Force Missle Mage

[Invader]

Can you make Force Missile Mage viable without fell drain, fell frighten, and fell weaken. I've seen other builds and advice but almost every one includes the above feats. Can you make magic missile something you actually want to use above really low levels?

[Emperor Tippy]

No.

Without those metamagics it's just very low direct damage that allows SR and can be neutralized entirely with a low level spell.

[Edge of Dreams]

The problem is, just about anything you can do to improve Magic Missle, such as Empower, Maximize, Twin Spell, etc. can just as easily be applied to other, more efficient spells. The various Fell effects work well because they apply a stacking effect on each individual missile, rather than just improving the overall damage of the spell.

[Hamste]

You can do some pretty funny things with force missile mage, twin spell, repeating spell, quicken spell and meta reducers. Of course it still is subject to spell resistance and even though the obvious solutions to it are fixed it is still not the best use of power. Also those spells tend to raise the spell level quickly even with the reducers.

[tyckspoon]

You can make a Magic-Missile-centric Mailman, but it's not really doing anything that other spells can't also do (although from a special effects/character coolness perspective, exploding a dude with 30 Magic Missiles from a single casting action is pretty satisfying.) The Fell metamagics take advantage of Magic Missile to apply those effects in ways other direct-damage spells aren't as good at.

[Keld Denar]

I houseruled this to full casting for my girlfriend's sorceress. The rest of her spells are all BC, buffs like Haste, and other stuff. She mostly just uses it for finishing off foes who are locked down in BC that are still too risky to approach for our party BSF (who's a Dwarven Duskblade with a glaive). Its not THAT much more powerful than straight sorcerer, which while being rather bland, is still a fully functional T2 work of art.

Is it bad? Not really. Especially if the DM allows it to be full casting. Is it great? No. Is it Incantatrix? No way. Does everyone want to play an Incantatrix? No.

Just don't get too much tunnel vision to the point where MM is all you cast and you'll be fine.

[Psyren]

Bring in Isaac's Missile Storm from NWN; 40d6 force damage no save.

[A_S]

Bring in Isaac's Missile Storm from NWN; 40d6 force damage no save.
God that friggin' spell ruined NWN PvP.

[Psyren]

God that friggin' spell ruined NWN PvP.

Hey, it's not like NWN/D&D PvP was the soul of fairness and good design without it :smalltongue:

[A_S]

Hey, it's not like NWN/D&D PvP was the soul of fairness and good design without it :smalltongue:
I was going to come up with some kind of response to this but I think I'll just go with "yes."

[herrhauptmann]

You could further buff your FMM with some Argent Savant. It's a prc that focuses on force effects, making them deal more damage and provide more AC.
Not a strong boost for a FMM, but thematic. Should also provide a boost that stacks with Abjurant Champ.

[Invader]

You could further buff your FMM with some Argent Savant. It's a prc that focuses on force effects, making them deal more damage and provide more AC.
Not a strong boost for a FMM, but thematic. Should also provide a boost that stacks with Abjurant Champ.

Yeah but doesn't it give up another caster level?

[RolkFlameraven]

Using the Argent Savant and meta magic you can do some halfway decent damage to a single target but that's about it.

I've played that and it was a hell of a lot of fun, but a lot of that was that fact that he thought that "Force" magic was the only "Real" magic and took every force spell he could. The fact that he was evil might have had something to do with it too. Oddly it was the spell many jaws and not magic missile that that elf is really remembered for though.

Assassinating someone with a quickened, empowered, maximized, twined magic missile, and an empowered, maximized, twined, repeating magic missile does have its appeal though.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah but doesn't it give up another caster level?
Honestly, I don't remember.
If it does, it probably also boosts your CL when casting a force spell. Since you seem to want to focus on FMM, it shouldn't be a problem.


I've played that and it was a hell of a lot of fun, but a lot of that was that fact that he thought that "Force" magic was the only "Real" magic and took every force spell he could. The fact that he was evil might have had something to do with it too. Oddly it was the spell many jaws and not magic missile that that elf is really remembered for though.

Assassinating someone with a quickened, empowered, maximized, twined magic missile, and an empowered, maximized, twined, repeating magic missile does have its appeal though.

Many jaws? Source?
No thundering or fell drain? :D
Streamers isn't a force effect, is it?

[Psyren]

Argent Savant does lose 1 CL
Streamers is not a force effect (damage is untyped)
Manyjaws is in SpC

[Thiyr]

Mixing in heighten and, if you can swing PF material, Rime spell could be a useful trick. add some debuff to the fun once you get Energy missile. Similarly, you could potentially mix in born of three thunders. I'm tempted to toss in blistering spell, but i doubt that actually works, seeing as they need to fail a save, which is normally not present. If you add blistering to Bo3T somehow (energy admixture? ALL THE METAMAGIC!) that could be fun.

[nyjastul69]

Can you make Force Missile Mage viable without fell drain, fell frighten, and fell weaken. I've seen other builds and advice but almost every one includes the above feats. Can you make magic missile something you actually want to use above really low levels?

The answer is yes... and no. It's viable in a low-mid op game, but not in a mid-high op game.

[TiaC]

Knowledge devotion and Lady's Gambit are decent boosts, once your FMM is using Twinned 7-missle spells. It's only +3 damage or so, but when added 14 times it can make a difference.
This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7802) thread has a lot of resources for you

[DeAnno]

It almost goes without saying you want some means of casting quickened True Casting (Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusions, actual Quicken...) or Assay SR if you're going to use Magic Missiles as your workhorse.

You could maybe houserule in it working with Chain Missile from Spell Compendium, which mechanically follows the rules of magic missile right down to being spoofed by Shield. It isn't great, but at least it has twice the base damage at high level and Range:Long going for it (and man you can be a JERK with Range: Long).

With full casting this PRC becomes a lot better. It also becomes better when you combo it with War Mage from Age of Mortals or Abjurant Champion because both of them require Combat Casting as well. War Mage 5/FMM 5 especially is much more acceptable if only because the War Mage damage amps the Magic Missiles into more acceptable territory.

[Thanatosia]

War Mage 5/FMM 5 especially is much more acceptable if only because the War Mage damage amps the Magic Missiles into more acceptable territory.
The War Mage ability to increase damage (Warmage edge) specifically states that it only applies to one missile for magic missile or similar multi-attack spells. A flat +2 - 3 damage to the entire cast isn't gonna do much for MM.

[Invader]

With full casting this PRC becomes a lot bettedamage was so becomes better when you combo it with War Mage from Age of Mortals or Abjurant Champion because both of them require Combat Casting as well. War Mage 5/FMM 5 especially is much more acceptable if only because the War Mage damage amps the Magic Missiles into more acceptable territory.

Why would you ever take 5 levels of warmage? Maybe 1 if warmage edge damage was for every missile but you're taking dead levels basically.

[Zeb]

It is War Mage from Age of mortals

...

NOT Warmage from Complete Arcane

[Invader]

It is War Mage from Age of mortals

...

NOT Warmage from Complete Arcane

Isn't that 3rd party though. If we open up that can of worms we can make any class good.
:smallamused:

[Jalor]

Isn't that 3rd party though. If we open up that can of worms we can make any class good.
:smallamused:

Nope, Dragonlance is actually an official WotC product.

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92329

Arcane Sniper, the final PrC in the first post, might be relevant to this conversation.

[Hammerpriest]

Nope, Dragonlance is actually an official WotC product.

Actually, I'm pretty sure only the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book is First Party. The rest of the books have the WotC rights but I vaguely remember them not being actual WotC products.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, I'm pretty sure only the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book is First Party. The rest of the books have the WotC rights but I vaguely remember them not being actual WotC products.

They are licensed by WotC but created and published by a different publisher.

[Psyren]

They are licensed by WotC but created and published by a different publisher.

No, he's right; the Campaign Setting book was published by WotC, and the others (LotT etc.) were not.

[Fax Celestis]

No, he's right; the Campaign Setting book was published by WotC, and the others (LotT etc.) were not.

Yes, but they were still licensed by WotC.


In 1997, Wizards of the Coast LLC purchased TSR, and licensed Dragonlance to Sovereign Press, Inc in 2001 to produce game materials; this licensing agreement expired in 2007.

[Slipperychicken]

Be a manifester, cast Energy Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm) [sonic] at people? It seems like more or less the same thing.

[WebTiefling]

It might not fit your concept for the character, but you could always go the repeating trap route.

Have a repeating trap of Magic Missile that is triggered toward whatever creature is in front of it whenever someone [S]pulls the trigger triggers the trap.

Have it be able to be set up (on solid ground via a tripod to satisfy the trap description) as a full round action. You can still get a shot spell off since triggering it is a free action.

After that, each activation is a free action. I think I vaguely remember seeing something where there are only three or four free actions allowed per round.

It's a first level spell, and you can have it cast as a 9th level spell for the maximum number of missiles, have the spell be whatever elemental damage type via the feat when created (no level adjustment). If you want to crank it up a bit more, make it Maximized and Twinned. That makes it a 8th level slot, 15th level caster.

Cost is 500*15*1 + 40*15*1 xp. 7500 gp + 600 XP.
(10,500 gp to have someone make it for you)

For a full round action, you're spitting out 30 to 40 missiles of your selected type, so you're doing 120 to 160 plus 15 or 20 damage, split as you like among targets.

You have what is functionally a tripod-mounted machine gun spitting out your homing missiles.

A DM might rule that you have to make ranged touch attacks to have the machine gun trap pointed at your target, but that's an easy thing to beat. For most creatures, the touch AC rarely gets above 14 or 15, usually closer to 11-13. You should hit that 75+% of the time by the time you might get the trap around 9th level. (assuming you've spent at least a little wealth on other stuff)

Of course, as with all magic missile spells, they are negated by a very common 1st level spell, Shield. But, that's the price of having a Magic Missile based wizard.

[Invader]

It might not fit your concept for the character, but you could always go the repeating trap route.

Have a repeating trap of Magic Missile that is triggered toward whatever creature is in front of it whenever someone [S]pulls the trigger triggers the trap.

Have it be able to be set up (on solid ground via a tripod to satisfy the trap description) as a full round action. You can still get a shot spell off since triggering it is a free action.

After that, each activation is a free action. I think I vaguely remember seeing something where there are only three or four free actions allowed per round.

It's a first level spell, and you can have it cast as a 9th level spell for the maximum number of missiles, have the spell be whatever elemental damage type via the feat when created (no level adjustment). If you want to crank it up a bit more, make it Maximized and Twinned. That makes it a 8th level slot, 15th level caster.

Cost is 500*15*1 + 40*15*1 xp. 7500 gp + 600 XP.
(10,500 gp to have someone make it for you)

For a full round action, you're spitting out 30 to 40 missiles of your selected type, so you're doing 120 to 160 plus 15 or 20 damage, split as you like among targets.

You have what is functionally a tripod-mounted machine gun spitting out your homing missiles.

A DM might rule that you have to make ranged touch attacks to have the machine gun trap pointed at your target, but that's an easy thing to beat. For most creatures, the touch AC rarely gets above 14 or 15, usually closer to 11-13. You should hit that 75+% of the time by the time you might get the trap around 9th level. (assuming you've spent at least a little wealth on other stuff)

Of course, as with all magic missile spells, they are negated by a very common 1st level spell, Shield. But, that's the price of having a Magic Missile based wizard.

If you're setting off the trap how exactly are you directing the missiles to attack anything other than yourself?

[WebTiefling]

Have a repeating trap of Magic Missile that is triggered toward whatever creature is in front of it whenever someone [S]pulls the trigger triggers the trap.

Traps are aim-able.

Trigger a trap and instead of targeting you with a Stone to Mud, it targets the room's thin stone floor which is over a pit of ______. Instead of blasting you with a Lightning Bolt, it sends the Lightning Bolt down the long narrow passage leading to it, hitting everyone who might be there.

Two-part trap. Activates a Clay Golem, and then targets the center of the room (optimally filling a room) with an Acid Fog spell.

Same for this trap. Instead of hitting the person who targets it, it targets whatever is in front of it.

[Invader]

Traps are aim-able.

Trigger a trap and in-line, of targeting you with a tone to Mud, it targets the room's thin stone floor which is over a pit of ______. Instead of blasting you with a Lightning Bolt, it sends the Lightning Bolt down the long narrow passage leading to it, hitting everyone who might be there.

Two-part trap. Activates a Clay Golem, and then targets the center of the room (optimally filling a room) with an Acid Fog spell.

Same for this trap. Instead of hitting the person who targets it, it targets whatever is in front of it.

I wouldn't rule it that way, a lightning bolt travels in a straight line, magic missile doesn't. I'd say the missiles target whoever set off the trap.

[WebTiefling]

I wouldn't rule it that way, a lightning bolt travels in a straight line, magic missile doesn't. I'd say the missiles target whoever set off the trap.

DM perogative, I guess.

For me, spells on traps can be targeted at all sorts of different things besides the person who triggers the trap, so I can't see why the Magic Missile would be the sole exception.

[Harrow]

DM perogative, I guess.

For me, spells on traps can be targeted at all sorts of different things besides the person who triggers the trap, so I can't see why the Magic Missile would be the sole exception.

Because it's actually targeted instead of Area of Effect?

[Invader]

DM perogative, I guess.

For me, spells on traps can be targeted at all sorts of different things besides the person who triggers the trap, so I can't see why the Magic Missile would be the sole exception.

Its not DM prerogative. You can't aim traps the way you're describing.

From the SRD:
Damage/Effect
The effect of a trap is what happens to those who spring it.

The effect of the trap targets whoever triggers it not some random direction you try to aim it.

[Bonzai]

My take on it was to go Warforged. Take all the metamagic reducers. Craft 3 wands that are maximized and twinned. One that is also quickened. Have a warforge built in wand sleeve as well. The channel charge feat from Lost Empires of Faerun can preserve these wands so that they are more cost effective.

Warforged Focused Specialist Evoker 3/ Master Specialist 2/Force Missile 5/ Master Specialist 8/ Evoker 2 (Maybe the counter fire class feature?)

Force Missile Mage lets you get up to 7 magic missiles. Twinned that's 14 missiles. Maximized that's 5 damage each for 70 damage cumulative. Activating the rod, that's 3 casts, for 42 missiles dealing a net total of 210 damage. Add on one quickened wand from the wand chamber at that's 280 damage a turn from magic missiles. This can be further ramped up with additional meta magic.