What is the essential OOTS? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Spoomeister

2013-09-30, 11:01 AM

I passed on the kickstarter effort due to lack of funds over here. I see a bunch of discussion, update and new material being sent out for it, and I feel like I'm missing out on some important backstory for the main comic.

I know a bunch of the offerings in the kickstarter are supposed to be little side stories or prequels or fleshing-out sorts of things, that are sort of optional... but what little I've skimmed of kickstarter discussion and spoiler'd discussion doesn't sound that way. Put another way: the online comic is definitely enhanced quite a lot if one has read Start of Darkness. It's arguably a very different story, actually, if you don't have SoD's background on Xykon and Redcloak. Are there other stories around like that, on that level?

So apart from the published compilations from SoD onward, and then the online comics from the end of the last compilation to now (#921 as of this writing)... what are the other essential stories? Does one need to go buy the PDFs and other kickstarter offerings to really 'get' some of the background and motivations for some of the characters? Are the OOTS publications in Dragon and similar truly parallel or otherwise non-continuity, or are there some bits there too?

I.e. how much of the non-online comics should be sought out as essential and enhances the main story of OOTS, and how much should be sought out only if one is being completest and obsessive? :smallbiggrin:

JSSheridan

2013-09-30, 11:05 AM

Teh Giant has said the elements essential to the story are available online.

I generally hold off on buying anything until the story's over.

Shale

2013-09-30, 11:06 AM

The only print-exclusive material that's remotely "essential" is Start of Darkness. It goes into depth on where Redcloak and Xykon (mostly Redcloak) came from and what The Plan is.

Copperdragon

2013-09-30, 11:11 AM

SoD is totally essential for reading OotS, I think. It is the best written and best condensed piece of OotS. If you do not have it, you really should buy it.

The kickstarter bonus stories are just that: bonus. They are not really shedding new light on anything and you do not need them. They're entertaining, but that is basically all.

Chronos

2013-09-30, 11:33 AM

The Giant has said that he's making an effort to make nothing but what's freely available online essential. While the bonus material might add more depth, it's his intention to recap anything truly essential, as much as is needed, in the online comic.

So far, he seems to be meeting this goal pretty well. That said, though, Start of Darkness really adds a lot of depth. It's not essential, per se, but it's a really good idea.

Nothing else comes close to that level. On the Origin of PCs is mostly just silly jokes similar to what we saw in the first hundred or so strips, the bonus comics in the compilation books just fill in unimportant gaps, and the backers-only PDFs have so far all been either completely irrelevant (like the Belkar story, which basically consists of Belkar killing a lot of people and things), or even non-canonical (like the Haleo and Julelan story).

NerdyKris

2013-09-30, 12:03 PM

I know a bunch of the offerings in the kickstarter are supposed to be little side stories or prequels or fleshing-out sorts of things, that are sort of optional... but what little I've skimmed of kickstarter discussion and spoiler'd discussion doesn't sound that way. Put another way: the online comic is definitely enhanced quite a lot if one has read Start of Darkness. It's arguably a very different story, actually, if you don't have SoD's background on Xykon and Redcloak. Are there other stories around like that, on that level?

I think you're confused. Start of Darkness and Origin of PCs are not kickstarter bonuses. They were around long before. And they're still available.

The kickstarter bonus PDFs are not available elsewhere as of yet, but they aren't important either. One is a Romeo and Juliet spoof. The other is a short Belkar story that just shows Belkar without the Order forcing him into some semblance of civilized. There's a joke that it shows the origin of his

cloak, but that's just a joke. Not really relevant to anything ever.

How the Paladin Got His Scar isn't out yet, but it might be relevant to Ochuul. We don't know yet. Belkar, and the upcoming Therkla and CPPD prequels are not relevant to the greater story due to the fact that they're backer's choice. They could have been anyone. Rich couldn't have planned any plot points in them because he couldn't have known what they are ahead of time.

The remaining ones are spoofs. One of Dark Sun and another Julio Scoundrel story. Oh, and an Elan and Sir Francois story.

As for Start of Darkness, it's not required, but it greatly enhances your understanding of Redcloak and Xykon. However, any plot points are covered in the strip when they occur. An example of this was the Bozzok's description of Haley's fleeing the thieves guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html) from Origin of PCs. We've already seen from Start of Darkness a reference to what happened to Dorukon. MitD states that he was killed outside the mountain "last year" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).

So they aren't necessary. Yes, it means readers who have it already know a lot of little details about Redcloak's past, but Rich has stated that he will recap anything when it comes up in the online comic.

edit- Actually, I just realized the Haleo and Julian story spoils both Tarquin and Ian. I guess if there ever is a compilation book, one would need to state that it shouldn't be read until after whatever this current book is named.

ChristianSt

2013-09-30, 12:25 PM

I really don't know where you got the impression that the Kickstarter stuff could be essential.

First of all is the question what is essential in the first way. At least from that what Rich said the truly essential part is the online strip.

But I agree that the next most essential after that would be SoD, not even close.
The next one would be a combination of the regular books (1+) and OtOoPCs. The bonus strips therein and the content of OtOoPCs add nice little extra bits, the two more important thinks I can remember right now are:
The Prophecy about Durkon returning homeSangwaan mentions that Belkar will save Hinjo twice - but the Playground isn't sure whether that has already happened or not
and the sequence of rescuing Roy's body (which makes the Haley's killing of Crystal more understandable).
After that I would put SSaDT - nearly nothing therein can be considered essential (maybe someone could argue that the StickTales are stories which are told from the main cast in the main story (happening while sailing to the Western Continent, between 672 and 673) or that Julio Scoundrel has a story, which is a character which might appear again).

So now the question: Where do the Kickstarter stories come in?
Since there only two that are released as of know, it is somewhere hard to tell, but I would rank them between SSaDT and OtOoPCs:

Uncivil Servant, starring Belkar Bitterlead [2/21/13]: It is some part of Belkar's past, but nothing happens that tells really more about him.
StickTales: Haleo and Julelan [8/15/13]: Exactly as essential as the StickTales in SSaDT (The frame now is two hours before the formal dinner with Tarquin, between 741 and 742)
Backer's Choice (CPPD) [TBA]: I can't imagine this to be essential.
Backer's Choice (Therkla) [TBA]: The same - maybe we learn something about Kubota, but since he is dust, it shouldn't matter.
Julio Scoundrél [TBA]: Continuing where SSaDT left and from the "What happens next" this should be really hilarious - but again, nothing essential.
It's more thrilling sky pirate action as Virginia and I find ourselves caught between the Flying Submarine of Doctor Obstreperous and the Broomstick Gang of Peculiar Peak! Can I keep those crazy witches off of my ship long enough to unlock the secret of the not-so-good doctor's Possibility Eraser? Can I rescue Virginia when she's taken captive by the cabal's secret benefactor?... And what does all this have to do with the search for the Cosmic Soupcan?? Find out in the next exciting issue of Julio Scoundrél!
Dim Sun [TBA]: Something probably on par with the 4E War in SSaDT
Sir Francois and the Dragon (featuring his herald, Elan!) [TBA]: This could tell us something about Elan
How the Paladin Got His Scar [TBA]:
this tale tells the story of how Azurite soldier O-Chul first joined the Sapphire Guard and includes appearances by many of the other Azurite characters from the online comic. I worked out the basics of this story for last year's Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales book, but it ended up being too long to include. If the drive is successful, I'll go back, finish it, and release it to everyone who makes the minimum pledge as a digital file.
I think this will be the most essential story from the Kickstarter, but I don't think it will be more essential than OtOoPCs

Also maybe relevant is the length of the stories: Haleo & Julelan clocks in at whopping 25, while Belkar's is at 12 (the other Backer's stories should be somewhere around Belkar's - while I think How the Paladin Got His Scar was announced around 20)

So while I would certainly encourage anyone to pick them up when they become available (as I would encourage picking up all bocks), they certainly not essential (at least from the information we have).

Sir_Leorik

2013-09-30, 12:46 PM

Everything that's really important from either OtOoPCs or SoD has been alluded to in the online comic. Of the two, I feel SoD is the more essential. Everything in Haley's backstory appeared in the online comic (the extortion letter from Miron, her father being imprisoned, her rivalry with Crystal, leaving the Thieves' Guild, Hank being a mostly decent Halfling). Eugene Greenhilt's backstory is fleshed out mostly in SoD, not OtOoPCs, though we get to see just how awful Roy and Eugene's relationship was while they were both alive in both books. Elan's backstory in OtOoPCs is cute, but not as essential as the parts told in the online comic. Durkon's story in OtOoPCs contains major spoilers. Belkar's backstory is not revealed in OtOoPCs at all, and V's backstory is barely touched on.

By contrast, SoD has major events that impact the main storyline.

Snips, Snails & Dragon Tales has no bearing on the main story's continuity, nor do the Gygaxian magazine strips. As for the Kickstarter comics, I've heard that they will be collected in print form in the future, after The Giant finishes them, of course.

hamishspence

2013-09-30, 12:55 PM

Snips, Snails & Dragon Tales has no bearing on the main story's continuity,
That said, the Julio Scoundrel tale at least may have "really happened in-universe".

And the party really were telling tales to each other on the ship (that spoofed a few well-known ones).

NerdyKris

2013-09-30, 12:56 PM

By contrast, SoD has major events that impact the main storyline.

And at several points have been brought up in comic, as I pointed out one. Lirian's gate is another, indirectly stating Xykon and Redcloak were responsible for it's destruction. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) At the point that:

Right Eye is directly relevant to the plot, as opposed to part of Redcloak's past, he will likely be explained. At this point, for those not reading, he's just a mystery yet to be revealed.

As well as the fate of certain characters. We can tell from all the previously listed examples that this will be recapped in comic when, if ever, it occurs.

The exact circumstances of Xykon killing Fyron (sp?) and Eugene's Oath of Vengeance are at this point irrelevant. We received the necessary details already. Except, of course, for that mysterious son mentioned in the dungeon and while on the back of the zombie dragon, yet:

wasn't in the sequence in SOD.

Reddish Mage

2013-09-30, 02:21 PM

If you want to enrich your story experience, Start of Darkness hands down will change your perspective of important parts of the comic. After that, OtOoPCs is very funny, and it tells new stories about your favorite characters, it adds some perspective when reading about Roy's college days or especially, Haley's experience in Greysky city, but not to the extent Start of Darkness goes deep into the motivation and personalities of the villains.

Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails, had me rolling on the floor laughing deep belly laughs in inappropriate places. Get it. It's a different continuity but it will enrich your life. You NEED to read Stick Tales and Invaders from the Fourth Edition before you can truly appreciate what Rich can do with our heroes.

F.Harr

2013-09-30, 03:49 PM

NerdyKris

2013-09-30, 05:09 PM

The only print-exclusive material that's remotely "essential" is Start of Darkness. It goes into depth on where Redcloak and Xykon (mostly Redcloak) came from and what The Plan is.

I just realized, the plan was already described in detail in the online comic as well. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) The only part left out was a foregone conclusion, that

if the Snarl destroys reality, then the Dark One simply takes part in the creation of world 3.0. It won't have a surprise attack this time, because the Dark One would know the ritual was being cast and could simply flee to the outer plans like the other gods did before.

Assuming, of course, that the Snarl is what Shojo and Redcloak were told it is by their respective benefactors.

Sloanzilla

2013-09-30, 06:28 PM

This thread just inspired me to order Start of Darkness. Looking forward to it.

Kilo24

2013-09-30, 09:34 PM

I guess that I'd classify OOTS's content into two major foci: wacky hijinks/jokes/parodies and serious character/plot development. Start of Darkness is unique among the non-online-strip material in that it strikes a balance between the two foci similarly to the online strip, and Redcloak's character development is among the best the whole strip has to offer. Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails and the Kickstarter parodies are pretty much entirely the first focus. I would say that the rest of the material (the bonus strips in the main books + On the Origin of PCs) is probably about 80% wacky and the remainder is focused on character development (with the golem's castle bonus story in Don't Split the Party advancing the plot too). There are some good bits in there (I do like Lord Shojo's funeral), but the golem castle plot is the only part I'd consider important.

This is not counting the author commentaries which really help to understand the whole series and are an excellent addition to the books.

So, let me join the majority of posters here in saying that the essential OOTS consists of the online strip plus Start of Darkness.

137beth

2013-09-30, 10:39 PM

There's also the strips in DstP that show the Haley vs Crystal stuff--
from the online strips only, it looks like Haley was committing unprovoked murder against Crystal, going back on the "deal" made with the guild.

From the bonus strips, the deal was already broken, Bozzok and Crystal were still trying to kill Haley in spite of the truce, and Haley was acting in self defense.

On the other hand, if you read that spoiler box, you now know pretty much everything you need to know from DstP that isn't online.
SoD is still essential, though. You do find out a little about the Plan in strip 830, but there is a lot more story and exposition in SoD.

ti'esar

2013-09-30, 11:24 PM

I would actually say that SOD probably isn't necessary either if you're not terribly interested in why Xykon and Redcloak are who they are, because everything that's directly relevant to the online plot is supposed to come out when it's necessary. For instance, we have the already-mentioned example of 830 and the Plan. And while not everything about the Plan is revealed there, I suspect the rest will appear before or when it becomes important.

Jay R

2013-09-30, 11:25 PM

If an essential story is one that adds significantly to one's enjoyment of the strip, then I am forced to conclude that all of it is essential.

Gift Jeraff

2013-09-30, 11:51 PM

The only really essential material outside of the main comic, IMHO: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/Incentives.html

Spoomeister

2013-09-30, 11:54 PM

littlebum2002

2013-10-04, 09:57 AM

The Belkar story is essential if you want to know how he got his cloak.

NerdyKris

2013-10-04, 11:01 AM

The Belkar story is essential if you want to know how he got his cloak.

That's not really "essential". At that point, you might as well start asking for the essential story of how Roy got his boots, or Vaarsuvius got his robes. Calling it essential is misleading people who haven't read it into believing they're missing something when they aren't.

For the record of anyone wanting to know:

He bought it with the 25 gold he received for killing an Ankheg. So really, completely meaningless and not at all essential.

Sloanzilla

2013-10-04, 12:02 PM

none of your arguments, and holy crap you apparently feel strongly about it not being essential, counter his/her statement that it is essential if you want to know how he got his cloak

NerdyKris

2013-10-04, 01:55 PM

none of your arguments, and holy crap you apparently feel strongly about it not being essential, counter his/her statement that it is essential if you want to know how he got his cloak

I am stating that calling it essential implies something that doesn't exist. Given that this thread started with a person believing the Kickstarter rewards were required to understand the story, you can see why I feel the need to counter vague statements that can lead people to the exact conclusion the opening poster made.

Jay R

2013-10-07, 10:13 AM

NerdyKris

2013-10-07, 11:05 AM

"It is essential" does not mean the same thing as "It is essential if you want to know X."

All arguments that it is not essential are completely irrelevant to his statement that it is essential if you want to know how Belkar got his cloak.

You can argue against him by saying that nobody wants to know how Belkar got his cloak (and I agree with you), but the statement that "it is essential if you want to know how Belkar got his cloak" remains completely true.

Okay. But the problem is, as I've pointed out, silly statements that the story of how he got his cloak (or in this case, the one panel) is in any way relevant to anything at all causes people to think they're missing out on crucial parts of the story. It would be like saying "We need the essential story of how Nale got his wand of enervation." The answer would be "He bought it". Yes, that statement is "essential" to the question. But not in the way this thread was asking.

I'm not arguing that some people don't think it's essential for some nebulous reason. I'm arguing against statements that mislead other readers into thinking there's things they've missed.

For another example, one person once described the books as having "hundreds" of pages of bonus content each. A complete fallacy that would only result in a very upset buyer if they went off that statement.

Misrepresenting the content of the bonus materials is doing a disservice to readers who don't have it. It leads to a lot of people thinking that things exist when they don't. Belkar's bonus story is not essential to the plot of the strip in any way, shape, or form. It's just more of Belkar.

Squark

2013-10-07, 11:42 AM

The only thing that really stands out as missing is the Haley-Crystal interaction. Origins and SoD aren't essential... At least not to the finished Oots product. Everything in there, will be discussed in time.

Let me explain. You know how, when you're writing a story, you flesh out a character's backstory far more than is ever going to show up in the story? But what if you really want to tell those stories? Well, you could do what Tolkien did, and compile all those stories into a huge alegorical mythology that you'll never quite finish before your death. You could also go the George Lucas route and create the Star Wars Prequels. What SoD (And to a lesser extent, Origins) are is something of a hybrid. They tell the stories of the characters in greater detail, to a degree that would detract from the overall narrative if you put them in the comic (Sure, Start of Darkness is great. But could you imagine a 60-page flashback when it's finally time for Redcloak to reveal his past? Especially given that said flashback would almost certainly come within the last pages of the comic?). But they still had the potential to be good stories, and Rich decided he wanted to write them.

Of course, the fact that Oots is a webcomic, and that SoD and Origins were published long before the comic finished, complicates things a bit.

So, in short, no, Origins and Start of Darkness are not required reading for OOTS at all. But, they allow us to better recognize the foreshadowing leading up to the reveals of the information in the book (hints at the prophecy involving Durkon, for instance). And they're good reads. That too.
Also, you can learn little, pointless trivia answers like, "Why do they call it the Order of the Stick?" And trust me, it is, in fact, pointless.

EDIT: One thing I will say, though, is that Origins is very good for getting a look at the people the order used to be, in contrast to who they are know. Like, compare Roy in recent strips to :roy: "... The rogue is ambitious and greedy, the ranger is a complete psychopath, the wizard is trigger-happy and never stops talking, and the bard is as dumb as a box of moldy carrots!"

Kish

2013-10-07, 01:39 PM

The only thing that really stands out as missing is the Haley-Crystal interaction. Origins and SoD aren't essential... At least not to the finished Oots product. Everything in there, will be discussed in time.
Mm...

This strikes me as leading to, "The essential OotS is the final compilation book Rich publishes, when he publishes it. Only. It will recap everything that has come before it."

I'm sure that's true. And in the same way, seeing exactly how Redcloak's current relationship with Xykon develops from the beginning is not necessary to know what it is now, and purely-online readers will certainly learn everything they need to know about Redcloak's brother for Redcloak's motivations to make sense. But I think anyone who just gets the last compilation so that they can know the summary of the story is making a mistake, and I think any OotS reader who doesn't read Start of Darkness is making a mistake.

Reddish Mage

2013-10-07, 03:07 PM

I have to accept SoD is important reading and essential to anyone who wants to claim to be a hardcore fan, but I think that you life is far less Rich without reading Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails.

kabukiman1973

2013-10-09, 04:58 PM

I finished reading SOD. It's excelente but also very sad. Now I'm waiting for Origins.

Belril Duskwalk

2013-10-09, 05:57 PM

Not owning "On the Origin of the PCs" would mean missing out on some Important sexy content. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html)

In all seriousness though, that provides a good example of Rich's policy to limit the amount of information not available in the online comic.

I would say Start of Darkness adds a LOT of depth to what's going on behind the scenes between Xykon and Redcloak. Rich has revealed what "The Plan" really entails and Redcloak's deception of Xykon. But there's more that hasn't shown up online yet.