"I attack the dungeon"

[Nettlekid]

A five foot cube of rock, such as what you would need to destroy in order to move one square into what was just a brick wall, has 900 HP, and hardness 8. What kind of non-caster character build could you use to have attacking the walls of a dungeon in order to carve your own path be a legitimate tactic in your dungeon crawl? Of course a caster could just Stone Shape their way through, but there's something more amusing about a brute bashing down the entire labyrinth.

Because of the Frenzied Berserker talk going on, I was thinking a Frenzied Berserker with a couple of levels of Bloodstorm Blade, so that with a charge, they can attack all the walls within reach, including the newly exposed wall from the shattered wall? At level 20, the static damage for each attack just from Power Attack would be 20*(4 (FB)+1 (Leap Attack))*(1 (Headlong Rush, let's say you're an Orc)+1 (Rhino's Charge from an at-will item)+1 (Valorous Weapon))=300 per attack. That feels like not a lot. Although I've never quite understood if Leap Attack just added a +1 to the multiplier or outright doubled the ratio of damage:penalty. If it outright doubles it, then each attack does 480, which is better but still feels like not a lot. I guess a Dragonborn Orc could dive down first with a piercing weapon and add another to the multiplier, giving 640 per attack? With Pounce and Haste that could be five attacks each turn, so factoring in Hardness but not counting the actual weapon and Str damage, you can deal ~3000 damage to the stone and chisel away ~3.5 five foot cubes of rock each turn.

What else could you do to reliably carve through a dungeon?

[Malimar]

Races of the Dragon has rules for Profession(Miner) checks, which allow tunneling through walls.

[Zubrowka74]

A (dwarven) mining crew, perhaps with adamantine picks ?

EDIT: Swordsaged!

[Nettlekid]

Okay, although technically true, I meant more along the lines of something you can do to get through the walls in rounds, not weeks.

[Red Fel]

Tome of Battle, Ancient Mountain Hammer maneuver.

Attack the wall, deal 12d6 damage to the wall, overcoming DR and hardness.

Wait a moment to recharge maneuvers. Do it again.

Repeat until the dungeon is a fine powder. Or has collapsed on your head.

[BRC]

Okay, although technically true, I meant more along the lines of something you can do to get through the walls in rounds, not weeks.

A 20th Level Dwarven Mining Crew with +5 Adamantine Wallbane Picks.

[Equinox]

What else could you do to reliably carve through a dungeon?Since he's ECL 20, an item of Dimension Door is well within his WBL, and the entire question is moot. Would have been a lot more interesting if the same challenge was posed for, let's say, a level 4 character.

[Nettlekid]

Since he's ECL 20, an item of Dimension Door is well within his WBL, and the entire question is moot. Would have been a lot more interesting if the same challenge was posed for, let's say, a level 4 character.

I did say "non-caster," and the implication is that I'd prefer the problem not to be circumvented by spells. If they boost the power of the attack, like Rhino's Rush, then that's okay, because it's not the spell that's doing the wall-removing. But an item of Dimension Door or Stone Shape just removes the issue, and that's no fun.


Tome of Battle, Ancient Mountain Hammer maneuver.

Attack the wall, deal 12d6 damage to the wall, overcoming DR and hardness.

Wait a moment to recharge maneuvers. Do it again.

Repeat until the dungeon is a fine powder. Or has collapsed on your head.

See, that's way too slow. Ancient Mountain Hammer may ignore hardness, but does an average of 42 damage per use. Assuming you're using it every other round, it'll take 42 rounds (what a coincidence) to break down one 5 ft cube of wall. Nowhere near effective enough.

[Azoth]

I can't help but feel a Goliath barbarian(mountain rage+spirit lion totem)1/dungeoncrasher figher6/warhulk10/xx3 could do this easier with the STR check to just bust it open instead of going through its HP.

masonry only has a break DC of 45 at best and 35 normally. The absolute worst is natural unworked stone at 65.

[Nettlekid]

I can't help but feel a Goliath barbarian(mountain rage+spirit lion totem)1/dungeoncrasher figher6/warhulk10/xx3 could do this easier with the STR check to just bust it open instead of going through its HP.

masonry only has a break DC of 45 at best and 35 normally. The absolute worst is natural unworked stone at 65.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Factotum 3 fills in those last levels well to get Int to your Str check, if you have a half-decent Int. But would this only apply to a wall that was a certain thickness and was sure to have a passage on the other side? If so, then it still wouldn't really let you march through and make your own path unless your DM allowed you to Str Break chunks of the wall at a time.

[Shining Wrath]

I did say "non-caster," and the implication is that I'd prefer the problem not to be circumvented by spells. If they boost the power of the attack, like Rhino's Rush, then that's okay, because it's not the spell that's doing the wall-removing. But an item of Dimension Door or Stone Shape just removes the issue, and that's no fun.



See, that's way too slow. Ancient Mountain Hammer may ignore hardness, but does an average of 42 damage per use. Assuming you're using it every other round, it'll take 42 rounds (what a coincidence) to break down one 5 ft cube of wall. Nowhere near effective enough.

That's 42 above and beyond the damage done by the normal attack of the Warblade. And this is a good time for Power Attack. Give me a 20th level Warblade with a two-handed weapon with pluses and enhancements, I'll be hitting that wall for over 100 every other round. So, 18 rounds, less than two minutes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So this would be a bad time to point out the utility in a simple Disintegrate spell? Removes a 10' cube of whatever is in your way...

Or, at level 20...

WhirlPounceBarian/Warblade with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack and Valorous weapon...

Just in the BAB bonuses alone, you'll be getting 120 damage per swing for five swings. Use an Adamantine weapon, get some size boosts... you're going through that wall in one round. Easy.

Just don't forget to shout "OH YEA!" when busting through...

[BRC]

So this would be a bad time to point out the utility in a simple Disintegrate spell? Removes a 10' cube of whatever is in your way...
Yes it would. The prompt specified "Non Caster".

If we wanted to use casters we would just Stone Shape for 10 cubic ft+1 per level as a 3rd level spell.

[Segev]

A rough outline of the build my friend made that had a 20 ft. burrow speed through adamantine included Barbarian, Monk (I think he shifted out of Lawful to Chaotic alignment after taking the monk level(s)), Frenzied Berserker, and Exotic Weapon Master. The latter and the monk levels combined on a special monk weapon that is a half-moon blade on one end and a weighted club-thing on the other to give him slightly more than 2x full iterative standard attacks per full attack. Plus Haste and the like for just a few more. He had the various feats that let you sacrifice AC for Power Attack and maximized the pay-off for doing so. He also relied on the fact that nowhere did it say that AC could not be less than zero, so he plummetted his AC to the negatives for whatever limits DID apply (I think the BAB limit still applied), and did something like 3 or 4x the drop out of his AC in extra damage.

[Invader]

That's 42 above and beyond the damage done by the normal attack of the Warblade. And this is a good time for Power Attack. Give me a 20th level Warblade with a two-handed weapon with pluses and enhancements, I'll be hitting that wall for over 100 every other round. So, 18 rounds, less than two minutes.

Yeah this is pretty good for tunneling through solid stone and it doesn't require any ridiculous attack sequence to pull off.

[Story]

If we wanted to use casters we would just Stone Shape for 10 cubic ft+1 per level as a 3rd level spell.

Or Summon Nature's Ally III to get a Thoqqua.

Probably the best noncaster method is to just grab a Lyre of Building and start strumming away. Of course that's still a magic item.

[inuyasha]

Through the ceiling: quaals feather token tree

through a locked door: quaals feather token tree underneath the door

through a wall, quaals feather token tree in a small crack

Need I go on


P.S. this is the best way to go through a wall :)

[Fax Celestis]

I'm a big fan of using the d2 Crusader.

Play an awakened small viper. Your bite attack will deal 1d2-2 damage. Couple with Aura of Chaos (your damage dice add and reroll if you roll maximum damage) and couple with Luck Devotion (if your roll is under average (1.5 for a d2), make it average and round up (so, 2)). You now have infinitely exploding damage dice for your bite attack.

Name yourself GALACTUS DESTROYER OF WORLDS and bite the wall of the dungeon.

[Uhtred]

Isn't one of the Titan weapons designed to help a bit with this? The Maul of the Titans or the Mattock? Something something bonus damage vs. Stone fortifications and buildings? Afb at moment, sorry

[Vaz]

Anything with Power Throw, add on Cancer Mage with Festering Anger. The longer it takes, the quicker it will be.

[OldTrees1]

Do you really need to clear the whole volume (900hp 10ftx10ftx5ftdeep)?

If it is only half your space's width then you take merely 50% speed, -4 AC and -4 Attack penalties.

2.5ft = 30inches
15hp per inch of stone (10ftx10ft) (or 3.75hp per 5ftx5ftx1inch)
112.5hp to make it easily squeezable* for a medium creature.

But why not make it easier still? A Slight Build Kobold counts as a tiny creature (2½ ft.) for the purposes of squeezing. So they only need a gap that is 1.25ft wide to squeeze easily*.

56.25hp per 5ft of travel through a stone wall for the Slight Build Kobold.

*Easily squeezable does not require an Escape Artist check and gives a penalty to attack (thus explicitly permitting attacking).

This is all without taking shorter height into consideration (or reduce person if the kobold is non dragonwrought).

If the kobold is reduced via reduce person then they qualify as Diminuative for squeezing. (90hp for a 0.5ft by 5ft by 5ft section) Again before considering that the height of the kobold is now 1-2ft and treated as 0.5-1ft.

Assuming that reducing the height of the hole has the same effect on the hp as reducing the width:
A reduce person slight build kobold would make a 0.5ft wide by 1ft tall by 5ft deep hole with a mere 4.5 damage.

[bekeleven]

Anything with Power Throw, add on Cancer Mage with Festering Anger. The longer it takes, the quicker it will be.

I was going to suggest hulking hurler, but perhaps we should combine efforts.

Hulking hurler cancer mage can destroy the dungeon wall by throwing the other wall at it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm a big fan of using the d2 Crusader.

Play an awakened small viper. Your bite attack will deal 1d2-2 damage. Couple with Aura of Chaos (your damage dice add and reroll if you roll maximum damage) and couple with Luck Devotion (if your roll is under average (1.5 for a d2), make it average and round up (so, 2)). You now have infinitely exploding damage dice for your bite attack.

Name yourself GALACTUS DESTROYER OF WORLDS and bite the wall of the dungeon.

.... I must try this.

[Azoth]

The DCs listed abover were for busting through 1ft of masonry. It is still easy enough to just keep on busting through.

[Jack_Simth]

A five foot cube of rock, such as what you would need to destroy in order to move one square into what was just a brick wall, has 900 HP, and hardness 8. Minor nitpick:
That 900 hp is for a 10x10 segment for the typical thickness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/obstacles.htm#walls) (10x10x5 for 'unhewn stone'), not a 5x5x5 cube. It doesn't significantly impact anything you're saying, however, so it's definitely a minor nitpick

I'm a big fan of using the d2 Crusader.

Play an awakened small viper. Your bite attack will deal 1d2-2 damage. Couple with Aura of Chaos (your damage dice add and reroll if you roll maximum damage) and couple with Luck Devotion (if your roll is under average (1.5 for a d2), make it average and round up (so, 2)). You now have infinitely exploding damage dice for your bite attack.

Name yourself GALACTUS DESTROYER OF WORLDS and bite the wall of the dungeon.
You don't need the awakened small viper bit. A halfling/gnome/other small character with Improved Unarmed Strike, a gauntlet, or a light shield will do just fine (all of those deal 1d2 damage by default for a Small character; there are things that can change that - being a monk would change the Improved Unarmed Strike damage, for instance). If you're willing to go smaller than Small, you've got a lot more options.

[Manly Man]

I'm a big fan of using the d2 Crusader.

Play an awakened small viper. Your bite attack will deal 1d2-2 damage. Couple with Aura of Chaos (your damage dice add and reroll if you roll maximum damage) and couple with Luck Devotion (if your roll is under average (1.5 for a d2), make it average and round up (so, 2)). You now have infinitely exploding damage dice for your bite attack.

Name yourself GALACTUS DESTROYER OF WORLDS and bite the wall of the dungeon.

Fellow d2 Crusader fan here. I once did this with a Crusader that used a pair of adamantine chopsticks (we ruled that they did 1d2 piercing) for battle like this. The dragon didn't take him seriously until his chest caved in from having one of them driven into his side.

Really, the dragon just stared at him, absolutely confounded by his ballsiness, and was like, "What is this I don't even OH SHI-" *dead*

Level thirteen build, kills tarrasques like they're kobolds. :smallbiggrin:

[Deophaun]

If we wanted to use casters we would just Stone Shape for 10 cubic ft+1 per level as a 3rd level spell.
Which is a lot of castings of stone shape, considering that a 5-ft square of stone contains 125 cubic feet. Do you play many games where players have a CL of 115?

[Jack_Simth]

Level thirteen build, kills tarrasques like they're kobolds. :smallbiggrin:If you hit Mr. T with that, he's not technically dead, but he's not ever going to get back up without something akin to healing by drowning, as he just soaked infinite nonlethal damage....

[OldTrees1]

Minor nitpick:
That 900 hp is for a 10x10 segment for the typical thickness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/obstacles.htm#walls) (10x10x5 for 'unhewn stone'), not a 5x5x5 cube. It doesn't significantly impact anything you're saying, however, so it's definitely a minor nitpick

Thank you for this correction (I had made the same mistake but it was more relevant for my calculation)

A reduce person slight build kobold would make a 0.5ft wide by 1ft tall by 5ft deep hole with a mere 4.5 damage.

[Callin]

I made an ecl 7 called Gigantor (with 1 3rd party template) that was Huge had a 50+ str and a Burrow Speed of 20.

He ate dungeon walls

[Fax Celestis]

You don't need the awakened small viper bit.

I know I don't, but I enjoy having the infinite damage come from a bite attack.

[Manly Man]

If you hit Mr. T with that, he's not technically dead, but he's not ever going to get back up without something akin to healing by drowning, as he just soaked infinite nonlethal damage....

Well, it's a hundred and twenty gold pieces for two adamantine chopsticks (unless you count them as full-on weapons, in which case they're still, at the very most, only six thousand), and a ring of three wishes with one wish left is thirty-two thousand, six hundred and fifty gold pieces, and the starting wealth of a level thirteen character is one hundred and ten thousand. Even if you were to charge the price of a full ring and both chopsticks as entire weapons, it's affordable.

Just about as RAW as the wound in the tarrasque's backside. :smallbiggrin: I keep visualizing the shockwave from it being like the end of the Chris and Harry video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y4QtlZUdjU), when Chris lands a kick after running down a mountain.

[Nettlekid]

Do you really need to clear the whole volume (900hp 10ftx10ftx5ftdeep)?

If it is only half your space's width then you take merely 50% speed, -4 AC and -4 Attack penalties.

2.5ft = 30inches
15hp per inch of stone (10ftx10ft) (or 3.75hp per 5ftx5ftx1inch)
112.5hp to make it easily squeezable* for a medium creature.

But why not make it easier still? A Slight Build Kobold counts as a tiny creature (2½ ft.) for the purposes of squeezing. So they only need a gap that is 1.25ft wide to squeeze easily*.

56.25hp per 5ft of travel through a stone wall for the Slight Build Kobold.

*Easily squeezable does not require an Escape Artist check and gives a penalty to attack (thus explicitly permitting attacking).

This is all without taking shorter height into consideration (or reduce person if the kobold is non dragonwrought).

If the kobold is reduced via reduce person then they qualify as Diminuative for squeezing. (90hp for a 0.5ft by 5ft by 5ft section) Again before considering that the height of the kobold is now 1-2ft and treated as 0.5-1ft.

Assuming that reducing the height of the hole has the same effect on the hp as reducing the width:
A reduce person slight build kobold would make a 0.5ft wide by 1ft tall by 5ft deep hole with a mere 4.5 damage.

I think this is my favorite answer so far, though I've always been a fan of the d2 Crusader. Would never allow one, but I like the idea. But yeah, this is brilliant. If you make that Kobold a Frenzied Berserker Bloodstorm Blade all the things I said above, then with enough range you could just plow through a mountain and run into the hole next turn. This proves that Kobolds really are the best miners.

[Manly Man]

Give him adamantine armor spikes on his shoulders and have him charge into the wall. You'll have a kobold-shaped hole from one side to the other, which makes me think of Roger Rabbit at about three feet high.

EDIT: Or about one foot high, with the Diminutive size.

Which is, in turn, hilarious.

[Nettlekid]

Give him adamantine armor spikes on his shoulders and have him charge into the wall. You'll have a kobold-shaped hole from one side to the other, which makes me think of Roger Rabbit at about three feet high.

EDIT: Or about one foot high, with the Diminutive size.

Which is, in turn, hilarious.

Brilliant, although I don't think he'd be able to attack beyond his square, so he charges, attacks the square he's in (being that small, no reach) and has now run out of movement. But the image is great.

[Pickford]

What else could you do to reliably carve through a dungeon?

Hrm, a level 20 monk has adamantine fists which ignore hardness, and assuming a +10 str mod and +5 enhancement would do 17-35 x 5 (85-175) per round, this means ~5-10 rounds per 5' square (or 30-60 seconds per 5').

I assume someone who bothered to optimize could make that faster than 30 second per 5'...but that sounds pretty fast in concept (I mean...for a human being)

[Manly Man]

Brilliant, although I don't think he'd be able to attack beyond his square, so he charges, attacks the square he's in (being that small, no reach) and has now run out of movement. But the image is great.

I think there's a feat that lets you push enemies aside when you charge at them, but I could be wrong on that. Rule that the wall is your enemy (cats are like that with doors, a kobold hating walls isn't TOO much of a stretch), and when you smash into it, you push the bits that you're smashing into out of the way.

[Erik Vale]

Subd...
I think said Kobold is going to feature in a game of mine sometime, that's just classic.

[Ezekiul]

Isn't one of the Titan weapons designed to help a bit with this? The Maul of the Titans or the Mattock? Something something bonus damage vs. Stone fortifications and buildings? Afb at moment, sorry

The maul of the titans is a +3 greatclub that deals triple damage to objects for only 25k. Make it adamantine for the extra cost so to break a 5ft cube of solid stone you'd only have to do (540/3) 180 damage in one round. Easily done by someone with power attack.

[Thrawn183]

Just to throw out an utterly baseline character to help with further conversation:

Fighter 20, Str 16 +5 level +5 inherent +6 enhancement, +5 adamantine warclub, weapon spec., G. weapon spec., power attack.

He swings 5 times per round for 1d8+65 or an average of 347.5 damage per round, requiring three rounds to deal out the required 900 damage.

Pretty much every party should have someone at this level capable of going through walls this quickly.

[Pickford]

Just to throw out an utterly baseline character to help with further conversation:

Fighter 20, Str 16 +5 level +5 inherent +6 enhancement, +5 adamantine warclub, weapon spec., G. weapon spec., power attack.

He swings 5 times per round for 1d8+65 or an average of 347.5 damage per round, requiring three rounds to deal out the required 900 damage.

Pretty much every party should have someone at this level capable of going through walls this quickly.

Where does he get the 5th swing?

edit: Fax: Oh, he didn't account for it is why I asked.

[Fax Celestis]

Where does he get the 5th swing?

Haste or haste-likes.

[DSmaster21]

PF

I instituted a rule that would make this even harder. We had a player who liked to sunder everything so I used real life physics to shut it down a bit. I set it up so that anything you try to smash or break can deal damage back. Since the wall is immobile and tough enough to get hit without breaking it would deal equal damage back to the weapon.

[Slipperychicken]

PF

I instituted a rule that would make this even harder. We had a player who liked to sunder everything so I used real life physics to shut it down a bit. I set it up so that anything you try to smash or break can deal damage back. Since the wall is immobile and tough enough to get hit without breaking it would deal equal damage back to the weapon.

So... wouldn't that mean any non-fatal hit would result in damage dealt to the weapon?

[Deophaun]

I instituted a rule that would make this even harder. We had a player who liked to sunder everything so I used real life physics to shut it down a bit. I set it up so that anything you try to smash or break can deal damage back. Since the wall is immobile and tough enough to get hit without breaking it would deal equal damage back to the weapon.
Did you use real life physics to shut down the wizard as well? Fireballs from nothing violates the laws of thermodynamics, you know.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Did you use real life physics to shut down the wizard as well? Fireballs from nothing violates the laws of thermodynamics, you know.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. You aren't creating a fireball from nothing, you are expending energy (in the form of magical energy) to create heat. The material component of bat guano and wax is sufficient to be the igniting material for a very brief fireball.

It is no different than using electricity to generate heat by running it through a material with a low conductivity.

[SiuiS]

Thank you for this correction (I had made the same mistake but it was more relevant for my calculation)

A reduce person slight build kobold would make a 0.5ft wide by 1ft tall by 5ft deep hole with a mere 4.5 damage.

Unfortunately, the gist of damaging walls is that the entire surface (10'x10'x whatever the base thickness is) is 100% intact until it takes enough damage to destroy all of it. Kind of like you're 100% fine as long as you've got 1 HP left?

Whether any DMs play it that way is probably debatable though.


Hrm, a level 20 monk has adamantine fists which ignore hardness, and assuming a +10 str mod and +5 enhancement would do 17-35 x 5 (85-175) per round, this means ~5-10 rounds per 5' square (or 30-60 seconds per 5').

I assume someone who bothered to optimize could make that faster than 30 second per 5'...but that sounds pretty fast in concept (I mean...for a human being)

Monks get Adamantine and Magic and all that for damage reduction only, don't they? It's a very clear point for some reason that they aren't benefiting from anything other than bypassing DR, silly as that is.


PF

I instituted a rule that would make this even harder. We had a player who liked to sunder everything so I used real life physics to shut it down a bit. I set it up so that anything you try to smash or break can deal damage back. Since the wall is immobile and tough enough to get hit without breaking it would deal equal damage back to the weapon.

That's why you use adamantine. Its "overcome DR less than it's hardness" is a nod to that, and specifically overcomes reverse energy. You also increase N objects hardness by its magic markup, so a +5 Adamantine weapon would have to take 101 damage in a single shot (half damage to objects from effects, then overcome hardness of 25) to do anything at all.

Hmm. Actually, I'm not sure if objects take half damage from all sources anymore. It's been a while since I cared. My damage over time formula has always been "sufficient damage, trust me" or "all the time in the world".


I wouldn't necessarily say that. You aren't creating a fireball from nothing, you are expending energy (in the form of magical energy) to create heat. The material component of bat guano and wax is sufficient to be the igniting material for a very brief fireball.

It is no different than using electricity to generate heat by running it through a material with a low conductivity.

I dunno. It's evocation, so really you're paying the concept of fire to flash someone, more than converting anything.

It is a world where "fire" is a legitimate inclusion on the periodic table and both positive and negative currents not only come from parallel realities but are shot into the world by guys who really, really like their religions.

[Slipperychicken]

magical energy

And we all know that magic is more plausible than breaking walls with swords, right?

[OldTrees1]

Unfortunately, the gist of damaging walls is that the entire surface (10'x10'x whatever the base thickness is) is 100% intact until it takes enough damage to destroy all of it. Kind of like you're 100% fine as long as you've got 1 HP left?

Could you site that so I can learn more? (I do think I will continue to allow players to attack smaller sections but I want to see the rules and extrapolate there purpose)

Anyways assuming it is true then you would want to attack the section that is 6 inches wide by 10ft deep by 10ft tall = 6x15hp = 90hp per 10ft for the reduced slight build kobold. This remains much easier than the 900hp per 10ft for the 5ft wide by 10ft tall hole.

[bekeleven]

And we all know that magic is more plausible than breaking walls with swords, right?

Hey man, the guy at the gym can't break a wall with a sword, but I bet he could shoot fireballs if he were a wizard.