50% chance of not being recoverable by mortal means (true ressurection, wish, miracle).
Reaping Spell (metamagic Feat, CoR) - same effect as above.
Barghest's Feast (planar handbook) - same effect as above. Twinning possible, but not exactly sure how it would work - I guess a 75% chance of not being recoverable?

hamishspence

2013-09-30, 12:46 PM

There is an item in the ELH that traps someone's soul in a pocket dimension. It is beyond even a deities reach.
It doesn't actually say it traps the soul.

What it says is (p233):

Anifer wears a cloak whose interior can open onto a void dimension. When the remains of a victim are sent to her for disposal, she allows her cloak to over the body and speaks a command word. When the cloak is pulled free, the body is gone forever, beyond even the recall of greater gods.

The item itself has no stats.

1) The Divine Salient ability Life and Death ignores soul-trapping effects.
2) Even if it didn't, the deity (or even just a high-level caster) can wish itself to where the item is and break it.

My guess is that it prevents spells like True Resurrection, or similar Divine Salient Abilities, from recreating the body in any way, since that body is "beyond the recall of greater gods".

ShurikVch

2013-09-30, 01:03 PM

Make illithid out of him. It's not a death, so no reason for resurrection to work.

Stuff him into the Bag of Holding alive, then enter it and use Imprisonment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm) on him. Exit the bag, throw in a portable hole. Now he will stay imprisoned forever, because the only way to free him is cast the Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedom.htm) "at the locale where the imprisonment took place", and this place just not exist anymore.

Cast Vile Rebellion on him VILE REBELLION
Necromancy (Evil)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. +5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell causes a rebellion of the worst kind — a rebellion of the body. If the victim resists the spell, she is filled with wracking pains and is nauseated for 1d4 rounds. If the victim fails her save, she is stunned for 1d4 rounds, after which time her arms, legs, and torso separate bloodlessly and go their own ways. Only the victim's head remains under her control. The separate limbs quickly pass from life into perpetual undeath, and they are treated thereafter as zombies two sizes smaller than the target creature. The caster controls the zombies as though he had used negative energy to command undead. The victim's head remains horribly alive, sustained by the spell, but suffers 1d3 points of Wisdom drain each round until it goes insane as per the insanity spell. The head can cast spells that have only verbal components, but it is otherwise helpless.
If the victim's limbs have not yet separated from her body, successfully dispelling the spell stops the progression of vile rebellion. Once separation occurs, however, reintegration of the living victim is possible only by bringing the body parts together and casting dispel evil followed by the regeneration spell.
Material Component: A severed finger.
Pick the head, put it to the box made of nullstone and hide in some hard-to-search place.

Shining Wrath

2013-09-30, 01:07 PM

Start with Imprisonment:

Imprisonment
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation (see the temporal stasis spell) in a small sphere far beneath the surface of the earth. The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place. Magical search by a crystal ball, a locate object spell, or some other similar divination does not reveal the fact that a creature is imprisoned, but discern location does. A wish or miracle spell will not free the recipient, but will reveal where it is entombed. If you know the target’s name and some facts about its life, the target takes a -4 penalty on its save.
SRD

When you cast it, though, both you and the victim are within a Bag of Holding. Then you exit the Bag of Holding, and drop in a Portable Hole.

The victim is entombed, but there is no way to reach the locale where the imprisonment took place, because of the reaction between the Bag and the Hole.

Captnq

2013-09-30, 01:09 PM

Mind Seed.

Won't matter if they die or not, they become YOU. The old personality? No known RAW way to recover it. Once the process is finished, of course.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 01:15 PM

Start with Imprisonment:

When you cast it, though, both you and the victim are within a Bag of Holding. Then you exit the Bag of Holding, and drop in a Portable Hole.

The victim is entombed, but there is no way to reach the locale where the imprisonment took place, because of the reaction between the Bag and the Hole.

That's easy to beat.

Method #1:
1) Shrink/polymorph down to Tiny or smaller (so you can share a square with the target)
2) Wish yourself to their location
3) Cast Freedom

Method #2:
1) Travel to another plane
2) Cast Gate, pulling the Imprisoned target through. Wish or Miracle doesn't free them, but it says nothing about blocking Gate.
(Alternatively, use Gate to travel, as Method 1 Step 2.)

Method #3:
1) Deity kills you via Life and Death by identifying you.
2) Deity rezzes you normally or recreates you with the same ability.

Mind Seed.

Won't matter if they die or not, they become YOU. The old personality? No known RAW way to recover it. Once the process is finished, of course.

They explicitly possess their original soul even if your memories and personality are layered on top. So killing "the other you" will still free the original soul, which can then be raised.

Sure it'll have some different experiences, but you could arguably say the same about anybody who died and got raised.

ShurikVch

2013-09-30, 01:16 PM

Mind Seed.

Won't matter if they die or not, they become YOU. The old personality? No known RAW way to recover it. Once the process is finished, of course.

I like it! :smallsmile:
Is it a start of Agent Smith TO character?

Psyren

2013-09-30, 01:20 PM

It doesn't actually say it traps the soul.

What it says is (p233):

Anifer wears a cloak whose interior can open onto a void dimension. When the remains of a victim are sent to her for disposal, she allows her cloak to over the body and speaks a command word. When the cloak is pulled free, the body is gone forever, beyond even the recall of greater gods.

The item itself has no stats.

My guess is that it prevents spells like True Resurrection, or similar Divine Salient Abilities, from recreating the body in any way, since that body is "beyond the recall of greater gods".

The body is not the soul though. (I'm pretty sure we discussed this already :smalltongue:)

TR, Wish and Miracle explicitly create a brand new body for your soul to inhabit, so it doesn't matter if her cloak keeps your original body out of divine reach.

EDIT: Hey, we did! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233234)

TheFallenOne

2013-09-30, 01:23 PM

If we try to hide their soul instead of destroying it we might consider Sigil as an option. That place is explicitly outside the reach of the gods, so they can't just flex their Divine Rank muscles to bring person-we-don't-like back. They could still create an identical copy of the soul, but to prevent that we'd have to rewrite reality so noone knows said person ever existed, including the gods, which I assume is no option.

ShurikVch

2013-09-30, 01:25 PM

That's easy to beat.

Method #1:
1) Shrink/polymorph down to Tiny or smaller (so you can share a square with the target)
2) Wish yourself to their location
3) Cast Freedom Will not work. You need to cast spell not on imprisoned, but on the place of imprisonment.

Method #2:
1) Travel to another plane
2) Cast Gate, pulling the Imprisoned target through. Wish or Miracle doesn't free them, but it says nothing about blocking Gate.
(Alternatively, use Gate to travel, as Method 1 Step 2.) Yes, so what?

They explicitly possess their original soul even if your memories and personality are layered on top. So killing "the other you" will still free the original soul, which can then be raised.

Sure it'll have some different experiences, but you could arguably say the same about anybody who died and got raised. OK, how about Mindrape him into whole new personality with completely different memories, permanently PAO him into new shape and add a Ghostly Visage to prevent detection and location?

Shining Wrath

2013-09-30, 01:32 PM

That's easy to beat.

Method #1:
1) Shrink/polymorph down to Tiny or smaller (so you can share a square with the target)
2) Wish yourself to their location
3) Cast Freedom

Method #2:
1) Travel to another plane
2) Cast Gate, pulling the Imprisoned target through. Wish or Miracle doesn't free them, but it says nothing about blocking Gate.
(Alternatively, use Gate to travel, as Method 1 Step 2.)

Method #3:
1) Deity kills you via Life and Death by identifying you.
2) Deity rezzes you normally or recreates you with the same ability.

They explicitly possess their original soul even if your memories and personality are layered on top. So killing "the other you" will still free the original soul, which can then be raised.

Sure it'll have some different experiences, but you could arguably say the same about anybody who died and got raised.

#1 doesn't work, because Freedom must be cast at the locale where Imprisonment was cast, which is explicitly not the locale of entombment per the language of the spell.

#2 I don't think this works, either, because "The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place." and that would seem to rule out a Gate moving them to you. The text of Imprisonment says they can't leave unless Freedom, period. Moving yourself to them with the Gate would work, but now we're back to #1 - casting Freedom where they are is useless, it must be cast at the point of imprisonment.

#3 - OK. If someone travels to where you are, kills you, and then resurrects you in a different place, I think that might work. It depends on how one reads "the subject remains there unless ...". I don't know that deities are needed. Use Wish or Gate, reach the victim, kill them, take a drop of their blood or a piece of flesh, decamp using Wish or Gate.

The only catch would be if the small sphere vanishes upon death of the imprisoned. RAW don't say.

So I'll modify my method:

Prior to casting Imprisonment, poison them with a powerful Constitution reducing poison - enough to reduce their CON to zero. Then imprison them, and they'll die in their little sphere from the poison. And put a pair of rats, one male, one female, in their pockets just prior to casting. Anyone gating to them is going to find not much left.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 01:35 PM

Will not work. You need to cast spell not on imprisoned, but on the place of imprisonment.

You're right, I missed the "was entombed" in Freedom. But once you can get to where they are, simply kill them and rez them elsewhere.

Yes, so what?

Likewise, this method delivers them right to you, allowing you to kill and rez.

OK, how about Mindrape him into whole new personality

From a philosophical perspective this is simply an elaborate way to kill the old mind :smalltongue:

Anyway, there are several ways to defeat Mind Blank, including Metafaculty. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) Once you've done that, you can get to their location, drive out the GV, and reprogram them a second time.

#2 I don't think this works, either, because "The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place." and that would seem to rule out a Gate moving them to you. The text of Imprisonment says they can't leave unless Freedom, period.

Gate specifically "pulls the subject through, willing or unwilling." Nothing in Imprisonment stops that.

Prior to casting Imprisonment, poison them with a powerful Constitution reducing poison - enough to reduce their CON to zero. Then imprison them, and they'll die in their little sphere from the poison. And put a pair of rats, one male, one female, in their pockets just prior to casting. Anyone gating to them is going to find not much left.

True Res restores Constitution.

denthor

2013-09-30, 02:34 PM

Not permanent but enough give the body to a cleric of whichever god is the opposite of that characters god. Let them intern them any way they want unmarked grave on holy ground.

This means that only true ressurection will work at that point. Unless someone wants to go in defile another god holy ground(Curse are sure to be coming). They would have to deal with said preist and assorted others.

Then defile a grave not a good act. Then find a preist that will cast the spell and maybe get cursed for doing so.

So make them do enough bad things to change there alignment from good ot Nuetral maybe evil. Then your party may not want to mess with it at all.

Fax Celestis

2013-09-30, 02:57 PM

Slipperychicken

2013-09-30, 03:03 PM

Ship of Theseus a new individual into being with all of the old individual's abilities and memories.

You still killed the guy permanently, even if a similar foe rises to take his place.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 03:26 PM

Oh Psyren, my Psyren, since you seem to be designated Debbie Downer, does this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16128093&postcount=37) method work? (just a link from earlier in the thread)

Animate the corpse as a mindless undead (e.g. a skeleton) - this will make it lose all feats, including Willing Deformity. Destroy the skeleton, then True Res - which can bring back creatures who were made undead and then destroyed.

If the body is damaged/disintegrated etc., PAO it into a corpse and proceed from step one. If the body is completely annihilated, recreate it with a Wish and proceed from step one.

You still killed the guy permanently, even if a similar foe rises to take his place.

Plutarch disagrees, but that discussion is beyond the scope of this thread anyway since there's no possible way to get consensus on it.

saxavarius

2013-09-30, 04:09 PM

Barghest's Feast has a 50% chance of destroying the soul and will destroy the body completely.

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-30, 04:32 PM

Barghest's Feast has a 50% chance of destroying the soul and will destroy the body completely.

OK, so combine this with the Magic Jar + spell component method I mentioned earlier for total destruction of body and 100% destruction of soul.

So....

STEP 1: Cast Magic Jar, placing your soul in a gem.
STEP 2: Possess your enemy. You are now currently in your enemy, and your enemy's soul is in the gem.
STEP 3: Cast any spell and, per the rules in BoVD (pages 45-46, "Material Components - soul in receptacle"), use a soul as an optional spell component. You get +10 to beat SR for using it! The soul will be destroyed completely and permanently.
STEP 4: Return to your body. You now have the soulless husk of your former enemy.
STEP 5: Cast Barghest's Feast to consume the body, preventing any body-specific means of resurrection.

End result? No soul, no body. A wizard can do it by level 13 without any fancy tricks (or earlier with scrolls). Anything I'm missing?

DruidAlanon

2013-09-30, 05:56 PM

Kill him once, rise him as an undead. Kill him twice. Now he's dead.

Piggy Knowles

2013-09-30, 06:04 PM

Kill him once, rise him as an undead. Kill him twice. Now he's dead.

True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) explicitly can bring back destroyed undead:

"You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed."

JoshuaZ

2013-09-30, 06:56 PM

Truespeech isn't that hard to get. Any factotum gets it as a class skill, there are a lot of ways to get skill points temporarily, and if you are a deity that shouldn't be that hard at all. And you really only need one rank if you are talking about a deity because high int along with a few spells will push you well over the DC. For example Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) gets a +20 competence bonus to the check.

Note that in contrast, Necrotic Termination says nothing about any easy way to bring it back, and arguably won't even allow deities to do anything about it.

Psyren

2013-09-30, 07:00 PM

There is indeed no way to restore a soul used as a material component. (Amusingly, BoVD doesn't elaborate on the ramifications of a soul being destroyed, leading to a "no penalties for being dead" RAW-silliness scenario, but anyway.) That will annihilate the creature's soul beyond mortal means.

Of course, that still leaves deities. Aside from Epic magic and Alter Reality, there is also the problem of Miracle, which deities can literally use to do anything. DaD:

What happens when a deity uses miracle? Rather than imploring another deity to perform some task, the deity simply draws from its own divine power. It pays the experience point cost with hardly a second thought, and creates the effect it desires.
....
Consider that a deity has a safe cushion of around 30,000 XP it can use every week for creating magic items and casting spells with experience point costs.

cagemarrow

2013-09-30, 10:27 PM

If you enervate someone down to second level then try to convert them into a necropolitian the ritual fails, because they can't pay the 1000xp price, and they are permanently destroyed and cannot be raised or resurrected by any means. Libris Mortus pg 115 last paragraph of the enrty. You do have to complete the entire 24 hour ritual to succeed at this.

DruidAlanon

2013-10-01, 11:53 AM

True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) explicitly can bring back destroyed undead:

"You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed."

oups O:)
That should describe then a failed attempt to kill someone permanently.

Tvtyrant

2013-10-01, 01:09 PM

Reincarnate can be used to prevent someone from dying of old age - kill them and then Reincarnate them back into a young adult.

Once they're venerable again, they've probably regained that level they lost, so do it again.

And so on.

But it doesn't work if they've already died of old age.

As an aside, if you maximize a reincarnate spell do you automatically get the "other" category?

Chronos

2013-10-01, 03:56 PM

As an aside, if you maximize a reincarnate spell do you automatically get the "other" category?
That's an old one, but the better question would be what if you empowered it and got higher than 100?

Alas, though, it doesn't work. Reincarnate does have a variable effect, but it's not a variable numeric effect. The effects are "Elf" or "Pixie" or the like; the numbers are just to determine what the effect is.

Slipperychicken

2013-10-01, 03:59 PM

As an aside, if you maximize a reincarnate spell do you automatically get the "other" category?

If Maximize works on d% rolls in spells... wouldn't casting Maximized Teleport be instant death? The result would always be 100, "Mishap" would come up forever, dealing 10 (maximized 1d10) damage an infinite number of times...

There has got to be some way to abuse maximized d% rolls on spells...

That's an old one, but the better question would be what if you empowered it and got higher than 100?

Maybe it tries to "make up" a creature that doesn't/can't exist to fulfill the spell (much like a Pokemon game "made up" the Missingno and other glitch-pokemon), so it winds up reincarnating you as a Pseudonatural (i.e. Far Realms) creature? Or it just stuffs your soul into an incoherent (but briefly living) oozing pile of bones and organs, in an attempt to create a creature result which it doesn't have references for...

Maybe you reincarnate as a card which reads "Error 404: Creature not found".

Psyren

2013-10-01, 06:15 PM

That's an old one, but the better question would be what if you empowered it and got higher than 100?

Alas, though, it doesn't work. Reincarnate does have a variable effect, but it's not a variable numeric effect. The effects are "Elf" or "Pixie" or the like; the numbers are just to determine what the effect is.

Yep, that's the rub.

Zero grim

2013-10-01, 06:36 PM

Simple way to kill someone forever, all you need is a few ranks in bluff.

1) kill target
2)bring them back with True Resurrection
3) show them their original corpse and convince them they are just a clone/brain washed individual

okay so they don't actually die, but how would they know they weren't just a mind raped, PaO brick that thinks it is the hero of the thousand suns? (worth a try at least, anything else a deity/epic spell caster could undo given enough time)

On a similar subject once you get true ressed can you use your original body as an undead or even just revive the original body with another resurrection spell?

Morithias

2013-10-01, 06:53 PM

Unname them.

Edit: Okay yes the ritual of renaming can bring them back. But how many clerics are you going to find that can a. Cast level 8 spells, and b. Know Truespeak.

ryu

2013-10-01, 06:53 PM

Uh he could rule out the brick thing by the fact that you can't add HD to creatures, in universe: That spell can't do that thing.

TuggyNE

2013-10-01, 07:09 PM

Uh he could rule out the brick thing by the fact that you can't add HD to creatures, in universe: That spell can't do that thing.

Huh? You can turn a pebble or marionette into a human, per the actual examples of the spell. And, in-character, there's no way for someone to immediately say "wait a second, I don't have enough HD and they're the wrong size", even supposing PaO supplies HD wrong. (Determining HD count takes research, per trap the soul.) So no, that's not a valid objection.

Psyren

2013-10-01, 07:14 PM

Bluff lasts one round or less per RAW anyway so that tactic wouldn't be effective for long.

TuggyNE

2013-10-01, 07:22 PM

Bluff lasts one round or less per RAW anyway so that tactic wouldn't be effective for long.

Well, sure, not saying the idea is awesome, but the reason it doesn't work isn't that one. :smallwink:

Perhaps I should try to avoid mathematician's answers a bit more.

Psyren

2013-10-01, 07:27 PM

Oh I wasn't contradicting you Tuggy, I was just sidestepping the PAO part of things to what came after it.

Pickford

2013-10-01, 10:47 PM

Mind rape or your mental control preference here. Force your victim to activate an item of psychofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychofeedback.htm), and burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn) their CON down to 2 to boost their STR up. Then force them to submit to the dark chaos shuffle, and trade out two of their feats for Evil Brand and Willing Deformity (Gaunt), thereby penalizing their CON for two points and reducing it to 0.

True resurrection can't clear ability burn, nor can wish, or any magic, actually--only natural healing can fix it. However, dead creatures don't heal naturally, and you can't resurrect someone who's CON is 0. True resurrection also can't remove Willing Deformity (Gaunt).

Congratulations, you've reduced someone to an object.

You monster.

Mindrape from the BoVD? It doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. All it 'can' do is alter emotions (does not apply here), opinions (doesn't make anyone actually do anything), or alignment (changes outlook on life, but doesn't actually force any action).

The spell you want is Dominate Person/Monster.

Edit: And Locale from Imprisonment would be wherever the items were when they were destroyed, as the extradimensional spaces would have been coterminous to that point. (Let's not good too pedantic, after all the planet is 'moving' so in a true sense you can 'never' reach the same absolute location reliably...for that matter it's really just a can one cross the same river twice? issue.)

lsfreak

2013-10-01, 10:47 PM

That's an old one, but the better question would be what if you empowered it and got higher than 100?

I think this is where owlbears came from.

Platymus Pus

2013-10-01, 11:36 PM

GM hammer I'd say

Red Rubber Band

2013-10-01, 11:43 PM

The following is from the minmaxboards (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6306.5). I would credit to whoever originally posted it but don't have that information as I can't access the site atm.

The Ritual of Crucimigration, the one that turns you into a necropolitan, makes you lose a level, and then lose 1000xp.

Now here's the thing. The text says...

"If the loss of this much XP forces the necropolitan to lose another level, then it loses another level. No spell, not even restoration, can restore this lost XP. Petitioners may not spend experience points they don't have - if the level loss and the 1,000 XP cost drains a creature to 0 XP or less, it is destroyed, turned to dust, and can never be raised or revived again using any means. If the ritual is interrupted before it is completed, the petitioner is merely dead."

Read the underlined section.

ANY. MEANS.

Not Ressurrection. Not True Ressurrection. Not Wish. Not Reality Revision. Not even a deitie's SDA.

Nothing.

The guy is PERMADEAD, as in, you are now forbidden to EVER raise again from the living because i say so dead. And no one gets a say in it.

Even Deitie's SDA that are instakill stuff have a clause in them that says the creature can only be raised by another SDA that raises the dead from a higher DvR deity. Not this. This has nothing like that.

So, drain a Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid to 2nd level, immobilize them, do the ritual to them, and they're now dead - FOREVER.

Psyren

2013-10-02, 08:07 AM

The following is from the minmaxboards (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6306.5). I would credit to whoever originally posted it but don't have that information as I can't access the site atm.

You have to voluntarily petition for the ritual though - it can't be "done to you."

And if you dominate/possess/mindrape someone to make them petition, in a sense it's really you doing it on their behalf.

In any case, that still doesn't prevent Theseus' Paradox from taking effect.

Red Rubber Band

2013-10-02, 07:05 PM

You have to voluntarily petition for the ritual though - it can't be "done to you."

And if you dominate/possess/mindrape someone to make them petition, in a sense it's really you doing it on their behalf.

In any case, that still doesn't prevent Theseus' Paradox from taking effect.

I hardly see why Theseus' Paradox has anything to do with this at all.

Diplomacy is a good start. Especially if they don't know about the consequences of the ritual.
Would Charm not work on them? Or Suggestion?

Psyren

2013-10-02, 07:11 PM

I hardly see why Theseus' Paradox has anything to do with this at all.

Gods, whether through Epic Spells or Divine Salient Abilities, can recreate someone from scratch exactly as they were in life, down to their feat selection and the color of their hair. It's very relevant.

Diplomacy is a good start. Especially if they don't know about the consequences of the ritual.
Would Charm not work on them? Or Suggestion?

At the risk of a 50 page argument, the question is whether they would truly be "petitioning" at that point.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-02, 07:15 PM

Gods, whether through Epic Spells or Divine Salient Abilities, can recreate someone from scratch exactly as they were in life, down to their feat selection and the color of their hair. It's very relevant.

A level 17+ wizard can do a total, perfect, rebuild of any individual even if said individual has been destroyed as thoroughly as possible. It's a pain in the ass and fairly high cheese but its doable.

Almost perfect is orders of magnitude cheaper and easier though.

Red Rubber Band

2013-10-02, 07:44 PM

Gods, whether through Epic Spells or Divine Salient Abilities, can recreate someone from scratch exactly as they were in life, down to their feat selection and the color of their hair. It's very relevant.

See, your last post didn't indicate any of this which is why I was questioning its relevance. :smallannoyed:

At the risk of a 50 page argument, the question is whether they would truly be "petitioning" at that point.

Indeed.

A level 17+ wizard can do a total, perfect, rebuild of any individual even if said individual has been destroyed as thoroughly as possible. It's a pain in the ass and fairly high cheese but its doable.

Almost perfect is orders of magnitude cheaper and easier though.

Is this something that requires you to Shapechange into a Zodar? :smalltongue:
Do you have a link for this, or a brief explanation?

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-02, 07:53 PM

[QUOTE=Red Rubber Band;16144501Is this something that requires you to Shapechange into a Zodar? :smalltongue:
Do you have a link for this, or a brief explanation?[/QUOTE]

It involved Time Travel, Mind Rape, Ice Assassin, Thought Bottles (multiple such thought bottles), True Mind Switch, a lot of divination's, and some kidnapping.

As I said, a pain in the ass and high cheese.

Red Rubber Band

2013-10-02, 08:37 PM

It involved Time Travel, Mind Rape, Ice Assassin, Thought Bottles (multiple such thought bottles), True Mind Switch, a lot of divination's, and some kidnapping.

As I said, a pain in the ass and high cheese.

:smalleek:

Yeah. That's good enough for me. Hahaha.

rockdeworld

2013-10-02, 09:27 PM

Gods, whether through Epic Spells or Divine Salient Abilities, can recreate someone from scratch exactly as they were in life, down to their feat selection and the color of their hair. It's very relevant.
That doesn't contradict the fact that the person was killed permanently the first time, therefore fulfilling the question of this thread. What you've written is an afterthought. Your comments about epic spells and Miracle were correct though.

On that note, both epic spells and Miracle.

Other ways:
-Pun Pun.
-Mr. Anderson (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121334) wakes up and that person never existed

Psyren

2013-10-02, 09:32 PM

That doesn't contradict the fact that the person was killed permanently the first time, therefore fulfilling the question of this thread. What you've written is an afterthought.

But that's just it - are they really gone permanently if they're alive again? That's the paradox.

Not that I expect a D&D forum to solve a centuries-old philosophical conundrum anyway.

Souju

2013-10-02, 09:53 PM

there's also a mundane solution: torture them until they wish for death, then kill them.
Resurrection spells only work if the target is willing.

Emperor Tippy

2013-10-02, 09:59 PM

there's also a mundane solution: torture them until they wish for death, then kill them.
Resurrection spells only work if the target is willing.

There are methods to bring back the unwilling, or at least make them into the willing. Again a pain in the posterior though.

rockdeworld

2013-10-02, 10:34 PM

But that's just it - are they really gone permanently if they're alive again? That's the paradox.
It's not a paradox, you're just phrasing it wrong. Logic.

Psyren

2013-10-02, 10:57 PM

It's not a paradox, you're just phrasing it wrong. Logic.

"The ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)

Logic.

rockdeworld

2013-10-02, 11:58 PM

are they really gone permanently if they're alive again?
That's the part you phrased wrong.

Gemini476

2013-10-03, 05:48 AM

That's the part you phrased wrong.

To be honest, this is less like the Ship of Theseus (gradual change over time) than it is Star Trek-style teleportation (death and reconstruction of copy).
Both are part of Theseus Paradox however, as far as I know.

On that matter, couldn't you kill someone permanently by using Teleport Through Time to make them never have existed? The Gods are extremely unlikely to be able to reconstruct them then.

It runs into the issue of someone going back in time to stop you when you come to the past and such, but that's pretty much the only way I could think of doing it.

(Maybe go for a Dream of Metal-style universal reset timer?)