View Full Version : Why isn't Tarquin a good guy?
DiamondHooHaMan
2013-09-30, 05:11 PM
okay this sounds daft, but why would Tarquin use his knowledge of story mechanics to run a good empire. he knows fully well that heroes, villians, treasure, adventure, destiny and all that wonderful stuff is as much a rule as physics right? well shouldn't he know that his plan would work better being a good guy?
because right now he has "it might end in a hero turning up and killing me" yes? well if he was good then he should logically think "well a villain might overthrow me one day" and have the same acceptance of the idea, BUT shouldn't he realise that if his kingdom is overthrown and he lives that there will be no end to the amount of heroes willing to fight and die to get his kingdom back for him? perhaps even without a real promise of a reward too. it seems that really if he is willing to die at the end of a long and sucesful rule of a kingdom? that he should have really thought things will work better on the other side of the alignment scale.
heck allies are easier to make and rely on when both sides are good too, there is less StarScream type situations for the light.
yes he is evil. but I think if he really wanted too he could pull off not killing people for petty reasons. he wouldn't like it. but he could stop.
so am I missing something? or am I making sense?
yes he is evil. but I think if he really wanted too he could pull off not killing people for petty reasons. he wouldn't like it. but he could stop.
so am I missing something? or am I making sense?
I think you're missing something. Specifically, I think you've greatly underestimated how petty and vicious Tarquin is and how important it is to him that no one denies him. If he stopped, it would mean accepting that if he wants to marry a woman it's also necessary that she want to marry him. Accepting that if his sons want lives separate from him, they get to have them. Accepting...all sorts of things he would rather die than accept, and doesn't have to accept as long as he behaves like Tarquin.
DiamondHooHaMan
2013-09-30, 05:23 PM
I think you're missing something. Specifically, I think you've greatly underestimated how petty and vicious Tarquin is and how important it is to him that no one denies him. If he stopped, it would mean accepting that if he wants to marry a woman it's also necessary that she want to marry him. Accepting that if his sons want lives separate from him, they get to have them. Accepting...all sorts of things he would rather die than accept, and doesn't have to accept as long as he behaves like Tarquin.
oh. right. crap. yeah I guess I really didn't consider that did I? you're completely right.
so is there a prize for Kish winning a thread in its first post?
Gift Jeraff
2013-09-30, 05:24 PM
Because he likes being evil.
Hiro Protagonest
2013-09-30, 05:24 PM
Because he can either be a villain and do whatever the hell he wants until his premature death and then gain infamy, or he can be a hero and live a terrible long life or die before he gets famous.
The_Weirdo
2013-09-30, 05:24 PM
oh. right. crap. yeah I guess I really didn't consider that did I? you're completely right.
so is there a prize for Kish winning a thread in its first post?
*Gives Kish an Internet*
Obscure Blade
2013-09-30, 05:25 PM
Specifically, I think you've greatly underestimated how petty and vicious Tarquin is and how important it is to him that no one denies him. If he stopped, it would mean accepting that if he wants to marry a woman it's also necessary that she want to marry him. Accepting that if his sons want lives separate from him, they get to have them. Accepting...all sorts of things he would rather die than accept, and doesn't have to accept as long as he behaves like Tarquin.Yes. It's like he said here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html), the tyrant gets to "live like a god" for decades; good kings not so much.
Dr.Epic
2013-09-30, 06:21 PM
Good point. Because good guys always win and live, and bad guys are always punished and lose. Just look at Game of Thrones- Oh!:smalleek::smallfrown:
archon_huskie
2013-09-30, 06:38 PM
Or in Universe, look at Azure City.
Hiro Protagonest
2013-09-30, 06:43 PM
Good point. Because good guys always win and live, and bad guys are always punished and lose. Just look at Game of Thrones- Oh!:smalleek::smallfrown:
...Except he's not basing his genre savviness on a variant of Dark Age politics.
Dr.Epic
2013-09-30, 06:52 PM
...Except he's not basing his genre savviness on a variant of Dark Age politics.
Doesn't change the fact in a lot of stories good guys die (pointlessly) and evil jerks get to live and go unpunished.
johnbragg
2013-09-30, 07:25 PM
okay this sounds daft, but why would Tarquin use his knowledge of story mechanics to run a good empire. he knows fully well that heroes, villians, treasure, adventure, destiny and all that wonderful stuff is as much a rule as physics right? well shouldn't he know that his plan would work better being a good guy?
Nope. Good guys have to fight, scrape, struggle, scale mountains and earn everything by the slimmest of margins.
Bad guys get to have all the fun while twirling their mustaches and laughing diabolically.
Think how long it took Elan and Haley to get together. In that time frame, Tarquin most likely raped, married, got tired of and disposed of multiple women.
In stories even more than in real life, crime pays. As a bad guy, he gets to, quote, "live like a god." As a good guy, he has to earn it.
mimhoff
2013-09-30, 07:29 PM
How many great stories are there about benevolent rulers?
As he says, a story needs a villain, why shouldn't it be him? Being a villain is is clearly better! He gets to have all the scenery-chewing fun in the meantime while the heroes struggle. True, the bit where he loses at the end sucks, but he's accepted that.
rbetieh
2013-09-30, 07:42 PM
okay this sounds daft, but why would Tarquin use his knowledge of story mechanics to run a good empire. he knows fully well that heroes, villians, treasure, adventure, destiny and all that wonderful stuff is as much a rule as physics right? well shouldn't he know that his plan would work better being a good guy?
Actually, Tarquin most likely gets to pretend he's a good guy from time to time. The plan involves 3 empires, two of which gang up on a weaker kingdom, the third liberates he kingdom after conquest. Then, to re-balance the empires, they topple the patsy emperors and switch partners/roles. It seems very likely that he and Malak sold themselves as Neutral parties that are just doing a job to the public. Good and bad don't play into it, they are 'just following orders'. So, it is not impossible to believe that at some point in the past, Tarquin was in charge of the "Good" empire.
Roland Itiative
2013-10-01, 07:23 AM
1- Getting in control of a good empire is not as easy. An evil empire is just a matter of amassing an army and conquering territory.
2- He's evil because that's how he is, regardless of his genre savviness. He has fun torturing people for no reason, and is unwilling to drop this hobby.
Morquard
2013-10-01, 07:41 AM
Tarquin is genre savy enough to know that being the "good king" that gets toppled by the "super evil villain" is just a background character in the story of the "hero who comes to free the people". His only purpose would be to be killed, to set the stage for the hero.
That's something Tarquin could never ever accept.
masamune1
2013-10-01, 08:53 AM
Bare in mind that he doesn't actually believe that he will lose per say; he just feels that if he loses it will be worth it. He's not going to just let Elan win or anything. He might even be hoping to win- twist ending.
oppyu
2013-10-01, 09:04 AM
Plus, Tarquin is evil. He doesn't want a genre savvy plan that results in him being a beloved and benevolent ruler who only does nice things. He wants a genre savvy plan which allows him to be a generally despicable human being who will hopefully die a painful and insignificant death very shortly.
Forikroder
2013-10-01, 09:11 AM
Nope. Good guys have to fight, scrape, struggle, scale mountains and earn everything by the slimmest of margins.
Bad guys get to have all the fun while twirling their mustaches and laughing diabolically.
Think how long it took Elan and Haley to get together. In that time frame, Tarquin most likely raped, married, got tired of and disposed of multiple women.
In stories even more than in real life, crime pays. As a bad guy, he gets to, quote, "live like a god." As a good guy, he has to earn it.
plus the good king has to like cut back on his standard of living during poverty to help the populace
Jay R
2013-10-01, 09:15 AM
He didn't decide to be evil. He *is* evil.
He decided to be effective.
F.Harr
2013-10-01, 09:19 AM
He didn't decide to be evil. He *is* evil.
He decided to be effective.
Also, if he weren't evil, this would be one boring sub-plot.
kabraxis
2013-10-01, 01:07 PM
Also, Darth Vader is much more badass than Luke Skywalker.
I think he mentioned quite a while ago (can't remember which strip and I might be mistaken) that the people prefer the villains anyway because they're cooler
hamishspence
2013-10-01, 01:09 PM
That would be this strip:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html
How many great stories are there about benevolent rulers?
Quite a lot, actually, but the good, wise and benevolent ruler is invariably in trouble and needing rescue from some dire situation. (See: Shojo, Lord.) That's why there's a story.
It's only the evil, oppressive, wicked rulers who get to live in comfort and style for most of their time.
Scow2
2013-10-01, 07:10 PM
Quite a lot, actually, but the good, wise and benevolent ruler is invariably in trouble and needing rescue from some dire situation. (See: Shojo, Lord.) That's why there's a story.Or, the Good king gets outright bumped off by a treacherous villain, who then gets to live like a king... and it's not the king, but his killer and eventually the guy who overthrows the killer that get immortalized in legend.
LtNOWIS
2013-10-01, 07:31 PM
Quite a lot, actually, but the good, wise and benevolent ruler is invariably in trouble and needing rescue from some dire situation. (See: Shojo, Lord.) That's why there's a story.
It's only the evil, oppressive, wicked rulers who get to live in comfort and style for most of their time.
Yeah, or the benevolent ruler's country is destroyed by the forces of evil, forcing the protagonist to carry on the fight without that "home base" to support them.
gerryq
2013-10-01, 07:37 PM
okay this sounds daft, but why would Tarquin use his knowledge of story mechanics to run a good empire. he knows fully well that heroes, villians, treasure, adventure, destiny and all that wonderful stuff is as much a rule as physics right? well shouldn't he know that his plan would work better being a good guy?
Well, it was okay for Shojo - but good kings often have to be self-sacrificing.
Also, he had to get an empire in the first place, and you don't do that easily by being good.
Harbinger
2013-10-01, 07:46 PM
Tarquin's logic is "I get to live like a god for thirty years, so what if I get killed in the end?"
Good guys, while they almost invariably win, have to suffer constantly to make that satisfying. To be Good, you have to put others before yourself, something Tarquin just doesn't do.
AKA_Bait
2013-10-02, 12:56 AM
Let's also not forget that not all of the good guys triumph in the end. At Tarquin's age he's now far more likely to be the mentor figure who dies in way that motivates the hero than he is to be the triumphant hero.
mig el pig
2013-10-02, 02:30 AM
How many great stories are there about benevolent rulers?
Gilgamesh en Enkidu
Arthur Myth
ti'esar
2013-10-02, 02:50 AM
Honestly, I think some of this is missing the point. I strongly suspect this whole attitude of "find the story that makes things best for me and warp everything else in my life to match it" that Tarquin has is inherently Lawful Evil, and it's definitely not Good either way. Even if he was trying to play the good guy, he'd still be a narcissistic monomaniac.
Tarquin is far too obnoxious with his perpetual rambling about what makes a good story to ever become a good guy.
Clove
2013-10-02, 12:05 PM
I don't know why anyone else hasn't said this yet, but why wouldn't Tarquin turn good at some point? Imagine the story potential there, and imagine it as an effective alternative to dying at the hands of the hero.
But in order for Tarquin to do it, it would have to be dramatic in order to make up for the future lack of fun that being good would entail. By postponing the conversion for as long as possible, he maximizes his own benefit.
But he wouldn't be able to tell anyone this, because it would diminish the shock and drama of the event.
Elan would have to initiate the conversion by denying his father's "total evil-ness" at some point, in order to build the drama.
Tarquin has been totally evil up to this point though, allowing no doubt as to his evil nature.
Unless...
Tarquin could call off his army's attack to give Elan a hint of a non-evil nature. While Tarquin is certainly not good, it seems he is evil because it allows for the most drama and extravagance in action. What could be more extravagantly dramatic than lighting hundreds of slaves on fire just to make some pretty lights?
Could he do anything more provocative by being neutral or good? No he could not. But now that he has been established as thoroughly evil, the most provocative thing he could do is demonstrate some character depth. Especially when not changing makes him more like Nael than a dynamic character.
Joe the Rat
2013-10-02, 02:41 PM
Let's also not forget that not all of the good guys triumph in the end. At Tarquin's age he's now far more likely to be the mentor figure who dies in way that motivates the hero than he is to be the triumphant hero.
Heh, that'd be one way to send him packing.
Elan: "I get it now. All this fighting and stuff has made me realize how important adhering to narrative structure truly is, and how it will lead to inevitable victory. With a new team, I will be so much better prepared to deal with Xykon and his meanie take-over-the-world plot. Thanks, dad."
Tarquin: "You're welcome. I'm happy that you finally see-"
Elan: "Yes - and you're the one that showed me. Not only are you my father, but you're also now my... mentor"
Tarquin: :eek: "Laurin! Open the wormhole! Open the wormhole!"
Yeah, like Tarquin couldn't argue his way out of that.
Mike Havran
2013-10-02, 05:20 PM
I don't know why anyone else hasn't said this yet, but why wouldn't Tarquin turn good at some point? Imagine the story potential there, and imagine it as an effective alternative to dying at the hands of the hero.
But in order for Tarquin to do it, it would have to be dramatic in order to make up for the future lack of fun that being good would entail. By postponing the conversion for as long as possible, he maximizes his own benefit.
But he wouldn't be able to tell anyone this, because it would diminish the shock and drama of the event.
Elan would have to initiate the conversion by denying his father's "total evil-ness" at some point, in order to build the drama.
Tarquin has been totally evil up to this point though, allowing no doubt as to his evil nature.
Unless...
Tarquin could call off his army's attack to give Elan a hint of a non-evil nature. While Tarquin is certainly not good, it seems he is evil because it allows for the most drama and extravagance in action. What could be more extravagantly dramatic than lighting hundreds of slaves on fire just to make some pretty lights?
Could he do anything more provocative by being neutral or good? No he could not. But now that he has been established as thoroughly evil, the most provocative thing he could do is demonstrate some character depth. Especially when not changing makes him more like Nael than a dynamic character.That would be much appreciated (by me, at least), but I don't think the story is going to go that way - simply because Tarquin did too much ugly stuff to be granted a sort of a redemption arc. People just want to watch him burn :smalltongue:
martianmister
2013-10-03, 03:43 PM
Being good is hard, being evil is easy.
DarkLadyNyara
2013-10-03, 10:49 PM
yes he is evil. but I think if he really wanted too he could pull off not killing people for petty reasons. he wouldn't like it. but he could stop.
That's the sticking point right there.
Tarquin is rather remarkably selfish, petty and narcissistic. And being "good" (to say nothing of being a good ruler) requires sacrifices that he isn't willing to make.
Heh, that'd be one way to send him packing.
Elan: "I get it now. All this fighting and stuff has made me realize how important adhering to narrative structure truly is, and how it will lead to inevitable victory. With a new team, I will be so much better prepared to deal with Xykon and his meanie take-over-the-world plot. Thanks, dad."
Tarquin: "You're welcome. I'm happy that you finally see-"
Elan: "Yes - and you're the one that showed me. Not only are you my father, but you're also now my... mentor"
Tarquin: :eek: "Laurin! Open the wormhole! Open the wormhole!"
Yeah, like Tarquin couldn't argue his way out of that.
*narrowly avoids bathing monitor in Cherry Coke*
davidbofinger
2013-10-04, 05:05 AM
Gilgamesh en Enkidu
Arthur Myth
Gilgamesh at the start of the story was ... well, not malevolent, but caused trouble. He gets character development when he hangs out with Enkidu.
Arthur went nuts on the subject of the grail and ruined everything, but sure, by D&D standards he's lawful good.
Harun al-Rashid is described as benevolent but will execute people for no good reason.
Richard Lionheart is lawful good, probably a paladin, but I guess in Robin Hood his brother is de facto king.
The kings of Beowulf are admirable.
Jay R
2013-10-04, 10:06 AM
Why isn't Tarquin a good guy?
Because labels like "good" and "evil" are just words. Words with many possible capitalizations.
Because they're outdated concepts that do nothing but cause conflict.
Because what he's trying to do here is move beyond those ideas into a world where no one has any reason to fight one another.
Because you can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others.
And because the rules of drama tell us that such tyrannies can exist--indeed, MUST exist--and persist long enough that no one realistically thinks that they can be defeated. Else, where's the drama in a hero opposing them? And if such kindgoms are necessary, why shouldn't he rule one?
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