[PF] Bonus from Threefold Aspect

[Barstro]

Threefold Aspect
TL;DR version

Range personal
Target you
Duration 24 hours (D)
You may change between these three aspects or your actual age as a standard action;
1) +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Wis
2) +2 Wis, +2 Int, -2 Dex
3) +4 Wis, +4 Int, -2 Str, -2 Dex

Full version
School transmutation; Level druid 5, witch 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components S, F (silver crescent worth 5 gp)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 24 hours (D)
Threefold aspect allows you to shift your appearance between your natural age and three idealized age categories: young adult (youth/maiden), adulthood (father/mother), or elderly (elder/crone). In each case, your appearance is your own at the appropriate age, rather than that of a new individual.

You may change between these three aspects or your actual age as a standard action. As the young adult, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Constitution, but suffer a –2 penalty to Wisdom. In the adult aspect, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom and Intelligence, but take a –2 penalty to Dexterity. As the elderly aspect, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom and Intelligence, but take a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. As enhancement bonuses, these stack with any bonuses or penalties you may have from your actual age (which are untyped bonuses)—the bonuses granted by this spell represent your idealized form in this threefold aspect rather than simply duplicating your ability scores at any one particular age.

If used with Extend metamagic, can this result in extra spells and/or skills for a Witch?

Arguments against;
No, the form can be changed at any time, so the bonus isn't as permanent as a headband.
No, that would allow a spell to create additional, greater spells. That's like wishing for wishes. Stop bothering me.
No, that's not what the spell was designed to do.

Arguments for;
Yes, after 24 hours and as long as you keep "renewing it" before it runs out.
Yes, same as above, but you lose some or all bonus spells if you change forms and lose Int.
Yes, but only after 24 hours and until the spell is cast again (cannot "renew", each casting can last only up to 48 hours).

I found a discussion on Paizo about this, but it quickly went onto other topics and was 30 months ago. Curious if there is anything more RAW known. I don't think that it can grant additional spells or skills, but I want to be certain.

Thanks.

[magotter]

Arguments for;
Yes, after 24 hours and as long as you keep "renewing it" before it runs out.
Yes, same as above, but you lose some or all bonus spells if you change forms and lose Int.
Yes, but only after 24 hours and until the spell is cast again (cannot "renew", each casting can last only up to 48 hours).


I suppose the question is based on how you look at durations, and whether or not it makes the bonus permanent or temporary. For reference, the definitions: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-)

Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Now, I'm gonna say no, and I'm gonna base it on how Extend Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/extend-spell-metamagic---final) is written:

Benefit: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat.

Level Increase: +1 (an extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.)

All emphasis mine.

It may be a bit of hair splitting, but it says that the spell lasts twice as long, not that it's duration is twice as long as before. A case could be made to suggest, then, that Threefold Aspect's duration is still 24 hours, not 48, and therefore it's a Temporary Bonus, not a (temporarily) Permanent Bonus.

As a complete aside, let's have a thought experiment and assume it would work; you still wouldn't get too far. Going from X to X+4 in a casting stat will provide to more bonus spell slots. However, if you're casing this every day to maintain it, you're effectively losing one 4th or 5th spell slot to keep it. I'm sure there's easier ways to more permanently gain slots.

All the same, an interesting find, and a great way to gain versatility for a good duration

Edit: grammar cleanup.

[Barstro]

It may be a bit of hair splitting, but it says that the spell lasts twice as long, not that it's duration is twice as long as before. A case could be made to suggest, then, that Threefold Aspect's duration is still 24 hours, not 48, and therefore it's a Temporary Bonus, not a (temporarily) Permanent Bonus.
That is some fine rules lawyering. I need to digest that a bit more.


As a complete aside, let's have a thought experiment and assume it would work; you still wouldn't get too far. Going from X to X+4 in a casting stat will provide to more bonus spell slots. However, if you're casing this every day to maintain it, you're effectively losing one 4th or 5th spell slot to keep it. I'm sure there's easier ways to more permanently gain slots.
But, it needs to be cast only ever other day. Thus, a net gain.

The main reason I'll be casting it every day (since I agree with the "no bonus spell" argument and I will not get a rod of extend) is that until I get a +6 headband, this is a pretty easy way to help spell and Hex DCs. Plus, the roleplaying opportunities are great (going from hottie to hag).

[magotter]

That is some fine rules lawyering. I need to digest that a bit more.


But, it needs to be cast only ever other day. Thus, a net gain.

The main reason I'll be casting it every day (since I agree with the "no bonus spell" argument and I will not get a rod of extend) is that until I get a +6 headband, this is a pretty easy way to help spell and Hex DCs. Plus, the roleplaying opportunities are great (going from hottie to hag).

Kind of like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zANV9XNwfE4&t=1m52s

regardless, The stat bonus is good, conditionally, but I don't know if it's a keeper. A +4 Enhancement at around level 9 to 11 (since it's using a 5th or 6th slot) might be a bit early, but I'd say that in a "joe normal" campaign you should be nabbing the item equivalent of same somewhere between 8 and 12.

Like I said before, a benefit, but probably not a long standing one. The item should be in your grasp soon, and while learning the spell won't set you back too much, I can just think of a lot of other spells I'd rather fill my day with (especially as a tree hugger: Move Earth, Antilife Shell, or even level 5's Control Winds)/

[Dapple Birch]

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Personally I would interpret using an extended threefold aspect as granting the permanent bonuses after the first 24 hours, and thus allow you to reset and have additional slots to prepare during the second 24 hours. However if you ever switched to a different aspect during the spell this would reset all of the ability bonuses to temporary until another 24 hours had passed. Additionally I would rule that recasting this spell resets the ability bonuses to temporary, meaning you could get bonus slots every other day by casting this spell every 48 hours.


All of this is borderline cheesy as it probably goes again the intent of the spell(constant permanent bonuses for 5g a day obviously would be cheese).

It goes without saying that you should get your DM's opinion before planning any trick that you have doubts was intended by the designers.